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Thread: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

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    Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    I really don't agree with China's recent actions in Hong Kong. Any government that bans and supresses protest reveals itself as weak and lacking in credibility. None of us stand above criticism.

    ...But...

    Given current events in Portland, the US has abrogated any moral high ground that it could have used to criticise. At this point there are literally groups of unidentifiable men roaming the streets in unmarked vehicles snatching people off the streets. These people are not being charged with any offense, no protocols are being followed (no Miranda rights, no identification of the offence being committed, no attempt by the agent to identify themselves). They are then being released without charge because, of course, there are no charges to answer. This is not to do with law enforcement, it is pure intimidation by a government of it's own citizens.

    And, just to be clear, it's not a case of putting down violent protest or criminality, it's any random person off the street. Seriously, watch the footage of Christopher David (who's a frickin' End of Level Boss btw). He approaches them entirely peacefully, isn't engaged in anything that could be considered criminal in any way and is beaten with clubs and pepper sprayed.

    This is being done in opposition to the elected State government. And Trump is openly stating that he is going to continue this practice across the rest of the nation.


    I do not like the way the Chinese Government has behaved in recent years. I think there is much to criticize, up to and including the Ethnic Cleansing of the Uigher people. But how can the West challenge and criticise the Chinese Government when this is their own practice?
    You can depend upon the Americans to do the right thing. But only after they have exhausted every other possibility - Winston Churchill

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    I can tell you the truth (or the information I know), but only if you need to collect some information yourself. Otherwise, the dialogue between us will not proceed.

    You need to collect the following basic information:
    (1) What is Article 23 of the Hong Kong Basic Law?
    (2) Hong Kong's nationality law.
    (3) The composition of Hong Kong legislature and Hong Kong judges.
    (4) Who is the director of Hong Kong TV Station
    (5) How much tax does Hong Kong pay to the Chinese government each year, and how much tax Shanghai pays to the Chinese government each year
    (6) The current situation of Hong Kong education
    (7) How are the freedoms and human rights of Hong Kong people suppressed?
    (8) The similarities and differences between the Hong Kong protests and the current US protests
    (9) How is the Hong Kong University Student Union different from other universities in the world?

    The following points are related to the Hong Kong issue:

    (10) What national security laws are enacted by the United States
    (11) In what respects does the United States adopt double standards?
    (12) Is the complete monopoly of the Western media’s "right to speak" really a good thing
    (13) How much information the Western people obtain from the media is true and how much is false.
    (14) How much information about China obtained by the Western people from the media is true and how much is false.
    (15) How many people in the West can judge the authenticity of media information.
    (16) Why did American politics become what it is now?
    (17) Why has the United States not resolved the issue of racial discrimination after 400 years?
    (18) Is the human rights situation in the United States really good? Compared with China, in what ways is the human rights situation in the United States better?
    (19) Is the United States really the country of the American people?

    (20) Do you understand China's ethnic minority policies?
    (21) How much of the information you know about China do you think is true? What is the proportion of real information?
    (22) Why did I say such strange words "I have much more knowledge than Shaggy" ?

    If you don't have the time or interest to understand the above questions, so that we can't talk to each other, that' no matter. When you have time, you could pay attention to some of the above questions (especially the first, eighth and 22nd).

    Edit:
    In addition, my verbal attacks on some people here are entirely due to the Hong Kong issue (not because of COVID-19). The Hong Kong issue has shown me the hypocrisy and double standards of Western media and Western politicians.
    Last edited by dreammanor; Jul 24th, 2020 at 04:25 AM.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    the dialogue between us will not proceed
    Fine by me. I won't be doing your research for you.
    You can depend upon the Americans to do the right thing. But only after they have exhausted every other possibility - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    Fine by me. I won't be doing your research for you.
    You are not searching for information for me, I know all the information above. You are collecting information for yourself.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    OK, I'll rephrase. I won't be making you're argument for you.
    You can depend upon the Americans to do the right thing. But only after they have exhausted every other possibility - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    OK, I'll rephrase. I won't be making you're argument for you.
    No, I have never been interested and have no time to debate, I just provide some information or questions for you to think when I occasionally have time. I think this is a way for me to give back (thank) to this forum.

    If one day, you find that 99% of the information you know about china is false, then don't be surprised, because there are billions of people are in a similar situation to you. This happens not only outside China, but also to Chinese people. For example, many highly educated people in China have studied and used traditional Chinese medicine for decades, and finally found that 99% of them are pseudoscience.
    Last edited by dreammanor; Jul 24th, 2020 at 05:36 AM.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Lol this troll just keeps coming back... If you're representing China, all you're doing is showing us how ignorant the average Chinese is and that they're not open to discourse: they believe whatever they're fed and anyone with a differing opinion will be ignored.

    You'll need to actually talk to people here if you want to change anyones opinion of China, as all you're doing right now is making China look bad.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    When you don't show your hand, you have the advantage of saying that you anticipated any eventuality. Nobody else believes that position, though, at least once they pass the age of about 12, because by that point they have all seen that people who say that they have all the answers are generally less well informed than the average person. The claim of having all the answers is just a pose to cover up uncertainty and doubt. By saying you know everything, but sharing none of it, your opinions are sheltered from information that would contradict and undermine the opinion. It allows a person to maintain a veneer of confidence where none exists beneath the surface.
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by kfcSmitty View Post
    Lol this troll just keeps coming back... If you're representing China, all you're doing is showing us how ignorant the average Chinese is and that they're not open to discourse: they believe whatever they're fed and anyone with a differing opinion will be ignored.

    You'll need to actually talk to people here if you want to change anyones opinion of China, as all you're doing right now is making China look bad.
    You seem to be showing your ignorance all the time, and I don't see any good qualities in you. From you, I can understand why the United States has such a bad government and why the most powerful (and greatest) country in the world is in a sharp decline.

    If you want to talk to others, then you must at least collect some knowledge related to the topic being discussed (for example, some of the knowledge points I listed in #post2). Otherwise, how do you come to talk to others.

    In addition, are you willing to discuss with dozens of Chinese people in Chinese at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by kfcSmitty View Post
    as all you're doing right now is making China look bad.
    You and the US government are making America look worse and worse.
    Last edited by dreammanor; Jul 24th, 2020 at 10:32 AM.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    When you don't show your hand, you have the advantage of saying that you anticipated any eventuality. Nobody else believes that position, though, at least once they pass the age of about 12, because by that point they have all seen that people who say that they have all the answers are generally less well informed than the average person. The claim of having all the answers is just a pose to cover up uncertainty and doubt. By saying you know everything, but sharing none of it, your opinions are sheltered from information that would contradict and undermine the opinion. It allows a person to maintain a veneer of confidence where none exists beneath the surface.
    Can't you understand what I said in #Post2? Although those questions are for FunkyDexter, I also welcome you to participate in the discussion. The premise is that you can collect and learn some information related to the topic of discussion.

    In fact, I have already said that I do not participate in any debate. I just provide some information on some issues for you think and reference. You should understand that in this world, there will not be anyone like me who keeps providing information (about china) that you don't know.
    Last edited by dreammanor; Jul 24th, 2020 at 10:34 AM.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    I just provide some information on some issues for your consideration (reference)
    No you don't, you make unsupported assertions.

    Not really the point of the thread though. The thread was a criticism of the current state of the US. The criticism of China is a given.
    You can depend upon the Americans to do the right thing. But only after they have exhausted every other possibility - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    No you don't, you make unsupported assertions.

    Not really the point of the thread though. The thread was a criticism of the current state of the US. The criticism of China is a given.
    (1) What is Article 23 of the Hong Kong Basic Law?

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    I won't be doing your research for you. If you want to make an argument, make it.
    You can depend upon the Americans to do the right thing. But only after they have exhausted every other possibility - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    I won't be doing your research for you. If you want to make an argument, make it.
    No, I don't.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    In fact, all my bad emotions are due to the Hong Kong problem last year. The hypocrisy and double standards of Western media and Western politicians have made me extremely disgusted with Western media and Western politicians. (Before this, I had never had this kind of emotion)

    I have a lot to say about the falseness of information and double standards, maybe I can write a book. But now is the time for intense conflict between the United States and China, so I want to wait until the conflict is over before I speak my thoughts.

    In addition, please ignore my comments, others please continue to discuss #post1. (If necessary, please delete all my comments in this thread.)
    Last edited by dreammanor; Jul 24th, 2020 at 11:00 AM.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    I have told a few jokes about China in other threads:
    (1) China is the most open country in the world
    (2) China is the country with the richest medical resources in the world (this is due to the deception and over-treatment of traditional Chinese medicine)

    Let me tell another joke. The human rights situation in China is better than that in the United States. Specifically, the human rights situation in China is comparable to that of the United Kingdom and Canada, but better than that of the United States and Australia, but weaker than that of France, Germany, and Japan. More importantly, the human rights situation in China has been continuously improving.

    Next time, I'll tell some other jokes about China.
    Last edited by dreammanor; Jul 24th, 2020 at 11:16 AM.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by dreammanor View Post
    You seem to be showing your ignorance all the time, and I don't see any good qualities in you. From you, I can understand why the United States has such a bad government and why the most powerful (and greatest) country in the world is in a sharp decline.

    If you want to talk to others, then you must at least collect some knowledge related to the topic being discussed (for example, some of the knowledge points I listed in #post2). Otherwise, how do you come to talk to others.

    In addition, are you willing to discuss with dozens of Chinese people in Chinese at the same time?



    You and the US government are making America look worse and worse.
    I'm Canadian, so try again. Also, I haven't shown any indication of my knowledge on any of the situations you've brought up -- I'm happy to just read what others have said and form my own conclusions. What I have done, is brought up the same point everyone else brings up about you: you do not support your arguments with any form of fact; literally nothing you have said has swayed me in any way on any topic because you have no substance.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    You are certainly hard to understand.

    You feel that you have the answers to the points posed. Your answers will be filtered through your experiences, just as ours are filtered through our experiences. If western media has hypocrisy, is that because it doesn't speak with one voice? Western media is on all sides of every issue, it just depends on which one you want to listen to on any one issue. There are those on the right, the center right, the center left, the left, and out on the fringes of both of those. There are also western media outlets that are explicitly and intentionally false (the ones that talk about Elvis and bigoot having a baby, for example). So, it's all there, and all freely available. One of the issues in US society today is that any political group has media that meets its expectations, so there is no need for anybody to be exposed to any ideas that they don't already agree with.

    And yet you still talk of western media as if it were monolithic. Are you sure that isn't because there is a filter on what you see? If you see it all, then you wouldn't make statements as patently false as that, and yet you do.

    Therefore, answer your own questions. If you feel you have all the answers, share a few with us.
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by kfcSmitty View Post
    I'm Canadian, so try again.
    This does not affect my opinion at all. Although Canada is my favorite western country. But in most cases, we think that Canada and the United States are one country, at least on the political level (because many Chinese believe that Canada does not have its own political independence).

    In my eyes, you are a person without any knowledge and cultivation. I know you treat me the same way.
    Last edited by dreammanor; Jul 24th, 2020 at 12:25 PM.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    If you feel you have all the answers, share a few with us.
    I certainly have many answers (my own views and opinions). I have made it very clear that I want to wait until the conflict between the United States and China is over before I can talk about my views. In this regard, there are too many things to talk about, involving many aspects, and they come from the knowledge I have accumulated for decades.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by dreammanor View Post
    This does not affect my opinion at all. Although Canada is my favorite western country. But in most cases, we think that Canada and the United States are one country, at least on the political level (because many Chinese believe that Canada does not have its own political independence).
    China doesn't have the best track record realising what countries are tied to each other or not. And the fact that you think they're the same shows how ignorant you are of North America.

    Canada is nowhere near as polarised as the US is when it comes to politics, and the current US government has done a ton to sully the relationship between Canada and the US.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by dreammanor View Post
    I certainly have many answers (my own views and opinions). I have made it very clear that I want to wait until the conflict between the United States and China is over before I can talk about my views. In this regard, there are too many things to talk about, involving many aspects, and they come from the knowledge I have accumulated for decades.
    So you want to wait until everything has been decided to say where you stand? What cowardice. You've given new meaning to "Hindsight is 20/20"

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by kfcSmitty View Post
    China doesn't have the best track record realising what countries are tied to each other or not. And the fact that you think they're the same shows how ignorant you are of North America.

    Canada is nowhere near as polarised as the US is when it comes to politics, and the current US government has done a ton to sully the relationship between Canada and the US.
    I certainly know that Canada is not as polarized as the United States. What I mean is that Canada lacks political independence, and many times it has to succumb to pressure from the United States. Many times, we regard Canada as a state of the United States. Is not it?

    But I am very optimistic about Canada's development potential. I once joked with a friend that the most powerful countries in the world in the next 100 years will be the United States and China, but a hundred years later, the most powerful countries may be Canada and India.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by dreammanor View Post
    I certainly know that Canada is not as polarized as the United States. What I mean is that Canada lacks political independence, and many times it has to succumb to pressure from the United States. Many times, we regard Canada as a state of the United States.
    That is the most generic statement I have ever read. China has succumbed to pressure from the United States, the EU has succumbed to pressure from the United States... they are a super power and have a lot of control. Do you consider every country in the world that is less powerful than the US a state of the US?

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by kfcSmitty View Post
    So you want to wait until everything has been decided to say where you stand? What cowardice. You've given new meaning to "Hindsight is 20/20"
    In fact, some of my views have been expressed euphemistically and implicitly in some threads. Maybe you are wearing sunglasses, maybe my English is not good, and you don't know anything about my opinion. This is why I think you are a person without knowledge.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by kfcSmitty View Post
    That is the most generic statement I have ever read. China has succumbed to pressure from the United States, the EU has succumbed to pressure from the United States... they are a super power and have a lot of control. Do you consider every country in the world that is less powerful than the US a state of the US?
    No, China sometimes makes some concessions in diplomacy and economy, just to show a flexible posture. China has never succumbed to the pressure of any country on the big principle and big direction.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by dreammanor View Post
    I certainly have many answers (my own views and opinions). I have made it very clear that I want to wait until the conflict between the United States and China is over before I can talk about my views. In this regard, there are too many things to talk about, involving many aspects, and they come from the knowledge I have accumulated for decades.
    See you in the next life, then.
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by dreammanor View Post
    No, China sometimes makes some concessions in diplomacy and economy, just to show a flexible posture. China has never succumbed to the pressure of any country on the big principle and big direction.
    Neither has Canada, for that matter. We have the longest unsecured border in the world, yet the countries remain impressively distinct.
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by dreammanor View Post
    No, China sometimes makes some concessions in diplomacy and economy, just to show a flexible posture. China has never succumbed to the pressure of any country on the big principle and big direction.
    Making concessions is the same as succumbing to pressures. If China didn't succumb to pressure, it wouldn't feel the need to compromise at all.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by dreammanor View Post
    In fact, some of my views have been expressed euphemistically and implicitly in some threads. Maybe you are wearing sunglasses, maybe my English is not good, and you don't know anything about my opinion. This is why I think you are a person without knowledge.
    No, you've posted links and shown you're proud of China, but anytime someone challenges you on your point to actually get some substance from your post, you blow them off.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Neither has Canada, for that matter. We have the longest unsecured border in the world, yet the countries remain impressively distinct.
    I don't think the two countries are completely different. In the huge shadow, one is often merged with the other, or completely hidden by the other.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by kfcSmitty View Post
    Making concessions is the same as succumbing to pressures. If China didn't succumb to pressure, it wouldn't feel the need to compromise at all.
    No country or group of countries can make China yield.

    Quote Originally Posted by kfcSmitty View Post
    No, you've posted links and shown you're proud of China, but anytime someone challenges you on your point to actually get some substance from your post, you blow them off.
    Maybe Snowden and Assange can answer all your questions.

    You are like a baby and need someone to feed food into your mouth. Are you clear about the questions I listed in #Post2?

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Please note that "Uncle Roger" is a character portrayed by Malaysian comedian based in the UK. This is comedy, not meant as an insulting parody but I can imagine Chinese people disliking his comedy.



    We used to have a lot of comedians of different ethnic backgrounds doing this sort of thing. Now it tends to trigger people.

    Example:

    Last edited by dilettante; Jul 24th, 2020 at 01:56 PM.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by dreammanor View Post
    No country or group of countries can make China yield.
    You're brainwashed.

    Quote Originally Posted by dreammanor View Post
    You are like a baby and need someone to feed food into your mouth. Are you clear about the questions I listed in #Post2?
    I know it all; far more than you do and me talking to you is like a God talking to a baby.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    We used to have a lot of comedians of different ethnic backgrounds doing this sort of thing. Now it tends to trigger people.
    That's the best kind of comedy.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by kfcSmitty View Post
    You're brainwashed.



    I know it all; far more than you do and me talking to you is like a God talking to a baby.
    You seem to have become another me. It's ok.

    If you know all, then you should talk to FunkyDexter about your views on #Post1, I want to listen to the teachings of God.

    Edit:
    If you know all the questions in #Post2, I can predict that your comments will be very exciting. Let's start.
    Last edited by dreammanor; Jul 24th, 2020 at 02:11 PM.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Well I want to talk about the posted question.

    As far as Hong Kong goes, I'm not surprised by the crackdowns, as FD said it's a given. That's how an authoritarian government always ends up responding. Actually, I was surprised at how long the government let the protest continue. I thought for a while that maybe there had been some human rights progress in China.

    Now the situation in Portland and Seattle has me baffled. Both those cities were having protests going on long before the Floyd incident. But it intensified since. Now there is this cycle of peaceful protests during the day and then vandalism at night. I can understand the police not taking a hard line on the vandalism for the first few days after the Floyd death, but it's way past time start arresting people who are committing crimes. I don't care if you want to protest 24/7, go for it. But if you want to vandalize property then you need to be arrested.

    I'm certainly against these federal officers showing up unannounced and unidentified. Then they start to violate peoples civil rights. But what baffles me is why aren't the local law enforcement agencies do their jobs and protecting public/private property. Can you imagine if you owned a business in this area. I would expect it to be protected.

    So, what should happen if the local law enforcement wont provide protection and wont arrest people who are committing crimes. I'm pretty old and I've never seen this happen.

    In Portland's case I don't have a problem with using Federal officers if the local/state officers wont enforce the law but I do think they did it completely wrong. It should have been open and announced, they have to work within the law and not violate our civil rights.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    IMO, only by carefully studying the demonstrations in Hong Kong and comparing them with the demonstrations in the United States, then this thread will become very interesting and informative. This work needs kfcSmitty to complete. If he could do this, I will take back all my words against him and apologize to him.

  39. #39
    Hyperactive Member Peter Porter's Avatar
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by dreammanor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    OK, I'll rephrase. I won't be making you're argument for you.
    No, I have never been interested and have no time to debate, I just provide some information or questions for you to think when I occasionally have time. I think this is a way for me to give back (thank) to this forum.
    dreammanor, you've wrote quite a bit in this thread and others. If you know something, with all this time you have, why didn't you provide that info at the start instead of condescendingly telling Funky to go on an internet scavenger hunt in comment 2?

    Put up or... um.. Google the rest.
    Last edited by Peter Porter; Jul 24th, 2020 at 02:31 PM.

  40. #40
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Porter View Post
    dreammanor, you've wrote quite a bit in this thread and others. If you know something, with all this time you have, why didn't you provide that info at the start instead of condescendingly telling Funky to go on an internet scavenger hunt in comment 2?

    Put up or... um.. Google the rest.
    Even if I use Chinese to talk about Hong Kong, I have to write a lot of words.

    Why do I, a Chinese, post a lot of comments on this chat forum? It is because I was very surprised to see that some people have little knowledge of China's information. Not only do they have very little information, but most of the information is wrong. But I don't know how to correct their prejudices or misinformation. Just like you see hundreds of thousands of errors in 50 million lines of code, do you know where to start to fix them?

    If you see that 99% of the information about the United States held by almost all Chinese people is wrong, how do you use a language you are not familiar with (such as Chinese) to introduce the real situation in the United States to these dozens of people?
    Last edited by dreammanor; Jul 24th, 2020 at 03:13 PM.

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