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Thread: The US fragile democracy Exposed

  1. #201
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    I will say that opinion of the rioters yesterday does exist. Was talking to a friend yesterday just when the riot began. I said well looks like Trump got his riot, hope he's happy. My friend who constantly complained about the BLM riots, said It makes me happy. I called him out and said I thought you were against rioting. He's response was amazing, he said "not when it's good people".

    I hope this wasn't the situation with the people in charge of the capitals security.
    If you think about it, modern society is designed around an "Us vs. Them" attitude on a multitude of levels. (Think sports, high school rivalries, religion, race, gender, politics, states, countries, etc.) Pretty sure it's like rule #1 in the book that talks about how to control a society of millions of people. Pit them against each other as much as possible. And, unfortunately, inherently people give the "us" the benefit of the doubt, and castigate the "them".

    Don't let yourselves get caught up in that either. I try not to, but it isn't always easy.

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    Not ignorant, institutionally prejudice. Compare the policing of Left and Right wing demonstrations over the last year. The difference is stark.

    They didn't police the Trump rally because these dangerous anarchists were their dangerous anarchists.
    I don't see that at all. The BLM rioters, not talking about protesters, sometimes were given days of lead way before arrests. Different places had different responses but many places seem to try their hardest to avoid arresting people. Maybe all you see in the UK is gassing and crack downs but it wasn't like that. Why is it your first response, without knowing all the facts, is to blame the American people of racism. Throw out all other possibilities, it has to be racism because all that exists in America are the oppressed and the racist doing the oppressing. Racism exists here, just as it does everywhere. But most Americans are working hard against it.

    I not sure that's how you view things but from your posts that how it seems.

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by OptionBase1 View Post
    If you think about it, modern society is designed around an "Us vs. Them" attitude on a multitude of levels. (Think sports, high school rivalries, religion, race, gender, politics, states, countries, etc.) Pretty sure it's like rule #1 in the book that talks about how to control a society of millions of people. Pit them against each other as much as possible. And, unfortunately, inherently people give the "us" the benefit of the doubt, and castigate the "them".

    Don't let yourselves get caught up in that either. I try not to, but it isn't always easy.
    That's interesting and good advice. Often wonder why some people take the approach of, if you don't think like me then there is something wrong with you or your part of the problem. There are some things I have a "this is right" view but most of life is to complicated to fit that view. But hey, there 330,000,000 different people living here in relative peace. And I choose to believe things will continue to get better. Changes wont happened as fast as some people would like and some people won't want change but it will happen.

    I'm feeling very optimistic today.
    Last edited by wes4dbt; Jan 7th, 2021 at 06:19 PM.

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    The scoops are coming!


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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Something has Trump really scared, yesterday he was telling the rioters he loved them. Today he is turning on them, wonder when he'll run out of people to throw under the bus. Or better, when will people stop believing anything he says.

    https://currently.att.yahoo.com/news...011501284.html

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Why is it your first response, without knowing all the facts, is to blame the American people of racism.
    I didn't. I accused your law enforcement agencies of being institutionally prejudiced. Do you really believe they're not?

    Your law enforcement agencies have spent the last 4 years being told that they and the right wing extremists are on the same team and they've come to believe it. It has come to be reality. The reason they didn't police the "Save America" march is because the institution has become conditioned not to see the far right as a threat. To the degree that, when Kyle Rittenhouse shot someone in the street, not only did the police not immediately pin him to the ground and arrest him, they let him through police lines carrying a live firearm.

    Something has Trump really scared, yesterday he was telling the rioters he loved them. Today he is turning on them
    Now there I'm with you. "We love you" to "You will pay" is quite a shift. I wouldn't count on that tone continuing for long though.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Jan 8th, 2021 at 03:32 AM.
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    You law enforcement agencies have spent the last 4 years being told that they and the right wing extremists are on the same team and they've come to believe it. It has come to be reality. The reason they didn't police the "Save America" march is because the institution has become conditioned not to see the far right as a threat. To the degree that, when Kyle Rittenhouse shot someone in the street, not only did the police not immediately pin him to the ground and arrest him, they let him through police lines carrying a live firearm.
    To my knowledge that's a misrepresentation of the facts. At the time they didn't know he was the shooter and there was many idiots roaming the streets with guns that night. Also I don't feel our institutions are filled with people that feel they are on the same team as right wind extremist. There has been many reports lately stating that the right wing extremist groups pose the most serious threat to our country. Some of these reports have come from government agencies like DHS and FBI.

    There are prejudices in us all, and there is lot more going on besides just black and white prejudices in American institutions.

    I didn't. I accused your law enforcement agencies of being institutionally prejudiced.
    If you want to play a semantics game with yourself, go ahead.

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    If you want to play a semantics game with yourself
    I hardly think that's a semantic game. I said something, you misinterpreted it, I clarified. If I hadn't we'd have been talking past each other.

    To clarify further, the issue at play in the failure to police the Trump rally is not your Law Enforcement Agencies negative association with race, it's their positive association with the far right. That's why the clarification was important.

    I don't feel our institutions are filled with people that feel they are on the same team as right wind extremist
    There we will have to differ.
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    I hardly think that's a semantic game. I said something, you misinterpreted it, I clarified. If I hadn't we'd have been talking past each other.

    To clarify further, the issue at play in the failure to police the Trump rally is not your Law Enforcement Agencies negative association with race, it's their positive association with the far right. That's why the clarification was important.

    There we will have to differ.
    I was going to say, that's a fair response and that I was going to bed. BUT I've had a couple of glasses of wine and can't help myself.

    If all these institutions are full of right wing sympathizers and the majority of rural Americans voted for Trump, how did Biden win? Please be brief. lol

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    BUT I've had a couple of glasses of wine and can't help myself.
    Fair enough. It's 9:30 AM over here so I'm appalled at your behaviour. I might grab one myself though.

    If all these institutions are full of right wing sympathizers and the majority of rural Americans voted for Trump, how did Biden win?
    I don't follow your reasoning here. The first part of that has no bearing on an election, the second part does but I guess "majority of rural Americans" doesn't corelate to "majority of Americans". Biden won because the majority of Americans voted for him.

    Honestly, that question reads like you're digging for a conspiracy theory but I don't get that vibe from you so I'm pretty sure I'm just miss-understanding what you're getting at.


    Edit> It occurs to me that part of our difference may be in the use of the word "full". To be clear, I don't believe every single member of your law enforcement agencies is a secret far right activist - which I guess would constitute "full". I do believe that a significant number of them actually are though, I believe the institutions as a whole have a strong right wing bias and I believe that both of those descriptors can be applied not just to the officers on the ground but all the way up through the leadership hierarchy.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Jan 8th, 2021 at 04:48 AM.
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Are you saying right wing sympathizers are not likely Trump voters? A large number of Americans are part of some part of law enforcement institution (police, prison guards, FBI, CIA, DHS, judges, courts....) which you say align them selves with the right wing. Then add the rural vote. Then add the people that just vote Republican.

    Edit: Ah, you snuck in an edit on me. I find that assessment understandable but still think most are there to do the right thing. It's the bad decisions that get the press.
    Last edited by wes4dbt; Jan 8th, 2021 at 05:11 AM.

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    @wes4dbt, it seems to me that you are being either very disingenuous or very na´ve. I think that a perfect illustration of what FunkyDexter is talking about is the well-known statistic that, in the US, black people are arrested at (I believe) about three times the rate of white people for marijuana usage, despite black and white people actually using marijuana at about the same rate.

    I like to distinguish between implicit and explicit racism and I think that FunkyDexter is talking largely about implicit racism while you are assuming that he's talking about explicit racism. By explicit racism, I mean consciously thinking that black people and/or other races are worse/less than you. It's quite possible that someone might genuinely want to see black people treated equally in society and yet still be more likely to feel in danger if they saw a black person coming towards them on a deserted street at night than if they saw a white person. That would be implicit racism.

    It is my opinion that explicit racism would exist in law enforcement at at least the same rate as in society in general but probably at a higher rate. After all, if you're a gun-loving racist and you see police beating and killing black people with impunity while carrying guns and playing with other military grade equipment, what's not to like. More importantly though, I think that implicit racism would be significantly higher in law enforcement. That's because, while most people don't have to make judgements and decisions about the safety of themselves and others very often, police have to do it all the time. As a result, the implicit racism that lurks in (in my opinion) pretty much all of us is bought to the fore much more. The police have to make judgements on people and groups of people and their judgement seems, in general, to be as follows. If a white person does the wrong thing, they made a mistake. If a black person does the wrong thing, it's because they are bad. That's obviously a generalisation but how else would you explain a statistic like the one I mentioned earlier?

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Ah, you snuck in an edit on me
    Yeah, I have a bad habit of editing every post I write at least a dozen times

    most are there to do the right thing
    Yes and no. I believe most are well intentioned but their biases lead them to take actions we might disagree with. Often these are petty but they add up to a generally oppressive response. Worse that, though, is that those biases lead them to enable and protect the really bad actors. And I think there are enough really bad actors to matter if you happen to be on the wrong side on those biases.
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    To my knowledge that's a misrepresentation of the facts. At the time they didn't know he was the shooter and there was many idiots roaming the streets with guns that night.
    It's not a misrepresentation. He was white. Had he been back, they would have stopped him, confronted him, attempted to disarm him, and in all likely hood, shot him, all before realizing or knowing he was a shooter somewhere else. The fact that there were things going on, including looting, fights, and shootings, and they did nothing to stop and even talk to a civilian who was openly carrying a weapon, who was UNDERAGED too, is simply wrong. It's called white privilege. And it happened again in DC. It's the reason the DC police chief is being sacked, or at least sacking himself, and who knows what's going to happen to the mayor at this point. There's going to be a lot of questions around this. I just hope we get answers and it doesn't get swept under the rug.


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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Just to repeat, I'm not directly talking about racism in this thread (I've kinda flogged that horse to death in other threads) but rather the In group vs the Out group as far as Law enforcement is concerned (I do think that largely corelates to race though).

    What I'm saying is that, if you want to look at why the Trumpists were able to breach the capitol so easily it isn't so much because they were White but rather that they were the In group. They were Trump supporters and Law Enforcement has spent the last four years being trained that the Trump supporters are the good guys (actually, it goes back way beyond that once you start talking about race). You don't have to police Trump supporters because Trump supporters don't threaten the police or American institutions. That's been the implicit rhetoric for the last four years and that informed both the level of policing that was put in place and the often lacklustre response of that policing once everything kicked off, both on a conscious and unconscious level. Of course, that rhetoric turned out to be completely false because, as it turns out, wannabe fascists only respect the institutions of the state while those institutions are supporting their position (who'da thunk it).

    As I said, that's not directly tied to race. Had a bunch of Environmental protesters posted all over social media that they were going to march on the Capitol then turned up armed to the teeth with assault rifles and pipe bombs (gotta love the image of militant environmentalists) the level of policing and the response would have been much greater than we saw on Tuesday. Environmentalists may not be the Out group but they sure as hell aren't part of the In group either.

    If we want to talk about race then you really are starting to discuss the Out group. Imagine what the response would have been if several thousand heavily armed Muslims had marched on the Capitol. The police would not have been taking selfies, that's for sure.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Jan 8th, 2021 at 09:12 AM.
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by OptionBase1 View Post
    Are you really confused? Do you think that, had several thousand Muslims marched on the Capitol, they would have been white? When it's Muslims, they get to exercise their racism and religious bigotry in tandem. Ever heard the term "sand n****r"?

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by OptionBase1 View Post
    A religion is not a race, and a race isn't a religion.
    Where did I say otherwise? I hope you're being deliberately obtuse, because the alternative is less flattering.

    To be clear - I suspect that I speak for FunkyDexter here too, but he can correct me if I'm wrong - the contention is that the animosity toward Muslims is not based purely on religion. I'm no fan of Islam myself - I'm no fan of any religion but it seems to be susceptible to be used for evil more so than most - but I believe that that animosity is amplified by the fact that (in case you haven't noticed) Muslims generally tend not to be white. If they were then, while there would still be issues, they would not be as great as they are. You can disagree with that if you want and that's something we can discuss, but your feigned disbelief that that is what people are talking about in cases like this is disingenuous at best.

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by OptionBase1 View Post
    You didn't, my response was a continuation of Funky's inference of it.
    Where did FD say otherwise? You seem to have inferred something that was not implied.
    Quote Originally Posted by OptionBase1 View Post
    In the footage that I saw of what happened, I saw no indication that any sort of filtering of people was taking place of protesters based on their religion, I would imagine there were members of all faiths present, including Muslims.
    You seem to have missed the point by so much that you've come back around the other side and hit it. The point is that these people were afforded privilege because they were seen as being part of the In group. The point is that, had there been a group of Muslims, or even black Christians, if you want to take the religious aspect out, at the same place and in the same mood, do you think that the Capitol police would have treated them the same way? I very much doubt that they would have been, because such groups would have been perceived as a threat, where this group of almost exclusively white, Christian conservatives were not. That is the point that you seem determined to pretend was not being made.

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by OptionBase1 View Post
    How do you know the group was largely Christian? Is it because of their skin color?
    Maybe you're onto something. Maybe Trump has been pandering to the Christian right all these years for no reason at all and his cult really is a religiously diverse group.
    Quote Originally Posted by OptionBase1 View Post
    Race is implied from religion, and vice-versa, and that's wrong.
    I think you mean "inferred", not "implied". Regardless, to the degree that it matters, the assumption that this crowd was predominantly Christian would be based on the fact that the Christian right is Trump's base and this crowd was predominantly comprised of Trump's base. The point about Muslims, I think, was more about how an already established Out Group would have been treated in the same situation in order to demonstrate that these people were considered an already established In Group. Why do you think that might be? Do you think that other people were also assuming that this group were predominantly Christian and therefore inherently good people who were not a threat?

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by OptionBase1 View Post
    Why can't a group of heavily armed Muslims be white? Because they are heavily armed? Because they are Muslims?

    That is and was my only point all along.
    Then it's a stupid point because of course they COULD be white but what chance that any cause would just happen to unite ONLY white Muslims? The vast majority of Muslims, even in America, are not white. It follows that if a large group of Muslims were going to protest something then they would not be completely or even close to predominantly white. It's the same reason that this group of Trump supporters wasn't black or Latino. There are black and Latino Trump supporters but what are the chances that a group of Trump supporters united his fictitious cause would just happen to be black or Latino?

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    A religion is not a race, and a race isn't a religion.
    You are right, Islam is not a race. However, when we're talking about "isms" I think that's a distinction without substance. We don't have short word for prejudice and hatred based on religion so I used racism short hand which was lazy but I don't feel that should undermine my point. The set of people who are prejudice based on religion corelates exactly with the set of people who are prejudice based on race.

    Of course, I could get really finicky and point out that racism as we use the word isn't based on race, it's based on ethnicity. So your correction is just as flawed as my original misuse. Touche.

    I used Islam as an example because they are probably the most Out of Out groups in America at the moment (apart from gay people... but they're out and proud... own it you magnificent SOBs). That's partly latent racism due to the close correlation of Islam with the Black and Arabic races and partly due to the backlash from 9/11 that tends to paint all Muslims as terrorists. I felt their "outness" provided the best counterpoint to the Trump followers "inness".

    Interestingly, I don't think the crowd that marched on the Capitol exactly correlates with race and I saw a surprising number of black faces amongst the crowd, though it's hard to look at any of the footage and not see a strong correlation there. Obviously, I couldn't tell their religion but I'm willing to bet they were overwhelmingly Christian because Trumps messaging has explicitly targeted that group while condemning other religions. But, no, you won't see an exact correlation with either race or religion there because he's also targeted conspiracy theories in general and you don't need to be a WASP to be a member of QAnon.

    I feel like I've mangled In and Out about as far as I'm able to without doing the hokey cokey.


    The point about Muslims, I think, was more about how an already established Out Group would have been treated in the same situation in order to demonstrate that these people were considered an already established In Group
    Yep ^ that
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Jan 8th, 2021 at 01:51 PM.
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post

    I feel like I've mangled In and Out about as far as I'm able to without doing the hokey cokey.
    OMG, I haven't been to an In 'n' Out in far too long... I'd like a 4-by Animal Style... strawberry shake... large fries...

    please and thank you...

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Yeah I didn't really want to talk about racism again either. My problem was that the first thing some people were doing was blaming racism for the lack of preparedness at the capital. I'm not ruling it out as a contributor but I don't think a lot of people are giving plain old ignorance enough credit. Or at least let some facts come out before making a decision. Haven't checked the news today so maybe some more information is available.

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Why is that surprising? Because you don't think black people support Trump?
    Not at all. I know there are black people who support Trump. They do represent a diminishingly small proportion of his constituency, though. I'm honestly not sure where you're driving with this angle.

    We do have exactly the right word, it is bigotry.
    Bigotry does not distinguish prejudice based on religion. We don't have a word for that that I can think of.

    If you want to talk about inaccurate use of the word racism then yes, my use of it was inaccurate as I already acknowledged in the first sentence of post 228. Broadly I agree that we should strive to use those terms correctly and my usage was lazy, as I also went on to acknowledge.

    However, I think you fail to appreciate just how slippery "isms" are. A great many Muslims are Semitic, Semitic being the ethnicity of people originating in the Middle East (also referring to the languages and races of that part of the world). But you will never hear the term "Anti-Semitic" applied to prejudice against a Muslim. We reserve that word for prejudice based on religion against Jews, even though not all Jews are Semitic and the word Semitism has no religious connotations. So the lines between Race, Ethnicity and Religion are very blurred and so too is the correct choice of ism to use when describing the associated prejudices.

    This gets even more complex when we introduce Nationality and Tribe. We commonly use Racism to refer to prejudice based on Nationality or Tribe. If I decry French People for being chain smoking garlic munchers who run away at the first sign of a German (sorry French People, but mocking you guys is a British tradition... and you did spend 100 years kicking our ass), we would use "Racism" to describe that even though French is not a race, it's a nationality. You couldn't describe it as Nationalism because Nationalism has an entirely different meaning that has nothing to do with prejudice (though they often go hand in hand).

    Now consider that we talk about the Nation of Islam and that Jews will frequently refer to themselves as a tribe (or twelve, depending on the discussion) and a Nation, and a Race, and a Religion (you've got to admire their commitment to the bit). We're definitely into the territory where my use of Racism could be considered valid... in a dim light. We've equated Nationality with Religion and Racism with prejudice based on Nationality. We achieved Kevin Bacon in a mere two steps.

    So "Racism" is clearly a term that describes prejudice based on much more than race. I would argue that my usage was lazy, but not entirely invalid.


    All of which only really serves to derail the thread. I think we should back on to discussing something we can all agree on: that Trump is an awful human being.


    (Footnote: despite the trope, the French are actually the most militarily successful nation on the planet so that stereotype is, of course, total garbage. They do smoke too much though.)



    Edit> I think it's also worth mentioning that "Race" is a word that doesn't really have an exact meaning anyway. We talk about black people as a race but the Irish were considered "black" when they first started immigrating into America. Indeed the N word was often applied to them. Race is a nebulous and inexact concept at best.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Jan 8th, 2021 at 04:24 PM.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill

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  37. #237
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    OMG, I haven't been to an In 'n' Out in far too long... I'd like a 4-by Animal Style... strawberry shake... large fries...

    please and thank you...

    -tg
    If I didn't know that you were talking about a restaurant, I might have to ban you for that statement.

    About the only part that is clearly about food is the "large fries". The rest....well, let's not go there....
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  38. #238
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Stuff
    Last edited by OptionBase1; Jan 8th, 2021 at 04:41 PM.

  39. #239
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    I edited all my posts from today. Other posters make reference to being able to delete their own posts, I've never seen any option to do that or I would have done that.

    I have no problem with some of my original posts being quoted, but I just wanted to be done with this thread and was pissed off at myself for getting in the mix in the first place.

    I will say that only someone like Donald Trump could cause me to get into an even quasi-political discussion online. Crimany.

  40. #240
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    I have a hunch, back here, that you had a quasi-motive.

    No idea about deleting posts. Perhaps that is something at Power Poster level (2k, roughly), or perhaps it WAS something and isn't anymore. At one point, you could delete posts, and if the OP deleted their post the whole thread went away. We lost the immigration thread that way. It was entertaining.
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