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Thread: The US fragile democracy Exposed

  1. #321

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Think there will definitely be some civil unrest and maybe violence. Talk is cheap, once some start going to prison their boldness will decline. We've had these types of people here forever, it's larger and bolder at this moment but far from a civil war.

    I started thinking about Ireland and how bad that was but they're reasons where much different. Hard to believe we would devolve over "Stop the steal".
    Last edited by wes4dbt; Jan 12th, 2021 at 04:28 AM.

  2. #322
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    Talk is cheap, once some start going to prison their boldness will decline.
    Well lets hope so. A civil war in the US is not good for Americans or the rest of us around the world.
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  3. #323
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Bill Belichick says he won’t accept Presidential Medal of Freedom from Trump
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/sport...al-of-freedom/

    I'm glad to see people and corporations FINALLY stepping up against the Moron in Chief. Belichick's stated reasons are different then what I think but when you give the medal to people like Rush Limbaugh and Dennis Nunes you just shat on it and I wouldn't take anything with that big orange stain on it. If I had received one in the past I would make a public statement giving it back...they are worthless now that Trump spits them out like candy to his "friends".
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  4. #324
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    I think a civil war is inevitable or at least some level of sustained domestic terrorism. However, it doesn't have to happen today. Trump tapped into something. It's something that has existed for a long time now. But what he showed is that it could be mobilized to do some real damage. Trump gave a blue print on how to mobilize that base he tapped. It's only a matter of time before a future leader takes it to the next level. If you want to know exactly what Trump tapped into I recommend you spend a couple hours on 4Chan.org/b/ and Stormfront.org. I've known about this base for years but until the Trump presidency, I had no idea these people could have been tapped to actually makes things happen. I thought they were all bark and no bite, content to just talk nonsense online. Until the recent attacks in the Capitol, I had no idea just how dangerous these people truly were. Mark my words, someone is going to rile them up again in the future.
    I can see why you would think that but I really doubt an outright civil war. Someone already mentioned the difficulty with demographics. A clear line of territory makes wars easier. Also those fringe groups have always been around. People made statements like you have ever since the "real" civil war. Sadly what makes me side with that thought a bit is police joining in with the Trumpites. If the authorities lean towards open rebellion civil war does seem to loom greater. All in all I think the country is safe. What is bad for everyone else is I am almost always wrong
    Last edited by TysonLPrice; Jan 12th, 2021 at 05:13 AM.
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  5. #325
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    Also those fringe groups have always been around.
    I too once believed they were fringe but then Trump won the election. That opened my eyes. Those "fringe" groups had enough numbers to turn an entire election.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

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  6. #326
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    I too once believed they were fringe but then Trump won the election. That opened my eyes. Those "fringe" groups had enough numbers to turn an entire election.
    I don't think the "fringe" won the election. Most republicans are not like that. Misguided but not violent

    GEEZ...right after posting that I saw on the news the FBI warning of attacks in all fifty state capitals. I told you I am almost always wrong...
    Last edited by TysonLPrice; Jan 12th, 2021 at 05:32 AM.
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  7. #327
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    GEEZ...right after posting that I saw on the news the FBI warning of attacks in all fifty state capitals.
    Yep. I honestly recommend anyone who can stomach it should spend some time looking at the far right discussion platforms. It's seriously uncomfortable to read but it'll quickly dispel any doubts you have about what could be coming. While I'm sure that most of the protesters who attacked the Capitol are fairly harmless, there is a hard core that planned that in advance and they're planning more.

    I personally think Shaggy has made the best argument against there being a civil war but it's not the geographic one. A lack of geographic boundaries doesn't prevent a civil war and there are many examples from history that give that the lie. I do think, though, that wen Shaggy identified that these are still largely fringe elements and that the middle hasn't been radicalised, that I agree with.
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  8. #328
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    GEEZ...right after posting that I saw on the news the FBI warning of attacks in all fifty state capitals. I told you I am almost always wrong...
    That's still a long way from civil war. A number of people have said that they expect acts of terrorism but not outright war and that seems most likely to me. The real questions, in my opinion, is how big will those terrorist acts be, how many will there be and who will fail to condemn them.

  9. #329
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    What an orgy of insanity. Seek treatment.

  10. #330
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    I don't think the "fringe" won the election. Most republicans are not like that.
    I think it's more like most republicans don't go on Stormfront, 4Chan or the YouTube comment section making long rants about "race traitors" but they did allow a President who's views and behaviors perfectly align with the guys who do rant to take office. I'd wager that most of them still want to feed their families so they keep their views hidden. The fastest way to get ostracized from mainstream society and lose your job in America is to broadcast how much you hate "brown" people or how you believe holocaust was fake. So instead, this silent majority spoke through their vote for Trump.

    Long before Trump even dreamed of coming to power, I spent a lot and I mean a lot of time reading extreme right nonsense on various extreme right blogs and websites like Stormfront and the Daily Stormer. I am telling you, these guys are your average Trump supporters. It was obvious to me from day 1. When these MAGA meatheads started becoming a thing in the early days of Trump's rise, it was new to the world but it was unmistakable to me. These were the same guys saying the same nonsense I was reading for years online. Everything from their behavior to their rhetoric matched perfectly. The only difference is that the public version of their online behavior was heavily watered down. My guess is so that it would be more palatable to the masses but occasionally a key word or phrase would slip and I would recognize it as being something out of the extreme right. This is more serious than everyone thinks. Mark my words.
    Last edited by Shaggy Hiker; Jan 12th, 2021 at 10:28 AM. Reason: Marked words with Bold tags.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

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  11. #331
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    I think it's more like most republicans don't go on Stormfront, 4Chan or the YouTube comment section making long rants about "race traitors" but they did allow a President who's views and behaviors perfectly align with the guys who do rant to take office. I'd wager that most of them still want to feed their families so they keep their views hidden. The fastest way to get ostracized from mainstream society and lose your job in America is to broadcast how much you hate "brown" people or how you believe holocaust was fake. So instead, this silent majority spoke through their vote for Trump.

    Long before Trump even dreamed of coming to power, I spent a lot and I mean a lot of time reading extreme right nonsense on various extreme right blogs and websites like Stormfront and the Daily Stormer. I am telling you, these guys are your average Trump supporters. It was obvious to me from day 1. When these MAGA meatheads started becoming a thing in the early days of Trump's rise, it was new to the world but it was unmistakable to me. These were the same guys saying the same nonsense I was reading for years online. Everything from their behavior to their rhetoric matched perfectly. The only difference is that the public version of their online behavior was heavily watered down. My guess is so that it would be more palatable to the masses but occasionally a key word or phrase would slip and I would recognize it as being something out of the extreme right. This is more serious than everyone thinks. Mark my words.
    I see some of your point. They are well known Trump "dog whistles".
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  12. #332
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    OK, I marked your words with bold tags. Is that about right?

    This group is there, it's a larger percentage in the west, and they just lost an election because they aren't the majority. I have no doubt that there will be action.
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  13. #333

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Trump finally came out and talked today. Didn't watch it but read about some of his statements. It sounded like his typical crap. I think the Republicans are going to have a hard time convincing people he has "learned his lesson". No one really believed that anyway.

    I'm with Ty on corporate American getting involved being a good thing. Nothing the Dem's or media says will have much affect on the Rep's. But if companies start withholding money, that will get their attention. Hope more companies join in, it will fun watching Cruz and Hawley trying to worm their way out.

  14. #334
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    History repeats itself, what goes around comes around, all those old saws...I'm referring to republicans finally dropping Trump like they did Nixon.

    Liz Cheney, number three in the republican house pecking order, said she is going to vote to impeach Trump, Mitch McConnell is not denying he would be pleased to to see Trump impeached:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/12/u...peachment.html

    Corporations are dropping republicans supporting Trumps coup:

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/10/busin...ons/index.html

    More and more republicans are saying enough is enough. I think they really want to be out from under Trump's yoke.

    I'm sensing a fall like Nixon and a pardon from Pence.

    And I am horribly sad and extremely happy about it at the same time

    Edit Reason:

    This has been my signature since Trump won:

    "Please remember next time...elections matter!"

    I'm thinking of changing it to:

    "Please remember elections did matter!"

    I'm also thinking I'll have my tomb stone engraved with "I finally quit drinking"
    Last edited by TysonLPrice; Jan 12th, 2021 at 06:23 PM.
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  15. #335

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Wow, good for you corporate America. That's a lot more than I had heard of. Those are some major players. Trump may have his cult followers but America runs on money, that's the real power. As I said before, the Rep.'s should use this impeachment opportunity to shed Trump. He is doing major damage to their party.

  16. #336
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    OK, I marked your words with bold tags. Is that about right?
    lol...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    This group is there, it's a larger percentage in the west, and they just lost an election because they aren't the majority. I have no doubt that there will be action.
    They don't have to be the majority but that fact that Trump won an election off them showed me there are way more of these nutcases out there that I ever imagined. There are enough to do some serious damage. They proved that with their attack on the Capitol.
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  17. #337
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    I think they've always been there. What's different is that they can find each other much more easily.

    If you consider the opinions of the population as a bell curve, then there will be people out on the tail ends of the curve. As long as that's all there is, they're no big deal. After all, 1% of 300 million is a pretty large number, but if that 1% is spread relatively evenly through the country, there's not so much they can do. Sure, they can talk to one another, when they encounter one another, but the vast majority of their encounters will not be the 1%. Think of it as particles interacting. Normally, the bulk of the interactions will tend to keep them from gaining speed in any one direction. Currently, they can find one another with ease. An increasing number of their interactions will act to increase the velocity in one direction rather than impede the velocity or alter the direction.
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    An increasing number of their interactions will act to increase the velocity in one direction rather than impede the velocity or alter the direction.
    That sounds like "The winds of change". Maybe Dylan was right: "The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind".
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    For several years now we have been heard reports that right wing radical groups were on the rise and the biggest threat to our country. Now that they have a leader in Trump that is willing to overlook anything as long as they are loyal to him, they have become more visual. The numbers are surprising to me. I still have a hard time believing so many people actually believe the election was stolen, but if you want to believe it, it's easy to find a website that will tell you what you want to hear.

    We'll find out over the next couple of weeks how large their appetite for violence is. Active domestic terrorism is a real possibility. And all it took was a person to light the fire. It had to be smoldering and growing for a long time.

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    then there will be people out on the tail ends of the curve
    I don't feel like this is a tail end on the right though. The majority are probably still decent but those that we would have called extremists 20 years ago now extend a substantial way up the bell curve.

    Roughly half the American public was comfortable with Trump separating children from their parents and putting them in cages. The America of today is not the America of 20 years ago. You guys should be rightly proud of the America of 20 years ago. The America of today, not so much. I really hope you're able to get it back.
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    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    That could well be the case, but people are sheep, whether they like it or not. If there is no reaction, then others will follow. If there is a strong reaction, then others will not follow. I'd say what happens next depends to some extent on how the trials for the rioters turns out. If the charges are all dropped, a whole lot more will be willing to go along next time, and some portion will be willing to go further, next time....and there's always a next time.
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    After all, 1% of 300 million is a pretty large number, but if that 1% is spread relatively evenly through the country, there's not so much they can do.
    I sure hope you're right. But we have to be careful we don't under estimate the percentage.
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  23. #343
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    The numbers get higher each time nothing happens to them. What was abnormal becomes normal when it happens often enough.
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    Roughly half the American public was comfortable with Trump separating children from their parents and putting them in cages.
    I'd suggest that it was more than half:

    In 2019, former Trump administration acting Director of Immigration and Customs Enforcement Thomas Homan confirmed the migrant holding facilities were built during the Obama administration during a panel hosted by The Center for Immigration Studies. The center is a "pro-immigrant, low-immigration" think tank, according to its website.

    "The kids are being housed in the same facilities built under the Obama administration. If you want to call them cages, call them cages. But if the left wants to call them cages, and the Democrats want to call them cages, then they have to accept the fact that they were built and funded in FY ’15, and I was there," Homan said, according to a transcript.
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ue/3413683001/

    A big difference is that some of them support such actions, but just in private. In the daylight they enjoy driving with their virtue signal left on.

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Meanwhile, in the U.K. they've routinely abused legal immigrants for a very long time.

    Abuses against Migrant Domestic Workers in the UK

    Findings

    Interviewees described a wide range of criminal abuses including forced labour; verbal, physical, and psychological abuse; and confinement. Interviewees described employers locking them in the house and giving them only leftover food. They also described having to share a room with children or sleep in the living or storage room, being denied a mobile phone, and having to speak to family in secret or with their employer present.

    The report also documents labour abuses such as excessive working hours, denial of time off, low salaries, and late or non-payment of salaries. The majority of those Human Rights Watch interviewed for this report said they were paid wages which were well below the UK minimum wage.
    And then you need to consider who it was that established and fostered slavery in what later became the U.S.

  26. #346

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Well, only 10 Rep's house members voted for impeachment, out of over 200. Just doesn't seem realistic that 17 of 50 Senators will vote for impeachment. Maybe it's time to focus on first 100 days of then Biden presidency. Unless Mitch signals he has the numbers, not sure what's to be gained by another impeachment defeat in the Senate.

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    Maybe it's time to focus on first 100 days of then Biden presidency.
    That makes sense. No matter how you slice it Trump is "over."

  28. #348

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Well Trump finally put out a video strongly condemning violent protests. I know it's a week late and he is only doing it because he is scared but it just might save some lives. I was glad to see it.

  29. #349
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Maybe it's time to focus on first 100 days of then Biden presidency.
    As I understand it they're not mutually exclusive but it does mean that you wouldn't want to progress it through the Senate for those 100 days because then it would act as a blockage. So you can defer it until Biden's got his house in order and then progress. I don't think that delay is desirable but may be the least worst option.

    This does highlight a fundamental flaw in your system though. It should be possible to remove a sitting president within days because, no matter how bad Trump has been, history teaches us that it's possible for a leader to be far, far worse.

    And while we're about it, a 3 month delay between an election being resolved and power changing hands while a president can happily hand out pardons to anyone and everyone that takes his fancy us crazy. Over here we change power in a day. I appreciate that the logistics over there are more complex and on a different scale but this shouldn't require more than a fortnight at most.

    I'd say what happens next depends to some extent on how the trials for the rioters turns out. If the charges are all dropped, a whole lot more will be willing to go along next time, and some portion will be willing to go further, next time....and there's always a next time.
    I agree with this 100%. This needs to be prosecuted and this is the same argument for following through on the impeachment. I think Mitch McConnell's recent statements has created some momentum in the GOP and, if a few other high profile figures start endorsing impeachment it could be enough to generate enough movement in the Senate for a two thirds vote. I think it's still unlikely but the probability's shifting.

    Well Trump finally put out a video strongly condemning violent protests.
    Believe it or not, there's faint rumblings from the right wing groups that Trump is a traitor for that video. I'd say it's still very much a minority voice in those circles (most believe it's a deep fake, Trump doesn't understand what he's saying, he was being coerced... take your pick) but it just goes to show you how toxic those communities are.
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  30. #350
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Well Trump's presidency has now been immortalised in history and will always be remembered for two impeachments. His place is now assured. The only thing that his trial may now accomplish if he is found guilty is to prevent him from running again for president - which would have been very unlikely now anyhow. Without the second impeachment he would have been relegated to a history footnote - not now.
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Meanwhile, in the U.K. they've routinely abused legal immigrants for a very long time.

    Abuses against Migrant Domestic Workers in the UK



    And then you need to consider who it was that established and fostered slavery in what later became the U.S.
    There is that "what aboutism". Favorite tools of republicans...ignore the point that was made and attack the person that said it.
    Last edited by TysonLPrice; Jan 14th, 2021 at 06:26 AM.
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    Well Trump finally put out a video strongly condemning violent protests. I know it's a week late and he is only doing it because he is scared but it just might save some lives. I was glad to see it.
    But he never said a word about all his lies and incitement since the election. It was forced and meaningless. He gets zero credit from me.
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Without the second impeachment he would have been relegated to a history footnote - not now.
    He isn't going anywhere...he will continue to be a stain on this country until looonnngggg after he is gone.
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    There is that "what aboutism". Favorite tools of republicans...ignore the point that was made and attack the person that said it.
    Translation: "Your relevant objective facts destroy my fragile narrative."

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Translation: "Your relevant objective facts destroy my fragile narrative."
    Another translation could be: Seus fatos objetivos relevantes destroem minha narrativa frágil
    Please remember next time...elections matter!

  36. #356
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Meanwhile, in the U.K. they've routinely abused legal immigrants for a very long time
    I think the two are materially different. We certainly have had some problems with modern day slavery but it's been considered criminal and has been strenuously prosecuted. We didn't make it government policy.

    If you want to discuss that the UK's history in slavery is utterly reprehensible and that we need to do more to acknowledge and deal with it... you'll get no arguments from me there.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill

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  37. #357
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    "Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene, the newly elected Republican from Georgia, took to Twitter Wednesday to announce that she will be filing articles of impeachment against President-elect Joe Biden a day after the inauguration. She said her motivation is to stand up for the 75 million Americans who are "fed up with inaction" in government."

    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/geo...-against-biden

    She is the QAnon supporter just elected by the republicans. You should check her out. Personally I think she is borderline deranged.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-b1786952.html

    Isn't American democracy great?
    Last edited by TysonLPrice; Jan 14th, 2021 at 01:05 PM.
    Please remember next time...elections matter!

  38. #358
    PowerPoster techgnome's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Sigh ...

    #Repeal535 ... #LeaveNoIncumbantBehind

    -tg
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  39. #359
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    That's nothing new. Somebody puts forward articles against pretty nearly every president. I saw one statement that Obama was the first president since Carter NOT to have impeachment referred to the House Judiciary Committee, but it WAS discussed in that committee, so it seems to be splitting hairs. That would mean that you have to go back a long ways to find somebody who didn't have some impeachment push. Totally meaningless.

    However, now that the articles have been passed by the house, the question of whether or not there will be a trial in the senate appears to be moot. Once the articles are delivered to the senate, they are required to conduct the trial. That should be pretty clear to everybody, since there is no way that Mitch McConnell would have allowed the last one to go forwards if there was anything he could have done to stop it.

    So, it will happen. There's some chance that Nancy Pelosi won't deliver the articles right away, which would delay the trial in the senate, but the trial will be happening. McConnell is also making noises about supporting removal, too. I have no doubt that he wants to. He's no idiot. Banning Trump from running in 2024 would be better for his goals so long as he doesn't pay too high a price in 2022 for doing so.
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  40. #360
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    "Banning Trump from running in 2024"

    Maybe he'll be in a state prison by then.
    Last edited by TysonLPrice; Jan 14th, 2021 at 02:46 PM.
    Please remember next time...elections matter!

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