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Thread: Reparations for slavery

  1. #41
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Reparations for slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    hard to say, probably somewhere in the bell curve.
    A ringing endorsement!!

    America is peculiar in it's expectation that the past will be forgotten. At least OUR past will be forgotten, maybe not yours. So much of our law is about second chances, cleaning the record, and so on. I remember a comparison between US bankruptcy law and European bankruptcy law. I can't say I remember the substance of the comparison, but I do remember a comparison. The point was that the US is modeled around being able to put the past behind you.

    There's an obvious problem with putting the past behind you: You may not have learned a darn thing, so you'll just end up repeating the mistakes of the past. We're slowly moving towards the position that some history is not to be forgotten, but only slowly.
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  2. #42
    Fanatic Member Delaney's Avatar
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    Re: Reparations for slavery

    In France, we have officially about 20-25% of racism (extreme right party), but in fact it is more about 40%, I would say. But I think it is a racism different from the US: it is more a question of behavior (from religion or culture) than a question of race (well, there is still some *******s that think that a black or an arab is worth less than a white but that's really a minority) and as we always take some shortcut, we associate that problem with a color of skin or type of hair or anything visible. I think it depends also of the history : My grand father hated the german (he was a war prisoner during WWII, so...), my father has a problem with arabs (he has made the algerian war, so...). It doesn't excuse them, it just explains the why.

    I didn't have any problem with any nation/culture/ethnic so I have not the same feelings than them. I consider the individual/individuals that act badly and not the group as itself. (not sure I am clear on this one). I consider the color of skin at the same level than the color of hair. I prefer to pay attention to the acts, the respect to other, etc. That is what I teach my daughter.

    I also think that if you put people in group (let says black and white) and says these groups are equal, that's means that at some point they are not and you need a law to make them equal. you shouldn't need a law for that. I think this is the source of the problem. You should not need to say white and black are equal, men and women are equal. First they are not, even in the same group, they don't have the same skin color, size, weight, education, culture, knowledge, etc but they are all human, so you just need to treat them as plain human. It should suffice.

    Considering people as just human with just different hair color, skin color, size, gender, etc should be the nominal.

    In the US, you put the race on the ID (African, Hispanic, Caucasian, etc), you should put the skin color like the hair color and not the race. I am officially Caucasian in the US which make me smile because I am part Celt, part Latin/Roman, part Frank/Saxon, part I don't know what in 2000 years of history. I have almond shaped eyes so I may have also some Asian/ far east blood somewhere also and my skin is a bit darker than any "viking".

    I am not naive, I know there is a long journey to achieve that, that there will have always some ******s (this time I moderated myself ) believing in superior/inferior race. But I am confident, I will fight for that and I will at some point succeed. It goes through our children education, it is our duty to teach them respect of other and equity.
    Last edited by Delaney; Oct 5th, 2020 at 04:20 PM. Reason: typo
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  3. #43

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    Re: Reparations for slavery

    A ringing endorsement!!
    Did you get the impression I was endorsing the amount of racism in our country. I wasn't. Sorry if it sounded that way.

  4. #44
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Reparations for slavery

    No, I was making a reference to the bell.
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    Re: Reparations for slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    No, I was making a reference to the bell.
    I didn't catch the pun.

  6. #46
    Fanatic Member Delaney's Avatar
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    Re: Reparations for slavery

    ringing the bell...
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    Re: Reparations for slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    I haven't traveled out side of the US but from what I see on the news and have read about, I not convinced the US is leading the world in racism.
    I do not think that America is especially racist, although it has always seemed to be a little holier than thou whilst not realising the extent of its own racism.

    Americans as individuals are lovely in general but the society does seem a little primitive from the outside despite the technology and the machinery.

    I believe racism is inherent in all of us. It takes civilisation, education and some intelligence to realise that it is something we have to control. The bloody French though... I hate 'em.


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    Re: Reparations for slavery

    It takes civilisation, education and some intelligence to realise that it is something we have to control.
    "Intelligence" hmmm, we might have a problem.

    The bloody French though... I hate 'em
    Not me! Good food, Wine and they sent us a really cool statue.

  9. #49
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    Re: Reparations for slavery

    Well, you are being very selective about who you think are the bad guys.
    How? I'm not excusing anyone their atrocities. That's what you're doing.

    As for the rest of it, are you really going to double down on Might Makes Right in the name of National Darwinism? Seriously, you really need to look back through the history of the 20th century and consider who's made that argument before.

    When I flipped the question and asked you guys how much time needed to pass before an atrocity required restitution I wasn't expecting the answer "none at all". So to be clear, is there no atrocity that you don't think should be simply brushed aside as soon as it's actually occurred? If not, how long is required?


    And again, the article linked to is not to do with racism. It's to do with the legacy of the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade. They intersect, they do not equate. You're still displacing from the issue the article addresses.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Oct 6th, 2020 at 03:01 AM.
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  10. #50
    Fanatic Member Delaney's Avatar
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    Re: Reparations for slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post

    I believe racism is inherent in all of us. It takes civilisation, education and some intelligence to realise that it is something we have to control. The bloody French though... I hate 'em.

    I don't think it is racism that is inherent but xenophobia. It is a sort of natural defense.

    For the "bloody French", I can only answer « Messieurs les Anglais, tirez les premiers ! Voyez ce qu'il en coûte à un bon cœur de remporter des victoires. Le sang de nos ennemis est toujours le sang des hommes.» (Gentlemen of England, shoot first! See what it costs a good heart to achieve victories. The blood of our enemies is always the blood of men. Battle of Fontenoy)
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  11. #51
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    Re: Reparations for slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    "Intelligence" hmmm, we might have a problem.

    Not me! Good food, Wine and they sent us a really cool statue.
    That's why I love americans, they have good taste. We are always ready to help them to deal with the gentlemen of England like in 1776 .

    And more seriously, speaking of memory, I know that if I don't speak german today, it had the cost of young american lifes on a normandy beach... well some gentlemen of England too, so I can't be to hard with yereverluvinuncleber.
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  12. #52
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    Re: Reparations for slavery

    Reperations is a blunt tool and difficult as your are looking to compensate the descendents of the people it happened to, the main difference in this case is that it's so recent that it is still directly affecting people today to a fairly large degree.

    I still feel it would be better just to spend more money on education, social care and health care for these communities in general, but considering past behaviour of governments laying out money to interest groups i don't feel its completely unreasonable.

    It clear that the people in charge have no problem distributing money to there friends and wider social circles or enacting policies that does this.
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  13. #53
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    Re: Reparations for slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    How? I'm not excusing anyone their atrocities. That's what you're doing.

    As for the rest of it, are you really going to double down on Might Makes Right in the name of National Darwinism? Seriously, you really need to look back through the history of the 20th century and consider who's made that argument before.

    When I flipped the question and asked you guys how much time needed to pass before an atrocity required restitution I wasn't expecting the answer "none at all". So to be clear, is there no atrocity that you don't think should be simply brushed aside as soon as it's actually occurred? If not, how long is required?

    And again, the article linked to is not to do with racism. It's to do with the legacy of the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade. They intersect, they do not equate. You're still displacing from the issue the article addresses.
    I find it very strange but it feels like you are having a completely separate discussion and not the one myself and others are having. You seem to take what ever others say and twist it slightly to your own meaning so that we have to argue your twisted points back again. The point is not to turn people's words so that you can make a point on each as that only wins an argument in your own head. Sometimes your points are my points and you don't see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    I'm not excusing anyone their atrocities. That's what you're doing.
    That is an example from the above that I am not going to argue with as it is simply not true and if that is what you are hearing then there is no point in talking to you as every sentence we utter is going to be perverted by the time it enters your head. I'm not taking a swipe at you I am merely pointing out that you are consistently hearing something I/we are not saying.

    The idea is to listen to what people are saying and look at the logic in their comments and see why it affects your argument. So far you have taken other's comments several times and changed them only to suit your perception of reality.

    I'm not going to pick holes in your arguments and twisting each so that you 'lose' in some minor way, that's not my aim. I am simply letting you know that you need to use logic in real life as well as programming. There have to be rules and methods and solid reasons for doing this or that. It isn't just good enough that you argue your case and 'feel' that a wrong has been done, the argument needs to have some implementable logic at the core.

    For example, reparations are typically taken from the losers as the winners can make that happen due to their position and power. The losers have no choice but to accept. You want reparations from the 'winners' and as all nation states that currently exist are the inheritors of a positive result then they must all pay their dues. I don't see that happening in any meaningful way.

    As I said earlier, your undoubted passion is clouding the logic, who is going to be drawing up up those vague rules? I wouldn't let you as you seem unclear as to the boundaries of those rules and the reasoning for it all. I know from experience here that your programming skills are nowhere near as vague as your political ideas. Getting the culpable to pay for recent wrongs in living memory, there are some examples of that but getting the world's countries/societies/companies/families to pay for wrongs done in their name, hundreds of years after the event?

    Can you even separate that perceived damage done from the perceived benefits bestowed in the scale of things. Is there a credit and debit balance?

    I think it is just a silly idea in practice.

    PS. French saucisson sec is quite nice.

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    PowerPoster yereverluvinuncleber's Avatar
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    Re: Reparations for slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by Delaney View Post
    That's why I love americans
    I want to love Americans, they just make it difficult.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delaney View Post
    We are always ready to help them to deal with the gentlemen of England like in 1776 .
    That didn't turn out very well for the poor French King who gave the USA the help. When his troops returned, trained in revolutionary fervour, they promptly took off his head, revolution is always a poor return on investment. UK only wanted to protect its trade and surprisingly, it did grow year on year after independence, the result was actually exactly what what we wanted but not what we had planned for. Parliament and the people were generally content, only our poor George was affronted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delaney View Post
    the cost of young american lifes on a normandy beach... well some gentlemen of England too
    Oh, yes, two American beaches, two commonwealth beaches and the whole of the Royal Navy and don't forget the Canadians. Those young Americans, doing the right thing, a better example when the USA was undoubtedly doing good in the scheme of things.

    PS. French wine can be quite tasty.

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    Re: Reparations for slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber
    ...and the whole of the Royal Navy...
    Indeed, not to mention hundreds of civilian fishing and cargo crews that were asked to volunteer themselves and their entirely unsuitable vessels to help get wounded troops (of any nationality) out of the combat zone and back to Blighty.

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber
    PS. French wine can be quite tasty.
    Especially the stuff in boxes. Anything after 2018 is a good vintage, anything older is past the sell-by-date.
    Last edited by wossy; Oct 6th, 2020 at 07:57 AM.
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    Re: Reparations for slavery

    I find it very strange but it feels like you are having a completely separate discussion and not the one myself and others are having.
    OK, lets go back to the beginning of the thread. (For brevity I'm going to paraphrase several posts here but I'll clearly cite which post I'm quoting so anyone can go back and check I'm not miss-representing) The first post of this thread contains a link to an article about reparations for the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade along with the following text:-
    What is this suppose to achieve?



    Making reparations for something we fought a war to stop 150yrs ago doesn't make sense.

    I realize this bill deals with reparations for other things beside slavery, it's just the slavery part that I have a hard time seeing the point
    So the position being put forward here is quite clearly that the US should not make reparations for the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade. I don't feel I'm misrepresenting that.

    I do not agree with that position, therefore I am going to offer counter arguments to it. Further, when arguments are offered in support of that position I am going to attempt to counter them. This is the nature of debate and is exactly what you and Wes are doing, just from the opposite direction.

    I don't think it will be particularly worthwhile to itemise every one of those arguments but lets go through a few to illustrate.

    --

    There has been an attempt to argue that we should deal with racism instead. Quote from post 3:-
    OK, let it be about racial inequality and racism. Providing more opportunities. Not about if you are related to someone who was a slave.

    Your right, so let's make this about what's happened since slavery.
    My counter to this argument is that they are not the same thing and dealing with them is not mutually exclusive. You can do both.

    --

    An argument was put forward that we shouldn't make reparations for slavery because White people would find it uncomfortable. From posts 10 through 12:-
    Wes:You really think white people are more comfortable spending large sums of money in the name of Slavery Reparations than in the name of social inequality or equal opportunity? Maybe. I'm often wrong about social responses. We'll see.
    Funky:I don't feel that what white people are more comfortable with should be the primary consideration.
    Wes:Well if you want anything to happen then you should consider it. If you expect change will happen just because you think it's the right thing to do, even if most white people don't feel comfortable with the reason given, don't think anything will change. I don't know a lot of people that are eager to change, that's why so many people wont except BLM and say all lives matter. any excuse will do. It's like giving medicine to a dog, you got to stick that pill in a tasty hot dog. lol
    My counter to this is that it's an attempt to brush a problem away rather than to achieve justice. Comfort should not be the primary consideration. Justice should.

    --

    A bunch of attempts were made to imply that, because there have been other injustices throughout history, we do not need to deal with this one. Post 14:-
    Does this apply to the descendants of enslaved Chinese laborers, prostitutes, and concubines in the western U.S. as well?
    Post 16:-
    Does Egypt owe the Jewish people reparations
    Post 27:-
    I have an axe to grind. My Saxon forebears were enslaved by the Normans in 1066 and they made us learn some of the bleedin' French! So we British should seek reparations from those Normans, ie. the Norwegians, Denmark and the Swedish.
    My counter to this is that the existence of any number of other atrocities does not justify failing to deal with this. Just as the existence of this atrocity should not be used as a justification for failing to deal with any other.

    --

    An argument was offered that there should be an arbitrary cut off date for reparations. Post 30 Paragraph 3:-
    If you want reparations for only recent slavery and only partially for a discrete part of the population affected then that seems wrong. There has to be an arbitrary cut-off point in time
    There have been several attempts to try and put the onus on my side of the debate to define that arbitrary date, even though I'm not the person arguing there should be one. Post 16:-
    How far back are apologies and reparation necessary?
    Post 20:-
    My question is how far back can you go and have reparations still be meaningful?
    My counter to this is to argue that there does not need to be any arbitrary cut off - each case can be argued on it's merits and, while the passage of time may be a factor in that argument, it is by no means the only or even primary decision point. I turned that question back to your side of the debate, which seems fair as you're the one asking for it, and you have failed to provide any answer. If you want to make the argument that the slave trade is historical enough to be unworthy of restitution then it really is up to you to define what the parameters of that are.

    --

    I could go on. Whether you care to admit it or not I am engaging directly with the arguments that you are making. I'm just engaging with the uncomfortable bits that you'd rather gloss over.

    Your position is that we shouldn't make restitution for slavery and I feel I have engaged with the arguments you put forward to support that. My position is that we should make restitution because 1. it is an atrocity severe enough to merit it and 2. it is perfectly possible for us make such restitution in a fair manner. Post 8:-
    On the one hand, I do think that the US's history of slavery is still uniquely disadvantaging black people and advantaging white people today.

    While this is inevitably tied up with race I don't think it's enough to place it under the generalised umbrella of racism. All sort of people suffer from prejudice but the institution of slavery legitimised and institutionalised it in a way that stands apart. In the US, in particular, it is embedded in your history and culture in a way that continues to have not just financial but deeply psychological implications. You don't have statues celebrating indentured servitude of the Chinese - you do have statues that celebrate the enslavement of black people. And you didn't fight a literal civil war to keep Chinese people indentured.

    However, I also think that this doesn't individually apply to all black people or all white people. I think that it corelates much closer to "all black people" than it does to "all white people". You can find non-whites (Hispanics in particular) who benefited from the institution of slavery. You can also find Whites who were disadvantaged by it (White lower classes experiencing poverty due to competition from slaves is a theme throughout the expansion Westward and the path to civil war). For these reasons, while we can apply an overwhelming generalisation that slavery advantaged white people at the expense of black people, I think any attempt to identify individuals on either side will be fruitless and divisive.

    For that reason I think we should view the injustice in generalised terms and therefore apply a generalised solution. I also think that solution should be focussed on slavery, not just on race or poverty. So I think a generally applied reparation tax, the proceeds of which should be ring fenced for community projects for (and administered by) black communities would be a good solution.
    How about you do me the courtesy of engaging with my position as I have with yours. Why would you not do the above?
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Oct 6th, 2020 at 10:34 AM.
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    PowerPoster yereverluvinuncleber's Avatar
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    Re: Reparations for slavery

    OK, a bit less contorted this time by the personal bifocals, thanks for that. I do feel I am on the logical side and you are on the empassioned side. You may be kinder and more passionate than me but I'm trying to be realistic rather than cruel.

    I am thoroughly engaged in your position and I do think it is a lovely idea but it is thoroughly impractical for all the reasons I mentioned earlier. No-one is glossing over your arguments it is just the overall concept that is flawed and my individual arguments seem to be picking holes in what you feel is 'right' but what I see as a very shaky emotional position. Your defence seems to be more about belief in restitution rather than practicality and reality.

    The Jews affected by the Nazi holocaust are only recently receiving reparations from the German state and individual companies/banks that hid from their involvement for all these decades. Their arguments that they are different companies with different owners/people in charge is actually a valid argument but does not mean that their previous encumbents should not have paid reparations. It is now almost too late to do any good, given that even the survivors are mostly dead. It does feel wrong that there are bank accounts owned by Jews that the banks would prefer to keep closed, using the proceeds for their own ends. The immediacy of the problem is reduced due to time passing and the logic of restitution so late in the day, is it now punishment rather than reparation?

    As the above cases I mentioned are so recent it is possible to bring some small measure of restitution to a decreasingly small group but it is too little, too late. However, with regard to slavery, the Colston problem is an example, it is all well and good throwing his statue into the harbour but it is too long ago to make his family pay a debt that did not even exist when he and his progeny lived, the idea of a debt that has been invented by a future generation. You can try to make a currently elected government say sorry but it will never be genuine as the incumbent will be quite aware that it has nothing really to do with them.

    Re: racism and slavery, this IS a racism issue as that is how it is being packaged in the media, it relates to the USA and its battle with itself over its treatment of current day black people and the reasons for it.
    Slavery in itself as a concept is not being dealt with, or it would include those that were enslaved by other hands.

    So, I am engaging with your arguments, and by the way the opposition wasn't all down to me, there is more than one person here engaging with you and only a few you mentioned are my points. Engaging with arguments is all well and good but I feel you see those engaging as your opponents. That is not true and I am afraid it does not improve the logic.

    When several are arguing against my own empassioned ideas I think it wise to look at the logic of the idea and let that serve. If this concept was an application design, I wouldn't build it, I'd hand it back to the designer, tell him it was flawed and tell him instead to present it to management, where I'd be happy to argue the case against it.

    PS. I quite like that French Escargot with garlic butter and bread.

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    PowerPoster yereverluvinuncleber's Avatar
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    Re: Reparations for slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by wossy View Post
    Indeed, not to mention hundreds of civilian fishing and cargo crews that were asked to volunteer themselves and their entirely unsuitable vessels to help get wounded troops (of any nationality) out of the combat zone and back to Blighty.
    I wasn't aware of that, thanks for updating me.

  19. #59
    Junior Member wossy's Avatar
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    Re: Reparations for slavery

    I'm trying to find the documentary about it from a couple of years ago. I'll post it if I find it.

    Edit: iPlayer's search page is playing silly beggars at the moment. I think it may have been an episode of Coast or one of Dan Snow's programs.
    Last edited by wossy; Oct 6th, 2020 at 01:54 PM.
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    Re: Reparations for slavery

    I do think it is a lovely idea
    It's justice so I guess you could call it lovely. I feel like you're downplaying something important there though.

    I do feel I am on the logical side and you are on the empassioned side
    Nope. Let's get into that...

    it is thoroughly impractical for all the reasons I mentioned earlier
    You haven't argued against my proposal once and you haven't given a single reason why it would be impractical. Do you feel a generalised tax could not be collected? Do you feel the proceeds of that tax could not be ring fenced? Do you feel it could not be spent on community projects administered by the black community? That's the totality of the practical concerns that I can see.

    The arguments you and Wes have presented have nothing to do with practicality. They've been to do with desirability... your view of "just" vs mine... whether the current black community is sufficiently representative of the legacy of the slave trade... I don't want to put words in your mouth but I do feel those are at least representative of the broad types of arguments you made. These are all to do with morality, not practicality.

    The only argument I've seen so far that had anything to do with practicality was the argument that white people would find it uncomfortable. Wes, I believe, was trying to assert that that discomfort would prevent any law from passing. But California has just passed one (that's what the linked article is about) so that argument is demonstrably false.

    Other than that there's your argument around power dynamics. This may be a practical argument but I'm genuinely unclear on the point you're making with that. So far here's the argument I feel you've presented (massively condensed):-
    1. Powerful people can and do commit atrocities and have done throughout history
    2. We should not make restitution for the slave trade

    There's a massive logical fallacy there: argument 1 does not predicate argument 2. Presumably there's a missing predicate but you haven't provided it. I can think of a few you might offer:-
    1. From the way you've expressed yourself in several posts it comes across as arguing that power equates to justice. A might makes right argument along the lines of "it's ok for the powerful to crush the weak because they can". This would be a pretty repugnant position and not one I want to believe of you. It's certainly not an impression I've picked up from our interactions outside of this thread but some of your posts in here have given off that vibe.
    2. That it is impossible to stop the powerful from committing atrocities so therefore we just have to reluctantly live with it. While I agree that future atrocities are probably inevitable this misses that we're not talking about prevention, we're talking about restitution. (we should at least try prevention but that's a different debate)
    3. Basically an extension of 2, that it is impossible to achieve restitution. But I've seen no argument that would support that. Restitution is entirely possible and California are doing it.
    Those are the only predicates I can think of but perhaps you have another. If so, offer it and I will engage.

    this IS a racism issue as that is how it is being packaged in the media
    Again, this is a logical fallacy. One does not predicate the other. The way the media are packaging it does not define what it actually is, though it is likely to colour the way people perceive the issues. But we are intelligent beasts with an ability to reason and look beyond media portrayals... so we should. No doubt the two issues are closely tied and closely corelate but that does not make them the same issue. I've laid out the logic for this in post 8 and more explicitly in post 25.

    So honestly, I'm going to hold that I'm the one arguing actual logic. What I'm seeing from you and Wes are moral assertions (I'd call them immoral but I guess that's the crux of the debate) along with a very few logical arguments which contain fallacies and don't stand up to logical interrogation.


    Stepping away from our respective attempts to claim the logical high ground now, there's a couple of other things in that last post I feel are worth addressing.

    The Jews affected by the Nazi holocaust are only recently receiving reparations from the German state
    I think this is a really interesting example because the holocaust ended 75 years ago - almost exactly half as long as it's been since slavery in America ended. You've got maybe 2 decades max before it's no longer "in living memory". As such it's going to provide some really uncomfortable optics if you double down on your argument for an arbitrary date after which atrocities should simply be accepted as historical fact.

    the Colston problem is an example, it is all well and good throwing his statue into the harbour but it is too long ago to make his family pay a debt that did not even exist when he and his progeny lived
    Nobodies calling for that so why do you feel the need to argue it? We just wanted him to stop being celebrated. This is pretty familiar though. You built a straw man that you felt comfortable arguing against instead of engaging with the argument that was actually being made.

    And the fact that you're still arguing in terms individuals or individual families makes it pretty clear that you're still not engaging with the argument I'm putting forward because I'm arguing that you don't have to identify individuals. I'm arguing that you shouldn't. So this is yet another straw man.



    Unless you're going to argue that restitution for the slave trade would not represent justice then the proposition of this thread is "We should deny a group of people justice because ... arguments". I've yet to see an argument presented that carries enough weight to justify that proposition
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Oct 6th, 2020 at 02:44 PM.
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  21. #61
    Fanatic Member Delaney's Avatar
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    Re: Reparations for slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post

    PS. I quite like that French Escargot with garlic butter and bread.
    .

    Nobody likes the french escargots, it is just an excuse to eat the garlic butter and bread same for the frog legs.


    Especially the stuff in boxes. Anything after 2018 is a good vintage, anything older is past the sell-by-date.
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  22. #62
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    Re: Reparations for slavery

    The black people and other races concerned should ask reparation for how they are treated today, not for how their ancestor (I insist on the word ancestor not parents, it implies several generation) were treated as it is history.

    If the fact that their ancestor were slave didn't have any impact on their present life (i.e. they are treated with equity and no racism), it would not be a subject ( like for example the way the roman treated the celt has no impact on our actual life so I am not concerned on how Julius Caesar treated Vercingetorix and so I have no resentment toward the italian).

    The fact is: it has an impact on their today life and that's what must change. It is the current way that is important and that current way is not good. What if we give money for the past wrong but don't change the present ? What good would it do if we pay reparation for the slavery but still accept the racism behaviors ?
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    Re: Reparations for slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by Delaney View Post
    The black people and other races concerned should ask reparation for how they are treated today, not for how their ancestor (I insist on the word ancestor not parents, it implies several generation) were treated as it is history.
    I'd agree with that.

    I'll stick with reality rather than justice because justice as we all know is fickle and you can never be sure it is fair. Justice is blind.

    Now, I've made my point with funky and he doesn't need to hear it again so I won't chime in again except to say, Normandy (without the Germans in 1944) is rather nice, brandy and calvados are tasty too. Oh yes, my best mate is French too. Damnit I've only just noticed that.

    Funky, if you were trying to change minds I don't think your point of view really won the day but your passion in the face of reality is undeniable and it is admirable. I think that with enough pressure some token restitution will be made by countries that feel some collective guilt but it won't be enough nor will it be universal.

    PS. The St. Marcellin ripe cheese from Lyons is very tasty too.

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    Re: Reparations for slavery

    Well If I can resume your thought, you "hate" the "bloody French" but you love the country and all our good products that's fine with me
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    Re: Reparations for slavery

    I'll stick with reality rather than justice
    Do you feel they're mutually exclusive? If justice were delivered, would it not be reality?

    And define what reality you're sticking with. The only thing you've established so far is that human atrocity is a thing and not exclusive to the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade but that does not predicate your conclusion. Beyond that I'm still waiting for you to make an actual argument.
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    Re: Reparations for slavery

    Nobody likes the french escargots, it is just an excuse to eat the garlic butter and bread same for the frog legs.
    It entirely depends on who's cooking them, if you getting your escargots from a farmers market in france then i agree, but if instead you eating them at the restaurant Trois Soleil de Montal in St Cere then they are amazingly good !!

    Well If I can resume your thought, you "hate" the "bloody French" but you love the country and all our good products that's fine with me
    Well some of us like both the french people and the food, well at least mostly
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    Re: Reparations for slavery

    I'll stick with reality rather than justice
    Reality changes over time, what was once unthinkable is now reality.

    Reperations is just moving historically dodgely made money around. Its mostly very rich men that made money from slavery and there families have benefitted for generations.

    I understand why some people are uncomfortable with the idea or think its impractical, but as i have already posted in this thread in the UK we have been paying reperations to Slave Owners right up until 5 years ago, which shows that its not only possible to do but we have a track record of doing it.

    Nobody in Government 10 or 20 years ago thought we shouldn't be paying this out from Tax Payers money, they just didnt mention it and carried on paying out.

    Its amazing what spending can be justified when the desire is there.
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    Re: Reparations for slavery

    It entirely depends on who's cooking them
    No, that one I'm with Delaney on. I can't think of anything I'd rather eat less than a snail. Well, I can, but I don't want to think about eating it.
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    Re: Reparations for slavery

    No, that one I'm with Delaney on. I can't think of anything I'd rather eat less than a snail.
    Well thats your mind doing the eating rather than your mouth.
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    Re: Reparations for slavery

    Interesting aside, the snail is the first animal that humans ever actively farmed.
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    Re: Reparations for slavery

    Slavery and the subsequent oppression of black people through the Jim Crow area, and policies only slightly less explicitly awful like the War on Drugs, has caused so many problems with incredibly deep roots. Politicians want a quick fix, something they can point to and talk about what their policies have accomplished, and that panders in a way optimal for their cash 'donations' and vote totals .

    So they inevitably wind up looking at proposals that won't help, aren't designed to, and generate the most favorable attention. Also completely off the table is any proposal that puts even the tiniest, vanishingly small, bit of responsibility on disadvantaged minorities themselves. There's no desire for equal opportunity, only 'equity'-- state-madated equality of outcome. A lot of the time this just smacks of believing that black and Hispanic people are simply inferior: That it's unfair to expect them to ever be able to succeed on a level playing field. You see this with affirmative action. The left looks at something like SAT scores... across top tier universities, *after* controlling for all other characteristics-- GPA, community service, and critically: household income which rejects a simple scapegoat of poverty, a black student with a 1,000 on the SAT has an equal chance of admission with a white student who scores 1,310, and an Asian student must score *1,450* to have the same odds. But that's not enough, they say. They believe objective measures should be dropped entirely, and many "racial sensitivity" programs contend that belief in meritocracy is inherently a value of white supremacy (nevermind that race-blind admissions result in fewer white people and many more Asians; but some educrats like NYC's Richard Carranza dismiss that point by explaining that Asian people actually possess white privilege).

    It's hard to hear that and conclude that there's not an inherent conceit that black students are simply genetically inferior in intelligence. But I look at those scores and say, if we're intending to undo the consequences of slavery, and recognize that genetic inferiority is bullshit, the only acceptable solution is to drill down into the underlying causes and not accept anything less than boosting the average score for black students by several hundred points.

    That's what reparation programs should target. Not enforcing equality of outcome by simply dumping money on black people and holding them to dramatically lower standards, but a comprehensive overhaul from conception to adulthood to achieve equality of outcome by eliminating the gap in performance. It's not going to be easy, in any aspect. Everything needs to change, of course including our systemically racist legal system, but also including the kind of culture that too often fails to provide a stable home life, very early childhood nutrition and education, and ostracizes children who attempt to succeed despite that for "acting white" while routinely glorifying gang violence. In NYC, whether you go to a good high school or not is determined by the SHSAT standardized test. To try to do an end-run around root causes, they offer free test prep courses to any student who desires to take advantage. But who actually shows up for that? The same demographics they claim have too many advantages, despite their similar economic class (in NYC public school students, Asian students come from households with poverty level income at a higher rate than black students).

    But honestly, for the most part the (mostly white) progressives are only interested in reparations that blame everything on white people continuing to be actively racist and advance programs that maximize racial divisions, and do absolutely nothing to put minorities into a position where they can succeed on a level playing field, instead just accepting a belief that it's inherently impossible for black people to be every bit as successful on merit based metrics and therefore unfair to hold them to one. So I'm forced to reject what constitutes reparations as advanced by my fellow progressives, as I feel they are actually counterproductive towards the end goal we share of achieving equality of outcomes.

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    Re: Reparations for slavery

    fafalone,

    Enjoyed reading your post. Thought it was honest and well balanced. Not that I'm highly qualified to pass judgement but I am qualified to give my opinion.

  33. #73
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    Re: Reparations for slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    Interesting aside, the snail is the first animal that humans ever actively farmed.
    Have you ever considered... that it was really the OTHER way around?!?!
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  34. #74
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    Re: Reparations for slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by wossy View Post
    Have you ever considered... that it was really the OTHER way around?!?!
    I have considered that for the cats in fact
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    Re: Reparations for slavery

    Yep, definitely, Cats. Master Wossy knows that.

    @Fafalone, I agree with a lot of what you've said, particularly about the systemic effects that slavery has left us with. I'm really glad that you're the first person on here who's separated the black and Asian experience which is exactly what I've been driving at when I say that you can't simply lump this whole thing under the umbrella of "racism". It ignores intersectionality. (I wouldn't have lumped blacks and Hispanics in together either but I don't get the impression that was your intent.)

    I'm unclear on exactly what you're saying that means for reparations for the legacy of slavery. I think we're on the same page with this: "That's what reparation programs should target. Not enforcing equality of outcome by simply dumping money on black people and holding them to dramatically lower standards, but a comprehensive overhaul from conception to adulthood to achieve equality of outcome by eliminating the gap in performance..." (I'm using the black community as a reasonable but imperfect proxy for the decision makers on what that comprehensive overhaul should look like, though I'm open to a better one). What are you saying that overhaul should be?
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    Re: Reparations for slavery

    I'm not sure that anybody knows, for sure. In the US, you will get pushback from some strong groups unrelated to racial issues. Our educations system is the best in our own minds. It may not be the best anywhere else, but it's also not completely terrible. It's VERY unfair, which results in an apparent racial bias, but is really a very strong financial bias. If you live in a rich area, you will have better schools. State after state deals with lawsuits over this, though that may be because I've happened to live in states where that was a thing. Both NH, where I grew up, and ID, where I currently live, fund their schools most heavily through property taxes. Those tax revenues stay in the district where they are collected, which means that rich areas are well funded and poor areas are not. This pretty much sucks. The suits were about leveling the funding throughout the state. For example, if all property taxes went into a pool, and each district got an amount based on number of students, things would be more fair. That's not what's happening, though. The groups against that should be pretty obvious.

    Next is the type and quality of teaching. Teachers tend to be better in richer areas simply because they'd rather live in those areas. Even if pay were the same (which it may be), some areas are nicer to live in, and those will draw the best teachers.

    There is also the question of tenure. Getting rid of bad teachers has always had a couple of problems with it. The strong teachers unions can be a problem, as can figuring out who is a bad teacher. If the class doesn't perform well, is it because of the teacher or something else? Kids who don't get enough to eat, don't do as well in school. It may surprise people, but kids who don't get enough to eat tend not to come from affluent families. So, poor areas SHOULD have underperforming students unless the school itself can make up the nutrition deficit, which some are. Kids from poor households, on average, hear fewer words, and are read to less, which also sets them back a bit. No idea how to deal with that, but the point is that a class may perform below average despite having an excellent teacher, which means that identifying bad teachers is very complicated.

    So, what programs could improve baseline performance: I don't think we really know. On top of that, humans don't like change, so trying new things isn't always easy, which makes solving this problem even harder.
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  37. #77
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    Re: Reparations for slavery

    I'm not sure that anybody knows, for sure.
    But that's the problem. Because this is repeatedly used as an excuse to do nothing. And if I'm honest, I believe it's often deliberately used for that purpose to avoid actually engaging with an uncomfortable history instead of quietly sweeping it under the carpet and hoping that it's resultant problems will go away. This is simply displacement and won't result in those problems going away.

    That's why I felt Fafalone's post was interesting. I think he's the first person I've seen in this thread recognise that systemic racism as experienced by black people is largely a result of the legacy of the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade and that that is something we should actually be dealing with instead of sitting on our hands and making excuses. The bit I felt was missing from his post were the concrete measures he would propose to deal with that. I don't think it was his intent but the effect of that missing part is, again, to bring us back to: do nothing. That's why I was hoping he'd fill in that gap.

    Your post is the other end of the argument but is equally problematic and riddled throughout this thread. You address the effects, not the causes. You identify that financial inequality causes inequity in education. That's true, of course, but fails to examine the causes of that financial inequality. It fails to identify that black people are disproportionately on the wrong end of that financial inequality. And it fails to identify that a major contributing factor to that disproportion is the legacy of the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade. The problem with this argument is that it causes us to address the wrong problems. Faf was arguing that the solution is not to simply offer black people free test prep courses and other forms of affirmative action. I personally wouldn't take those things away but I think he's 100% right that we shouldn't simply stop there, pat ourselves on the back and say "job done".

    I want to quote this because I think he was 100% on the money (mildly edited to conform to the forum rules):-
    "if we're intending to undo the consequences of slavery, and recognize that genetic inferiority is garbage, the only acceptable solution is to drill down into the underlying causes"
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Oct 14th, 2020 at 03:07 AM.
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    Junior Member wossy's Avatar
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    Re: Reparations for slavery

    I'd like to suggest that everyone in the world stop being greedy. There I fixed it.

    Where's my nobel prize?
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    Re: Reparations for slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    But that's the problem. Because this is repeatedly used as an excuse to do nothing. And if I'm honest, I believe it's often deliberately used for that purpose to avoid actually engaging with an uncomfortable history instead of quietly sweeping it under the carpet and hoping that it's resultant problems will go away. This is simply displacement and won't result in those problems going away.
    That's not quite the case over here. Since every state is independent, in this regard (the federal department of education is largely meaningless), every state acts as a separate experimental box. Not necessarily an experiment on education, but an experiment. Some states are very clearly doing nothing. Are they doing nothing for racial reasons? Financial reasons? Misguided reasons? Yes, to all three to varying degrees. Other states are doing various things with equally varied motivations. Some good is coming out of this, such as the growing recognition of early education (pre-kindergarten) on later success. However, progress is slow, and my point was that I feel it to be slow largely because truly experimental approaches mean scary change for some powerful, entrenched, interests.
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    Re: Reparations for slavery

    However, progress is slow, and my point was that I feel it to be slow largely because truly experimental approaches mean scary change for some powerful, entrenched, interests.
    That's very true.

    I'd like to suggest that everyone in the world stop being greedy. There I fixed it.
    You also solved world hunger and world peace. lol

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