Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 95

Thread: Reparations for slavery

  1. #1

    Thread Starter
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    4,563

    Reparations for slavery

    What is this suppose to achieve?

    https://currently.att.yahoo.com/att/...145508334.html

    Is giving some money to people going to solve our racial problems. Imagine if all the countries of the world would have to pay reparations to people/countries they imposed themselves upon or harmed in some way in the last 150 -200 years. It doesn't change the fact it was wrong and at some point the past is the past. Or maybe we should make reparations to the UK for rebelling. This is not paying for the sins of our fathers or Grandfathers or even Great Grandfathers.

    If the government wants to help people that have been discriminated against or have a social disadvantage (currently, not 150yrs ago), then fine. Hell, I use a wheelchair but the ADA wasn't past till 1990. Does that mean the government owes me something for the hundreds of years disabled people were discriminated against. I don't think so. I'm just glad that as a country we have evolved and developed more social consciousness. Making reparations for something we fought a war to stop 150yrs ago doesn't make sense.

    I realize this bill deals with reparations for other things beside slavery, it's just the slavery part that I have a hard time seeing the point.
    Last edited by wes4dbt; Oct 1st, 2020 at 05:09 PM.

  2. #2
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    35,406

    Re: Reparations for slavery

    I was thinking along the same lines, but it's not really the case. The people who were immediately harmed by slavery are all dead, but the people who have been harmed by it are not. The US followed official slavery with unofficial slavery that lasted for about a century after the Civil War, and was then followed on by deliberately racist policies. The results are still felt to this day and show up in a variety of ways. For one thing, a vast amount of where white people are in the US comes to us from generations of inherited wealth of one sort or another. This may be direct inheritance (Trump), or cultural inheritance (me), or often some blend of the two. The ending of legal slavery was followed by a century, or so, of enforced impoverishment via red lining, Jim Crow laws, incidents like the Tulsa destruction, and many others. This means that there has been a group of people who have been systematically harmed for generations, and a considerable amount of wealth that was built on their sweat while they were systematically denied the profit from it, which results in the simple fact that they have virtually zero inherited wealth, while white Americans tend to have a fair amount of inherited wealth.

    Of course, there are poor whites who don't pass on any inherited wealth, but they didn't get there with the explicit help of society the way slaves and the offspring of slaves did. One group was allowed to climb out of poverty, if they could manage it. The other group was consistently kicked back down whenever they thought to climb up.

    Even if we managed to put an end to all the racial segregation practices that still pervade this country, all that would mean is that any who NOW try to climb up won't get kicked back down. It would overlook the fact that those who are already up started from a considerably higher average point because their ancestors weren't being kicked back down.

    So, the point of the reparations would be to try to reverse the results of a couple centuries of denying the ability to accumulate family wealth. This won't be entirely successful, but there is a pretty good case study that shows that it will work...mostly. There is a tribe (I forget which one) where the kids get some generous amount of seed money at the age of majority. That can be squandered, or not, but this serves as a lab study in what reparations would do, and I believe that it shows that the results would be generally just what they should be. It may not be a perfect study, though. Native Americans aren't currently subject to the same discrimination as other groups. Theirs....is different.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  3. #3

    Thread Starter
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    4,563

    Re: Reparations for slavery

    So, the point of the reparations would be to try to reverse the results of a couple centuries of denying the ability to accumulate family wealth.
    OK, let it be about racial inequality and racism. Providing more opportunities. Not about if you are related to someone who was a slave. The bill deals with other issues besides slavery. I have no desire to debate the best way(or if we should) to help minorities, that debating has been going on endlessly and I have no idea.

    The people who were immediately harmed by slavery are all dead, but the people who have been harmed by it are not. The US followed official slavery with unofficial slavery that lasted for about a century after the Civil War, and was then followed on by deliberately racist policies. The results are still felt to this day and show up in a variety of ways
    Your right, so let's make this about what's happened since slavery.

  4. #4
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    35,406

    Re: Reparations for slavery

    I would say that this way is more palatable. All the people who owned slaves are now dead, too. So, no living person is getting the blame.

    Sometimes it's not whether you win or lose, but how you place the blame.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  5. #5

    Thread Starter
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    4,563

    Re: Reparations for slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    I would say that this way is more palatable. All the people who owned slaves are now dead, too. So, no living person is getting the blame.

    Sometimes it's not whether you win or lose, but how you place the blame.
    That's true. lol

    It just feels like a sham. Maybe I'm in the minority but I find spending money to help the current social inequality and providing the means to help start leveling the opportunities for all people much more palatable than spending money in the name of reparations for slavery. But maybe your right, this way you don't have to admit we have a problem that is our fault.

  6. #6
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    21,650

    Re: Reparations for slavery

    Feels like a tailor-made issue for encouraging more division. Can't have people coming together in common cause and overturning the corporate establishment.

    I'm sure that Biden, Harris, Romney, Snyder, Kasich, Cruz, and the rest approve this issue. They'll never even have to deliver on it, and it wouldn't touch them even if they did.

    Keep the "lower classes" divided, by all means.

  7. #7
    Superbly Moderated NeedSomeAnswers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Manchester uk
    Posts
    2,629

    Re: Reparations for slavery

    When i first heard about reperations as an idea i though it sounded a bit crazy and un-viable, sins of our fathers and all that until i found out this.... (and just to be clear this is a matter of public record in the UK it is fact)

    In the UK we paid Slave owning families reperations which continued up until 2015, only 5 years ago.

    We paid them the equivilant of billions of pounds today for loss of earnings due to the end of slavery, and we paid this money to some of the richest families in the UK.

    As the British government paid this through the tax system, the British public in effect have been paying reperations to slave owners for generations.

    Now i have no idea if anything similar happenend in the USA but it shows that when a government wants to pay out reperations as long as your the right kind of people it finds a way!!!
    Please Mark your Thread "Resolved", if the query is solved & Rate those who have helped you



  8. #8
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    7,653

    Re: Reparations for slavery

    I blow hot and cold on this.

    On the one hand, I do think that the US's history of slavery is still uniquely disadvantaging black people and advantaging white people today.

    While this is inevitably tied up with race I don't think it's enough to place it under the generalised umbrella of racism. All sort of people suffer from prejudice but the institution of slavery legitimised and institutionalised it in a way that stands apart. In the US, in particular, it is embedded in your history and culture in a way that continues to have not just financial but deeply psychological implications. You don't have statues celebrating indentured servitude of the Chinese - you do have statues that celebrate the enslavement of black people. And you didn't fight a literal civil war to keep Chinese people indentured.

    However, I also think that this doesn't individually apply to all black people or all white people. I think that it corelates much closer to "all black people" than it does to "all white people". You can find non-whites (Hispanics in particular) who benefited from the institution of slavery. You can also find Whites who were disadvantaged by it (White lower classes experiencing poverty due to competition from slaves is a theme throughout the expansion Westward and the path to civil war). For these reasons, while we can apply an overwhelming generalisation that slavery advantaged white people at the expense of black people, I think any attempt to identify individuals on either side will be fruitless and divisive.

    For that reason I think we should view the injustice in generalised terms and therefore apply a generalised solution. I also think that solution should be focussed on slavery, not just on race or poverty. So I think a generally applied reparation tax, the proceeds of which should be ring fenced for community projects for (and administered by) black communities would be a good solution.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Oct 2nd, 2020 at 04:19 AM.
    You can depend upon the Americans to do the right thing. But only after they have exhausted every other possibility - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  9. #9
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    35,406

    Re: Reparations for slavery

    I do feel that reparations are put forwards largely because it's something you can get your hands around rather than the deeper, far more sticky, problems that remain as a residue of the history of injustices. I'd say that it is an easy label for what would have to be a much more complicated solution (if you wanted the solution to actually...ya know...SOLVE something). Still, I'm fine with that label. Give it whatever fig leaf fits.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  10. #10

    Thread Starter
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    4,563

    Re: Reparations for slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    I do feel that reparations are put forwards largely because it's something you can get your hands around rather than the deeper, far more sticky, problems that remain as a residue of the history of injustices. I'd say that it is an easy label for what would have to be a much more complicated solution (if you wanted the solution to actually...ya know...SOLVE something). Still, I'm fine with that label. Give it whatever fig leaf fits.
    You really think white people are more comfortable spending large sums of money in the name of Slavery Reparations than in the name of social inequality or equal opportunity? Maybe. I'm often wrong about social responses. We'll see.

  11. #11
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    7,653

    Re: Reparations for slavery

    I don't feel that what white people are more comfortable with should be the primary consideration.
    You can depend upon the Americans to do the right thing. But only after they have exhausted every other possibility - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  12. #12

    Thread Starter
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    4,563

    Re: Reparations for slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    I don't feel that what white people are more comfortable with should be the primary consideration.
    Well if you want anything to happen then you should consider it. If you expect change will happen just because you think it's the right thing to do, even if most white people don't feel comfortable with the reason given, don't think anything will change. I don't know a lot of people that are eager to change, that's why so many people wont except BLM and say all lives matter. any excuse will do. It's like giving medicine to a dog, you got to stick that pill in a tasty hot dog. lol

  13. #13
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    7,653

    Re: Reparations for slavery

    If you're to apologise for a wrong you do so on the terms of the person who was wronged. If you do so on your own terms your apology is meaningless.

    The discussion is on the subject of reparations for the institution of slavery. If you do not approach that in terms of rectifying the injustices of slavery you are not making reparations for the injustice of slavery. What you are doing may be worthy, but it is still something else.
    You can depend upon the Americans to do the right thing. But only after they have exhausted every other possibility - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  14. #14
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    21,650

    Re: Reparations for slavery

    Much of the country never had slavery, other parts had it before the Revolution but not after. Many people immigrated well after the Civil War.

    So who pays? Who collects? And how much? Many were enslaved their entire lives, probably most of them unless they were born pretty late. What's that worth? What if somebody has one enslaved ancestor of one grandfather vs. all enslaved ancestors?

    Does this apply to the descendants of enslaved Chinese laborers, prostitutes, and concubines in the western U.S. as well? By all accounts they were treated far worse than black slaves in the South.

  15. #15

    Thread Starter
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    4,563

    Re: Reparations for slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Much of the country never had slavery, other parts had it before the Revolution but not after. Many people immigrated well after the Civil War.

    So who pays? Who collects? And how much? Many were enslaved their entire lives, probably most of them unless they were born pretty late. What's that worth? What if somebody has one enslaved ancestor of one grandfather vs. all enslaved ancestors?

    Does this apply to the descendants of enslaved Chinese laborers, prostitutes, and concubines in the western U.S. as well? By all accounts they were treated far worse than black slaves in the South.
    Yeah it seems like a very complicated idea. Just simple Social Reform or some such wording seems to me would make working on our current problems much more straight forward.

  16. #16

    Thread Starter
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    4,563

    Re: Reparations for slavery

    If you're to apologise for a wrong you do so on the terms of the person who was wronged. If you do so on your own terms your apology is meaningless.
    I have no strong urge to apologize for slavery. It was stopped over 150yrs ago. No one in at least the last two generation have been involved in it and everyone today knows it was terribly wrong (well, probably not everyone), an apology 150yrs later seems meaningless. How far back are apologies and reparation necessary? Does Egypt owe the Jewish people reparations(with interest added, that would be a lot of money. lol). It's like beating a dead horse or apologizing to a long dead horse. I do feel there has been a lot of racial injustice during my life time that needs to be rectified.
    Last edited by wes4dbt; Oct 2nd, 2020 at 03:56 PM.

  17. #17

    Thread Starter
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    4,563

    Re: Reparations for slavery

    In the UK we paid Slave owning families reperations which continued up until 2015, only 5 years ago.
    I had read that when the British Empire banned slavery in 1934 in most of their colonies that they paid some of the slave owners reparations but had no idea they continued doing so. Quite astonishing isn't it????

  18. #18
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    3,496

    Re: Reparations for slavery

    This thread made me think about the Japanese receiving reparations for their interment in the US during World War II.

    https://www.archives.gov/education/l...ese-relocation

    The main link contrasts why congress did that for them but is reluctant to doing it for African Americans.

    https://theconversation.com/why-japa...waiting-119580

    Its is somewhat relevant to the current thread when it comes to the reason they did it for the Japanese and not African Americans
    Please remember next time...elections matter!

  19. #19
    Junior Member wossy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Posts
    26

    Re: Reparations for slavery

    Or Native Americans for that matter.
    On the bright side, I've still got pessimism and despair to fall back on.

  20. #20

    Thread Starter
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    4,563

    Re: Reparations for slavery

    Yeah, the US has made reparations before, not sure how effective they have been,

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/19/u...s-slavery.html
    https://www.history.com/news/reparat...ese-internment

    Most of the power countries of the world have at some point done inhumane acts and many still are. My question is how far back can you go and have reparations still be meaningful? 155yrs to slavery in the US, 185yrs to slavery in the British Empire, 500yrs to the inquisition?

    Whether slavery is at fault for the current problems, I don't know, in 150yrs there's been @ 5 generations. I think what's happened after slavery is more relevant. But I think Shaggy my have an important point, calling it reparations for slavery might make it easier for people to except.

  21. #21
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    35,406

    Re: Reparations for slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    500yrs to the inquisition?
    Nobody would expect that.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  22. #22
    Junior Member wossy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Posts
    26

    Re: Reparations for slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Nobody would expect that.
    I love that youtube channel as well.
    On the bright side, I've still got pessimism and despair to fall back on.

  23. #23

    Thread Starter
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    4,563

    Re: Reparations for slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Nobody would expect that.
    I agree

  24. #24
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    7,653

    Re: Reparations for slavery

    So just to be clear, the argument being put forward is that we shouldn't apologise for slavery because:-
    1. It would make White folk feel uncomfortable
    2. It 2 generations old... so there are literally people alive today who's Grand Parents were slaves... which is the same as slavery in the ancient world.
    3. It's not the only bad thing we've done.
    OK, got it.

    Does this apply to the descendants of enslaved Chinese laborers, prostitutes, and concubines in the western U.S. as well?
    The US never legalised the slavery of Chinese people. The prostitutes and concubines you describe were smuggled in illegally by the Chinese as part of the wave of legal immigration in response to the gold rush - a wave of immigration the US explicitly attempted to prevent and slavery they explicitly attempted to police. The Trans-Atlantic slave trade was both legalised and industrialised. Are you really comparing the two?

    As for the question of whether the British should be making reparations, yes, we should. So should half the nations of Europe. None of this has any bearing on the whether the the US should be doing the same and is simple displacement.
    You can depend upon the Americans to do the right thing. But only after they have exhausted every other possibility - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  25. #25
    Junior Member wossy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Posts
    26

    Re: Reparations for slavery

    Meanwhile the Vulcans look at us down their big telescopes and one says to another:

    Sulen: "Well Lorot, they've got nuclear power stations and fricken lasers and some primitive ion engine tech. Shall we wait until they're all drunk and drop by to say hello?"

    Lorot: "No, not just yet, they still can't work out how to be nice to each other and say sorry properly."

    Sulen: "Oh well, you wanna watch that sheep pig movie on DVD again?"

    Lorot: *sigh* "Yeah go on. That old guy reminds me of someone."

    Sulen: "I know, right? I don't think it's TNG canon though. Enterprise maybe." *shrug*

    Lorot: "Never watched Enterprise."

    Sulen: "No-one did."
    On the bright side, I've still got pessimism and despair to fall back on.

  26. #26

    Thread Starter
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    4,563

    Re: Reparations for slavery

    1. It would make White folk feel uncomfortable
    2. It 2 generations old... so there are literally people alive today who's Grand Parents were slaves... which is the same as slavery in the ancient world.
    3. It's not the only bad thing we've done.
    OK, got it.
    No you clearly, Don't Got It

    "It would make White folk feel uncomfortable"
    We were talking about reparation for slavery being a more comfortable concept than reparation for what has happened since the end of slavery.

    You really think white people are more comfortable spending large sums of money in the name of Slavery Reparations than in the name of social inequality or equal opportunity
    I did say I don't think change will happen if people don't feel comfortable with the reasons given. But that's not about apologies and that is a far cry from we shouldn't apologize because "It would make White folk feel uncomfortable"

    If you expect change will happen just because you think it's the right thing to do, even if most white people don't feel comfortable with the reason given, don't think anything will change.
    I never used "It's not the only bad thing we've done" as a reason not to pay reparations and I never asked if the British should pay reparations. It was,

    My question is how far back can you go and have reparations still be meaningful? 155yrs to slavery in the US, 185yrs to slavery in the British Empire, 500yrs to the inquisition?
    Don't know why you feel the need to misrepresent what has been said. You've done this type of thing several times before.
    Last edited by wes4dbt; Oct 4th, 2020 at 01:48 PM.

  27. #27
    Fanatic Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Norfolk UK (inbred)
    Posts
    529

    Re: Reparations for slavery

    I have an axe to grind. My Saxon forebears were enslaved by the Normans in 1066 and they made us learn some of the bleedin' French! So we British should seek reparations from those Normans, ie. the Norwegians, Denmark and the Swedish.

    People forget that slavery was the norm. Just as many white people were being enslaved by the various empires throughout the world and throughout time, the Ottomans were very keen on white slaves for janissaries &c. When the slave trade was abolished by Britain, it only applied to black people and white slavery (whose transportation did not generally occur on the high seas) was conveniently forgotten as to banish that trade would have meant war with inland powers. Britain was able to stop slavery due to its control of the seas, so inland slavery of other peoples was simply not even considered.

    The great movement of black peoples in Africa and the slaughter it engendered was actually reduced by the value place upon African heads by other Africans. You didn't need to slaughter all the men when you could simply sell them into slavery. Many survived solely because of the slave trade. Africans were the greatest of all slave traders, their societies were based upon it.

    Slavery has been an institution and an intrinsic part of all human culture for as long as humans have existed. Only in the 19th Century was it expedient to abolish it. If we go back to our pasts, at some point we will find a slave in our bloodline. If we all ask for reparations then I'll be putting my claim in to current-day Italy for those bastard Romans who screwed up my family 2,000 years ago and then it will be the government in Northern Germany, Saxony that will be getting the next bill, followed by the whole of Scandinavia (helped by the nascent French bastard nation) then the Germans for 'trying' to enslave us twice in the 20th century.

    My bill will be feckin massive.

  28. #28
    Hyperactive Member Delaney's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2019
    Location
    Paris, France
    Posts
    404

    Re: Reparations for slavery

    Yep, but we are even with Joan of Arc .

    By the way and it is hard to tell it, by the bloody bastard french that I am: I agree with you about all.
    Last edited by Delaney; Oct 4th, 2020 at 03:29 PM.
    The best friend of any programmer is a search engine
    "Don't wish it was easier, wish you were better. Don't wish for less problems, wish for more skills. Don't wish for less challenges, wish for more wisdom" (J. Rohn)

  29. #29
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    7,653

    Re: Reparations for slavery

    We were talking about reparation for slavery being a more comfortable concept than reparation for what has happened since the end of slavery
    Why are you portraying them as mutually exclusive.

    To cite my former post:-
    The discussion is on the subject of reparations for the institution of slavery. If you do not approach that in terms of rectifying the injustices of slavery you are not making reparations for the injustice of slavery. What you are doing may be worthy, but it is still something else.
    Why do you feel that the comfort of white people is the primary consideration here? Where does the comfort of and justice for the victims of this injustice and their descendants rank for you? Because you don't appear to be considering that.

    I never used "It's not the only bad thing we've done"
    It was a tone of general comments in the thread. People were citing illegal Chinese slavery, Ethnic cleansing of Native Americans, Reparations to slave owners... and so on. All of which were reprehensible but equate to an argument of two wrongs making a right.

    My question is how far back can you go and have reparations still be meaningful?
    Let's turn that on it's head. How long do you think an injustice has to go unaddressed before it's acceptable to sweep it under the rug?

    Don't know why you feel the need to misrepresent what has been said
    I don't feel I am. I'm responding directly to what you and others are actually posting in this thread. I may be doing it in a way that makes you feel uncomfortable but that's a function of the fact that you are trying to ignore the issues that I feel are actually important - in this case actual justice for the people who are descendants of the victims of slavery.



    I have an axe to grind.
    I mean, have at it. Make your case. If you feel you can justify reparations you're welcome to them. I feel you're 1. building straw men and 2 arguing that two wrongs make a right and, in doing so, are basically saying "slavery... not that bad really was it?" which really isn't a good look.


    Edit> Let me see if this gets my point across. Answer this question: What do you feel would represent actual justice for the descendants of the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade? N.b. the answer to this question is not dependent in any way on what you feel can be delivered. But it should represent your starting point if you wish to pursue actual justice.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Oct 5th, 2020 at 04:23 AM.
    You can depend upon the Americans to do the right thing. But only after they have exhausted every other possibility - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  30. #30
    Fanatic Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Norfolk UK (inbred)
    Posts
    529

    Re: Reparations for slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    If you feel you can justify reparations you're welcome to them. I feel you're 1. building straw men and 2 arguing that two wrongs make a right and, in doing so, are basically saying "slavery... not that bad really was it?" which really isn't a good look.
    That's just plain bollox. Total utter misrepresentation of what I just said.

    To be clear as you didn't get it. Slavery is awful, it is appalling - but for the majority of man's time on earth it has been a simple fact that underpinned ALL civilisations.

    If you didn't understand that simple point, or if you are assuming I am saying something else then you and your understanding are failing... I'd have to be a Nazi to think slavery is good. Does anyone else here thinks I'm a Nazi? Perhaps they understood my position? Yes, I think the latter, they understood that was a humorous response but a valid point at its core.

    If you want reparations for only recent slavery and only partially for a discrete part of the population affected then that seems wrong. There has to be an arbitrary cut-off point in time and then you have to determine how much they suffered under whom and then who should get the payment. Who would pay? The extreme majority of the sinners are now dead. If the current society/country has to pay and you accept that all civilisations have been founded upon slavery then all civilisations are equally culpable and they should all pay each other large sums. You would have to set up reparation rules and who is going to do that, you? I think not.

    Your suggestion that I believe that two wrongs make a right? Of course not but a billion wrongs everywhere and all the time throughout history? That sets up such an appalling example of man's inhumanity to man that we simply have to look back to 1833 as being a shining beacon where one country found it expedient to tell all the others under its control that the slave trade was no longer morally acceptable. The first time in man's history that the reigning Imperial power has made that moral position stick worldwide.

    For whatever reasons it was done and I'm sure you'll bring them up - that morale judgement that slavery is wrong and should be banned is still in place today.

    We could all shout out a worldwide "SORRY" if it would make you feel any better.

    FYI - My grandmother was a product of Empire and slavery, she married my great grandfather at the end of the 19thC. He was a Plymouth Bretheren missionary to Barbados. Her skin was dark and my great grandfather's was very white. Neither he no she would not have been there without slavery, my family would not exist. Someone white from Britain or Spain exploited her and her forbears, someone white shipped them to Barbados, probably English, someone black, mediterranean or North African sold her forbears when an ancient relative from her tribe was conquered and every man either killed or sold into slavery by another black tribe. I lived in Africa for years, I speak zulu, I have studied the zulu wars and the zulu nations and I know what they are capable of. The Zulu nation is culpable and the reparations it owes to other tribes is incalculable.


    My Great grandmama, seated middle.


    Another earlier photo showing my grandmama, seated left, her darker skin a little more clear.


    That's me getting married in as Imperial a setting as you can find, in the grounds of a English country manor.


    My boy, a product of empire, slavery, colonisation and all that stuff that we call history. I don't regret nor do I want reparations for what slavery (or is it just history) did to my family.

    Top two family photos taken in the early 20th C. just to show I'm not talking bollox. However, honestly? this selective reparation idea IS bollox.
    Last edited by yereverluvinuncleber; Oct 5th, 2020 at 08:42 AM.

  31. #31
    Junior Member wossy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Posts
    26

    Re: Reparations for slavery

    Something tells me that this particular societal evil isn't going to be exorcised by some people posting on a near-deserted programming forum.

    But just in case, I'm going to buy shares in vbforums.com.
    On the bright side, I've still got pessimism and despair to fall back on.

  32. #32
    Fanatic Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Norfolk UK (inbred)
    Posts
    529

    Re: Reparations for slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by wossy View Post
    Something tells me that this particular societal evil isn't going to be exorcised by some people posting on a near-deserted programming forum.
    But who cares about the rest of the world? They are generally as thick as ****. Most people here are clever and worth arguing with.

  33. #33
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    7,653

    Re: Reparations for slavery

    There has to be an arbitrary cut-off point in time and then you have to determine how much they suffered under whom and then who should get the payment.
    I disagree. It's a function of whether the parties involved can make the case that the injustice still has a material impact today and can be addressed. I would argue that the baggage of the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade still has a material impact today, and to argue that it doesn't is to ignore the voices of those affected by it.

    So then what was the purpose in you arguing for reparations for 1066? I get that you meant it as a joke but, unless you really were arguing that we should make reparations for 1066, which I get that you weren't, then it's absolutely a part of the narrative that the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade can be disregarded because of it. Even if deployed in jest, it was clearly a straw man and clearly an argument that two wrongs make a right - or a billion wrongs make a right. That's a million miles from calling you a Nazi though. That's hyperbolic.

    So to your argument that two wrongs don't make a right but a billion do... sorry but that's garbage and more displacement. You used it to justify some arbitrary cut off. Why does it justify that? What's the connection? And why does it make it the responsibility of those who feel justice has not been but can be served to define and justify such a date instead of those who are arguing that justice has not been served but <shrug> it's difficult so let's not bother?

    I actually laid out an approach to offering reparations way back in post 8 that avoids the need to personalise it. What do you feel is wrong with that? And why do you feel that justice cannot or should not be served by reparations when as others have pointed out, we did make such reparation to the actual slave owners?

    As for the Zulu thing, you're still arguing for 2 wrongs. I grew up in Nigeria. They still have a strong tribal tradition to this day and there is great resentment from the other tribes toward the Yoruba and Oyo because they were the tribes were most involved in selling people into the Slave Trade. I'm not going to excuse them of that (and neither does the rest of Nigeria - it's very much an open wound) but I'm sure as hell not going to try and make the argument that it excuses the European empires and the US.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Oct 5th, 2020 at 09:21 AM.
    You can depend upon the Americans to do the right thing. But only after they have exhausted every other possibility - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  34. #34
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    35,406

    Re: Reparations for slavery

    MY Saxon ancestors knew all the Angles.

    Had to say that. It was hard to restrain myself from making multiple quips about some of YELUE's posts over in VB6, so he makes a post here that is quippable, and I'm gonna quip!

    I'd say that reparations should be a uniquely American issue. If others want to argue about other injustices, they can, but reparations in America is labeled to be about slavery, but it really isn't. It's more about the aftermath. We should have stuck with 40 acres and a mule...but that was taken away, as well.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  35. #35
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    7,653

    Re: Reparations for slavery

    MY Saxon ancestors knew all the Angles.
    Now you're just being obtuse

    I'd say that reparations should be a uniquely American issue
    I disagree but probably not with the substance. I believe that reparations the US should make to the descendants of the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade should be an American domestic issue. But I think us Europeans should be facing up to similar responsibilities. The Belgians REALLY should examining their history. I would say that the difference is that on this side of the pond we should be making restitution to Africa rather than (or perhaps in addition to) our domestic population.



    reparations in America is labeled to be about slavery, but it really isn't. It's more about the aftermath.
    I wanted to touch back on that because there's a nuance in what I'm saying that's likely being missed. I agree that it's largely about the aftermath. However, it's important to note that we're talking about the aftermath of the slave trade - we're not talking about racism. The two may intersect but they do not equate.

    Racism in America goes far beyond the legacy of slavery. Muslims, Hispanics, Chinese/Japanese all experience racism and Black people also experience racism that isn't a direct effect of slavery. General othering happens to all people who can be othered. While we're on that, we can talk about LGBTQ+, women, the disabled and a dozen other groups. They are all worthy of our attention and support.

    Similarly the legacy of the Slave trade goes beyond mere racism and prejudice. The history if the slave trade is still being actively celebrated in the United States and confronts the descendants of slaves in a way that other minority groups do not experience. I may be wrong but I'm unaware of any statues or flags that celebrate prejudice against other minority groups.

    It's the intersection of the two (which is a wide intersection) that makes it so important that the two are not equated - they compound each other. And that's why it's so important that each is addressed in it's own right. To fail to address them both is to fail one group or the other.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Oct 5th, 2020 at 11:15 AM.
    You can depend upon the Americans to do the right thing. But only after they have exhausted every other possibility - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  36. #36
    Junior Member wossy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Posts
    26

    Re: Reparations for slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber
    But who cares about the rest of the world? They are generally as thick as ****. Most people here are clever and worth arguing with.
    You were doing so well up to just then.
    On the bright side, I've still got pessimism and despair to fall back on.

  37. #37
    Fanatic Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Norfolk UK (inbred)
    Posts
    529

    Re: Reparations for slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by wossy View Post
    You were doing so well up to just then.
    Are you saying they aren't clever here?

  38. #38
    Fanatic Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Norfolk UK (inbred)
    Posts
    529

    Re: Reparations for slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    I'm sure as hell not going to try and make the argument that it excuses the European empires and the US.
    Well, you are being very selective about who you think are the bad guys. It just seems to be those that you are currently pissed off with. I am a realist and know that the only thing that prevented us from being enslaved was a bigger and better Navy and the will to resist. The will was essential but the Navy was a big help.

    That form of Darwinism is a really tough lesson to learn and when a nation like the Romans/Mongol Hordes/Ottomans/Nazis tries to impose a lesson on others, it is very hard to be on the receiving side.

    America has always been racist and the only surprise to me was how the USA has always seen itself as the good guys whilst remaining staunchly racist behind the scenes through their treatment of American natives, black slavery &c. The hypocrisy always seemed strange. South Africans in the 80s, when I was there, were openly racist. I can't say I liked them more for that but at least they weren't hypocritical.

    With regard to being on the receiving side, it happened so long ago for us that our bitterness is forgotten and is now part of our history, we just simply accept it. However, it still happened and you can't just discount it. We have ALL suffered in slavery and we have probably all benefitted from the slavery of others.

    So, if I am not really asking for reparations it seems that the criteria for eligibility to your club is just bitterness and a good memory.

    PS. If a few people can manage to wangle a few dollars from a sensitive and embarrassed nation then I understand the reasoning why they are doing it. It is just a pity that all the others that were enslaved didn't get the same opportunity.

  39. #39
    Junior Member wossy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Posts
    26

    Re: Reparations for slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    Are you saying they aren't clever here?
    You misunderestimate me.
    On the bright side, I've still got pessimism and despair to fall back on.

  40. #40

    Thread Starter
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    4,563

    Re: Reparations for slavery

    America has always been racist and the only surprise to me was how the USA has always seen itself as the good guys whilst remaining staunchly racist behind the scenes through their treatment of American natives, black slavery &c. The hypocrisy always seemed strange. South Africans in the 80s, when I was there, were openly racist. I can't say I liked them more for that but at least they weren't hypocritical.
    I haven't traveled out side of the US but from what I see on the news and have read about, I not convinced the US is leading the world in racism. It sure is in the news. Also, how many countries are openly admitting how racist their country is.

    Believe it or not, most whites, black, hispanics .... interact on a daily basis quite well. I don't know where we are as a country on the racist meter, hard to say, probably somewhere in the bell curve.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  



Click Here to Expand Forum to Full Width