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Thread: Presidential Debates

  1. #41
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    Quote Originally Posted by dday9 View Post
    I'm glad you have a good idea on what Kayne is doing. Sometimes I think that not even Kayne knows what Kayne is doing.

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    Re: Presidential Debates

    Quote Originally Posted by dday9 View Post
    • The Libertarian ticket garnered 4,489,341 votes or 3.28% in 2016
    • Perot got 18.9% in 1992 and 8.4% in 1996
    • Ralph Nader is wildly considered the spoiler in 2000
    Perot was probably the last challenger the duopoly could not suppress. Low single-digit results are probably all that can be expected any more and that's all we have seen.

  3. #43
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    Quote Originally Posted by dday9 View Post
    I'm glad you have a good idea on what Kayne is doing. Sometimes I think that not even Kayne knows what Kayne is doing.
    Sometimes????

    As to third party, I do think there's going to be an opening for a third party candidate in 2024. No matter what happens in this election (unless Trump starts a civil war), the Republican party is going to fracture in 2024. The Democratic party also has some fault lines running through it, so the parties could rearrange themselves, as has happened in the past, and possibly bring out a third party. There would be a fiscally conservative party, a socially conservative party, and a progressive party, with D and R pulling apart into those three. Of course, the way the US works, one of the three would fail pretty quickly, leaving just two, but the race could be three-way for a time.
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  4. #44
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    This is my first time watching a presidential debate... is it always this awful? They should be shutting off the mic so the other person can't interrupt... like not even the moderator can talk.

    Also have to note that Biden does not seem senile at all so far.

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    Re: Presidential Debates

    To the rest of the universe - please don't hold this trainwreck against all of us.

    Sincerely,
    John Q. Citizen

  6. #46
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    Well it's over.. that was hard to watch, but I got what I wanted out of it. The idea that Biden is senile seems completely far fetched.

    It would be nice to hear more about specific plans on how each person is going to make things better, rather than just saying how the opponent will make things worse, especially since both sides are only destroying straw men of the their opponents ideas.

  7. #47
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    3rd party candidates have played an important part in American politics
    It's surprising to hear you say that because the impression that reaches us in the UK is that US third parties are an irrelevance. Not because they don't actually win but we get the impression that they don't sway the debate either. Hearing you say otherwise seems like a good thing to me.

    I think third parties are important. They're obviously important in a PR system but I feel they help prevent polarisation in a First Past the Post system like the UK's too as they act as a break on either of the two main parties swinging too far to their chosen extreme.



    And yeah, that debate was a total train wreck.

    Trying to take something from it though:-
    I do think that Biden came across as a little dithery but not enough to do him any real harm and Trump just came across as Trump.

    I don't think there were any good moments for either candidate but both had their clangers. The biggest being Trump telling the Proud Boys to "Stand Back and Stand By" (the first half of which I guess could be viewed a very weak condemnation but the addition of "Stand By" is straight up sinister).

    I think Biden's worst moment was at the end when I think he got cornered into saying he didn't support the Green New Deal - though I'm genuinely unsure if I heard that correctly. I think what he was trying to get at was that he supported much of it but wouldn't follow it blindly but (if I did hear it correctly) that was a total gift of a soundbite the Trump campaign will use against him.
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  8. #48
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    Quote Originally Posted by OptionBase1 View Post
    To the rest of the universe - please don't hold this trainwreck against all of us.

    Sincerely,
    John Q. Citizen
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    I did hear Biden correctly on the Green New Deal. Soundbite at 1:45. If you watch the whole video you get a far more nuanced take on what he meant (basically what I was saying above) but those 3 second are the soundbite you're going to hear from the Trump campaign.
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  10. #50
    Super Moderator dday9's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    It's surprising to hear you say that because the impression that reaches us in the UK is that US third parties are an irrelevance. Not because they don't actually win but we get the impression that they don't sway the debate either. Hearing you say otherwise seems like a good thing to me.
    I'm not naive to the fact that it is practically impossible for a third party candidate to win at any substantial level in the foreseeable future. The US' voting system is a winner take all system, there is no incentive to vote third party if every election is "the most impactful election of our lifetime" unless you're in a situation like mine where Louisiana is going to go for Trump in double-digits or if you live in Vermont where they'll go for Biden in double-digits.

    What is probably the most frustrating is that the commission on presidential debates claims to be nonpartisan when in fact they're bipartisan towards the Rs and Ds. After Perot's performance in the 90s, they changed the threshold to be on the debate stage so high that it is inconceivable for anyone other than Rs or Ds to be on the stage. What's worse is that there is a policy of limiting the general election debates to candidates who are at 15% at the polls, but almost no polling outlet includes third party candidates in their polls. In case you're curious, the last third party candidate to meet the 15% threshold in September and October (when debates would be happening) would be George Wallace back in 1968 or 52 years ago.
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    Quote Originally Posted by dday9 View Post
    What is probably the most frustrating is that the commission on presidential debates claims to be nonpartisan when in fact they're bipartisan towards the Rs and Ds. After Perot's performance in the 90s, they changed the threshold to be on the debate stage so high that it is inconceivable for anyone other than Rs or Ds to be on the stage. What's worse is that there is a policy of limiting the general election debates to candidates who are at 15% at the polls, but almost no polling outlet includes third party candidates in their polls. In case you're curious, the last third party candidate to meet the 15% threshold in September and October (when debates would be happening) would be George Wallace back in 1968 or 52 years ago.
    Not only did they change the threshold, but when someone does reach the threshold, they change the polls to purposefully exclude the other parties so they can't possibly meet the threshold.

    "Sorry, you can't be admitted, you didn't meet the polling numbers."
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  12. #52
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    The biggest being Trump telling the Proud Boys to "Stand Back and Stand By" (the first half of which I guess could be viewed a very weak condemnation but the addition of "Stand By" is straight up sinister).
    The "proud Boys" jumped right on it like he issued a license...

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    Re: Presidential Debates

    I'd need to watch it again if I can find it, but I'm sure Biden said something close to "I never said I'm for a Green New Deal. Now here's what is in my Green New Deal..."

    But maybe I was just laughing too hard to get that exactly as delivered.

  14. #54
    Super Moderator jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    I'd need to watch it again if I can find it, but I'm sure Biden said something close to "I never said I'm for a Green New Deal. Now here's what is in my Green New Deal..."

    But maybe I was just laughing too hard to get that exactly as delivered.
    If my choices were between someone who doesn't support the GND but accepts that climate change is a man-made phenomenon and someone who doesn't believe that climate change is even happening then I know who I'd be voting for. That said, I'm not sure that Trump even has an opinion either way on climate change. As on most subjects, I think that he's just saying what he thinks will get him the most votes because all he really cares about is himself. I'm not naïve enough to not realise that all politicians will do that to an extent but there aren't many with a high profile who come anywhere near Trump's level in that regard.

  15. #55
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    Trump wants applause. Not nuanced support, just pure, unconditional, adulation (probably because that word is close to adultery, which is another favorite of his). He's not going to lead on anything significant, because all he wants is worship, which you don't get by tackling difficult, long-term, problems. So, every position he takes is based on short term, effusive, praise and nothing deeper.
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  16. #56
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    "Green New Deal" is not proper English. I don't know how Americans can say it out loud without visibly cringing.

    Perhaps they do it "on accident".
    On the bright side, I've still got pessimism and despair to fall back on.

  17. #57
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    I'm not sure that Trump even has an opinion either way on climate change.
    I wonder why he withdrew the US from the climate change agreement then?
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  18. #58
    Super Moderator dday9's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    Trump has a fairly obvious pattern when it comes to agreements, if he didn't write it then it's terrible and if he does write it then it is the best deal ever struck. Just take a look at NAFTA and TPP.

    I think that it was insignificant that the Paris Accords were about climate change, it could've legitimately been about any other topic and he would've said and done the same exact thing.
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    Is it really a debate if one person never stops talking??? Do we really need two more???

  20. #60
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    People are already claiming Biden was wearing a wire lol.

    *edit* and before anyone comes in claiming it is true, here is a clip that clearly shows it is a crease in his shirt:

    https://www.c-span.org/video/?c49107...lip-biden-wire

    You can even see the same fold on the opposite side.
    Last edited by kfcSmitty; Sep 30th, 2020 at 02:10 PM.

  21. #61
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    They were actually claiming that before the debate began. I got an email about it, which was passed on by a friend who sends me all the right wing stuff.

    Nothing better than to claim there was a wire a few hours before the debate began.
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    All you need to know in under 10 minutes:


  23. #63
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    Quote Originally Posted by wossy View Post
    "Green New Deal" is not proper English.
    It is perfectly proper. The New Deal was a set of policies proposed and enacted by FDR in the 30s. The Green New Deal is a modern version of the New Deal that is environmentally conscious and therefore green. If it were to be called the New Green Deal then that would imply that it was a modern version of the Green Deal that was new. There is no such thing so that name would be nonsense.

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    Re: Presidential Debates

    I'm not naive to the fact that it is practically impossible for a third party candidate to win at any substantial level in the foreseeable future...
    I didn't mean to imply that you were naive and (with the exception of the last two elections when issues at play were so important I felt I should use my vote with pragmatism rather than idealism) I've been voting third party my whole life. The point of voting third party isn't to win, it's to move the needle. All I was saying was that the impression we get over here is that your third parties don't event achieve that. To hear you say otherwise is a positive as far as I'm concerned.

    What is probably the most frustrating is that the commission on presidential debates claims to be nonpartisan when in fact they're bipartisan towards the Rs and Ds.
    I agree. Over here we've only been experimenting with pre-election debates for the last 2 or 3 elections and they've tried out various configurations from just the two main parties to all the parties with various degrees of success. All the parties turned into a bit of a wall of noise so didn't work particularly well - the small parties got lost in the noise and the Tory leader didn't even bother turning up. When they do just the two main parties it feels like there are important voices not being heard and it can become bi-partisan. My favourite so far was the three main parties when my man Cleggy aced it, but I'm a LibDem and we're typically at number 3 so I'm probably a bit bias on that.

    Do we really need two more???
    Over here there are lots of pundits predicting they won't take place because this one was such an embarrassment for all concerned. I suspect you're getting them whether you like it or not though. I doubt I'll bother staying up for another one though.

    It is perfectly proper.
    It's proper but goddamn is it some ugly wordage. Also, pretty sure there should be a comma in there.
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    Super Moderator jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    Also, pretty sure there should be a comma in there.
    No there shouldn't. The point I was trying to make was that the name is not describing a deal that is new and green but rather a new deal that is green. The reason that the adjectives are seemingly the wrong way around is the very same reason that there should not be a comma.

  26. #66
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    That debate was a farce. An appalling state of affairs that neither candidate could act in a way that was decent and polite let alone Presidential.

    Trump alone is a disaster for America, not his policies, just the man. It is similar to having the antiChrist running your country. As a person he is an appalling man that cannot open his mouth without drivel and bile both pouring out. The character of the man is clear. Regardless of politics and your right/left leaning, if this isn't apparent to the masses then America has a serious problem with the fundamental intelligence of the voters or the country is simply going to the dogs.

    The opinion of the rest of the world appears to be one of disgust that America has fallen so low. The genuine perception is that we are seeing the beginning of the end of the USA, if it can't conduct itself in a polite and non-self destructive way, what future is there for it.

    America was always vibrant, positive, a little naive but brave with healthy self belief and a natural inclination to do what it believed was good, even if this was often misplaced by self-interest.

    Now, we have the rot (or is it evil) exposed at the core of its democracy. You can't have an evil buffoon at the core, who is the leading politician and head of state combined, it is too much power for one man and attracts the wrong sort of person, power hungry and vile.

    Root and branch reform of your democracy is required. It is rotten.

  27. #67
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    That debate was a farce. An appalling state of affairs that neither candidate could act in a way that was decent and polite let alone Presidential.

    Trump alone is a disaster for America, not his policies, just the man. It is similar to having the antiChrist running your country. As a person he is an appalling man that cannot open his mouth without drivel and bile both pouring out. The character of the man is clear. Regardless of politics and your right/left leaning, if this isn't apparent to the masses then America has a serious problem with the fundamental intelligence of the voters or the country is simply going to the dogs.

    The opinion of the rest of the world appears to be one of disgust that America has fallen so low. The genuine perception is that we are seeing the beginning of the end of the USA, if it can't conduct itself in a polite and non-self destructive way, what future is there for it.

    America was always vibrant, positive, a little naive but brave with healthy self belief and a natural inclination to do what it believed was good, even if this was often misplaced by self-interest.

    Now, we have the rot (or is it evil) exposed at the core of its democracy. You can't have an evil buffoon at the core, who is the leading politician and head of state combined, it is too much power for one man and attracts the wrong sort of person, power hungry and vile.

    Root and branch reform of your democracy is required. It is rotten.
    I don't disagree with a single thing you posted. It seems like these days every family has an A-hole.
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  28. #68
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    This is a right-wing site, but I feel it is a good breakdown of the debate, they're pretty honest about Trump's failings.

    https://youtu.be/u_vRW75LH4c?t=6825

    I feel it is a little more relevant than some comedian trying to be relevant by making a 7 minute monologue about masks that completely misses the point of the comments. The big thing I like about the Daily Wire video is that these are Trump supporters talking about what they didn't like about Trump (and obviously some stuff about Biden), as opposed to someone who is anti-Biden talking about everything he doesn't like about Biden.

  29. #69
    Super Moderator dday9's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    The opinion of the rest of the world appears to be one of disgust that America has fallen so low. The genuine perception is that we are seeing the beginning of the end of the USA, if it can't conduct itself in a polite and non-self destructive way, what future is there for it.
    This line of reasoning is something that I disagree with on two levels. The first being that Trump is a uniquely divisive president. I don't disagree that he is incredibly divisive, but it isn't as if history started 2016/11/08. Literally every politician before him claimed to be a unifying candidate but turned out to be incredibly divisive and partisan. You have "we're not red states or blue states, we're the United States" of Obama, you have the "return to normalcy" of George W. Bush, and "For people, for change" of Clinton (I could keep going).

    The second being that the beginning of the end was under the Nixon campaign in the 70s when we got off of the gold standard. An inflation of 1-4% is not sustainable if the financial institutions that make up the FED continue to print money that we cannot back, there will be a day of reckoning we the "full faith of the US government" is lost.
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    Two years old, but perhaps truer than ever:

    Yes, let's wipe out Trump. But take neoliberal Democrats with him, too

    Amid an upsurge of populist energy that has alarmed the Democratic establishment, a new wave of left-leaning insurgents have been using Democratic primaries to wage a fierce war on the party’s corporate wing. And, as in past presidential primary battles, many Democratic consultants, politicians and pundits have insisted that the party must prioritize unity and resist grassroots pressure to support a more forceful progressive agenda.

    Not surprisingly, much of that analysis comes from those with career stakes in the status quo. Their crude attempts to stamp out any dissent or intraparty discord negates a stark truth: liberal America’s pattern of electing corporate Democrats – rather than progressives – has been a big part of the problem that led to Trump and that continues to make America’s economic and political system a neo-feudal dystopia.

    Dislodging those corporate Democrats, then, is not some counterproductive distraction – it is a critical front in the effort to actually make America great again.
    If you don't want another Trump after this one gets done four years from now the answer is simple: walk away.

    If more of the populists currently hewing to the tainted major parties could find their common ground and learn to compromise to achieve it they might do wonderful things. A more cooperative and positive message might even begin to win over the low information voters who bobblehead along under the Blue or Red banners today because they have nowhere else to turn.

    The coming post-Trump era could see the rise of a new party representing people over corporate power. One concerned with dealing with issues in our own back yard rather than exhibiting belligerence outside it to prop up an international corporate agenda.

    Under such a threat of losing influence and privilege I'd expect the fatcat Blue and Red to come together as an opposing Purple party, representing the bruises they inflict upon poor and working people globally. After all, we've seen all those Red fatcats endorsing Biden and even appearing at his coronation last August.

    Ask yourself: How Purple are you?

  31. #71
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    Quote Originally Posted by dday9 View Post
    This line of reasoning is something that I disagree with on two levels. The first being that Trump is a uniquely divisive president. I don't disagree that he is incredibly divisive, but it isn't as if history started 2016/11/08. Literally every politician before him claimed to be a unifying candidate but turned out to be incredibly divisive and partisan. You have "we're not red states or blue states, we're the United States" of Obama, you have the "return to normalcy" of George W. Bush, and "For people, for change" of Clinton (I could keep going).
    You're too young to say that...but I still agree with it. Reagan was a very popular president, and it is now clear that he was VERY able to work with a Democratic congress (when the business of the day was done, the whiskey came out with Tip, and that was really helpful). However, he was also very divisive for the time. Still, every subsequent president has split the two sides further and farther apart (can't decide which is right, so I went with both to be funny). I don't think it was their doing, though. Clinton did do some very bipartisan things, W had his chance and kind of took it to some extent, and Obama was to the right of Reagan on plenty of things, yet couldn't get any consensus going. I also don't think it was the people on their own that divided things. I have plenty of right wing friends, and we can get along just fine, though there are some subjects we don't talk too seriously about.

    So what caused the increasing division? I'm inclined to say that it was either Lee Atwater, or the internet.

    The second being that the beginning of the end was under the Nixon campaign in the 70s when we got off of the gold standard. An inflation of 1-4% is not sustainable if the financial institutions that make up the FED continue to print money that we cannot back, there will be a day of reckoning we the "full faith of the US government" is lost.
    Now there's a substantive subject for discussion. I'm a deficit hawk, so I'm inclined to agree with your criticism of the Fed action (I don't think it's an acronym, is it?), but not your criticism of getting off the gold standard. I tend to agree with the writings that suggest the gold standard was unsustainable and had to be abandoned. Being on the standard certainly didn't allow us to avoid anything, as there were devastating depressions while on the standard, it was just harder to deal with them. However, unhinged borrowing....makes me queasy.

    On the other hand, I read The Economist weekly, and the case for borrowing does kind of make sense: We should have seen inflation, we haven't, and there appears like there could well be a reason for that. We may get a warning before things go bad, though whether or not we heed the warning remains to be seen. In the meantime, that government debt seems to be largely a response to the global pool of money looking for somewhere safe to be parked. With negative interest rates on some other safe funds, US debt seems like a safe haven. I have a portion of it, as well. I even made a point of buying bonds with the stimulus check because it amused me to think that the government borrowed money from me to give me money.

    Still, it feel like it is too much. Not right now. Right now, I'd say some deficit spending is quite appropriate, but we know that deficit spending isn't going to end once the economy recovers. The Republicans used to use the phrase "tax and spend" to tar the Democrats, but in the last few Republican administrations, they have taken on the mantle of "borrow and spend", which is FAR worse. Both sides borrow, but Trump and W both took steps that caused the deficit to explode. Reagan did the same, but for slightly better reasons (or less knowledge, depending on how you look at it). At one point, the Republican party believed in fiscal probity. That has been abandoned, and now there is no place for a deficit hawk in either party.
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  32. #72
    PowerPoster yereverluvinuncleber's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    I don't disagree with a single thing you posted. It seems like these days every family has an A-hole.
    Yes but the difference is that Boris is just the PM, he isn't head of state. No matter how big headed he is he can never represent or embody the country as a head of state does. We have a Queen and a PM and with that system there is a check and a balance and the PM can't imagine he is GOD.

    Trump is your everything, he is YOUR head of state and he represents America. He unfortunately represents all that is bad about mankind and therefore he ends up by symbolising America in that same vein.

    We have a parliament and Boris can only express his desires with the backing of parliament. In the case of the USA Trump thinks he can do anything, knows that he can do anything and he doesn't care that what he does has a negative effect on ALL that he merely breathes on. What he touches can be corrupted completely and he is YOUR president.

    I am considered right wing but Trump as a person repulses me, nothing to do with his politics. Boris at worst is a bit of a fool but he is clever with it and certainly not evil in any way.

  33. #73
    Super Moderator dday9's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    Trump is your everything, he is YOUR head of state and he represents America. He unfortunately represents all that is bad about mankind and therefore he ends up by symbolising America in that same vein.
    This is because over the past half century the legislative branch has been gradually abdicated its responsibilities to the point to where they'd rather pass non-binding resolutions on hot topic issues.

    In turn, the executive branch has been embolden by increasingly leveraging executive orders from everything from undeclared wars to most recently superseding leasing agreements (i.e. interfering with private contractual obligations). This has had the side effect of the judicial branch gaining large powers because we these executive orders inevitably go to court there are consequences from the rulings.
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  34. #74
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    I'd say Brexit showed that the British system has the same weaknesses, or more, than the US system. In both cases, there are laws, but more importantly, there are standards of behavior that are not coded and which cannot be enforced. Once you get a person who is willing to ignore those norms, they prove to be utterly toothless. Following that, things can spiral down. Once the institutions are undermined, you are on your way to becoming Russia.
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  35. #75
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    Trump is your everything, he is YOUR head of state and he represents America. He unfortunately represents all that is bad about mankind and therefore he ends up by symbolising America in that same vein.
    I think you may be forgetting about the other two branches of the US government
    Please remember next time...elections matter!

  36. #76
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    I think you may be forgetting about the other two branches of the US government
    Only one of them, if things go as expected.
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  37. #77
    PowerPoster yereverluvinuncleber's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    Answer this question (actually I think we can all answer it but why do they still do it?)

    Why are all your current contenders to the Presidency coloured ORANGE?

    What is this orange fetish and why do they think it makes them look good? Can they not see how they look? Everyone else, are you blind? Why would you vote for a man who paints his face orange?

  38. #78
    PowerPoster yereverluvinuncleber's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    In both cases, there are laws, but more importantly, there are standards of behavior that are not coded and which cannot be enforced. Once you get a person who is willing to ignore those norms, they prove to be utterly toothless. Following that, things can spiral down. Once the institutions are undermined, you are on your way to becoming Russia.
    An exaggeration perhaps. You'll find that Boris gently pushes existing boundaries, has his actions tested, checked and then has to back off. His direction is the same, to get a deal from Europe without parliament binding his hands. Ultimately he has achieved that but whatever he does is carried out under the rule of law and without inciting actual hatred. Furthermore, he can speak without injuring the language each time a sentence comes out (which is a benefit compared to Trump).

  39. #79
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    You'll find that Boris gently pushes existing boundaries
    ...gently?! At times he's ridden roughshod over our boundaries. Proroguing parliament was in no way "gentle".

    Ultimately he has achieved that
    ...No he hasn't. At his point the only thing he's actually achieved is that we stand to crash out without a deal. I think we'll probably still manage to reach a deal but to claim that he's achieved a good one is patently false.


    I will say, though, that Boris's behaviour isn't in same ball park as Trump's. It's not even playing the same sport. But it's a pretty low bar to clear.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Oct 2nd, 2020 at 01:54 AM.
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  40. #80
    PowerPoster Arnoutdv's Avatar
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    Re: Presidential Debates

    How the rest of world see these candidates and debates:
    https://twitter.com/HistoryMuppet/st...38783536463873

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