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Thread: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

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    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    I was aware he was a slaver
    Then I take that bit back and apologise if it miss-represented you. I hope it was clear that was making a point about how many people weren't aware and why they weren't rather than anything about you personally.
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    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    No worries, my description of seeing the news wasn't clear - and I do basically agree with your point about most people lacking the knowledge, but it seems to have been improving in recent years.

    If nothing else, the events of the weekend enlightened many in Bristol about his 'secret' history.

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    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Nobody invites me to ANYTHING involving food.
    They are scared of the empty fridge Well I don't mind I used to be like that too for the greatest despair of my wife. If you happen to go to France sometimes, just let me know
    Last edited by Delaney; Jun 9th, 2020 at 08:01 AM.
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    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    I agree with everything you said there. I suspect the reason they didn't is because they really aren't "here to hear you".
    Then isn't that the essence of the problem?

    Consider that in many of the cities that had serious confrontational outcomes there are black people in high places within the Mayor's office and the Police force. And black or otherwise there have to be well-paid political advisors whispering in ears if not pulling many of the strings. It isn't as if these events came suddenly out of nowhere, forcing an involuntary reaction.

    I just don't see how they can be so ill-prepared to deal with such things in a more positive manner, if only to preserve their own careers and political power.

    So monumentally inept, or evil, or did the political calculation just show that confrontation had the better payoff?

    Something smells wrong here.

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    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    Yeah, nobodies going anywhere for some time. We're opening up, and cases are rising steadily in some areas. Brazil, India, and Russia are opening despite increasing cases.

    I've basically accepted that my plans for this fall (aside from a long, VERY remote, hike) might as well be put on hold for several months, if not a year.

    @Dil: I think that's a terrific idea. The one problem I have with it is the timing. At this time, I kind of feel that keeping people marching is slightly better than keeping them in one place, from a social distancing perspective. I have no idea whether or not that is right, and it would be easy to argue that I have it backwards, but I feel people will clump tighter before a stage than on a march. On the other hand, the way I think it would fail is that leaders would rather be on the stage than in the audience, and that would include the politicians.

    Edit: Just to be clear, I was referring to the earlier proposal, rather than the post you wrote as I was writing.

    On the more recent post: At city levels, there may not be high paid advisors. There certainly are advisors, and plenty of people yanking on whatever string they can find, from cobweb up to cable, but they probably aren't all that professional about it (which I assume is the high-paid part).

    I'd say that the bigger issue is that the people elected to those positions have very little experience, so they follow whatever guidance other people with very little experience come up with. Enlightened positions are pretty rare. They didn't get to where they were by either thinking outside the box, or through creative solutions. They may have those, but those are not the skills that put them in the job.
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    Fanatic Member Delaney's Avatar
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    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    Most of the politicians will follow whatever guidance that will keep them elected. So it is a question of number. They should act for everybody (not easy to do) but in reality you act for the majority that will keep you in place even if you bring anger to the minority.

    the major problem is to consider or speak of groups (black people, white people, old, women , police, etc.) instead of individual person (this man, this policeman/woman, this nurse, etc.) so you bring anger toward the group instead to bring anger toward the concerned person. Did you note that when it is a good action/thing, it is the person we speak of and not the group

    When I follow this kind of events/subject, I try to analyses it with this first thought : who get which benefice to do, to act, to speak.

    in this case : a black man killed by a white policeman, we arrive at "black lives matter again the police". I wonder who get which benefice because the police is not the problem (some policemen may be the problem) and black lives matter is not relevant because all lives matter.

    By the way have a look here: https://www.statista.com/statistics/...olice-by-race/
    I wonder if we will have riot from white people or unknown people at some points some days...
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    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    Quote Originally Posted by Delaney View Post
    Most of the politicians will follow whatever guidance that will keep them elected. So it is a question of number. They should act for everybody (not easy to do) but in reality you act for the majority that will keep you in place even if you bring anger to the minority.

    the major problem is to consider or speak of groups (black people, white people, old, women , police, etc.) instead of individual person (this man, this policeman/woman, this nurse, etc.) so you bring anger toward the group instead to bring anger toward the concerned person. Did you note that when it is a good action/thing, it is the person we speak of and not the group

    When I follow this kind of events/subject, I try to analyses it with this first thought : who get which benefice to do, to act, to speak.

    in this case : a black man killed by a white policeman, we arrive at "black lives matter again the police". I wonder who get which benefice because the police is not the problem (some policemen may be the problem) and black lives matter is not relevant because all lives matter.

    By the way have a look here: https://www.statista.com/statistics/...olice-by-race/
    I wonder if we will have riot from white people or unknown people at some points some days...
    This isn't really about one death. The black lives matter movement started way before, in 2013.

    I've seen that chart before. So in 2019 370 whites killed and 235 blacks. The problem is whites make up @ 60% of the population and black @ 12%. 5 to 1. All things equal 1,175 whites should have been killed.

    I don't think white people have a reason to riot yet.

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    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    It goes far beyond killings, too. If THAT'S all it was, it would be a relatively tractable problem. The boundaries of neighborhoods still follow the old red lines, so the overt discrimination of the past is still shaping the present. That also impacts stress on those growing up (poor generally have worse health than rich, all other factors being equal), which causes a long series of knock-on effects.
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    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    Well I can't argue that unresponsive government isn't the core issue. It underlies pretty much all of the problems people hit the streets over, from police behavior to severe economic inequality.

    So considering that... my wishes of answering protests with positive responses probably are naive. I just keep thinking there have to be some savvy folks out there who could make people in power understand the costs of confrontation and consider the benefits of receptive honest openness, peaceful productive engagement instead.

    Instead we'll probably see pandering and platitudes and token gestures rather than improvements to society in ways that could result in winners all around. I suppose that's how we got here in the first place.

    A pessimist is an optimist repeatedly faced with disappointment I guess.

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    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    I've seen that chart before. So in 2019 370 whites killed and 235 blacks. The problem is whites make up @ 60% of the population and black @ 12%. 5 to 1. All things equal 1,175 whites should have been killed.

    I don't think white people have a reason to riot yet.
    I was going to say basically the same thing. I've seen a significant number of people who have tried to use those statistics to claim that there is no issue for black people when they actually show the exact opposite.

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    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    Here's the graph you should have been looking at. It was literally a single link away from the one you posted.
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/...-ethnicity-us/

    black lives matter is not relevant because all lives matter.
    People really need to stop saying this. Yes, all lives do indeed matter. But it's black ones that demonstrably don't at present and in repeatedly usurping that phrase you send the massage that you don't give a crap.

    Here's a good metaphor. Your house is burning down. You run to your neighbour and scream "My house is burning down. My house matters." If your neighbours response was "all houses matter" you would surmise that he was dismissing your situation and you would rightly scream "yes, but mines the one burning down, you dick!"

    Seriously, if we, with all the privilege we hold, cannot even allow black people a three word phrase to express their pain and fear without co-opting it so we can pat ourselves on the back for our linguistic brilliance, what does that say about us?

    Our house isn't the one that's burning.

    I've seen that chart before. So in 2019 370 whites killed and 235 blacks. The problem is whites make up @ 60% of the population and black @ 12%. 5 to 1. All things equal 1,175 whites should have been killed.
    Spot on.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Jun 10th, 2020 at 03:25 AM.
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    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    Quote Originally Posted by Delaney View Post
    black lives matter is not relevant because all lives matter
    You have to be fairly dense not to understand what "black lives matter" actually means and I don't think that most people who say things like "all lives matter" are that stupid, so I can only assume that they are being wilfully obtuse. I heard it expressed eloquently the other day but it wasn't news to me, but it seems like it is to some people. It went along these lines:
    When we say "black lives matter" we don't mean "black lives matter more than other lives". Of course all lives matter but, at the moment, it seems like black lives matter less to some people than the lives of some others.
    When you hear "black lives matter" think "the lives of black people should be treated as though they matter as much as the lives of white people and others, because they do" and you'll be on the right track. This determination to not understand what this slogan means is yet another case of equality being cast as oppression by the privileged.

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    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    Quite a pertinent article from BBC News:-
    7 Ways to deal with policing problems
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    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    in this case : a black man killed by a white policeman, we arrive at "black lives matter again the police". I wonder who get which benefice because the police is not the problem (some policemen may be the problem) and black lives matter is not relevant because all lives matter.
    Wes, FD, JMC i was reading these post in order and was getting myself ready to reply to that nonsense, but you guys saved me a job with your great posts.

    Hear is hoping that this time though we get more than words from our leaders.

    one thing i will address though the idea that the police are not the problem, its just a few bad officers is something i have heard few times and it's just wrong. The police in the UK and the US and yes in France too have a inbuilt and long standing racism problem, and officers are protected by there police forces and unions etc form facing any consequences of there actions, until it seems now. Hopefully this continues and we get systemic change.
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    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    You have to be fairly dense not to understand what "black lives matter" actually means and I don't think that most people who say things like "all lives matter" are that stupid, so I can only assume that they are being wilfully obtuse. I heard it expressed eloquently the other day but it wasn't news to me, but it seems like it is to some people. It went along these lines:

    When you hear "black lives matter" think "the lives of black people should be treated as though they matter as much as the lives of white people and others, because they do" and you'll be on the right track. This determination to not understand what this slogan means is yet another case of equality being cast as oppression by the privileged.
    Saw this on FB the other day and I feel it makes the point clear:

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    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    Well statues are coming down across the UK, particularly Bristol. They've taken Colston's name off his tower block and the University are rethinking the naming of a bunch of their buildings.

    I personally do think there's a small danger of expunging history here but, given just how one sided the situation currently is, I'll still take this as a win. Because those statues and street names aren't history, they're propaganda. Unless you're will to put the problematic aspects of our history front and centre alongside those monuments you're not teaching history.
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    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    I personally do think there's a small danger of expunging history here
    Because those statues and street names aren't history, they're propaganda.
    You got it second time FD

    You dont need a statue to teach History we have books for that. You wouldn't expect to see a statue of Hitler in Berlin because it teaches history, you would rightly say it glorifies Hitler (which is probably why they tore them all down post war) and that is what we are doing with these statue we are glorifying Slavers in the UK and Confederacy Generals in the US who fought a war so they could maintain slavery for there own benefit.

    It shouldn't have taken a demonstration and forcible removal for them to come down.
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    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    Once you get rid of those, things start getting weird. Consider the legacy of Andrew Carnegie. It's not Colston, but it's...complicated. He basically made a ton of money off the backs of people, not always badly, then used that money to fund a large amount of philanthropic objectives.
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    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Once you get rid of those, things start getting weird. Consider the legacy of Andrew Carnegie. It's not Colston, but it's...complicated. He basically made a ton of money off the backs of people, not always badly, then used that money to fund a large amount of philanthropic objectives.
    Was just think about this yesterday. He sent 1,000's of people to an early grave because of greed. Extremely long hours, unsafe working conditions and minimal wages. Wasn't just him, seems like early industrialists had no regard for their workers. This was just another form of oppression, on step up from slavery. Then if they give enough money away it's OK to consider them great people. They may have achieved some great things but it was only because they were willing to disregard the suffering they caused.

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    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    The point can be taken further. Anybody who managed to gather great wealth did is by some means. Whether society of the day deemed the means fair or foul, societies of another day may well change their minds. Similar cases could be made about Bill Gates, Zuckerberg, and so forth. Bill Gates provided something useful to the world, but his wealth comes from the fact that he did so in a fairly ruthless manner. I wouldn't be one to condemn him for what amounts to business. Lots of millionaires came out of MS, including some close relatives of mine, but how will future generations see it?


    There are some who see any accumulation of that much wealth as having come from someone else. In the case of Gates, it may not be the case, as he both did the early work himself, and global wealth increased as a result of computers, which means that he got a big piece of a pie, but it was a pie he, himself, contributed to making much bigger. Andrew Carnegie didn't do the work himself, but did make the pie bigger.

    It gets complicated if you look at it enough.
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    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    The point can be taken further. Anybody who managed to gather great wealth did is by some means. Whether society of the day deemed the means fair or foul, societies of another day may well change their minds. Similar cases could be made about Bill Gates, Zuckerberg, and so forth. Bill Gates provided something useful to the world, but his wealth comes from the fact that he did so in a fairly ruthless manner. I wouldn't be one to condemn him for what amounts to business. Lots of millionaires came out of MS, including some close relatives of mine, but how will future generations see it?


    There are some who see any accumulation of that much wealth as having come from someone else. In the case of Gates, it may not be the case, as he both did the early work himself, and global wealth increased as a result of computers, which means that he got a big piece of a pie, but it was a pie he, himself, contributed to making much bigger. Andrew Carnegie didn't do the work himself, but did make the pie bigger.

    It gets complicated if you look at it enough.
    I'm having a hard time comparing working for Amazon or Microsoft to working in a Coal mine, Coke factory or steel plant in the early 1900's. Being ruthless in business and being inhumane to workers aren't the same to me.

    Though I don't doubt that if society would let them, they would treat them inhumanely if it increased their profits. Actually Amazon starts new employees just a little above minimum wage (at least where I live). Knew one person that after five years was making @ $17hr. In this area a two bedroom apartment is going to be $1,000+ so your struggling at $17hr.

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    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    This was just another form of oppression, on step up from slavery
    Oh it's many steps up from slavery. I'll agree with you that economic expoitation is a form of oppression but those two aren't even in the same league. They aren't even playing the same game.

    I don't know anything about Carnegie so I won't comment on him in particular but I think the key is right here:-
    Whether society of the day deemed the means fair or foul, societies of another day may well change their minds
    They should be allowed to and they should be able to desist from continuing to blindly lionise people who fail to meet the current standard of morality. We don't need to continue to excuse past evils on the basis that it seemed ok at the time. It wasn't OK, whether it seemed it is immaterial.

    I'm perfectly willing to accept that great people do and did do bad things. And I don't have a problem with celebrating people's greatness but not if you close your eyes to the bad. Colston is an extreme example of this but let's take Churchill. I'm a military history nerd and I'm not ashamed to say that Churchill continues to be a hero of mine. I'm also not afraid to say that he believed in eugenics, was pivotal in the creation of concentration camps in the Boer war and almost certainly ordered the use of chemical weapons against the Kurds. He was an imperialist and he viewed non whites as lesser than whites. I don't have a problem with him having a statue but, if he's going to have that statue, then the context of the man needs to be given the same level of exposure - ideally right there alongside the statue. For that reason I struggle to condemn whoever it was that painted "racist" on his statue because that is the unpalatable truth. Our heros can be flawed. We should not be afraid to be confronted with those flaws.

    Here's what I think, you can look at many of our historical heroes and not know about the bad they did because you have never been confronted with it. This leads to a skewed perception of history that we are indoctrinated (strong word but I'll stand by it) into from out earliest education and right through our adult lives. That is why it's so uncomfortable when we're confronted with the truth. We have been fed propaganda and are left ignorant because if it.

    Churchill was, in my opinion, a hero. He was also a racist.
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    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    We can't quite say what those who come well after us will see as an evil policy. Perhaps nothing, perhaps the way we deal with health (in the US), or poverty, or....well, who's to say. There are plenty of people who are consistently getting the short end of whatever stick is around at the time.
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    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    Sure, but we're not talking about how history will judge us, we're talking about how we judge history. Stating that we have no agency in the former does not absolve us of responsibility for the latter.

    I also think that these arguments tend to overstate our lack of agency over what the future will think of us. I don't believe people ever thought that slavery or racism were "right". It's not like there weren't voices decrying them right though history. They just they could benefit without being held accountable. We have an opportunity to hold them accountable now. It's our responsibility to take it.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Jun 14th, 2020 at 04:40 AM.
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    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    I don't have a problem with him having a statue but, if he's going to have that statue, then the context of the man needs to be given the same level of exposure - ideally right there alongside the statue. For that reason I struggle to condemn whoever it was that painted "racist" on his statue because that is the unpalatable truth. Our heros can be flawed. We should not be afraid to be confronted with those flaws.
    As usually your posts are articulate and well thought out. But as I read your post I had a thought that I want to post but it is not I'm disagreeing with what you posted. It just made me think:

    Should we just start walking through graveyards and spray painting the "sins" of the dead on their headstones in retrospect?
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    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    That's kind of what I was thinking. I feel that we should for some, and not for others, and I'm not quite comfortable with that ambivalent position. For example, when it comes to the US Civil War, there were some pretty bad people on both sides, and they should be noted as such. However, the cause that the South fought for was abominable, and yet the positions of people on either side of that conflict were far more complex than is generally acknowledged. There were civil wars within the Civil War, especially in Appalachia, while there were loads of immigrants fighting for the North who didn't so much care about the issues involved as caring about getting a toehold in a new land. And then there's the fact that pretty quickly, soldiers aren't fighting for any cause other than the people beside them in the line.

    I kind of think that historians will end up looking at the events in that war without looking at the broader context of the war, and have done so. Meanwhile, there are others who are clearly looking at the context without looking at the narrower events (otherwise there wouldn't be a Ft. Bragg). Some people talk about the battles because they are interesting history. Others do so to signal a position that they can't state. I'd rather not give up the former, but perhaps we should simply because of the latter.
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    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    History isn't always what we think it is.

    Churchill famously promoted a myth that the U.S. Army was involved in distributing smallpox blankets to natives. Fact was, that was Pennsylvania (Fort Pitt) and it was done by the Brits using Swiss mercenaries, well before there was a U.S. at all. By 1832 the U.S. was providing a smallpox vaccination program to native peoples.

    It wasn't until the conquering of the Pacific Northwest beyond the Dakotas that the tactic arose again. Hudson's Bay Company and rogue "settlement barons" based in New York and London sent out agents to pass out blankets laden with smallpox and measles to the native populations. This practice arose many times up until almost 1900.

    Some of the latter is portrayed in passing in the movie "Broken Trail" along with enslavement of Chinese women.

    There are plenty of other statues erected to "founding figures" with nefarious pasts. Canada and the U.S. are filled with them.

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    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    Should we just start walking through graveyards and spray painting the "sins" of the dead on their headstones in retrospect?
    I would say no but there's a fundamental difference. A grave stone is a commemoration. A statue is a celebration. We don't look to commemorations to teach us about morality. Nobodies objecting to Colston having a gravestone.
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    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    I don't believe people ever thought that slavery or racism were "right". It's not like there weren't voices decrying them right though history.
    I'd have to disagree with that. People for millenniums thought it was right to enslave the conquered. The inferior.

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    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    People also used the bible to prove that slavery was correct. The ability of people to show that their way of thinking is the correct way, thereby justifying their actions, is almost without limit.
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    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    Sometimes the person with a pineapple on their head is a pineapple.

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    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

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    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    The ability of people to show that their way of thinking is the correct way, thereby justifying their actions, is almost without limit.
    I think that sums it up. People's ability to self justify their bad actions is almost boundless. But that's materially different from knowing in your core that what you're doing is wrong.

    To make a somewhat trite comparison, when I eat a bacon sandwich I am aware that my action results in cruelty to a pig. I can and do justify that to myself in terms of a pigs life being less important than my pleasure and nutritional needs. I place myself above the pig. Mostly I just choose not to think about the pig. But I know and have always known that vegetarianism would be a more moral choice.

    If, in the future, our society reaches a point where the life of that pig is given equal weight to my own then I will be comfortable with that future society condemning my actions as murder.
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    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    Well if anyone can give a pig full rights, medical and financial stimulus Im sure it will be the democraps
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    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    Quote Originally Posted by RobDog888 View Post
    Well if anyone can give a pig full rights, medical and financial stimulus Im sure it will be the democraps
    What's this? A drive by insulting.

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    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

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    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    Sometimes the person with a pineapple on their head is a pineapple.
    And sometimes they are Jason Lee
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    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    This is a good watch on possible measures to reform policing in the wake of the murder of George Floyd. It's given my a lawyer who's usual schtick on You Tube is light heartedly pulling apart TV and film court room drama but he does do some serious stuff as well. He's no fan of Trump but, other than that, he's actually pretty neutral between Lib and Rep so you won't see a strong bias either way. He makes some pretty balanced arguments.
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    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    This scene came to mind today:


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    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    he's actually pretty neutral between Lib and Rep
    That probably ought to be "Lib and Con" or "Dem and Rep". Of course, if your actual position is between American Democrats and Republicans then that puts you well on the right in most other "Western" countries.

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