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Oct 14th, 2020, 04:12 PM
#81
Junior Member
Re: Reparations for slavery
Yes I was being greedy. I do enjoy a good paradox.
On the bright side, I've still got pessimism and despair to fall back on.
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Oct 14th, 2020, 08:21 PM
#82
Re: Reparations for slavery
Shaggy,
I just happened across this today. It talks about the same type of education inequality as you did in your post. They're talking about gifted classes but it's still about money.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/educati...an-it-n1243143
Last edited by wes4dbt; Oct 14th, 2020 at 08:52 PM.
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Oct 16th, 2020, 02:10 AM
#83
Re: Reparations for slavery
By focussing on quality of education (and it's correlation to wealth) you're still looking at effects, not causes. They're important effects, certainly, and they are causes going forwards but you still need to drill back. Instead of identifying that educational outcomes correlate with both race and wealth, you should be identifying that wealth corelates with race, implying that race is the causative factor here, not wealth. And you should be walking your way back up that chain of cause and effect until you find the most precedent cause you can actually deal with. Failing to do that is like prescribing pain killers for a broken arm.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill
Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd
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Oct 16th, 2020, 09:23 AM
#84
Re: Reparations for slavery
My focus on education is a belief that education can make up for a whole lot of other sins. It is also an utterly viable approach, because EVERYBODY would get behind a good solution (except some of the people in Idaho....cause...education isn't necessary, apparently). So, I feel it's what CAN be done, would be effective if it was done, and would get support across the spectrum.
It's a solution. It isn't the problem. The problem is humans. Can't do anything about that, but perhaps we can do something about education.
My usual boring signature: Nothing
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Oct 16th, 2020, 10:10 AM
#85
Re: Reparations for slavery
Fair enough and I'm not arguing that education isn't worth addressing. My objection is that that's where we seem to want to stop. We satisfy ourselves with doing the easy thing instead of pursuing actual justice. I honestly believe that any measures you take to address effects are a short term fix at best if you're not willing to address the causes.
I think we've been doing the easy things for close to a century now. It hasn't worked. And the reason it hasn't worked is because we've avoided doing the hard things.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill
Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd
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Oct 16th, 2020, 12:07 PM
#86
Re: Reparations for slavery
Well, we can't do that thing, easy or not, so it's an academic question (which is really what education should be, now that I think about it).
There are few ills in society that can't be addressed to some extent by better education. Sure, it's not the end of the road, but it could solve so MANY things....but we still can't get it done, so there's that.
My usual boring signature: Nothing
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Oct 18th, 2020, 04:08 AM
#87
Re: Reparations for slavery
Well, we can't do that thing
Why not? I believe we can. We need to examine not just systemic racism but the causes of systemic racism. We need to look at why that systemic racism perpetuates and deal with that. That's the effort I'm not seeing being made here.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill
Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd
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Oct 18th, 2020, 09:25 AM
#88
Re: Reparations for slavery
It may be a better situation, for you, but over here, I've been on the periphery of various battles over education. Unless you KNOW what will work better, you need to experiment a bit to figure out what works. In general, I was being a bit too pessimistic, because there is a little bit of experimentation going on here and there, and a few things are being learned. The dissemination of that knowledge, and the implementation of the lessons learned, is happening at a glacial pace in some areas and not at all in others.
One of the features of the state-based education system, though, is that most things tend to be binary choices. It doesn't happen, it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen....and then it ALL happens like a switch being flipped. That's how things like pre-K have tended to work state by state. The state won't do it for a long time, then they do it for the whole state. If you pay attention to the politics around it, there are lots of sacred cows that have to get slaughtered to move the needle, and that isn't easy. Once it does move, though, it tends to move fast, and then settle into a new equilibrium. Those sacred calves grow up fast, once born.
I suppose that's actually a good thing, but it can be pretty frustrating.
My usual boring signature: Nothing
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Oct 19th, 2020, 04:03 AM
#89
Re: Reparations for slavery
To be clear, I don't disagree with anything you're saying about education, I just think it misses the point.
This discussion was started on a premise that we shouldn't make restitution for the effects of the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade because... <insert a bunch of to and fro here>. I believe we should.
Measures around education are likely to be a large part of that but I think if you jump straight to that discussion you miss the opportunity to actually examine why we have inequities of outcome in the first place. If we reduce that examination to a simple "it's racism" then you miss the opportunity to examine why we have inequities of outcome between different ethnic minorities. You miss that the Black experience is different to the Muslim experience which is different to the Hispanic experience and so on. And you miss that the measures that will produce the best outcomes for each are liable to be different.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill
Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd
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Oct 19th, 2020, 08:26 AM
#90
Re: Reparations for slavery
It definitely misses the point you are making. It's just that it could actually happen. Living in Idaho, race issues just seem utterly intractable. That conversation can't even start, let alone get anywhere. There are pockets of the state that can talk about it, the rest....we earned our reputation. The south of the north.
Still, the original question was more of, "what's this about." I'm in favor of it. I believe it would help this country, as long as it isn't a one-time thing. I believe it should be either a trust payable at 18 for a few generations, or a stipend. The former has a track record, so we can see how it works (as I mentioned earlier, there's a tribe that has that, so it's an experiment already tried, which means the results can be seen), and would be cheaper (the miracle of compound interest), and likely more palatable.
Last edited by Shaggy Hiker; Oct 19th, 2020 at 08:30 AM.
My usual boring signature: Nothing
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Oct 19th, 2020, 09:07 AM
#91
Re: Reparations for slavery
race issues just seem utterly intractable
For me that's the strongest argument for making sure we don't move on and stop talking about it. I know what you mean, though, it can be exhausting. But "All it takes for evil to succeed..." as the saying goes.
as long as it isn't a one-time thing
100% agree and I think it's that sort of thing that's failed to fix the problem in the past. It gives people an excuse to walk away and say "job done" when it clearly isn't. Rectifying the inequities in this world is a process, not an event.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill
Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd
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Oct 19th, 2020, 09:15 AM
#92
Re: Reparations for slavery
Originally Posted by fafalone
There's no desire for equal opportunity, only 'equity'-- state-madated equality of outcome.
Yeah, I'm going to have to call bullsh*t on that. It might be true of some individuals but I see no evidence that that attitude is more prevalent within minorities than it is the straight, white, male majority. There are plenty of people in the socioeconomic majority who have no desire for equal opportunity either because then they know that they'll only get equal outcomes for the same effort instead of better outcomes. When you hear someone claim that white privilege doesn't exist because they worked for what they have, you know you're talking to one of those people. They seem oblivious to the fact that plenty of other people worked just as hard and ended up with far less, simply because they didn't have the same opportunities, for whatever reason.
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Oct 19th, 2020, 11:13 AM
#93
Re: Reparations for slavery
They worked harder, not "just as hard". The lower the pay, the harder the work, with almost no exception (some professional athletes come to mind as an exception). You can take a shovel and dig ditches like a maniac, it won't make you rich. You can GET rich by digging ditches, but only if the circumstances are right, and that's not ALL you do.
My usual boring signature: Nothing
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Oct 19th, 2020, 01:25 PM
#94
Re: Reparations for slavery
Originally Posted by jmcilhinney
Yeah, I'm going to have to call bullsh*t on that. It might be true of some individuals but I see no evidence that that attitude is more prevalent within minorities than it is the straight, white, male majority. There are plenty of people in the socioeconomic majority who have no desire for equal opportunity either because then they know that they'll only get equal outcomes for the same effort instead of better outcomes. When you hear someone claim that white privilege doesn't exist because they worked for what they have, you know you're talking to one of those people. They seem oblivious to the fact that plenty of other people worked just as hard and ended up with far less, simply because they didn't have the same opportunities, for whatever reason.
I read that statement as faf saying the same thing as you. He's not saying that minorities have "no desire for equal opportunity" but it's not the goal of the majority. That was my take a way when I read it.
Living in Idaho, race issues just seem utterly intractable. That conversation can't even start, let alone get anywhere.
Yeah, I live in Ca., a very liberal state, but there is still plenty of people who are angry because they think white people are being discriminate against. That can't accept BLM as just a rallying cry but have to interject All Lives Matter. I'm pleased to see that sector shrinking but there's still plenty of people in powerful positions with that attitude. Banging the drum for equality and yelling your moral outrage, is easily ignored. They've heard the banging and yelling their whole lives. The concept of improving equality isn't new.
Last edited by wes4dbt; Oct 19th, 2020 at 01:29 PM.
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Oct 19th, 2020, 06:41 PM
#95
Re: Reparations for slavery
Originally Posted by wes4dbt
I read that statement as faf saying the same thing as you. He's not saying that minorities have "no desire for equal opportunity" but it's not the goal of the majority. That was my take a way when I read it.
I'll review to try to make sure I didn't misinterpret.
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