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Nov 4th, 2020, 09:09 PM
#161
Re: Presidential Debates
Originally Posted by jmcilhinney
The good news is that the last votes to be counted will likely favour Biden. With Biden ahead in Arizona and Nevada, if Trump prevents any more counting then Biden wins, but if counting goes ahead then Biden likely wins more comfortably. It's by no means guaranteed but that's the way it looks.
It's ironic that it's always the right bleating about states' rights and now a big chunk of the right are now going to be supporting their dear leader in trying to quash the rights of states to conduct the election in accordance with their own laws. Personally, I think that a federal election should be conducted under federal law so that the rules are the same for everyone that is not how it is so the cry-babies can just suck it up. If this election genuinely were fair then Trumps defeat would already be confirmed by a significant margin.
I agree. The electoral college needs to be dumped, it doesn't represent the peoples votes. But and this is a BIG but that would take a constitutional amendment,
Amendments may be proposed either by the Congress, through a joint resolution passed by a two-thirds vote, or by a convention called by Congress in response to applications from two-thirds of the state legislatures.
I don't see congress agreeing on anything by 2/3.
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Nov 4th, 2020, 09:12 PM
#162
Re: Presidential Debates
Originally Posted by jmcilhinney
It's ironic that it's always the right bleating about states' rights and now a big chunk of the right are now going to be supporting their dear leader in trying to quash the rights of states to conduct the election in accordance with their own laws.
The irony has grown old. Idaho, is one of the loudest bleating about states rights on the principle that a government closer to the people will govern better...but they utterly refuse to let cities do their own thing in this state, because when it comes to government closer to the people than them...well, now, that's just crazy talk.
My usual boring signature: Nothing
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Nov 4th, 2020, 09:17 PM
#163
Re: Presidential Debates
Originally Posted by wes4dbt
I agree. The electoral college needs to be dumped, it doesn't represent the peoples votes. But and this is a BIG but that would take a constitutional amendment,
Amendments may be proposed either by the Congress, through a joint resolution passed by a two-thirds vote, or by a convention called by Congress in response to applications from two-thirds of the state legislatures.
I don't see congress agreeing on anything by 2/3.
No, it would not. There's something called the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact. In that, states that sign up don't have to do anything until 270 electoral votes sign on. At that point, they declare that their delegates will vote for the winner of the popular vote. As long as 270 electoral votes are in the compact, the electoral college won't make a bit of difference anymore, because the popular vote winner would automatically win the electoral college. The list of states that have signed on is growing. At this point 196 electoral votes have signed on, and 60 more are pending. That would take it to 256, which isn't far below the 270 necessary to wipe out the electoral college.
Some folks believe this to be unconstitutional, but the constitution leaves it up to the states as to how their delegates will vote, so I believe the challenges don't have a leg to stand on. The electoral college was set up because the founding fathers assumed that sometimes people would vote for the wrong person, and the college could correct such mistakes.
My usual boring signature: Nothing
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Nov 4th, 2020, 09:24 PM
#164
Re: Presidential Debates
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
The electoral college was set up because the founding fathers assumed that sometimes people would vote for the wrong person, and the college could correct such mistakes.
Again, it's the right that bleat about the evil "elites" and also most about how infallible the founding fathers were, yet here are the founding fathers setting up a system of elites to fix what the people can't do for themselves. The right just don't care because they are the ones who benefit from it.
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Nov 4th, 2020, 10:09 PM
#165
Re: Presidential Debates
No, it would not. There's something called the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact. In that, states that sign up don't have to do anything until 270 electoral votes sign on. At that point, they declare that their delegates will vote for the winner of the popular vote. As long as 270 electoral votes are in the compact, the electoral college won't make a bit of difference anymore, because the popular vote winner would automatically win the electoral college. The list of states that have signed on is growing. At this point 196 electoral votes have signed on, and 60 more are pending. That would take it to 256, which isn't far below the 270 necessary to wipe out the electoral college.
Some folks believe this to be unconstitutional, but the constitution leaves it up to the states as to how their delegates will vote, so I believe the challenges don't have a leg to stand on.
Never heard of it. Checked it out on Wki and went to the constitutionality section. There seems to be plenty of disagreement. Thanks for the info.
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Nov 4th, 2020, 10:17 PM
#166
Re: Presidential Debates
I think Trump's posturing and grumbling is just a way of giving the crazies time to cool off and adjust rather than acting in a regrettable manner. It really doesn't matter whether the cheating overcame his chances this time unlike last time or not. There is no putting the evil genie back into the bottle.
So prepare for deeper income inequality, new unbalanced trade deals, more environmental exploitation here and abroad, anti-consumer deregulation, more private prisons, and a series of new wars of intervention. Sovietization is back on track after a four year hiatus.
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Nov 4th, 2020, 10:27 PM
#167
Re: Presidential Debates
Originally Posted by dilettante
I think Trump's posturing and grumbling is just a way of giving the crazies time to cool off and adjust rather than acting in a regrettable manner.
You're talking about the crazies that he's been explicitly riling up for months, if not years, right? What exactly would make you think that he suddenly thinks the exact opposite of what he's been preaching all this time?
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Nov 4th, 2020, 10:49 PM
#168
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Nov 4th, 2020, 11:02 PM
#169
Re: Presidential Debates
We're posting comedians again? Here is one I find funny:
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Nov 4th, 2020, 11:15 PM
#170
Re: Presidential Debates
Originally Posted by jmcilhinney
What exactly would make you think that he suddenly thinks the exact opposite of what he's been preaching all this time?
To clarify, I don't think that Trump believes a lot of what he preaches. I think the he sees lying to his supporters as a useful way to gain and maintain power and wealth for himself and his family (thank goodness he's not a politician). What makes you think that he would no longer think that?
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Nov 4th, 2020, 11:56 PM
#171
Re: Presidential Debates
I think Trump's posturing and grumbling is just a way of giving the crazies time to cool off and adjust rather than acting in a regrettable manner
I spoke about this in another thread. I'm always amazed that anyone would actually think that Trump cares about anything but himself. your suggestion that his law suits, cries of fraud and threats are for the good of the country strikes me as an inability to be honest on this subject.
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Nov 5th, 2020, 05:13 AM
#172
Re: Presidential Debates
I think Trump's posturing and grumbling is just a way of giving the crazies time to cool off
It's the exact opposite of that. Trump literally wants civil war in the streets and hopes it's a path to continued power.
Last edited by FunkyDexter; Nov 5th, 2020 at 05:16 AM.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill
Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd
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Nov 5th, 2020, 06:03 AM
#173
Re: Presidential Debates
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
. The electoral college was set up because the founding fathers assumed that sometimes people would vote for the wrong person, and the college could correct such mistakes.
Interesting. I have read that it was because at that time the distance and travel was a problem to have the result quickly and so each state could vote in an "independent" way and then the final vote will be done by the "great voters" (we call them like that in France) representing each state at the electoral college in one place and allow to have the result quickly.
I'm wonder which one is the official reason and which one is the true one or maybe both are.
Last edited by Delaney; Nov 5th, 2020 at 06:10 AM.
The best friend of any programmer is a search engine
"Don't wish it was easier, wish you were better. Don't wish for less problems, wish for more skills. Don't wish for less challenges, wish for more wisdom" (J. Rohn)
“They did not know it was impossible so they did it” (Mark Twain)
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Nov 5th, 2020, 06:07 AM
#174
Re: Presidential Debates
Originally Posted by jmcilhinney
To clarify, I don't think that Trump believes a lot of what he preaches. I think the he sees lying to his supporters as a useful way to gain and maintain power and wealth for himself and his family (thank goodness he's not a politician). What makes you think that he would no longer think that?
I fully agree and the worse, of what I have read from his supporters, is that they are fully convinced that he never lie or lied to them.
The best friend of any programmer is a search engine
"Don't wish it was easier, wish you were better. Don't wish for less problems, wish for more skills. Don't wish for less challenges, wish for more wisdom" (J. Rohn)
“They did not know it was impossible so they did it” (Mark Twain)
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Nov 5th, 2020, 07:04 AM
#175
Re: Presidential Debates
That seems overly optimistic. I don't know what in the last four years would make you think that. He has already filed law suits and remember he has the supreme court in his pocket.
That crossed my mind after I posted. My opinion on that certainly goes against the last four years.
Please remember next time...elections matter!
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Nov 5th, 2020, 07:43 AM
#176
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Nov 5th, 2020, 07:50 AM
#177
Re: Presidential Debates
I have this over-riding feeling that I can no longer ignore, that all Americans are ***** - I don't want to think that and I know it can't be true but the feeling keeps bubbling to the surface the more I hear, read and see about this election and the people voting for this utterly broken system. I currently just HATE America and all is now stands for. I am fairly certain that the majority of the world now thinks this way too.
How awful it has fallen to this. Where is the America of the 40s?
Last edited by Shaggy Hiker; Nov 5th, 2020 at 10:23 AM.
Reason: Removed word that was clearly in violation of the AUP
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Nov 5th, 2020, 07:52 AM
#178
Re: Presidential Debates
Originally Posted by dilettante
I think Trump's posturing and grumbling is just a way of giving the crazies time to cool off and adjust rather than acting in a regrettable manner.
From here in the UK it looks as though the last four years has been Trump doing everything he can to encourage the crazies. It has been a constant stream of white supremacy ("Good people on both sides", "Stand back and Stand by" etc.), promoting of racist ideology (frequently retweeting know far right groups with racist agendas), undermining your own voting system bu riling up his fans etc.
I honestly don't think he cares in the slightest about anyone but Donald Trump. If he has to destroy your legal system, financial system, your armies, your system of government, his family, or anything else to regain power he will happily do it.
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Nov 5th, 2020, 07:55 AM
#179
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Nov 5th, 2020, 08:16 AM
#180
Re: Presidential Debates
You know who also scares me? The AG Barr.... This Week w/ John Oliver recently profiled him and his past history.... JFC... he's freakin' Grimma.
Sometimes the most dangerous isn't the evil you see but the evil you don't see hiding in the shadows. Although Barr isn't exactly hiding... he's pretty much out there, clearly right of center.
-tg
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Nov 5th, 2020, 08:36 AM
#181
Re: Presidential Debates
Ahh the "Good people" hoax again. Seriously?
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Nov 5th, 2020, 08:44 AM
#182
Re: Presidential Debates
Originally Posted by dilettante
Ahh the "Good people" hoax again. Seriously?
Ahh the "hoax" hoax again. Seriously?
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Nov 5th, 2020, 09:03 AM
#183
Re: Presidential Debates
Outside of dil's conspiracy talk, what he means is this is the quote everyone is quoting:
https://youtu.be/JmaZR8E12bs?t=60
But, while it does take him another minute to clarify, he did condem the white supremacists:
https://youtu.be/JmaZR8E12bs?t=117
Not embedding the videos because they don't allow timestamps when embedded.
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Nov 5th, 2020, 09:07 AM
#184
Re: Presidential Debates
Originally Posted by kfcSmitty
he did condem the white supremacists
It always seems to take him some time to get around to doing that. Some might consider it a priority rather than an after-thought.
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Nov 5th, 2020, 09:09 AM
#185
Re: Presidential Debates
Originally Posted by jmcilhinney
It always seems to take him some time to get around to doing that. Some might consider it a priority rather than an after-thought.
Agreed. A big problem is those that don't like Trump, really can't stand to hear the guy talk.. so him saying something like he did there, and then taking a full minute (and multiple questions) to clarify is going to be lost to a lot of people who already dislike him.
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Nov 5th, 2020, 09:14 AM
#186
Re: Presidential Debates
Hey, I can't stand to hear him talk myself. Much less look at him.
Sadly, we're looking at the alternate universe where Biden wins:
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Nov 5th, 2020, 10:20 AM
#187
Re: Presidential Debates
Originally Posted by wes4dbt
Never heard of it. Checked it out on Wki and went to the constitutionality section. There seems to be plenty of disagreement. Thanks for the info.
Yeah, there's plenty of disagreement. I'm uncomfortable with the idea, myself, but if you go back to why the electoral college was created...I think the compact could win in the supreme court. The court has generally upheld the right of the state to send electors at their discretion. There was a case this last summer that re-affirmed that principle. So, if the states say, "this is our discretion", I'm not sure the supreme court would refuse them.
My usual boring signature: Nothing
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Nov 5th, 2020, 10:27 AM
#188
Re: Presidential Debates
Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber
How awful it has fallen to this. Where is the America of the 40s?
Tucked away with your rose-colored glasses, most likely. America of the 40s had a LOT of ugliness hidden behind a curtain. In most ways, we're a better society. In some cases, that means that means that the ugliness is out on the stage.
My usual boring signature: Nothing
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Nov 5th, 2020, 10:55 AM
#189
Re: Presidential Debates
Originally Posted by kfcSmitty
Agreed. A big problem is those that don't like Trump, really can't stand to hear the guy talk.. so him saying something like he did there, and then taking a full minute (and multiple questions) to clarify is going to be lost to a lot of people who already dislike him.
He lied so many times. It can be a new one : condemn officially and in reality he doesn't care. Just a strategy to get some few voices/votes from undecided stupid people who believe anything without thinking a bit.
The best friend of any programmer is a search engine
"Don't wish it was easier, wish you were better. Don't wish for less problems, wish for more skills. Don't wish for less challenges, wish for more wisdom" (J. Rohn)
“They did not know it was impossible so they did it” (Mark Twain)
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Nov 5th, 2020, 11:03 AM
#190
Re: Presidential Debates
Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber
I have this over-riding feeling that I can no longer ignore, that all Americans are ***** - I don't want to think that and I know it can't be true but the feeling keeps bubbling to the surface the more I hear, read and see about this election and the people voting for this utterly broken system. I currently just HATE America and all is now stands for. I am fairly certain that the majority of the world now thinks this way too.
How awful it has fallen to this. Where is the America of the 40s?
Don't confound the country, the government, the people and the politicians. Or maybe you consider that a few make a country and everyone are the same.
The best friend of any programmer is a search engine
"Don't wish it was easier, wish you were better. Don't wish for less problems, wish for more skills. Don't wish for less challenges, wish for more wisdom" (J. Rohn)
“They did not know it was impossible so they did it” (Mark Twain)
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Nov 5th, 2020, 11:19 AM
#191
Re: Presidential Debates
Originally Posted by kfcSmitty
That's from 3 years ago... that's not what everyone is quoting... at least not recently... more recently it's the point blank question in the debates where he was asked to outright condemn white supremacists... and he asked "which ones?" And after some flustering around, he said that the "Proud Boys" should "stand back and stand by" ... that's not condemnation by any means. But he couldn't/wouldn't do that for some reason.
If he wanted to truly condemn them then and now, he would have flat-out said he condemns their actions, and would label them as a "terrorist organization" same as people are trying to label BLM (which isn't an organization, but the KKK is... so go figure.) To Trump the movement of the BLM represents a threat to him, his way of life, and his friends, so it's labeled as a terrorist organization, while the KKK still roams free.
-tg
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Nov 5th, 2020, 12:04 PM
#192
Re: Presidential Debates
Originally Posted by techgnome
That's from 3 years ago... that's not what everyone is quoting... at least not recently... more recently it's the point blank question in the debates where he was asked to outright condemn white supremacists... and he asked "which ones?" And after some flustering around, he said that the "Proud Boys" should "stand back and stand by" ... that's not condemnation by any means. But he couldn't/wouldn't do that for some reason.
If he wanted to truly condemn them then and now, he would have flat-out said he condemns their actions, and would label them as a "terrorist organization" same as people are trying to label BLM (which isn't an organization, but the KKK is... so go figure.) To Trump the movement of the BLM represents a threat to him, his way of life, and his friends, so it's labeled as a terrorist organization, while the KKK still roams free.
-tg
Also don't forget that he also wants to classify ANTIFA as a terrorist organisation, despite it not being an organisation. It simply doesn't support him and therefore it is the enemy.
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Nov 5th, 2020, 01:11 PM
#193
Re: Presidential Debates
Originally Posted by kfcSmitty
We're posting comedians again? Here is one I find funny:
That's a good point. I really cared about this election, even though I was also aware that the ONLY way it would materially impact me is if it caused the complete breakdown of society in the form of true civil war.
Based not at all on the outcome of this election:
1) I still have a job.
2) I'm still working from home.
3) COVID still exists.
4) The market is still acting with irrational exuberance, thereby boosting my savings.
5) The market might do something totally different tomorrow, thereby either boosting or harming my savings.
6) I haven't gotten any younger, so I'm closer to retirement.
7) It's still heading into winter.
8) I'm still planning to take a few long trips next year, and neither Biden nor Trump will jump out of the bushes and chase me.
9) I'm still not a woman.
10) I'm still not a minority.
11) I'm still healthy.
12) Pollution is still going to impact me over the next few months.
13) Dilettante is still worried about...well, something changing that somehow impacts all of that.
So, while I cared, it was because of the impact on other people. I can't honestly say that it will impact me. The future WILL impact me, I'm just not sure what material changes either president can make that will impact me directly.
My usual boring signature: Nothing
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Nov 6th, 2020, 09:27 AM
#194
Re: Presidential Debates
Trump is going to start a new reality TV series on Fox called "The Sorest Loser".
My usual boring signature: Nothing
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Nov 6th, 2020, 09:39 AM
#195
Re: Presidential Debates
Georgia and Pennsylvania flipped overnight... I feel like we just started P2 of the season finale of "Election Night"...
-tg
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Nov 6th, 2020, 09:56 AM
#196
Re: Presidential Debates
Betting sites are unimpressed. As of yesterday, they had Biden a STRONG favorite in both states, which kind of surprised me. The numbers did favor this outcome, but the betting masses felt quite certain.
My usual boring signature: Nothing
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Nov 6th, 2020, 10:01 AM
#197
Re: Presidential Debates
Looks like Decision Desk has called it Biden: https://results.decisiondeskhq.com/
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Nov 6th, 2020, 10:47 AM
#198
Re: Presidential Debates
You have to congratulate Biden. Not every candidate can pull in 200% of the registered voters in so many precincts.
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Nov 6th, 2020, 10:50 AM
#199
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Nov 6th, 2020, 10:52 AM
#200
Re: Presidential Debates
Originally Posted by dilettante
You have to congratulate Biden. Not every candidate can pull in 200% of the registered voters in so many precincts.
Funny how that happened specifically in the areas that provided same-day registration. It's almost like people who weren't already registered voters turned up to register and vote at the same time. Are you going to be claiming that Biden swept a bunch of Trump votes off the edge of the flat Earth next?
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