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Thread: Presidential Debates

  1. #121
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    I think there's media bias in both directions. On the face of it that screenshot makes it pretty hard to deny that there was a left leaning bias at play there. On the flip side, watch Fox news for half an hour to see the same bias reversed. We just tend to notice it when it doesn't support our own confirmation bias.

    I'm a left leaning liberal (for context, in the UK liberal is basically the equivalent of a pure centrist in the US if you ignore the effects of the differing Overton windows). For me, the debate I see on social media and media outlet "Have Your Say" sections just consists of both sides competing to claim that they're the bigger victim.
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  2. #122
    Super Moderator jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    Quote Originally Posted by dday9 View Post
    Many of you know that I will not be voting for either Trump or Biden, so I really don't have a dog in this fight. I talk to a wide variety of people who I disagree with (in person, not on social media), ranging from nationalist Trump lovers, to the religious right, to climate alarmist, to progressives.

    I feel like knowing and talking to these people help me challenge my own beliefs and at the end of the day we can still be friends. I think this is because there is a mutual understanding that when we discuss politics, we talk to listen instead of just talking to "score points".

    My friends who are on the mainstream right, will constantly send me stuff about bias in the media. Most of what they send me, I will glance over and immediately right off. But it is difficult when I run into something myself and immediately say "wait a second, something is wrong here"
    Attachment 179039

    This screenshot was taken from the "trending on Bing" section, where I get a lot of my trending news. The dichotomy between Trump's "combative town hall" and Biden's "Biden lays out vision" is stark. To be honest, the only reason I bring it up is because I've seen this happen a few times now within the past couple of weeks.

    What's bad is if I were to post this on social media, American's are so incredibly polarized that half of the people on my news feed would say that I'm taking sides with Trump even though I have no intention on supporting him.

    </rant>
    Your implication would definitely be valid if both town halls had been effectively the same and those two stories were from the same person or outlet. On the first point, they definitely weren't. On the second point, do you know whether they were or not? The fact that two stories are trending on Bing doesn't mean that the two have any specific connection to each other so, if they weren't, who exactly is showing the bias there?

  3. #123
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    On the flip side, watch Fox news for half an hour to see the same bias reversed.
    That hasn't been true in many, many years and it continues to wane. Yes, Fox still has a bias, but it is nothing compared to pretty much every newspaper left, CNN, Comcast's outlets, CBS, ABC, PBS, NPR, or BBC's outlets.

    Fox has an awful tone that makes me cringe and still has its biases though their bias seems split between Trump and the anti-Trump establishment GOP. Despite that, they have made great strides toward a legitimate news organization unlike the corporate pro-war anti-worker neoliberal propaganda outlets still marketing themselves as somehow "left."

    Trump is a tool (in more senses than one ) but he is the only pain the forces of evil have felt in 40 years. He is the stink bomb the people have thrown into the midst of the corrupt establishment, while Biden epitomizes their corruption and disdain for the 99%.

  4. #124
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    You begin to come into focus.

    I guess I'm just one of the establishment. I never really thought of myself that way. It's kind of cool, really. Can I get a pin? A t-shirt? Secret handshake?

    More seriously, though. I've largely benefitted from the policies that the US has pursued since I've been alive. The workers seem to lose rights as unions get undermined, but I'm not in a unionized industry, nor do I have any relatives that are. Some of the unions get a complacent, and some have certainly been corrupt, but in general they are being undermined by conservatives. Much of what I have benefitted from falls under the general umbrella of socialism (or education, that's the other umbrella that covers what I have gained), which is also being steadily (and futilely) attacked by conservatives. I like a dash of socialism, though not too much. Too much becomes oppressive. Too little is a different kind of oppressive. It's kind of like salt, in that regard.

    I have my views, my biases, my preferences, and so on, but when I really look at it, I don't see the evil. I see policies that have largely benefitted me. I'm not particularly corrupt. What do I really have to be angry about?
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  5. #125
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    Nah, you just enjoy the privileges the neoliberal establishment bestows on those of your class.

    Stuff like cheap goods created by exploiting cheap overseas labor (often child labor for even better rates) where the resulting pollution, mining destruction, etc. is Not In My Back Yard. Illegal immigrant farm and domestic labor exploitation working cheaper than even legal migrant labor. And then we have the military actions related to keeping overseas labor markets and natural resources open to abuse, more pollution and military actions supporting global shipping, etc.

    By depressing the domestic labor market they keep prices low for you, stretching your own privileged paycheck. Meanwhile opportunity dries up for more and more families, especially the more vulnerable near the bottom of the skills ladder. As your Saint Hillary said about the necks you stand on in a rare moment of honesty "Ignore those deplorables, they're beneath us."

    Yes, colonialism looks great to the colonizers. Of course when they come for you you'll start crying "What happened?"

    It doesn't have to be this way and people know it. They want the colonialism to end.

  6. #126
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    Even if it is replaced by totalitarianism?
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  7. #127
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    It doesn't have to be like this, but as long as it doesn't change to the Khmer Rouge policy of killing all the intellectuals, I'd end up doing well under any other system, as well. Therefore, while I do benefit from the current situation, I also support any move to make it more equitable. My happiness doesn't depend on the abuse of others. Get rid of the abuse, and I'll still be happy. We should try to get rid of that abuse, but we shouldn't do it by killing off everybody who isn't abused.

    Lift up all the boats, it's fine with me. Lift the lower boats more, that's fine, as well. Lower all the boats to the lowest level....that's not fine.
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  8. #128
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    I guess I'm just one of the establishment.
    Happens to the best of us. You crossed that Rubicon when you agreed to become a mod.

    @Dil, I agree with alot (pretty much all, in fact) of what you said in post 125. Growing up in Nigeria and seeing what inequality can really look like in the extreme, I'm keenly aware of just how much privilege we enjoy and I wish more people from the West would spend some time examining the underbelly of the third world. It's WAY worse than most people think it is. I also agree with you that globalisation disproportionately impacts the less well off in the West.

    I disagree with laying the blame at the door of globalisation, though, for two main reasons:-

    1. International trade benefits the third world. I don't think the pay out is fairly distributed by any stretch of the imagination, but the third world does receive it's meagre slice. I think we should be doing much more to ensure fair trade and, given our colonial past, measures like writing off national debts feels like the least we should be doing. These aren't really arguments against Globalisation, though, they're arguments for more of it, just in a fair and more equitable manner.

    2. I don't think globalisation is a policy, it's a reality. As long as the level of inequity in the world is as stark as it is, it is going to be cheaper to outsource manufacturing, services etc to the third world. The only way to prevent that is to make it unattractive to deal with the rest of the world via tariffs... but all this does is enhance wages in the West with a corresponding increase in prices. For the prices to remain the same would require a depression of wages in the west (albeit at a higher rate of employment). In essence, it's a zero sum game where nobody benefits.

    The truth about tariffs is that they're simply a tax take for the government. I guess you could argue that the spending of that tax take could be targeted to those the less well off in the West but then you're really into a debate about big vs small government - the fact that the tax take came from tariffs is really incidental at that point.

    I'm curious, though, what would your measures to counter globalisation look like?
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Oct 19th, 2020 at 09:40 AM.
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  9. #129
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    That hasn't been true in many, many years and it continues to wane. Yes, Fox still has a bias, but it is nothing compared to pretty much every newspaper left, CNN, Comcast's outlets, CBS, ABC, PBS, NPR, or BBC's outlets.
    My god it takes nerve to say that. Faux News is the same as Trump state TV. It is all Trump all the time. They are the secondary white house staff.
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  10. #130
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    I'm not sure this planet has the resources to lift everybody to a moderate level.

    I was reading about the road development in Egypt, the other night. People can't protest, and the roads are ugly, but there are these new roads. That got me thinking about life in some other countries. As a person who has lived for a summer in a tent, a month in a shower, and other odd places, I know what it would be like for a time that is not too short, yet not all that long. It wasn't totally optional, in either of those cases. To be sure, I've spent months in a tent voluntarily, but there have been a few times when it was just the best alternative, so not truly optional. Still, it was much more optional than a whole lot of people, even in the US, get. I always had something to fall back on, even if I didn't want to. It's different when there's a net under you.

    But there's always a net under me because of where I was born, when I was born, who I was born to, and an element of chance. The majority of the world has less of a net, or no net at all. I'm well aware that there are circles of discrimination, and that I'm in the next to innermost circle, and therefore nearly the least discriminated against group that the world has ever seen (I have white, male, US citizen (developed world), highly educated, tall, very healthy, and reasonably well off, the one class even less discriminated against would be independently wealthy). We talk about addressing some of the inequality based on the first three, and I talked about it by addressing the fourth, but that won't do it all.

    Some debate whether or not there really is enough in the world to elevate everybody. There may be, but only if we don't all require some resource that is greatly limited. For example, if we all wanted something made of steel, there probably is enough for everybody. If we all wanted something using lithium, then there may be enough for everybody. If we all wanted something made of helium...well, there isn't enough for everybody. Fortunately, we're a bit up in the air over helium, but that's just one light example. There are plenty of other elements that are equally scarce. We may not be able to give everybody a new gizmo if that gizmo requires that element.

    Education would fix that problem, too, by the way. Education fixes everything.
    Last edited by Shaggy Hiker; Oct 19th, 2020 at 11:02 AM.
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  11. #131
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    Education would fix that problem, too, by the way. Education fixes everything.
    I firmly believe that. I think the internet will be what the printing press was in giving the "average" person a chance to reach "a moderate level".
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  12. #132
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    The internet is fertilizer, not education.

    (think about that just as long as you want, no meaning is off the table)
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  13. #133
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    The internet is fertilizer, not education.

    (think about that just as long as you want, no meaning is off the table)
    Couldn't you say the same thing about a library? If that was your meaning.
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  14. #134
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    That was only one possible meaning. Another would suggest that books don't make good fertilizer because of the poor carbon to nitrogen ratio.
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  15. #135
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    That was only one possible meaning. Another would suggest that books don't make good fertilizer because of the poor carbon to nitrogen ratio.
    BS is pretty good fertilizer...
    Please remember next time...elections matter!

  16. #136
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    My god it takes nerve to say that. Faux News is the same as Trump state TV. It is all Trump all the time. They are the secondary white house staff.
    Meh... they're more the Republican Party Press Corp... it's just that Trump is "head" at the moment, so they're his shill... Once he's out, they'll drop him... may not turn against him, but they'll drop him.

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  17. #137
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    Meh... they're more the Republican Party Press Corp... it's just that Trump is "head" at the moment, so they're his shill... Once he's out, they'll drop him... may not turn against him, but they'll drop him.

    -tg
    I wondered about that just the other day...I think he'll get his own show. Or maybe him and Tucker Carlson together.
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  18. #138
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    If Trump loses, we'll see the sorest loser that has ever been.
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    If Trump loses, we'll see the sorest loser that has ever been.
    Sure, but really... who cares?

    Aside from a small fringe most people are pretty disgusted by Trump as a human being. Some of that is reality, some is manufactured by a co-opted press. Enough is reality though to let him fend for himself. However I'm not convinced he's much worse than the reality of many other politicians who are better at covering who they really are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Education would fix that problem, too, by the way. Education fixes everything.
    Education has done pretty well... for itself. And Wall Street traders in equities made up of bundled student debt shielded from bankruptcy.

    Actual education could be a blessing but there is a long way to go. Too many "underwater basketweaving" majors and too much political indoctrination and recruitment goes on today. Too much pandering to the organized crime (so-called "sports") industry. Far too much pandering to land developers and landlords creating high-rent high-rise private student housing. Too low admissions criteria and a resulting lowering of the curve to keep the money flowing.

    I don't think even State post-secondary schools should be free, but they could be a whole lot cheaper. To get there costs need to be radically lowered so that scholarships and assistance programs can help keep more people out of unmanageable debt. Put more emphasis on vocational programs for those not interested in an academic track.

    Then you have the mess feeding into post-secondary education today. Primary and secondary schools place far too much emphasis on memorization to pass generic tests so even the dumbest and laziest can win that certificate of attendance. If more flunk out have them work for a year then if they are ready petition for re-admission.

    Ok, that last part wasn't well thought out. But there has to be some answer. I think a lot of school failure is due to lack of motivation and some sort of break (that isn't just a vacation) might be better than just coasting them through. Teachers are obviously important but to learn students have to take advantage of the opportunity. Kids aren't robots awaiting programming, or shouldn't be.

  20. #140
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    LOL gotta love that line "Chicken soup for the suburban liberal."



    I know you miss these video clips.

  21. #141
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    I think a lot of school failure is due to lack of motivation and some sort of break (that isn't just a vacation) might be better than just coasting them through. Teachers are obviously important but to learn students have to take advantage of the opportunity. Kids aren't robots awaiting programming, or shouldn't be.
    Step 1: get rid of all the %&$%$ standardized testing.
    Seriously. Teachers aren't teaching material any more. They are teaching to the tests... the kids then spend the last 4-6 weeks of each school year taking these stupid tests. At least that's how it is around here. There's the district test. The State tests. Federal ones. This one, that one. Ol' McDonald had a farm.... oi... it's insane. And THEN they still have to take their normal finals and EOC (end of course) tests on top of all that. ***?

    -tg
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  22. #142
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    I'm curious, though, what would your measures to counter globalisation look like?
    It isn't a simple issue of trade but unbalanced trade.

    And it goes both ways. Look at Germany's export policies to African nations, for example dairy products dumped at prices so low local producers can no longer compete.

    The car I drive has an engine and drive train made of parts produced in the U.S. and Japan. The car was assembled in the U.K. using more U.K.- and Japanese-origin parts as well as parts made in Malaysia and who knows where else? This is unescapable in realistic terms. In this case I'm not as worried about profiteering from cheap labor as much as possibly leaving a plume of pollution behind where regulation is lax. The opportunity for work got shared around.

    But, and this is my big butt, er, but, I think both industrial and agricultural production should take place as near the point of consumption as practical. Of course nobody sane demands that all of the coconut consumed in Minnesota be produced locally, just as they shouldn't be discouraged from exporting their iron ore.

    It isn't a question of isolationism, but opposition to interventionism. And I think the signs are clear that todays commercial interventionism is behind an awful lot of military interventionism.


    I don't see any path toward balanced fair trade besides import tariffs though. The multinational corporations sponsor laughable treaties and deals like NAFTA, the TPP, CETA, and on and on.

    Canadians are no saints. Look at the numbers of indigenous peoples they have relocated in the last 40 years for the sake of mega-farming, mining, petroleum extraction, hydroelectric dams, and on and on.

  23. #143
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    A true neoliberal academic:


  24. #144
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    this is my big butt
    Don't be so hard on yourself... you look lovely in that outfit.

    I agree with almost all of that, I just don't see tariffs as the answer if the concern is the welfare of the third world. But, like you, I'm not sure I've really got a better one. Writing off third world debt would be a good start (we've promised to do this several times but have never followed through). Other than that fair trade would be the big fix, but that's a goal rather than a measure and I'm not sure what the measure is that would achieve the goal.
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  25. #145
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    I don't think that writing off the debt is a great solution for a country run by a kleptocracy. I do think it would help for those making positive strides towards democracy. In fact, I think it would help more than just that country. There are countries like Mali, which are mired in problems, but green shoots of progress spring up here and there. If those saw a reward of debt relief, it might reinforce them. If countries that saw peaceful democratic transitions of power saw a debt reduction, it might encourage their neighbors. For instance, if the US has a peaceful transfer of power and sees a debt reduction as a result, it might encourage other countries to do the same.
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    Junior Member wossy's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    Couldn't you say the same thing about a library?
    In an ideal world, the internet is the perfect library.

    I guess something went a bit wrong.
    On the bright side, I've still got pessimism and despair to fall back on.

  27. #147
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    There sure is some funny stuff out there.



    As "No Jungle" Joe says: "C'mon, man!"

  28. #148
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    We needed that mute button on Trump three and a half years ago...
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  29. #149

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    Re: Presidential Debates

    I have no idea why Biden is doing this debate. Trump canceled the last one, wouldn't be much fallout if Biden would have said that he is done with the debates. I see no benefit in standing up there and giving Trump a platform on national TV to spread his lies and insults for an hour or two. Nothing new will be learned and both sides will claim victory.

  30. #150
    Super Moderator dday9's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    I don't see any political gain to be made by Biden attending the debate. He needed to do one, but Trump gave him the perfect excuse not to do anymore by not doing a remote debate.

    Personally, I would've like to have seen the commission on presidential debates penalize Trump by saying "Fine, you don't want to do a remote debate? The person polling in third place would love to be on the debate stage so we'll include her." But that was just wishful thinking on my end.
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  31. #151
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    More debate news, though most of it backs up into the primaries:


  32. #152
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    A look at Biden and Trump from the left:


  33. #153
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    Interesting place I ran into today on reddit. Definitely more focused on american politics:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/NeutralPolitics/

    It has rules like:

    Source your facts. If you're claiming something to be true, you need to back it up by linking to a qualified source. There is no "common knowledge" exception, and anecdotal evidence is not allowed.
    and

    Address the arguments, not the person. The subject of your sentence should be "the evidence" or "this source" or some other noun directly related to the topic of conversation. "You" statements are suspect.
    Seems a really level-headed and actually neutral subreddit worth checking out if you want to try and get both sides of a story.

  34. #154
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    It's going to have to become this way. We are rapidly approaching the point where no event is guaranteed to be true, no matter who describes it or how.
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  35. #155
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    It's going to have to become this way. We are rapidly approaching the point where no event is guaranteed to be true, no matter who describes it or how.
    That is also true about digital media. You just can't trust that what you see isn't computer generated.
    Please remember next time...elections matter!

  36. #156
    Junior Member wossy's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    If this place ever becomes dependent on digital technology for communication we're done for. Keep your eyes peeled ppl.
    On the bright side, I've still got pessimism and despair to fall back on.

  37. #157
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    At the risk of this being a "Dewey Beats Truman" post it looks like Biden won. I just listened to a commentator that was wondering about Trump calling everything rigged, denying the loss, all those things. I don't think that will happen if the electoral votes are clear. I think Trump is basically a coward and won't want to fight a battle that big where for the most part things will go against him.
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  38. #158

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    Re: Presidential Debates

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    At the risk of this being a "Dewey Beats Truman" post it looks like Biden won. I just listened to a commentator that was wondering about Trump calling everything rigged, denying the loss, all those things. I don't think that will happen if the electoral votes are clear. I think Trump is basically a coward and won't want to fight a battle that big where for the most part things will go against him.
    Biden's lead in Nevada is only @ 7,500. or .6%. Hard to call that one and without it Biden probably loses. Biden is still 300,000+ behind in Pennsylvania.

    I just listened to a commentator that was wondering about Trump calling everything rigged, denying the loss, all those things. I don't think that will happen if the electoral votes are clear. I think Trump is basically a coward and won't want to fight a battle that big where for the most part things will go against him.
    That seems overly optimistic. I don't know what in the last four years would make you think that. He has already filed law suits and remember he has the supreme court in his pocket.
    Last edited by wes4dbt; Nov 4th, 2020 at 05:31 PM.

  39. #159
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    Biden is still likely to win Nevada, and could also win Georgia or NC, since those are close and the votes that haven't been counted are in the heavily democratic areas. That's true for all three. If he wins any of those, he wins.

    We'll see, though. It'll be at least another day.
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  40. #160
    Super Moderator jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    Biden's lead in Nevada is only @ 7,500. or .6%. Hard to call that one and without it Biden probably loses. Biden is still 300,000+ behind in Pennsylvania.
    The good news is that the last votes to be counted will likely favour Biden. With Biden ahead in Arizona and Nevada, if Trump prevents any more counting then Biden wins, but if counting goes ahead then Biden likely wins more comfortably. It's by no means guaranteed but that's the way it looks.

    It's ironic that it's always the right bleating about states' rights and now a big chunk of the right are now going to be supporting their dear leader in trying to quash the rights of states to conduct the election in accordance with their own laws. Personally, I think that a federal election should be conducted under federal law so that the rules are the same for everyone that is not how it is so the cry-babies can just suck it up. If this election genuinely were fair then Trumps defeat would already be confirmed by a significant margin.

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