Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst 1234
Results 121 to 151 of 151

Thread: Presidential Debates

  1. #121
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    7,637

    Re: Presidential Debates

    I think there's media bias in both directions. On the face of it that screenshot makes it pretty hard to deny that there was a left leaning bias at play there. On the flip side, watch Fox news for half an hour to see the same bias reversed. We just tend to notice it when it doesn't support our own confirmation bias.

    I'm a left leaning liberal (for context, in the UK liberal is basically the equivalent of a pure centrist in the US if you ignore the effects of the differing Overton windows). For me, the debate I see on social media and media outlet "Have Your Say" sections just consists of both sides competing to claim that they're the bigger victim.
    You can depend upon the Americans to do the right thing. But only after they have exhausted every other possibility - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  2. #122
    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    105,618

    Re: Presidential Debates

    Quote Originally Posted by dday9 View Post
    Many of you know that I will not be voting for either Trump or Biden, so I really don't have a dog in this fight. I talk to a wide variety of people who I disagree with (in person, not on social media), ranging from nationalist Trump lovers, to the religious right, to climate alarmist, to progressives.

    I feel like knowing and talking to these people help me challenge my own beliefs and at the end of the day we can still be friends. I think this is because there is a mutual understanding that when we discuss politics, we talk to listen instead of just talking to "score points".

    My friends who are on the mainstream right, will constantly send me stuff about bias in the media. Most of what they send me, I will glance over and immediately right off. But it is difficult when I run into something myself and immediately say "wait a second, something is wrong here"
    Attachment 179039

    This screenshot was taken from the "trending on Bing" section, where I get a lot of my trending news. The dichotomy between Trump's "combative town hall" and Biden's "Biden lays out vision" is stark. To be honest, the only reason I bring it up is because I've seen this happen a few times now within the past couple of weeks.

    What's bad is if I were to post this on social media, American's are so incredibly polarized that half of the people on my news feed would say that I'm taking sides with Trump even though I have no intention on supporting him.

    </rant>
    Your implication would definitely be valid if both town halls had been effectively the same and those two stories were from the same person or outlet. On the first point, they definitely weren't. On the second point, do you know whether they were or not? The fact that two stories are trending on Bing doesn't mean that the two have any specific connection to each other so, if they weren't, who exactly is showing the bias there?

  3. #123
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    21,584

    Re: Presidential Debates

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    On the flip side, watch Fox news for half an hour to see the same bias reversed.
    That hasn't been true in many, many years and it continues to wane. Yes, Fox still has a bias, but it is nothing compared to pretty much every newspaper left, CNN, Comcast's outlets, CBS, ABC, PBS, NPR, or BBC's outlets.

    Fox has an awful tone that makes me cringe and still has its biases though their bias seems split between Trump and the anti-Trump establishment GOP. Despite that, they have made great strides toward a legitimate news organization unlike the corporate pro-war anti-worker neoliberal propaganda outlets still marketing themselves as somehow "left."

    Trump is a tool (in more senses than one ) but he is the only pain the forces of evil have felt in 40 years. He is the stink bomb the people have thrown into the midst of the corrupt establishment, while Biden epitomizes their corruption and disdain for the 99%.

  4. #124
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    35,347

    Re: Presidential Debates

    You begin to come into focus.

    I guess I'm just one of the establishment. I never really thought of myself that way. It's kind of cool, really. Can I get a pin? A t-shirt? Secret handshake?

    More seriously, though. I've largely benefitted from the policies that the US has pursued since I've been alive. The workers seem to lose rights as unions get undermined, but I'm not in a unionized industry, nor do I have any relatives that are. Some of the unions get a complacent, and some have certainly been corrupt, but in general they are being undermined by conservatives. Much of what I have benefitted from falls under the general umbrella of socialism (or education, that's the other umbrella that covers what I have gained), which is also being steadily (and futilely) attacked by conservatives. I like a dash of socialism, though not too much. Too much becomes oppressive. Too little is a different kind of oppressive. It's kind of like salt, in that regard.

    I have my views, my biases, my preferences, and so on, but when I really look at it, I don't see the evil. I see policies that have largely benefitted me. I'm not particularly corrupt. What do I really have to be angry about?
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  5. #125
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    21,584

    Re: Presidential Debates

    Nah, you just enjoy the privileges the neoliberal establishment bestows on those of your class.

    Stuff like cheap goods created by exploiting cheap overseas labor (often child labor for even better rates) where the resulting pollution, mining destruction, etc. is Not In My Back Yard. Illegal immigrant farm and domestic labor exploitation working cheaper than even legal migrant labor. And then we have the military actions related to keeping overseas labor markets and natural resources open to abuse, more pollution and military actions supporting global shipping, etc.

    By depressing the domestic labor market they keep prices low for you, stretching your own privileged paycheck. Meanwhile opportunity dries up for more and more families, especially the more vulnerable near the bottom of the skills ladder. As your Saint Hillary said about the necks you stand on in a rare moment of honesty "Ignore those deplorables, they're beneath us."

    Yes, colonialism looks great to the colonizers. Of course when they come for you you'll start crying "What happened?"

    It doesn't have to be this way and people know it. They want the colonialism to end.

  6. #126
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    35,347

    Re: Presidential Debates

    Even if it is replaced by totalitarianism?
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  7. #127
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    35,347

    Re: Presidential Debates

    It doesn't have to be like this, but as long as it doesn't change to the Khmer Rouge policy of killing all the intellectuals, I'd end up doing well under any other system, as well. Therefore, while I do benefit from the current situation, I also support any move to make it more equitable. My happiness doesn't depend on the abuse of others. Get rid of the abuse, and I'll still be happy. We should try to get rid of that abuse, but we shouldn't do it by killing off everybody who isn't abused.

    Lift up all the boats, it's fine with me. Lift the lower boats more, that's fine, as well. Lower all the boats to the lowest level....that's not fine.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  8. #128
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    7,637

    Re: Presidential Debates

    I guess I'm just one of the establishment.
    Happens to the best of us. You crossed that Rubicon when you agreed to become a mod.

    @Dil, I agree with alot (pretty much all, in fact) of what you said in post 125. Growing up in Nigeria and seeing what inequality can really look like in the extreme, I'm keenly aware of just how much privilege we enjoy and I wish more people from the West would spend some time examining the underbelly of the third world. It's WAY worse than most people think it is. I also agree with you that globalisation disproportionately impacts the less well off in the West.

    I disagree with laying the blame at the door of globalisation, though, for two main reasons:-

    1. International trade benefits the third world. I don't think the pay out is fairly distributed by any stretch of the imagination, but the third world does receive it's meagre slice. I think we should be doing much more to ensure fair trade and, given our colonial past, measures like writing off national debts feels like the least we should be doing. These aren't really arguments against Globalisation, though, they're arguments for more of it, just in a fair and more equitable manner.

    2. I don't think globalisation is a policy, it's a reality. As long as the level of inequity in the world is as stark as it is, it is going to be cheaper to outsource manufacturing, services etc to the third world. The only way to prevent that is to make it unattractive to deal with the rest of the world via tariffs... but all this does is enhance wages in the West with a corresponding increase in prices. For the prices to remain the same would require a depression of wages in the west (albeit at a higher rate of employment). In essence, it's a zero sum game where nobody benefits.

    The truth about tariffs is that they're simply a tax take for the government. I guess you could argue that the spending of that tax take could be targeted to those the less well off in the West but then you're really into a debate about big vs small government - the fact that the tax take came from tariffs is really incidental at that point.

    I'm curious, though, what would your measures to counter globalisation look like?
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Oct 19th, 2020 at 09:40 AM.
    You can depend upon the Americans to do the right thing. But only after they have exhausted every other possibility - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  9. #129
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    3,487

    Re: Presidential Debates

    That hasn't been true in many, many years and it continues to wane. Yes, Fox still has a bias, but it is nothing compared to pretty much every newspaper left, CNN, Comcast's outlets, CBS, ABC, PBS, NPR, or BBC's outlets.
    My god it takes nerve to say that. Faux News is the same as Trump state TV. It is all Trump all the time. They are the secondary white house staff.
    Please remember next time...elections matter!

  10. #130
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    35,347

    Re: Presidential Debates

    I'm not sure this planet has the resources to lift everybody to a moderate level.

    I was reading about the road development in Egypt, the other night. People can't protest, and the roads are ugly, but there are these new roads. That got me thinking about life in some other countries. As a person who has lived for a summer in a tent, a month in a shower, and other odd places, I know what it would be like for a time that is not too short, yet not all that long. It wasn't totally optional, in either of those cases. To be sure, I've spent months in a tent voluntarily, but there have been a few times when it was just the best alternative, so not truly optional. Still, it was much more optional than a whole lot of people, even in the US, get. I always had something to fall back on, even if I didn't want to. It's different when there's a net under you.

    But there's always a net under me because of where I was born, when I was born, who I was born to, and an element of chance. The majority of the world has less of a net, or no net at all. I'm well aware that there are circles of discrimination, and that I'm in the next to innermost circle, and therefore nearly the least discriminated against group that the world has ever seen (I have white, male, US citizen (developed world), highly educated, tall, very healthy, and reasonably well off, the one class even less discriminated against would be independently wealthy). We talk about addressing some of the inequality based on the first three, and I talked about it by addressing the fourth, but that won't do it all.

    Some debate whether or not there really is enough in the world to elevate everybody. There may be, but only if we don't all require some resource that is greatly limited. For example, if we all wanted something made of steel, there probably is enough for everybody. If we all wanted something using lithium, then there may be enough for everybody. If we all wanted something made of helium...well, there isn't enough for everybody. Fortunately, we're a bit up in the air over helium, but that's just one light example. There are plenty of other elements that are equally scarce. We may not be able to give everybody a new gizmo if that gizmo requires that element.

    Education would fix that problem, too, by the way. Education fixes everything.
    Last edited by Shaggy Hiker; Oct 19th, 2020 at 11:02 AM.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  11. #131
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    3,487

    Re: Presidential Debates

    Education would fix that problem, too, by the way. Education fixes everything.
    I firmly believe that. I think the internet will be what the printing press was in giving the "average" person a chance to reach "a moderate level".
    Please remember next time...elections matter!

  12. #132
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    35,347

    Re: Presidential Debates

    The internet is fertilizer, not education.

    (think about that just as long as you want, no meaning is off the table)
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  13. #133
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    3,487

    Re: Presidential Debates

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    The internet is fertilizer, not education.

    (think about that just as long as you want, no meaning is off the table)
    Couldn't you say the same thing about a library? If that was your meaning.
    Please remember next time...elections matter!

  14. #134
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    35,347

    Re: Presidential Debates

    That was only one possible meaning. Another would suggest that books don't make good fertilizer because of the poor carbon to nitrogen ratio.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  15. #135
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    3,487

    Re: Presidential Debates

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    That was only one possible meaning. Another would suggest that books don't make good fertilizer because of the poor carbon to nitrogen ratio.
    BS is pretty good fertilizer...
    Please remember next time...elections matter!

  16. #136
    PowerPoster techgnome's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    33,030

    Re: Presidential Debates

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    My god it takes nerve to say that. Faux News is the same as Trump state TV. It is all Trump all the time. They are the secondary white house staff.
    Meh... they're more the Republican Party Press Corp... it's just that Trump is "head" at the moment, so they're his shill... Once he's out, they'll drop him... may not turn against him, but they'll drop him.

    -tg
    * I don't respond to private (PM) requests for help. It's not conducive to the general learning of others.*
    * I also don't respond to friend requests. Save a few bits and don't bother. I'll just end up rejecting anyways.*
    * How to get EFFECTIVE help: The Hitchhiker's Guide to Getting Help at VBF - Removing eels from your hovercraft *
    * How to Use Parameters * Create Disconnected ADO Recordset Clones * Set your VB6 ActiveX Compatibility * Get rid of those pesky VB Line Numbers * I swear I saved my data, where'd it run off to??? *

  17. #137
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    3,487

    Re: Presidential Debates

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    Meh... they're more the Republican Party Press Corp... it's just that Trump is "head" at the moment, so they're his shill... Once he's out, they'll drop him... may not turn against him, but they'll drop him.

    -tg
    I wondered about that just the other day...I think he'll get his own show. Or maybe him and Tucker Carlson together.
    Please remember next time...elections matter!

  18. #138
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    35,347

    Re: Presidential Debates

    If Trump loses, we'll see the sorest loser that has ever been.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  19. #139
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    21,584

    Re: Presidential Debates

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    If Trump loses, we'll see the sorest loser that has ever been.
    Sure, but really... who cares?

    Aside from a small fringe most people are pretty disgusted by Trump as a human being. Some of that is reality, some is manufactured by a co-opted press. Enough is reality though to let him fend for himself. However I'm not convinced he's much worse than the reality of many other politicians who are better at covering who they really are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Education would fix that problem, too, by the way. Education fixes everything.
    Education has done pretty well... for itself. And Wall Street traders in equities made up of bundled student debt shielded from bankruptcy.

    Actual education could be a blessing but there is a long way to go. Too many "underwater basketweaving" majors and too much political indoctrination and recruitment goes on today. Too much pandering to the organized crime (so-called "sports") industry. Far too much pandering to land developers and landlords creating high-rent high-rise private student housing. Too low admissions criteria and a resulting lowering of the curve to keep the money flowing.

    I don't think even State post-secondary schools should be free, but they could be a whole lot cheaper. To get there costs need to be radically lowered so that scholarships and assistance programs can help keep more people out of unmanageable debt. Put more emphasis on vocational programs for those not interested in an academic track.

    Then you have the mess feeding into post-secondary education today. Primary and secondary schools place far too much emphasis on memorization to pass generic tests so even the dumbest and laziest can win that certificate of attendance. If more flunk out have them work for a year then if they are ready petition for re-admission.

    Ok, that last part wasn't well thought out. But there has to be some answer. I think a lot of school failure is due to lack of motivation and some sort of break (that isn't just a vacation) might be better than just coasting them through. Teachers are obviously important but to learn students have to take advantage of the opportunity. Kids aren't robots awaiting programming, or shouldn't be.

  20. #140
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    21,584

    Re: Presidential Debates

    LOL gotta love that line "Chicken soup for the suburban liberal."



    I know you miss these video clips.

  21. #141
    PowerPoster techgnome's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    33,030

    Re: Presidential Debates

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    I think a lot of school failure is due to lack of motivation and some sort of break (that isn't just a vacation) might be better than just coasting them through. Teachers are obviously important but to learn students have to take advantage of the opportunity. Kids aren't robots awaiting programming, or shouldn't be.
    Step 1: get rid of all the %&$%$ standardized testing.
    Seriously. Teachers aren't teaching material any more. They are teaching to the tests... the kids then spend the last 4-6 weeks of each school year taking these stupid tests. At least that's how it is around here. There's the district test. The State tests. Federal ones. This one, that one. Ol' McDonald had a farm.... oi... it's insane. And THEN they still have to take their normal finals and EOC (end of course) tests on top of all that. ***?

    -tg
    * I don't respond to private (PM) requests for help. It's not conducive to the general learning of others.*
    * I also don't respond to friend requests. Save a few bits and don't bother. I'll just end up rejecting anyways.*
    * How to get EFFECTIVE help: The Hitchhiker's Guide to Getting Help at VBF - Removing eels from your hovercraft *
    * How to Use Parameters * Create Disconnected ADO Recordset Clones * Set your VB6 ActiveX Compatibility * Get rid of those pesky VB Line Numbers * I swear I saved my data, where'd it run off to??? *

  22. #142
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    21,584

    Re: Presidential Debates

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    I'm curious, though, what would your measures to counter globalisation look like?
    It isn't a simple issue of trade but unbalanced trade.

    And it goes both ways. Look at Germany's export policies to African nations, for example dairy products dumped at prices so low local producers can no longer compete.

    The car I drive has an engine and drive train made of parts produced in the U.S. and Japan. The car was assembled in the U.K. using more U.K.- and Japanese-origin parts as well as parts made in Malaysia and who knows where else? This is unescapable in realistic terms. In this case I'm not as worried about profiteering from cheap labor as much as possibly leaving a plume of pollution behind where regulation is lax. The opportunity for work got shared around.

    But, and this is my big butt, er, but, I think both industrial and agricultural production should take place as near the point of consumption as practical. Of course nobody sane demands that all of the coconut consumed in Minnesota be produced locally, just as they shouldn't be discouraged from exporting their iron ore.

    It isn't a question of isolationism, but opposition to interventionism. And I think the signs are clear that todays commercial interventionism is behind an awful lot of military interventionism.


    I don't see any path toward balanced fair trade besides import tariffs though. The multinational corporations sponsor laughable treaties and deals like NAFTA, the TPP, CETA, and on and on.

    Canadians are no saints. Look at the numbers of indigenous peoples they have relocated in the last 40 years for the sake of mega-farming, mining, petroleum extraction, hydroelectric dams, and on and on.

  23. #143
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    21,584

    Re: Presidential Debates

    A true neoliberal academic:


  24. #144
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    7,637

    Re: Presidential Debates

    this is my big butt
    Don't be so hard on yourself... you look lovely in that outfit.

    I agree with almost all of that, I just don't see tariffs as the answer if the concern is the welfare of the third world. But, like you, I'm not sure I've really got a better one. Writing off third world debt would be a good start (we've promised to do this several times but have never followed through). Other than that fair trade would be the big fix, but that's a goal rather than a measure and I'm not sure what the measure is that would achieve the goal.
    You can depend upon the Americans to do the right thing. But only after they have exhausted every other possibility - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  25. #145
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    35,347

    Re: Presidential Debates

    I don't think that writing off the debt is a great solution for a country run by a kleptocracy. I do think it would help for those making positive strides towards democracy. In fact, I think it would help more than just that country. There are countries like Mali, which are mired in problems, but green shoots of progress spring up here and there. If those saw a reward of debt relief, it might reinforce them. If countries that saw peaceful democratic transitions of power saw a debt reduction, it might encourage their neighbors. For instance, if the US has a peaceful transfer of power and sees a debt reduction as a result, it might encourage other countries to do the same.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  26. #146
    Junior Member wossy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Posts
    26

    Re: Presidential Debates

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    Couldn't you say the same thing about a library?
    In an ideal world, the internet is the perfect library.

    I guess something went a bit wrong.
    On the bright side, I've still got pessimism and despair to fall back on.

  27. #147
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    21,584

    Re: Presidential Debates

    There sure is some funny stuff out there.



    As "No Jungle" Joe says: "C'mon, man!"

  28. #148
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    3,487

    Re: Presidential Debates

    We needed that mute button on Trump three and a half years ago...
    Please remember next time...elections matter!

  29. #149

    Thread Starter
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    4,561

    Re: Presidential Debates

    I have no idea why Biden is doing this debate. Trump canceled the last one, wouldn't be much fallout if Biden would have said that he is done with the debates. I see no benefit in standing up there and giving Trump a platform on national TV to spread his lies and insults for an hour or two. Nothing new will be learned and both sides will claim victory.

  30. #150
    Super Moderator dday9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    South Louisiana
    Posts
    9,739

    Re: Presidential Debates

    I don't see any political gain to be made by Biden attending the debate. He needed to do one, but Trump gave him the perfect excuse not to do anymore by not doing a remote debate.

    Personally, I would've like to have seen the commission on presidential debates penalize Trump by saying "Fine, you don't want to do a remote debate? The person polling in third place would love to be on the debate stage so we'll include her." But that was just wishful thinking on my end.

  31. #151
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    21,584

    Re: Presidential Debates

    More debate news, though most of it backs up into the primaries:


Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst 1234

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  



Click Here to Expand Forum to Full Width