Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

[FunkyDexter]

I'm fully aware of and give thought to both problems.

That's fair and I'll amend my wording. You appear to be ignoring it, which is not the same or as bad.

But right now appearances are incredibly important because there is an army of people out there who actually do believe that black lives don't matter and they're desperate for your validation. And your silence will be validation enough. And I'm not just talking about the jack booted thugs throwing Nazi salutes, I'm talking about the massive majority of our societies who just want to go back to quietly not caring because that's more comfortable.

So I still come back to where I started, if you're looking for anyone to condemn looting and you haven't yourself loudly and publicly condemned the ongoing and unchanging situation that led us to this, then you're focus is still in the wrong place.

[TysonLPrice]

Really? Isn't it?

Few people criticize the right to peaceful protest. It is only when things turn ugly that they start asking questions.

There will always be some on both sides of an issue who choose to follow a path of violence to raise visibility: protesters and society's peace enforcers. How the media handles this also plays into it. Put enough fuel and oxidizer in proximity and casually tossing lit matches is a recipe for disaster.

It's a hard problem. If you add powerful forces benefiting from societal division to the mix it gets that much harder.

I agree with FunkyDexter:

This is about the racism and authoritarianism in our societies running at levels where police feel they have the right kill the people they are supposed to serve. That is the cause, everything else is an effect.

I think that is exactly right. There is a lot of attention about the protests and when they turn into riots and that is news worthy in itself. But they are sparked by racism and authoritarianism and they wouldn't be occurring at all without that and recent events.

[NeedSomeAnswers]

The problem is If you look at certain parts of the media you might think that Looting is the only thing that is happening, all they want to talk about is the looting.

If these people are really interested in law and order then surely we would be hearing equally about how the Police have been firing teargas at peaceful protesters, but no what we get is a narrative of looters that the police need to use force to arrest and disperse. The looters are in a vast minority, and while they should be arrested for what the are doing it does shine a light on a system that values property over the life of black people.

Where were these people condemning the police for the death of Georgie Floyd, i didn't hear them, where were they condemning the fact that it took two months to arrest 2 white men of gunning down a black jogger in the middle of a public street, but as soon as they see looting then out pours the anger and the condemnation.

Thats the hypocrisy of the situation, what they are doing is deliberately trying to distract from that fact that this is one of the biggest peaceful protests in US history and they are trying to distract from the message hoping that it will go away and things can return to what they deem to be normal.

[TysonLPrice]

The problem is If you look at certain parts of the media you might think that Looting is the only thing that is happening, all they want to talk about is the looting.

If these people are really interested in law and order then surely we would be hearing equally about how the Police have been firing teargas at peaceful protesters, but no what we get is a narrative of looters that the police need to use force to arrest and disperse. The looters are in a vast minority, and while they should be arrested for what the are doing it does shine a light on a system that values property over the life of black people.

Where were these people condemning the police for the death of Georgie Floyd, i didn't hear them, where were they condemning the fact that it took two months to arrest 2 white men of gunning down a black jogger in the middle of a public street, but as soon as they see looting then out pours the anger and the condemnation.

Thats the hypocrisy of the situation, what they are doing is deliberately trying to distract from that fact that this is one of the biggest peaceful protests in US history and they are trying to distract from the message hoping that it will go away and things can return to what they deem to be normal.

I'm guessing you are referring to Faux news and if you are not they are doing what you mentioned. In part that organization and Trump feed off of each other. Many of Trump's policies are picked right up off Faux commentators. "Don't let the cure be worse than the disease" came right off of Faux and Trump picked it up the next day. Trump's whole Hydroxychloroquine campaign came right off of Faux's Laura Ingraham. John Hannity is considered an informal staff member. And their focus lately has been only the looters and cops that are hurt. That is just fine and deserves coverage. They ignore exactly what you mentioned.

[dreammanor]

But right now appearances are incredibly important because there is an army of people out there who actually do believe that black lives don't matter and they're desperate for your validation. And your silence will be validation enough. And I'm not just talking about the jack booted thugs throwing Nazi salutes, I'm talking about the massive majority of our societies who just want to go back to quietly not caring because that's more comfortable.

So I still come back to where I started, if you're looking for anyone to condemn looting and you haven't yourself loudly and publicly condemned the ongoing and unchanging situation that led us to this, then you're focus is still in the wrong place.

Agree with your opinion.

The silence of the good people is worse than the brutality of the bad people.
https://weibo.com/tv/v/J5etyFilF?fid...12472770478099

IMO, "tribal theory" is just an excuse for not solving practical problems. "Tribal theory" can explain China's "regional discrimination" well, but it cannot explain "racial discrimination" in the United States.

Well, 100 or 200 years from now maybe this problem will solve itself...

This shocked me. If this problem is really not solved until 100 or 200 years later, then the United States may have been fallen into a third-rate country at that time.

[FunkyDexter]

The looters are in a vast minority

I've never heard the phrase "vast minority" before but I'm definitely stealing it.

I do want to say again that I'm worried my comments are coming across as an attack on Wes. Wes, I'm honestly not intending to do that and I apologise if that's the effect. If it is the effect then that's my failure in communication and I'm sorry. I really admire that you're in here making your arguments. The fact that it's you that I'm responding to is really just because you're the only person in here making them and, for that, thank you. It allows the debate to happen.

Just to be clear, every time I say "you" I'm not aiming it at you (apart from that one), I'm aiming it at everyone who is allowing the narrative to be moved on before the death of George Floyd is properly aired and examined. Right now there are vested interests desperate for the narrative to skip over that and I feel it needs to be fought.

And with that in mind I'm going to post this on where I believe the focus should be: A police officer felt so immune that he murdered a man, in broad daylight, in front of a crowd of people, knowing that he was being filmed.

Actually, forget that he was police officer. That, in itself, is a distraction. That any society should have reached the point that it's structure allows anyone to feel that elevated is terrifying and needs examination.

IMO, "tribal theory" is just an excuse for not solving practical problems.

I 100% agree. I don't have a problem with tribal theory in so far as it explains a lot of human behaviour but I don't think it should be allowed to excuse that behaviour, which it often is.

[TysonLPrice]

Agree with your opinion.

The silence of the good people is worse than the brutality of the bad people.
https://weibo.com/tv/v/J5etyFilF?fid...12472770478099

IMO, "tribal theory" is just an excuse for not solving practical problems. "Tribal theory" can explain China's "regional discrimination" well, but it cannot explain "racial discrimination" in the United States.



This shocked me. If this problem is really not solved until 100 or 200 years later, then the United States may have been fallen into a third-rate country at that time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist

Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist

Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist

Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew

Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me

[Shaggy Hiker]

I don't have a problem with tribal theory in so far as it explains a lot of human behaviour but I don't think it should be allowed to excuse that behaviour, which it often is.

It's not an excuse, nor is it meant to be. I'm not a big fan of the idea that humans are intelligent. Whenever we look at something that is intelligence, it turns out to be pattern recognition in a different guise. This is true for things as diverse as playing chess, art, or racism. For this reason, I'm not entirely sure that we CAN change. As the saying goes: Progress rides on a hearse.

Once the pattern is fixed in the brain, it can become impossible to remove it. Unless you consciously focus on the defective pattern, your brain will bring your attention to examples that fit the expected pattern and suppress examples that counter the pattern. As far as I can tell, this behavior will persist unless you systematically examine the pattern, in which case you are explicitly attempting to replace a faulty pattern with a less faulty pattern.

What I'm saying is that it isn't learning. If ALL the human brain is good at is pattern recognition, then EVERYTHING is fit into a pattern of one sort or another. Thus, you will always be biased. You might change a harmful bias for a less harmful bias, which you can do by swapping one pattern for another, but there's always a pattern.

On the other hand, we can change overt behavior, and we have. I'm not sure that we have ever shifted the biases, we may have done no more than get people to modify how they express the biases. If that is the case, real change can only be generational. Kids learn a lot from their parents. If people behave better, then their kids are likely to learn that pattern rather than the patterns driving their parents, and their kids may not have discriminatory patters at all.

While this is pessimistic, I haven't seen any real flaw in it. The US has gotten less and less racist, but it isn't that the old racists of the 1900s, 1910s, 1920s, and so forth, have become more enlightened...they've just died. Some folks will swap one pattern for another. Most won't.

[dilettante]

I haven't seen much serious discussion of remedies yet. Surely everyone wants a better society than those we have today?

Why not move into specific changes, like reforming the Clinton Crime Bill and demilitarizing the local police forces as done under Bush and Obama in the U.S.? Dismantling the U.K. CCTV domestic surveillance network? Addressing poverty by removing barriers to opportunity, honestly identifying those barriers?

Some of those hit specific communities harder than others, but they have impacts on the members of struggling classes no matter the background.

Or is the entire thing another cynical political ploy by puppet masters feeling power slip from their grasp? It smells pretty bad, and we're even hearing Russia brought up again as part of it. That has almost become the smoking gun and fingerprints of certain political parties fallen into disrepute.

It is hard to distinguish between those suckered in and those acting as agents.

[dilettante]

I guess I was trying to say it feels more helpful to convince people by listing things that can be changed. Making it clear the issue is fairness and that there are specific remedies to get us closer to that.

[dreammanor]

Obama said yesterday that this is a long-term "structural" issue in the United States. Could "structural" problems be solved by "remedial measures"?

[dilettante]

Another thing we see little reporting of is that George Floyd tested positive for COVID-19, Fentanyl, methamphetamine, and THC. None of that defends a brutal street execution but it doesn't look good. A recipe for poor decision-making.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Yeah, we never get a perfect victim.

Of course, they only test the victim.

[dilettante]

By all means test the cops. No valid reason not to.

[kfcSmitty]

Another thing we see little reporting of is that George Floyd tested positive for COVID-19, Fentanyl, methamphetamine, and THC. None of that defends a brutal street execution but it doesn't look good. A recipe for poor decision-making.

Took 4 days to move to victim blaming.. that's fast.

[wes4dbt]

So I still come back to where I started, if you're looking for anyone to condemn looting and you haven't yourself loudly and publicly condemned the ongoing and unchanging situation that led us to this, then you're focus is still in the wrong place.

Don't think that was the tone of my original post,

Strange time here in the US. I was raised in the sixties so I got no problem with protests. Riots and looting just leave me feeling sad. It destroys what good the protests may achieve. I have to admit I don't remember ever seeing this wide spread protesting. Made me worry today when I saw force, tear gas and rubber bullets used on the peaceful protesters in front of the White House today, before the curfew. So Trump could walk across the street to the church. There might be a backlash they weren't expecting from that, just feeds the fire. Need to concentrate on the criminals.

My guess is this just like what happens after a mass shooting, all kinds of outrage, all kinds of people committed to change, then six weeks later things gate back to normal and nothing has changed.

That last line is really my main worry, how do we make actual long lasting change.

[Shaggy Hiker]

By all means test the cops. No valid reason not to.

I wasn't going to suggest that, actually. There are several groups that get automatically tested in certain situations. For example, if a commercial truck driver is involved in an accident, they will be tested for drugs in their system. In the case of police, I'm not sure how such a rule could be written, or why it ever would be.

The reason that truck drivers are tested is to see whether or not drug use may have been a causal factor in the accident. When it comes to a police shooting, would we really be asking whether drugs are a causal factor? We could, of course, but does it really matter? Also, in the case of Mr. Floyd, there wasn't a shooting, so such a rule wouldn't apply. What rule could be written that would apply and also be reasonable? Does there have to be a death? Does it have to be the Police, or do EMT folk also get tested? If not, why not? If it doesn't have to be a death, do the police have to be tested for any arrest? How about for a ticket?

I just don't think it should matter beyond whether or not the drugs were the direct cause of death. In this case, the cause of death was ruled homicide by all coroners who performed autopsies, so everything else is irrelevant...until somebody decides to make it relevant.

[wes4dbt]

It's not an excuse, nor is it meant to be. I'm not a big fan of the idea that humans are intelligent. Whenever we look at something that is intelligence, it turns out to be pattern recognition in a different guise. This is true for things as diverse as playing chess, art, or racism. For this reason, I'm not entirely sure that we CAN change. As the saying goes: Progress rides on a hearse

Shaggy you post the most interesting concepts.

On the other hand, we can change overt behavior, and we have. I'm not sure that we have ever shifted the biases, we may have done no more than get people to modify how they express the biases. If that is the case, real change can only be generational. Kids learn a lot from their parents. If people behave better, then their kids are likely to learn that pattern rather than the patterns driving their parents, and their kids may not have discriminatory patters at all.

I like this paragraph a lot. Biases can't be just switched on and off. I'm still stuck with my highly biased up bringing. But my behavior has changed significantly.

[FunkyDexter]

Another thing we see little reporting of is that George Floyd tested positive for COVID-19, Fentanyl, methamphetamine, and THC. None of that defends a brutal street execution but it doesn't look good. A recipe for poor decision-making.

This post is the equivalent of discussing what a rape victim was wearing. It's both reprehensible and irrelevant. I'm sure that wasn't your intention but, please, take a step back a second on that one. I know we disagree on some stuff but I regard you as a much better person than that.

It's not an excuse, nor is it meant to be...

I agree with a lot of your arguments but not your conclusion. Because your conclusion, at least as I'm reading it, is an excuse. It boils down to "people typically don't change and when they do it's imprecise so...<shrug>". We absolutely can change our biases but it's hard and extremely uncomfortable. Under normal circumstances I'd recommend everyone to go on a march over the weekend. You don't have to believe in the cause but you may well end up moving in that direction because marching does two things:-

1. It exposes you to a cause in a way you will simply not experience through the passive consumption of media or discussions within your peer circle. You will meet people who have been directly exposed to whatever problem is being confronted, you will be confronted with the fact that they are an awful lot like you and you will not be able to avoid hearing what they have to say. If you really want to challenge and change your biases, joining a march is an great shortcut to doing so.
2. It lends your voice to the cause, loudly and publicly.

Of course, these aren't normal circumstances due to Corona, so probably don't do that right now. It's really up to you whether you feel staying silent at a time like this is more or less of a wrong than risking spreading a deadly virus and I don't want to belittle anyone's decision because it is absolutely a grave one, but I will be going on Sunday. It'll be the first march I've been on in 15 years. Realistically there is no other cause I would do this for and I don't expect anyone else to arrive at the same conclusion as me. But here's what you can do instead to go some way to replicating it.

1. Listen. There are plenty of black talking heads on the TV right now telling you about their experience. Take them at face value and treat them as honest. Do not question whether they have an underlying agenda or have a chip on their shoulder, just hear what they're saying. Don't try and imagine yourself in their position, you won't be able to. Just listen and trust. And absolutely do not sit, considering your counter arguments. You do not have to agree with them but you do owe them your honest, open consideration.

2. Speak. Put a black lives matter poster in your window, post a black square on your Instagram page. The Mayor of Bristol, Marvin Rees (of whom I'm not normally a fan) made what I thought was a great suggestion: take a knee, take a selfie of yourself doing it and tweet that to your Police Chief and President. I'd add to that, you should do it in your front garden and do your best to make sure your neighbours see you doing it because, if you feel uncomfortable about what your neighbours might think, then that is indicative of a problem either with you, or your neighbours, or both. The discomfort is part of the learning process because it forces you to confront your prejudices.

It's important to note that 1 (Listen) comes before 2 (Speak)

Why not move into specific changes

That's a very good suggestion. I honestly don't enough about the detail of some of your suggestions but I'll try and give my opinions as best I can and add a few of my own.

reforming the Clinton Crime Bill

I honestly don't know what it is so I'll just skip that one.

demilitarizing the local police forces as done under Bush and Obama in the U.S.

Hell yes! I could hug you for that one.

Dismantling the U.K. CCTV domestic surveillance network

I know where you're coming from on that one but I disagree. I do think there's too much CCTV in this country but it's not like it's often portrayed. It's excessive rather than invasive and I feel the monitoring we allow ourselves to be subjected through Social Media, purchase tracking and GPS locating by our phones is much worse. Also, the prevalence of CCTV (often in private hands) can be a great source of evidence when incidents like this happen.

Addressing poverty by removing barriers to opportunity, honestly identifying those barriers?

Dil, if I thought your other post was bad, you have 100% exonerated yourself in my eyes with that single sentence. Particularly in highlighting that we often don't honestly attempt to identify and understand those barriers. You put listening first and I applaud you for doing so.

Here's a few of my own:-
1. Consolidate your police forces somewhat. There are over 40,000 separate police force in the US with different standard, different training regimes and different cultures, many of them consisting of one or two man bands. I get that having a local force focussed on the community is beneficial and I wouldn't want you to lose that but I believe that can be retained. This level of fragmentation means that it is impossible to address cultural problems and it also creates an umbrella for bad officers as they simply jump from force to force.
2. Standardise training. In North Carolina it requires less than 80 days to become a policeman. I mean, I guess it covers the weapons training but not much else. A licenced barber requires 190 days.
3. Mandatory Body Cameras. Failing to have your body camera running on shift should be a disciplinary. Failing to have it running during a violent incident should be a minor criminal offence brought in addition to any other offences arising from the incident itself.
4. Removal of privileged protections, e.g. Privileged Immunity. I get that police have to make life or death decisions in extreme circumstances, but repeatedly, that's not we see. George Floyd was face down and handcuffed. I know that the nature of the job requires some slack be given to officers but your judicial system allows for judgement in sentencing to be exercised by judges on a case by case basis. Those protections do not need to be enshrined.

[dilettante]

[FunkyDexter]

Oh it's the mandatory minimum sentence thing. Yeah, I'm with you. Ditch that. It takes no account of extenuating circumstance and is basically saying that you don't trust your judges to actually exercise their judgement.

[Shaggy Hiker]

That one is falling away, bit by bit. Folks on both sides of the aisle have realized that there were some significant unintended consequences.

As for opening up opportunity, that's a tough one. Connections are probably the greatest opportunity for most people, and there's no equalizing that. Improving education is easier, and helps to some extent, but that gets you up to a point, not to the real heights.

[2kaud]

A police officer felt so immune that he murdered a man, in broad daylight, in front of a crowd of people, knowing that he was being filmed

and was initially only fired - which says volumes....... Then he was charged with third-degree murder ("without intent to effect the death of any person, causing the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life") and second-degree manslaughter ("a death that occurs without intent to cause serious physical injury, but where reckless conduct by the defendant resulted in death"). Following all the protests he is now also charged with second-degree murder ("Any intentional murder with malice aforethought, but is not premeditated or planned in advance").

[si_the_geek]

I had a period of rapidly changing emotions while watching the start of the news earlier... initially it looked like a crowd violently attacking people (really horrible), then it turned out to be an attack on public property (not good, but much better than people), then it turned out to be in my city (eek!), and finally it turns out that the attack was on a statue of a slave trader (understandable, as the good things he did with his money don't excuse where the money came from).

I haven't fully processed it yet, but the general idea of taking the statue down was good... it's just the details aren't great, eg: it got rolled down the street and thrown into the harbour, which is going to cost public money to fix. It is worth mentioning that months ago it was officially being planned to take the statue down, and it was delayed due to working out what to do with the statue next.


I also briefly saw on TV that in the UK there are plans (not sure by who) to get schools to teach "the history of racism", which certainly has the potential to be good. The virus lockdown is messing with my head a bit, but I can see potential for that teaching to be a double-edged sword to some degree, as it will give some people more ammunition for their attacks - hopefully the gain in knowledge for everyone else will offset it.

[FunkyDexter]

People have been campaigning to get the Colston statue removed for years. They couldn't even get the wording on the plaque, which describes him as "virtuous", changed. Personally I wasn't aware that it had been planned to take it down but, given how long and un-fruitful that campaign has been, I'm not convinced it would have actually happened.

As with the looting, I feel comfortable condemning the vandalism, but I think it moves the focus to the wrong place. That a statue celebrating a man who sold something like 100,000 people into slavery has stood in what is generally a pretty liberal and progressive city (not dissing Bristol, I like this city) for so long is a far more pertinent point. That he still has a tower block emblazoned with his name in the city centre, several streets named after him, schools named after him, pubs named after him, a stained glass window in the cathedral, a cake named after him and even a day named after him are all far more worthy of note in my opinion. I'm personally not a fan of expunging history and I think more can be done by contextualising it, but even trying to do that has met with failure because... tradition.

I kept my protesting peaceful. I can understand why others didn't.

it got rolled down the street and thrown into the harbour

I think you might have missed a bit of symbolism there. It was rolled down to Pero's bridge which is named after a slave. And it was thrown into the harbour at a place the slave ships left from. There was a deep point to that.

[wes4dbt]

si,

Don't stress about not knowing what's the correct answer, no body does, though some think they do. I'd say what ever answers they decide on, there will be a degree of a double-edged sword. One answer that the city where the death occurred has decided to Disband The Police Department. Not crazy about that solution but since they didn't ask my opinion not going to go crazy worrying. lol

[FunkyDexter]

One answer that the city where the death occurred has decided to Disband The Police Department.

That seems crazy. I mean they clearly need root and branch reform but you can't just disband the police force and think everything'll be OK. Have I misunderstood this?

[NeedSomeAnswers]

That seems crazy. I mean they clearly need root and branch reform but you can't just disband the police force and think everything'll be OK. Have I misunderstood this?

They are not going to get rid of the police, when you disband a Police department you can wipe the policy slate clean and start again, giving the department a new name and a new set of polices.

Sometime its easier to tear all the rules down and start again than try and unpick what you have, especially when your trying for structural change.

[NeedSomeAnswers]

To add the conservation as to what can be enacted to make real changes,

Change Police polices is a start, stop allowing officers that are bad actors from being protected by unions or their departments, make it a requirement that officers report discriminatory behaviour by there colleagues, and back this up by proper sanctions including loss of job if officers dont comply.

Training,we need to stop being at a point where "black male" automatically equals "danger" in the eyes of many officers, and stop the defence of i was frightened as the man was big and black as an excuse for a shoot first action.

Demilitarise the police, Police are not the army they dont need army gear and vehicles.

Defund the police, which doesn't mean remove all there funding, but in many states the spend on police seems unnecessarily high, taking 10% and spending that on projects which increase access to and spending on education and also youth services to get kids off the streets. (you may want to target this as i am sure that not every police department budget is equal)


In the UK specifically, we need to make Police accountable for deaths in custody, to many black men in recent years have died in custody we have not had a single conviction even when the evidence has shown that the individual has died due to police actions.

also we need to start spending on youth clubs and services again, they got cut to ribbons during austerity and if anything is to blame for the increase in knife crime in London its the loss of those youth service which helped kids off the streets and into doing things that are constructive.

[Shaggy Hiker]

I think you might have missed a bit of symbolism there. It was rolled down to Pero's bridge which is named after a slave. And it was thrown into the harbour at a place the slave ships left from. There was a deep point to that.

Was it thrown into the deep point? If so, then leave it be. I suppose if it is copper, then it might not be so good, but otherwise, a statue would likely make pretty good artificial habitat....complete with some nutrient enrichment contributed by pigeons over the years.

[dilettante]

It's been done before. Camden, NJ for one. That way you can bust the public employee union then hire the same people back at reduced pay and benefits with no bargaining rights.

[FunkyDexter]

Yeah, I'm hearing a lot about the police union being a problem. That's weird for me because, as a bit of a lefty, I tend to think of the protections unions give as a good thing. But I guess there are some things that are inappropriate to protect.

[Shaggy Hiker]

There's always a balance to be struck. Police unions and teachers unions do a lot of good things, but they protect EVERY member, justified or not. Getting rid of them would exchange one form of abuse for another....perhaps. Idaho is a Right-To-Work state, which means that unions are powerless. That kind of thing tilts the playing field towards employers. I'm not sure that I have any feel for that in Idaho. Our median salary is low, but so is our cost of living, so we may be doing pretty well as a ratio of income to expenses. On the other hand, I have the feeling that Idaho is unusually splotchy when it comes to poverty. If you have no leverage, but you get treated pretty well, is that still an issue?

[wes4dbt]

There's always a balance to be struck. Police unions and teachers unions do a lot of good things, but they protect EVERY member, justified or not. Getting rid of them would exchange one form of abuse for another....perhaps. Idaho is a Right-To-Work state, which means that unions are powerless. That kind of thing tilts the playing field towards employers. I'm not sure that I have any feel for that in Idaho. Our median salary is low, but so is our cost of living, so we may be doing pretty well as a ratio of income to expenses. On the other hand, I have the feeling that Idaho is unusually splotchy when it comes to poverty. If you have no leverage, but you get treated pretty well, is that still an issue?

I've been lucky enough to have worked in both situations and was treated good in both places. But also worked some non union that were crap jobs. If your counting on all employers to do the right thing, you will be disappointed. If you expect any large amount of people to all do the right thing, you will be disappointed. Not police, protester, churches, teachers, doctors ....... EXCEPT Programmers, we are loyal, honest, kind, the kind of people that you want to invite to Sunday dinner.

[si_the_geek]

I think you might have missed a bit of symbolism there. It was rolled down to Pero's bridge which is named after a slave. And it was thrown into the harbour at a place the slave ships left from. There was a deep point to that.

I had missed that (yesterday the news was rather brief), with that context it is understandable that people wanted to do it.

Given a bit of time I suspect (based on the talking heads on TV) that it will be put into a museum with appropriate context... the banners left at the previous location of the statue have been collected and stored, so that they can show the context of the removal.

si,

Don't stress about not knowing what's the correct answer, no body does, though some think they do. I'd say what ever answers they decide on, there will be a degree of a double-edged sword.

Oh yes, nobody will come up with a perfect answer, because there are far too many variables (including whatever is going on inside millions of peoples minds).

Having seen some more news today it seems that black history isn't being taught well enough in schools (in Bristol at least), despite what I had heard a couple of years ago. That is certainly something that should be improved upon, and even tho my brain still isn't firing on all cylinders I am now feeling that slavery etc would be a good thing to be teaching.

also we need to start spending on youth clubs and services again, they got cut to ribbons during austerity and if anything is to blame for the increase in knife crime in London its the loss of those youth service which helped kids off the streets and into doing things that are constructive.

That is a good call, as it helps people (of nearly any background, but especially those of poorer backgrounds) to build themselves up in at least some ways, which helps create equality.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Nobody invites me to ANYTHING involving food.

Actually, that's not true. I'm good at cleaning up the leftovers.

[dilettante]

Speaking of food, in a way...

How dumb are the leaders of big cities? I mean why not a response early on that trucked in bags of snacks and bottled water to dole out? Set up a small stage with PA gear, and a row of seats for city officials as an audience? Posters saying "We're Here to Hear You" and an invitation for leaders among the protesters to take the mic and air their grievances? Plenty of space carved out for the press and located where the crowds could easily mill by.

I'm not sure whether I'm simply being naive, and I'm not sure it wouldn't just be seen as condescending, but surely it would have been a more sane response than what transpired. Let it be disruptive and have a price tag to it, it would probably still have cost a lot less than what occurred.

It just seems odd this sort of thing wasn't at least attempted here and there. Or did I miss all of the news stories covering it?

[FunkyDexter]

it seems that black history isn't being taught well enough in schools

This is true but it goes much deeper than schools. Still harping on Colston, you can celebrate his day, eat his cake, drink in his pubs, eat in his restaurants, walk his roads, work in his office tower block, view the window in the cathedral and even attend one of his schools and you won't encounter the word "slave" once. What we teach is not history, it's propaganda.

Think of it like this: Si, you've lived in Bristol for years (not sure how long but you predate me by a long time). Given the number of memorials to him, how many times do you reckon you've seen his name or his image? It's got to be hundreds if not thousands. And yet you weren't even aware that he was a slaver. You probably never even registered his existence. And I'm fairly sure you're representative of at least 90% of Bristolians.

That's not because you're some closet racist or you've had your eyes closed or just didn't care, it's because that information has been systematically hidden from you. Unless you choose to go looking into who Colston was (and why would you? - you don't know there was anything particularly interesting to look into) you would never find out about that. Honestly, the only reason I knew about him was because I did a guided tour when I first moved here and the guide mentioned it.

I suspect (based on the talking heads on TV) that it will be put into a museum with appropriate context

I like that idea but I personally reckon we should leave it where it is and contextualise it there. I can't think of a more poignant display than having a statue of slaver drowned beneath a bridge dedicated to a slave.

How dumb are the leaders of big cities?

I agree with everything you said there. I suspect the reason they didn't is because they really aren't "here to hear you".

Nobody invites me to ANYTHING involving food

I tell you what, when this lockdown lifts I'll hold a VBF BBQ and you will all be very welcome. Might be a long trip though.

[NeedSomeAnswers]

Having seen some more news today it seems that black history isn't being taught well enough in schools (in Bristol at least)

Black history is barley taught in UK schools at all. I had a quick look at the current curriculum just to check and there is a non-statutory teaching option of - "Britain’s transatlantic slave trade: its effects and its eventual abolition"

and that it for black history, and as its non-statutory they dont have to teach it, it on a list with 8 other options

So teaching about slavery is on option but there is literally nothing else on there to do with black history, nothing about Windrush for example which you would have thought considering it impact on British society would be a great topic.

[si_the_geek]

Think of it like this: Si, you've lived in Bristol for years (not sure how long but you predate me by a long time). Given the number of memorials to him, how many times do you reckon you've seen his name or his image? It's got to be hundreds if not thousands.

The name would be thousands as it's easy to manage five within a minute thru the centre, but his image would probably be less than 10 (plus hundreds of times ignoring the statue from a distance).

And yet you weren't even aware that he was a slaver. You probably never even registered his existence. And I'm fairly sure you're representative of at least 90% of Bristolians.

I was aware he was a slaver, due to friends telling me - I just didn't recognise the statue with people jumping on it at the start of the news (and probably couldn't have recognised it anyway, I think I only ever looked at it properly once and that would be over 10 years ago!).

You are right tho that the information has been systematically hidden, it's only the modern bits that have anything about it. If I remember rightly there is an info board by the entrance to the bridge, close to the splash point - so you can read it while someone looks over your shoulder to try to spot the statue.

Black history is barley taught in UK schools at all. ...

So teaching about slavery is on option but there is literally nothing else on there to do with black history, nothing about Windrush for example which you would have thought considering it impact on British society would be a great topic.

Given the wide variety of things that are worth knowing about (Windrush plus many more mentioned on TV in the last day or so), it is definitely stuff that should be taught - even if each topic is relatively briefly covered.

I'm not really into history myself, but the things mentioned on TV sound like they would appeal to those who are.