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Thread: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

  1. #121
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground


  2. #122

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    ...And we're back. I mean, he's not actually dead so that's something.

    Seriously, the policing culture in the US is broken beyond belief.
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    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    ...And we're back. I mean, he's not actually dead so that's something.

    Seriously, the policing culture in the US is broken beyond belief.
    And you can bet that next to none, if any at all, of the people who have been spouting "all lives matter" will do or even say a damn thing about this. If those people were actually trying to do something about police brutality for the benefit of everyone then you might be able to take them seriously but it's patently obvious that "all lives matter" is just code for "black lives aren't treated any differently to any others so there's no problem to address so we can all do nothing".

  4. #124
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    It's another messed up situation... the fact he is alive is obviously good (the long term damage to him isn't), but there is surprisingly little "official" information, and from the video I can't see any reason for the actual shooting (the only thing I can think of is that there was a gun in the car door, and the officer reacted to that).

    The protests seem to have gone a bit too far again, as apparently two people have died in them.

    I wish there was a "civil" way to get things resolved, but there are just so many bad events in recent months, and no significant signs of change. It is understandable that emotions are running high for those who want the police to be held accountable, but as things stand the results of the protests seem to be worse for the people than the cause of the protests.

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    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by si_the_geek View Post
    The protests seem to have gone a bit too far again, as apparently two people have died in them.
    From what I have read - this may be inaccurate or incomplete - the protesters have "clashed with groups of armed men", so it appears to self-styled militia who have taken the law into their own hands and have shot protesters in the process. I agree that the protests have gone too far but anyone who knows much of anything about human nature should know that when people feel angry and powerless, they tend to lash out. Anyone who thinks that protesters should just get over it (I'm not necessarily saying that that includes you, si) are denying human nature and if they want this kind of behaviour to stop then they need to stand up and do something about the root cause.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    I agree with the protestors (the police should be accountable, and avoid bad methods etc), I just think that there are too many people taking the protests too far - and in the process making things worse rather than better (hence the family of the original victim in this case asking for protests to be peaceful). Obviously I understand it is hard to keep emotions under control when you are on the receiving end and feel so powerless.

    I'm hoping that the effects of all these protests mean that Trump loses the election (as I was always hoping), and Biden quickly implements police reform of some kind. Biden at least seems to have that kind of intention, and I don't think Trump ever will.

  7. #127

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    this may be inaccurate or incomplete
    Yeah, I'm not clear on the details so far. Here's the BBC news' latest. There's not enough details to say with any surety but it sounds like a self styled militia was trying to protect businesses: "Other video shows armed civilians, many dressed in military fatigues, congregating outside businesses they said they were protecting." Something went South and it escalated: "Footage shared online showed a man with a rifle being chased by a crowd before he fell to the ground and appeared to fire multiple rounds at them."

    So it sounds like it was protesters that were shot rather than doing the shooting but the shooting probably occurred in self defence. Without knowing what led to that man being chased by a crowd it's hard to make moral judgements but I'll say two things:-
    1. If I was being chased by a mob and I had a gun I'd likely feel compelled to use it
    2. I'm pretty sure I could avoid putting myself in that position. I suspect he could have avoided it too. Which means he chose to be there.

    if they want this kind of behaviour to stop then they need to stand up and do something about the root cause.
    ^Yep, that. The riots are not the cause, they're the effect.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Aug 26th, 2020 at 11:56 AM.
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    This may be a stretch and I am definitely anti-Trump but pundits have been saying for years this was bound to happen. Trump's dog whistles, racism and his support for the far right have been on display since the beginning. I can't realistically assign the blame to Trump. He certainly contributed to the mess we are in with his devisive approach to governing.
    Last edited by TysonLPrice; Aug 27th, 2020 at 03:46 AM.
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    I'm hoping that the effects of all these protests mean that Trump loses the election (as I was always hoping), and Biden quickly implements police reform of some kind. Biden at least seems to have that kind of intention, and I don't think Trump ever will.
    I believe it will have the opposite effect. In fact I'd say he couldn't be happier that these riots are happening. He has been using it as a scare tactic, saying if Biden is elected the rioters will throw the country into complete chaos, there would be no police protection, no one or no business will be safe. And I'd have to say that these cities that have allowed the vandalism to continue are helping Trump get reelected, because it's mostly happening in in states ran by Democrats. So Trump says if the Democrats win this type of violence will be rampant.


    So it sounds like it was protesters that were shot rather than doing the shooting but the shooting probably occurred in self defence.
    Well they have arrested the guy. I watched one video, it didn't show how it started but did show the man running down the street chasing people with a rifle. That doesn't seem like self defense. We'll see, hopefully more information will be provided. Dumb asses with guns, we got boat loads of them.

    https://currently.att.yahoo.com/att/...155557844.html

    I wish there was a "civil" way to get things resolved, but there are just so many bad events in recent months, and no significant signs of change. It is understandable that emotions are running high for those who want the police to be held accountable, but as things stand the results of the protests seem to be worse for the people than the cause of the protests.
    Yeah the rioting and looting gives the people that didn't want to listen in the first place an easy excuse to dismiss the protesters. It also weakening the attitudes of the people that are open minded. I know it affects me, I'm very pro civil right for all and pro police accountability. But then I'm also pro personal accountability, so when people are smashing store windows or setting fires, I think they need to be held accountable.

    Non violent civil disobedience. That's the only way people will listen to the actual problem. Well that's my two cents

  10. #130

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    it didn't show how it started but did show the man running down the street chasing people with a rifle
    That's interesting. It's the exact opposite of what the BBC were reporting as they were saying the protesters were chasing him, not the other way round. If it happened the way you describe then, no, it definitely isn't self defence.

    I took a look at the video in your linked article and it was still difficult to say. It starts with him on the ground (presumably having tripped), three or four protesters run at him and attack him, he pulls a sidearm and starts shooting. My take away from that and whether you could call it self defence very much depends on whether he was chasing the protesters (which your linked article says) or whether the protesters were chasing him (which the BBC says). Is there any footage that shows what happened just before that video?

    Either way, though, it's pretty clear that this guy saw himself as a vigilante. For the record, I'm not necessarily anti-gun. Other countries that have liberal gun laws get by just fine. But the US has an incredibly toxic culture around it's guns and how a lot of you guys see yourselves that really needs addressing. It'd be childish if it wasn't so damn tragic.
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    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    it's pretty clear that this guy saw himself as a vigilante.
    Indeed. From what I understand from American "stand your ground" laws, they give you the right to use deadly force if someone invades your home but not beyond that. He went there with a gun and put himself in front of an angry mob. While I certainly can't be sure about this particular individual, I would not be at all surprised to find out that he was hoping for an excuse to cry self-defence. From what I have heard from various people talking about "stand your ground" laws, you can tell that they genuine want someone to break into their home so that they can murder them legally.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    I took a look at the video in your linked article and it was still difficult to say. It starts with him on the ground (presumably having tripped), three or four protesters run at him
    That clip has changed. Before you could see him running down the street with his rifle up and then he fell.

    This is a different clip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqZ-aS7Qzk4

    I think this is the original one I saw https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/...ed/3441271001/

    Just Google kenosha protester being shot video

    I can tell you two things, I wouldn't bring a gun into that environment and I wouldn't chase someone who was pointing a gun. As I said I don't know how it started.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    Indeed. From what I understand from American "stand your ground" laws, they give you the right to use deadly force if someone invades your home but not beyond that. He went there with a gun and put himself in front of an angry mob. While I certainly can't be sure about this particular individual, I would not be at all surprised to find out that he was hoping for an excuse to cry self-defence. From what I have heard from various people talking about "stand your ground" laws, you can tell that they genuine want someone to break into their home so that they can murder them legally.
    "Stand your ground" laws are not national. Some states don't have them at all and some states seem to issue a license to kill. In Georgia, at the time I lived there, you could use deadly force to defend your home but not if you could have run out the back door. In Florida if you feel your life is in danger you can stand right there in the street and use deadly force, that is don't run. In Texas you can use deadly force if you suspect someday the person might try and harm you
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  14. #134
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Some states don't have a "stand your ground" law, but do have a "castle defense" law... which is similar but different in that the castle defense can only be used within your home or property, while stand your ground can generally be used anywhere. Here in SC we have the castle defense but not the stand your ground... also, castle does not apply if the perpetrator is in the act of leaving - ie, once you confront them, if they back down and start to leave, you can't continue to confront them and then shoot them if they then try to return to retaliate (because you then provoked them). But if you've given them warning and they continue to be a threat and not vacate, you have every right to defend your home & property as you see fit. It's designed to defuse and deescalate if possible, but it isn't it gives property owners the right of protection.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    That clip has changed
    It looks like the clip that's in your first link in post 132 precedes the one now in post 129 and it does tell a story. It looks like the protesters were chasing him with what look like bats or lengths of 2 by 4 (you can hear someone say "beat him up" at 0:09). He slipped and they caught up to him. They began to attack him and he started shooting. So I guess you can argue that in the moment it was self defence.

    Thing is, I still find myself wondering why the crowd was chasing him in the first place. On the whole people with bats tend not to chase after people armed with guns just for the hell of it. I wonder what preceded all this.


    Edit> and, actually, as I watch the vid from post 129 again I'm amending that a bit. The person who I at first thought attacked him doesn't appear to have been one of the people that was chasing him. Rather, it's a bystander who actually tries to kick the assault rifle out of his hands (which must have taken balls of brass).

    And even after the crowd have fled, he keeps shooting.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Aug 27th, 2020 at 09:20 AM.
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Here is the shooter...

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/27/us/ke...ect/index.html

    It might not surprise anyone but he was in the front row of a Trump rally and proud of it.
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    Last edited by TysonLPrice; Aug 27th, 2020 at 09:24 AM.
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    The protests seem to have gone a bit too far again, as apparently two people have died in them.

    I wish there was a "civil" way to get things resolved, but there are just so many bad events in recent months, and no significant signs of change. It is understandable that emotions are running high for those who want the police to be held accountable, but as things stand the results of the protests seem to be worse for the people than the cause of the protests.
    Yeah the rioting and looting gives the people that didn't want to listen in the first place an easy excuse to dismiss the protesters. It also weakening the attitudes of the people that are open minded. I know it affects me, I'm very pro civil right for all and pro police accountability. But then I'm also pro personal accountability, so when people are smashing store windows or setting fires, I think they need to be held accountable.

    Non violent civil disobedience. That's the only way people will listen to the actual problem. Well that's my two cents
    Many protesters have been non violent in fact the non-violent protesters have massively out weighed the violent ones, but its the looting and damaging of property that stands out.

    I agree that it disrupts the message, but i would counter that people have been protesting against police oppression of black people in the US for many years, the Rodney King incident happened in 1991, the Eric Garner killing happened in 2014, both of these incidents and others were followed by significant protests, and nothing has changed.

    This time the George Floyd killing was just the straw that broke the camels back, people want thing to actually change and previous protests have achieved nothing and nothing has changed for years and years, so things escalate and they will likely continue to escalate now until the protesters see actual change.

    I dont condone the rioting and looting but i understand it, and i dont think that those protesting feel that the results of the protests is worse than the cause, whats worse then dying and constantly being afraid of death.
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    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    There are a lot of people complaining about the violent protesters and implying or outright stating that they should be protesting peacefully. My question to those people is this: what exactly do you think they should be protesting peacefully against? What do you think the problem is? Do you think there's a problem at all? If there is a problem that preceded this violence then why is the fact that this violence has occurred a reason not to address it? If that problem had been addressed before now then this violence wouldn't have occurred in the first place. I believe that the Kenosha sheriff or similar has stated that the protesters who were shot would not have been had they not been out past curfew and I bet there's plenty of people nodding their heads and agreeing with that. To those people I say this: if you had stood up and done something about the problem of police brutality in general and particularly against black people then this violence never would have happened. Don't be hypocrites. If you don't think there's a problem in the first place - there are plenty of such people - then I can only say screw you because you deserve what you get. These are the people who say "all lives matter" as though that actually means something if you ignore the fact that some lives are treated as though they matter less than others.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Sounds like the kid shot somebody first, then fled, was chased, tripped, and shot again once he had fallen.

    The problem I have with the vigilante militias is that a whole bunch of them want an excuse to use those guns. Why carry a toy when you can't play with it? When you add youth and desire into the mix, a shooting was eventually going to happen. There are plenty of non violent people who can defuse situations, like that group of mothers in Portland, but the vigilantes don't really want to defuse.
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    There are a lot of people complaining about the violent protesters and implying or outright stating that they should be protesting peacefully.
    True, I'm one of them. For reasons I've stated before like in #129. There are other reason, like I've never seen violence help promote change in this country. The last significant and lasting changes came in the 1960's and was lead by MLK. It was none violent.

    What do you think the problem is? Do you think there's a problem at all? If there is a problem that preceded this violence then why is the fact that this violence has occurred a reason not to address it?
    Yes there is a problem, lots of problems.
    Racism, prejudice
    Bad police officers that hide behind a wall of silence from other officers. Not held accountable.
    Poorly trained police.
    Our country and I assume most others have bias and prejudices going back for generations. Hell there are still countries with people trying to commit genocide.

    Violence is not a reason to not address the problem, I've never said or thought anything close to that. As I've said before is does give people who are racist or who don't think there is a problem a reason to ignore the protest.

    I agree that it disrupts the message, but i would counter that people have been protesting against police oppression of black people in the US for many years, the Rodney King incident happened in 1991, the Eric Garner killing happened in 2014, both of these incidents and others were followed by significant protests, and nothing has changed.
    This just goes to my point, the riots drowned out the protests and nothing changed.

    I think there is a real chance for change with this current movement, if they can keep people focused on the problem and message.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    There are other reason, like I've never seen violence help promote change in this country. The last significant and lasting changes came in the 1960's and was lead by MLK. It was none violent.
    I don't know how old you are but the 1960's racial riots were extremely violent. Granted there were non-violent movements too. Just like today. I personally believe the non-violent movement got attention/results but the riots did too. The country was "on fire" at the time.

    I am NOT advocating violence..this is just clarification.

    https://www.encyclopedia.com/history...ce-riots-1960s
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    I'm on the fence on this one. I don't feel that most riots are immediately useful, but I also don't feel that most peaceful protests are all that useful, either. If everybody gets up and gives nice speeches, what changes? Most such protests gather a very small fraction of the population and are ignored by any politician who doesn't feel they will benefit from participating. They might change a few minds one way or the other, but do they really have much of an impact?

    If you can get millions into the streets, then you might well be heard. Otherwise, direct action seems to always be more effective. Direct action doesn't mean violence. Directly contacting political leaders is one route, political campaigning is a slower, but ultimately pretty effective route. More confrontational would be sit-ins, strikes, and the like. More controversial still would be violence. ALL of those will get attention. All will result in change. Some will result in the change you want, others in changes you don't want.

    Saying, "we're angry enough to take action" while taking action that gets ignored, seems kind of futile. Once people decide to take action that won't be ignored, everybody will make a choice as to what that is. I likely won't agree with some of those choices, but I'd like to know more about what underlies the choice when it comes to property damage. If it's violence against people, that's just bad, but property damage....I'd like to understand it better.
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Well there are some quite famous strikes happening apparently, for most major sports in the US (basketball, baseball, tennis, ...):
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/basketball/53926764

    It has resulted in an invitation to the White House for one of the major stars to discuss solutions to racial injustice, so it is possible that Trump might now pay some attention to the cause rather than just trying to stomp on the effects.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    I don't know how old you are but the 1960's racial riots were extremely violent. Granted there were non-violent movements too. Just like today. I personally believe the non-violent movement got attention/results but the riots did too. The country was "on fire" at the time
    I was born in 1953, so the early 1960's riots aren't very clear. Also I live out in the country so not alot of news or people talking. Plus my family talked about blacks as "those people", my dad was much more insulting. My grandmother hated Kennedy because she thought "he started all this civil right crap". Sweet lady but a huge racist. But I remember in @66 I lived in town and when the marches started taking place and even though the marchers were beaten they didn't respond with violence, it really seem to catch peoples attention. Once white people got over their fears it made talking much easier. Your right though between the civil rights movement, Vietnam and the hippie counter culture, we were on fire.

    Well there are some quite famous strikes happening apparently, for most major sports in the US (basketball, baseball, tennis, ...):
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/basketball/53926764
    It hasn't resulted in an invitation yet, hope they do. Got to be careful around here, the WH says a lot of things but don't do it. lol

    Sadly an NBA walkout would probably have more effect than 1,000 different protests. But I'm glad they're doing it. If you remember it was the NBA and others canceling games/races that finally got the politicians doing something about the virus.
    Last edited by wes4dbt; Aug 27th, 2020 at 05:40 PM.

  25. #145
    Super Moderator si_the_geek's Avatar
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Does that mean the NBA would be a better president than Trump?

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    It hasn't resulted in an invitation yet, hope they do.
    Ah yes, I didn't read that part carefully enough "intend to" invite

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Does that mean the NBA would be a better president than Trump?
    lol, I'd say hell yes but it depends who you ask. You wouldn't know it from this forum but there is a very good chance he will be reelected. So there has to be a lot of people that think he's a good president. They actually believe the things he says and all of the bad things are fake news. A nurse my daughter works with is certain the virus will go away after the election, it's just being keep around to keep Trump from being elected. A whole world wide pandemic just to get rid of Trump. Scary isn't it.

    I am very proud of the NBA and other sports for their social consciousness with the virus and now with the BLM movement. Well it's more than just BLM, I'll let people put what other names they want to the issues.

    My guess is there will be a WH invite, Trump likes to make a public gesture, like when he pardons a black person and then touts how he has done more for the black community than any other president.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    You wouldn't know it from this forum but there is a very good chance he will be reelected. So there has to be a lot of people that think he's a good president. They actually believe the things he says and all of the bad things are fake news.
    While there are a lot of people who truly support him, there are also a lot in the camp that are voting him "just to piss off the dems" and a lot in the camp that are fed up with the dems period and will vote for anyone but (whether they abstain or vote for him).

    Regardless, he has seen a huge jump in the last week or so. It is looking like the "safe" choice for the dems wasn't what people were looking for.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by si_the_geek View Post
    Does that mean the NBA would be a better president than Trump?
    Well, it wouldn't be a slam dunk, but policies would dribble out over time, and they'd do less traveling, or at least it wouldn't be called that.
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by kfcSmitty View Post
    Regardless, he has seen a huge jump in the last week or so. It is looking like the "safe" choice for the dems wasn't what people were looking for.
    Biden is a bad candidate. Trump was going down in the polls while Biden was absent. Now that he's starting to speak up, he's making Trump look less bad. This election is truly case of the least worse candidate.

  30. #150

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    I believe that the Kenosha sheriff or similar has stated that the protesters who were shot would not have been had they not been out past curfew
    Except that George Floyd and Jacob Blake weren't out past curfew. Given that, why would anyone respect that curfew? What incentive have they been given not to behave in the way we're seeing?

    All protest is violent, it's just a matter of degree. The most peaceful march through a city centre closes that city centre for a day and costs the business owners. You'll hear all the same "property damage is violence" arguments in response to that peaceful march that you would to a riot.

    Once you start down the route of saying protests must be peaceful what you are actually saying is "don't protest". Because dialling back the disruption doesn't result in the establishment dialling back the outrage it will express that a message they don't want to be heard is being heard. Colin Kaepernick's protest was as peaceful as I can possibly imagine but the outrage was the same.

    I condemn violence against people. Violence against property, incomes and civic purses is an inevitable consequence of protest and it's better to address the cause than the symptom if you want to prevent it.

    Biden is a bad candidate. Trump was going down in the polls while Biden was absent. Now that he's starting to speak up, he's making Trump look less bad. This election is truly case of the least worse candidate.
    I suspect the lift Trump is getting is more to do with the Republican conference rather than a bad presentation of Biden. The media over here roundly portrayed the Dem conference as a success. Though I do agree that Biden seems pretty bland to me. I know almost nothing about him... and don't really find myself wanting to find out.

    Does that mean the NBA would be a better president than Trump?
    They've got bigger balls. Mind you, both are practically dribbling.
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Well, it wouldn't be a slam dunk, but policies would dribble out over time, and they'd do less traveling, or at least it wouldn't be called that.
    You have fouled this thread for the third time. You are out....
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  32. #152
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    You're mixing your sports. Three fouls isn't even enough to get you benched. I've got a few more to give....so just wait.

    Traditionally, every candidate gets a bump in the polls during and following their convention. It's what happens in a couple weeks that matters more.

    Biden is not a great speaker, but he isn't polarizing. The real question is whether or not the group that comes out to vote because the loathe Trump will be greater than the group that comes out to vote because they love Trump. Both sides know that. Trump doesn't have enough support to win unless the group that loathes him stays home. That's not likely to shift, so both sides will be trying to get out their side of the love/loathe equation. That likely means nothing all that much from Biden, and a whole lot from Trump.
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  33. #153
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    You're mixing your sports. Three fouls isn't even enough to get you benched. I've got a few more to give....so just wait.

    Traditionally, every candidate gets a bump in the polls during and following their convention. It's what happens in a couple weeks that matters more.

    Biden is not a great speaker, but he isn't polarizing. The real question is whether or not the group that comes out to vote because the loathe Trump will be greater than the group that comes out to vote because they love Trump. Both sides know that. Trump doesn't have enough support to win unless the group that loathes him stays home. That's not likely to shift, so both sides will be trying to get out their side of the love/loathe equation. That likely means nothing all that much from Biden, and a whole lot from Trump.
    I think no matter what, just because Trump is involved, it is going to be messy. It will Bush vs Gore on steroids only chads will be mail in ballots. The greatest irony for me is Trump screws around enough the constitution kicks in and the congress elects the president. Who do you think Pelosi will push

    The downside is the Senate picks the vice president. So it would end up a Biden Pence administration.

    "A candidate must receive an absolute majority of electoral votes (currently 270) to win the presidency or the vice presidency. If no candidate receives a majority in the election for president or vice president, that election is determined via a contingency procedure established by the 12th Amendment. In such a situation, the House chooses one of the top three presidential electoral vote-winners as the president, while the Senate chooses one of the top two vice presidential electoral vote-winners as vice president."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contin...th%20Amendment.
    Please remember next time...elections matter!

  34. #154
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post

    The downside is the Senate picks the vice president. So it would end up a Biden Pence administration.
    Oh THAT would be entertaining. Two cardboard cutouts, desperately smiling, waiting for the other to actually say something.
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Once you start down the route of saying protests must be peaceful what you are actually saying is "don't protest"
    Where did you come up with this concept? Sounds like something Trump would say, "If you don't vote for me then you hate America". You certainly have the right to your opinion but it's far from what I mean when I say non violence can be more effective.

    Because dialling back the disruption doesn't result in the establishment dialling back the outrage it will express that a message they don't want to be heard is being heard.
    Your not going to reach those people but it does make it easier for the people who are willing to learn/listen. I think most Americans want change, but that's just my opinion.

    All protest is violent, it's just a matter of degree. The most peaceful march through a city centre closes that city centre for a day and costs the business owners. You'll hear all the same "property damage is violence" arguments in response to that peaceful march that you would to a riot.
    So you would be just as outraged over losing business for a few hours as would be if your store trashed, looted or burned to the ground. Then there is the issue of one being a legal act and one being a criminal act.

    Your right though it is a matter of degree.

    I agree with SH that just protesting isn't enough to cause change. You got to be engaging with the people that have that, and there desire to make changes will depend on the people that elect them.

    Listen I'm no sociologist, far from it. Maybe violence is necessary but nothing I've seen has proven that to me.

  36. #156
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Violence gets attention. I have no doubt about that. I'm not sure that it gets the right results, though. I think there are times when it has and times when it has not.
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Violence gets attention. I have no doubt about that. I'm not sure that it gets the right results, though. I think there are times when it has and times when it has not.
    It sure has given us something to talk about. But I have to admit, I getting really mad. The politician, police, protester, rioters or various militia have not called me and asked for my advise. NONE OF THEM!!! I have all this problem solving, next level, wisdom to share and not one phone call or text.

  38. #158
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    It sure has given us something to talk about. But I have to admit, I getting really mad. The politician, police, protester, rioters or various militia have not called me and asked for my advise. NONE OF THEM!!! I have all this problem solving, next level, wisdom to share and not one phone call or text.
    Have you made sure the phone isn't off the hook?

  39. #159
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by kfcSmitty View Post
    Have you made sure the phone isn't off the hook?
    I think it's working, I tried calling my phone number several times but keep getting a busy signal. I'll try again later.

  40. #160
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Tell yourself to get off the phone...or just send a text.
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