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Thread: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

  1. #81
    Super Moderator jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    “Inconceivable!"
    "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”
    Nice, but ultimately quite wrong. It means exactly what I think it means and I was using it in exactly that sense. Let's get a definition off the web, shall we?
    not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.
    Now, maybe I'm wrong but I'm assuming that dilettante is smart enough to understand that there's more to those men being identified/identifiable than he described. At the very least, he's making no effort to understand the argument. Alternatively, he's incapable of doing so. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and sticking with "disingenuous" but if you would rather go with "dumb" then that's up to you.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    Nice, but ultimately quite wrong. It means exactly what I think it means and I was using it in exactly that sense. Let's get a definition off the web, shall we?

    Now, maybe I'm wrong but I'm assuming that dilettante is smart enough to understand that there's more to those men being identified/identifiable than he described. At the very least, he's making no effort to understand the argument. Alternatively, he's incapable of doing so. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and sticking with "disingenuous" but if you would rather go with "dumb" then that's up to you.
    As I said before, I got no horse in this race. It was a joke. Maybe you didn't see my previous post. It may not be funny but I can't be wrong, I didn't present any facts or opinion.
    Last edited by wes4dbt; Jul 30th, 2020 at 02:08 AM.

  3. #83
    Super Moderator jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    As I said before, I got no horse in this race. It was a joke.
    I think I started typing my reply before you submitted post #80. Regardless, my explanation is still relevant to dilettante. He now knows that I do know what the word means and why I thought it applied in that context. Of course, I suspect that he already did know that and the issue was more being offended at being accused of being disingenuous than concern that I may have meant something else.

    While some may be playing up an angle more than it deserves to be, the fact is that no one on the outside actually knows who these men are and if someone did just disappear, what exactly could anyone do about it? There would be no information about who took them or where they were taken. Even if someone died accidentally in custody, who is confident that those responsible would be held accountable? Not me, that's for sure.

  4. #84

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    They are also not identifying themselves by badge number, as police officers are obliged to do.
    ^That. Honestly, I can buy a uniform with "Police" on it from my local costume shop. If that's all that's required to qualify me to tear gas, club and detain people on the street then your country is in a pretty sorry state. Identifiable means individually identifiable. Without that abuse of power cannot be investigated. Vigilantism cannot be investigated.

    You're police recently demonstrated that they felt so empowered as to be able to murder citizens on the street in full view and the protests you're looking at are a response to that. Do you really feel that the answer to this problem is to remove the full view? Your answer to a lack of accountability is less accountability?

    by using marked vehicles, they are now targets. Surely you have seen the tens (if not hundreds) of police vehicles destroyed across the country, so they are saving taxpayer money
    Just... just... what? That's your justification for this?

    I never said I wanted people billy-clubbed
    Yeah, but you were building straw men by putting words in my mouth so I thought I'd return the favour.


    Edit> Oh, and JMs use of disingenuous was entirely correct. To think it wasn't was inconceivable.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Jul 30th, 2020 at 02:46 AM.
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    Fanatic Member Delaney's Avatar
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    I was wondering and I am asking the question to the American here. If the DHS consider the demonstrator/protestors as domestic terrorists, could they invoke the Patriot act to arrest them and make them disappear ?
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by Delaney View Post
    I was wondering and I am asking the question to the American here. If the DHS consider the demonstrator/protestors as domestic terrorists, could they invoke the Patriot act to arrest them and make them disappear ?
    As long as Bill Barr is Attorney General and the republicans have the majority in the Senate the Trump administration can do just about anything they want with impunity.
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    ^That. Honestly, I can buy a uniform with "Police" on it from my local costume shop.
    The difference (hopefully) is that their pants aren't held together with velcro.
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    As long as Bill Barr is Attorney General and the republicans have the majority in the Senate the Trump administration can do just about anything they want with impunity.
    I forgot the Supreme Court...it is stacked with republicans now. The members of that court like to say they are non-political and are actually liberal or conservative minded. You can put all the lipstick on that pig you want.
    Last edited by TysonLPrice; Jul 30th, 2020 at 12:52 PM.
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by Delaney View Post
    I was wondering and I am asking the question to the American here. If the DHS consider the demonstrator/protestors as domestic terrorists, could they invoke the Patriot act to arrest them and make them disappear ?
    Probably not, really. Since the whole thing was political, doing something like that would have had a thoroughly negative political consequence. It likely would have reinforced Trump's base, but his base isn't enough to win, and it would have utterly alienated anyone else.

    Technically, what can be done is always different from what IS done. You can do things that violate the law if the law will not be enforced. That happens a whole lot more than people realize. For example, we have speed limits. That doesn't mean you can't speed, it just means that you will probably get a ticket if you get caught speeding, and you may have to pay a fine. Everybody knows exceptions to that, though, and if you don't get caught, you can drive as fast as you want. So, every law is a matter of enforcement and consequences. It's not like a physical law, it's more of a convention as to what penalties will actually apply for certain actions.

    So, technically, yeah they could, but practically, no they can't.
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Actually reason has prevailed.

    Portland has requested that the Oregon State Police come in to defend Federal property against the criminals and eventually the DHS cops won't have to be there in such numbers.

    Oregon State Police deploy to Portland streets Thursday

    Local officials are still spinning hard claiming that these "lawful protests" go wrong when "a relatively small number" of them "come out of concealment" to begin attacking police and destroying public works and buildings. Sounds like things have just gone too far and Portland doesn't want to bear the brunt of the extended anti-American political rally any longer.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    What was insincere about posting two examples of Federal cops in Portland where you can see their uniforms identify them as police?

    Bullshit arguments are falling like flies in this thread.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    What was insincere about posting two examples of Federal cops in Portland where you can see their uniforms identify them as police?

    Bullshit arguments are falling like flies in this thread.
    It's already been explained several times. If you didn't get it then, there's no reason to think that you'll get it now. It's pretty simple stuff that others here seem to have little issue with so I can only assume that you're determined not to see what's in plain sight. That's what's insincere.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Oh, I get it.

    You parrot any nonsense that fits your narrative and reject any facts that don't Then you turn and start parroting additional nonsense hoping to cover your exposed lies. When that fails you reach into your bag of slurs.

    You don't care about reality, just maintaining your fact-free bubble of BS. If I didn't know that it is conscious propagandizing I'd say it's childish.

    People see right through that if they have any sense. When they do, it undermines any legitimacy your cause might have in their eyes. You are shooting yourself in the foot.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Yeah, I'm kind of thinking that you're doing the same, too. It's opinion. The facts get spun one way or the other, depending on your point of view. There is no objective truth that anyone seems to care about.
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Oh, I get it.
    No you don't. You ask questions that have already been answered. If you disagree you disagree but if you pretend that a case hasn't already been made then you're being disingenuous, and doubly so because you're being disingenuous about being disingenuous. You can make the same accusations over and over if it makes you feel better but people see right through that if they've bothered to read this thread.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Oh, I get it.

    You parrot any nonsense that fits your narrative and reject any facts that don't Then you turn and start parroting additional nonsense hoping to cover your exposed lies. When that fails you reach into your bag of slurs.

    You don't care about reality, just maintaining your fact-free bubble of BS. If I didn't know that it is conscious propagandizing I'd say it's childish.

    People see right through that if they have any sense. When they do, it undermines any legitimacy your cause might have in their eyes. You are shooting yourself in the foot.
    Let me try to make it as plain as possible. There's more to these federal agents being identified/identifiable than just wearing "Police" or "DHS" on their clothing. People have voiced a number of concerns over their appearance and behaviour. You might disagree with those concerns and that's something that we can discuss. The fact that you seem not to have even considered those concerns to begin with is problematic enough but feigning ignorance of them when they are expressed right here under your nose makes it worse. The icing on the cake is when you accuse people who disagree with you of merely parroting what they've heard elsewhere, as though anyone who comes to a different conclusion than you do couldn't possibly have done so by examining the information available to them. I guess denying that someone even holds a position is a good way of avoiding having to argue against it.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Seriously, are you guys even reading the articles you're citing? Because you're doing a great job of making my case for me. The first paragraph from that article (emphasis mine):-
    "The Oregon State Police's deployment to the city of Portland to protect government buildings downtown begins Thursday, assisting in what Gov. Kate Brown hopes will be the withdrawal of federal police and other agents who are widely viewed as escalating the unrest downtown."

    Oregon State Police are going to replace the anonymous Federal agents Trump sent in. His private army, far from quashing unrest, escalated it and is being withdrawn. So, yes, reason has prevailed. But not in the way you're clearly implying.

    My assumption is that those state police will be identifiable, will not be snatching peaceful protesters at random from the streets and will actually be following through with charges against the people they detain. I'm happy to give them a chance to prove that assumption correct. If they continue with the same practices I'll be raising the same concerns again.


    the extended anti-American political rally
    Anti-Authoritarian. Anti-Prejudice. But not Anti-American unless you equate those things with American values.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Jul 31st, 2020 at 03:38 AM.
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    The law enforcement aren't unidentified! You're sheep for thinking that they're unidentified!

    Oh wait, even Trump says they're unidentified: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaaT...outu.be&t=1707

    And jeez, I know a lot of people say Biden is incoherent, but I don't know how anyone can listen to an entire interview with Trump... watching that one was extremely wearing and I had to pause it several times for breaks.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    And jeez, I know a lot of people say Biden is incoherent, but I don't know how anyone can listen to an entire interview with Trump... watching that one was extremely wearing and I had to pause it several times for breaks.
    Well the Trumpers are pushing that.

    I can't listen to Trump for more than about few seconds. His constant lying and completely self serving statements with no regard for the American people angers me to much. They should create a Whack A Mole game with a likeness of his head. I could play it for hours. lol

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    Super Moderator jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by kfcSmitty View Post
    And jeez, I know a lot of people say Biden is incoherent, but I don't know how anyone can listen to an entire interview with Trump...
    I would say that the collective coherence of the candidates in the upcoming election may be the lowest in history. I would say that Trump is probably the slightly more coherent of the two when it comes to interviews but not by a big margin and when you're talking bullshit much of the time, coherence is not necessarily a good thing.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    I haven't seen Biden interviewed, is he that incoherent?

    Edit> So I googled "Joe Biden Interview" and watched this one at random. He stumbles over his words at the end and, in the middle, says "I'm so forward looking to" instead of "I'm so looking forward to" but overall it didn't seem too bad - more like Bush 2000 bad than Trump 2020 bad. I'm guessing there are worse examples so Link me up folks. I'm bored and need a larf.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Aug 6th, 2020 at 03:10 AM.
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    He had troubles even on the stump while they were still pretending there was a primary season:


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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    I don't know how to explain Trump's way of speaking.. it is just annoying and makes me anxious the entire time I hear him.

    The clips I've seen of Biden (mind you they're often from right-winged sites) often give me a Grandpa Simpson vibe.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by kfcSmitty View Post
    I don't know how to explain Trump's way of speaking.. it is just annoying and makes me anxious the entire time I hear him.

    The clips I've seen of Biden (mind you they're often from right-winged sites) often give me a Grandpa Simpson vibe.
    It is really pretty easy to explain Trump's way of speaking...if his mouth is moving he is lying. If he isn't reading off a teleprompter he is just making crap up. I was listening to him in an Axios interview from last week. He was saying that certain states are mailing ballots to everyone. The host corrected him saying they are sending applications for ballots. Trump repeated that lie three times and the host corrected three times. The last time Trump glared at him. Trump is surrounded by toadies/sycophants. He isn't used to being corrected when he spouts his garbage.

    When that is really pitiful is when it costs tens of thousands of American lives like right now! That is his way of speaking.
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    He had troubles even on the stump
    Yeah, that's a pretty good collection of gaffs.

    The thing that struck me, though, is that it's a collection. I could produce similar from GWB pretty easily. I certainly could have done it with Raegan. With those guys, their speeches were coherent but often contained gaffs and they'd often miss-speak or get a fact wrong - from that clip I'd assume the same about Biden.

    With Trump I feel like it's next level. You don't need to make a collection of out takes to make him look incoherent, you can just just watch a single speech. Does Biden ramble and segway in the way that Trump does? It's like he can't hold a single thought in his head for more than 10 seconds.
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    Yeah, that's a pretty good collection of gaffs.

    The thing that struck me, though, is that it's a collection. I could produce similar from GWB pretty easily. I certainly could have done it with Raegan. With those guys, their speeches were coherent but often contained gaffs and they'd often miss-speak or get a fact wrong - from that clip I'd assume the same about Biden.

    With Trump I feel like it's next level. You don't need to make a collection of out takes to make him look incoherent, you can just just watch a single speech. Does Biden ramble and segway in the way that Trump does? It's like he can't hold a single thought in his head for more than 10 seconds.
    I have to doubt the veracity of it. Just like they slowed down Pelosi's voice to make her sound drunk. Faux news just got caught today for two videos of Biden where the photo chopped them so they weren't even close to the true pictures. I don't have any reason not to think those were "doctored" too.
    Last edited by TysonLPrice; Aug 6th, 2020 at 02:50 PM.
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground



    But yeah, of course those are clips aggregated to make a point.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    This says "an interview" but it's really another collection:

    Last edited by dilettante; Aug 6th, 2020 at 06:58 PM.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    I tried to find something recent, preferably all in one piece rather than clips.

    I guess the cabal he fronts for isn't letting him in front of a camera much any more.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    I guess the cabal he fronts for isn't letting him in front of a camera much any more.
    As a number of genuine left-wing pundits have expressed lately, laying low is Biden's best option at the moment. Trump is doing his job for him right now. There are those committed Trump supporters or committed Republicans who will vote for Trump regardless but it's hard to see anyone who is currently on the fence watching his latest interview with Jonathon Swan and being persuaded that he's the guy to vote for. At best, Trump will be convincing undecided voters that there's no good option and that they may as well not vote at all.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Actually I'm seeing a lot of the Romney camp supporting Biden. They want more interventionist wars, more favorable trade "deals" with China, and in general align with his globalist agenda. Both faces of the Clinton-Bush duopoly are cramped by the flaming bag of crap on their doorstep that Trump presents.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Actually I'm seeing a lot of the Romney camp supporting Biden. They want more interventionist wars, more favorable trade "deals" with China, and in general align with his globalist agenda. Both faces of the Clinton-Bush duopoly are cramped by the flaming bag of crap on their doorstep that Trump presents.
    Establishment Democrats and Republicans do seem to agree on more than they disagree on, but there are a few key sticking points that prevent them admitting it. They can also con people into thinking that there's a choice when they are all serving the same interests for the most part.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    From the video in post 107 @ 1:30: "We hold these truths to be self evident. All men and women created by... the... oh, you know... the thing". Um, yeah, when you're running for US president and can't get that quote right it's not a good look. Although it's ironic that the presenter immediately stumbled over her own words at 1:48 (Ha! Gotta love that kind of karma. I bet the Germans have a word for that).

    From those clips I still get more of a GWB "They missunderestimated me" vibe than the totally incoherent word salads that Trump spills out but, yeah, it feels like you guys have got a choice between two different levels of goober.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Aug 7th, 2020 at 04:03 AM.
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    I have to doubt the veracity of it. Just like they slowed down Pelosi's voice to make her sound drunk. Faux news just got caught today for two videos of Biden where the photo chopped them so they weren't even close to the true pictures. I don't have any reason not to think those were "doctored" too.
    Correction:

    It wasn't Faux news that I read about it was the Trump campaign that manipulated the photos:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...ge%2Fstory-ans
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Speaking of photos, I see that the recent Biden ads contain only old still photos and either some mystery voice-over or in some cases a Biden impersonator doing the voice-over.

    I imagine they're whipping those Disney imagineers pretty hard right now trying to get Animatronic Joe working again before November,

  36. #116
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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Both of them could give any Brit a run for his money in an Upper Class Twit Olympics if they accepted foreign competitors.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Looks like Disney got at least his upper half operating again. Bolted to an armature behind a desk in his bunker like some sort of Farscape Leviathan Pilot I suppose:


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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Hilarious doctored fake news vs. reality:



    But this has gotten old. Sadly we'll see both more fake news and Biden dementia before this is over.

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Why do you keep posting this crap if you know it's fake?

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    Re: Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

    Derr.

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