Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 121

Thread: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

  1. #1

    Thread Starter
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    4,752

    Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    Strange time here in the US. I was raised in the sixties so I got no problem with protests. Riots and looting just leave me feeling sad. It destroys what good the protests may achieve. I have to admit I don't remember ever seeing this wide spread protesting. Made me worry today when I saw force, tear gas and rubber bullets used on the peaceful protesters in front of the White House today, before the curfew. So Trump could walk across the street to the church. There might be a backlash they weren't expecting from that, just feeds the fire. Need to concentrate on the criminals.

    My guess is this just like what happens after a mass shooting, all kinds of outrage, all kinds of people committed to change, then six weeks later things gate back to normal and nothing has changed.

  2. #2
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    22,734

    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    I'm sure people with axes to grind on all sides will try to take advantage. Legit protest seems to quickly get lost and be forgotten.

  3. #3
    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    107,473

    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    I'm sure that there are some perennial trouble-makers who are hijacking the current protests to some degree and some opportunists using the opportunity to get a free TV but I think that some of the violence is the result of legitimate protesters who are just very angry. They may or may not have become violent if not for some instigators but that doesn't mean that some of the violence isn't the result of justified anger. That groups like Black Lives Matter have been so derided in some circles and yet we still see incidents like this occurring makes me angry enough as it is, never mind if I was one of those at genuine risk of being the victim.

    I'm no fan of the Chinese government but they do have a point that there was all sorts of official and unofficial support coming out of America for violent protests in Hong Kong, but many in America and around the world will just assume that that's OK because China are the bad guys while America are the good guys and so violent protest against America is just wrong by default.

    It's a shame that some will undoubtedly focus on the violence as a means to deflect from the genuine issues being protested but we have countless examples throughout history where, as regrettable as it was that it came to violence, real change occurred as a result. When that happens, many don't like it at the time but they grow old and their opinions become less important and a new generation come through who have grown up with the new normal. Let's hope some good can actually come of this but I don't see a lot happening quickly. Racism seems to have a real renaissance in the US recently. Even if Donald Trump is not an overt racist (that's a debate for another time) there's no doubt that many who are feel emboldened by his rhetoric. In that regard at least, he is undoubtedly dividing the country but he is never going to admit to being wrong about anything, so he is unlikely to change at all.

  4. #4
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    2,083

    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    Deleted ...
    Last edited by dreammanor; Jun 2nd, 2020 at 12:40 AM.

  5. #5

    Thread Starter
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    4,752

    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    jmc,

    Never really see you get involved much in these types of conversations. But I found your thoughts relevant and well thought out. I enjoyed reading it and to hope to hear more in the future. I don't know what racism is like in your country but you seem to be against it and I'm always glad to here that.

  6. #6
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    7,710

    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    I'm comfortable condemning the looting, regardless of the anger behind it. Two wrongs not making a right is a fundamental I was taught before I was five.

    BUT, that this situation has ended in violent riots is hardly surprising and the rioters are not the cause, they're the symptom.

    Black People are disproportionately killed by police in both the US and UK.
    Attempts at peaceful protest are condemned as unpatriotic (Kaepernick) and disregarded
    Trump has been dog whistling to the far right since he started campaigning
    Trump has actively encourage violent behaviour by the police ("you can take the hand away")
    A police officer kills yet another unarmed black man, kneeling on his neck for over 3 minutes after he stopped responding
    Trump dog whistles yet again ("when the looting starts the shooting starts")

    Given that set of circumstances, what do you expect to happen? And if your first thought is "looting's bad" then you're looking at the wrong thing. You're examining an event at least half a dozen steps further down the chain of cause and effect than the one you should be looking at.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Jun 4th, 2020 at 01:54 AM.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  7. #7
    Superbly Moderated NeedSomeAnswers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Manchester uk
    Posts
    2,652

    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    Its just so damn sad that the same problems with racism have been left unfixed and black people are still being murdered by police officers.

    Looting is never good but we shouldn't let it distract from the main message of the protests which is the need for institutional change. It needs to stop being normal for police officers to kneel on a black mans neck for 8 minutes, for a black jogger to be shot in the street and the police to not even arrest the men responsible until 2 months later, for black people to feel generally unsafe around a police officer.

    We in the UK sometime look at the US as if this is just your problem, while we are a smaller country and the problem may not be quite so large our police still have a problem with institutional racism.

    Black men are still disproportionately targeted by stop and search , black people are still twice as likely to die in police custody then white people, and we have a number of cases in recent years where a black man has died as a result of police misconduct in police custody and we have not had a single arrest of a police officer.

    Mobile phones if they have done nothing else, they have provided us recorded evidence of these crimes by police, and yes we need justice but even more importantly we need a culture change in police forces and better training and recruiting to stop this pattern of repeated discrimination.
    Please Mark your Thread "Resolved", if the query is solved & Rate those who have helped you



  8. #8
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    7,710

    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    We in the UK sometime look at the US as if this is just your problem
    I'll second that. I think the fact that our police aren't armed makes a big difference to the perception (not meaning to open up the whole gun debate).

    Mark Duggan died in police custody. That's horrible but it doesn't have the same shock value as Alton Sterling being shot by police. That shock value can make the problem appear much worse in the US. But it's hiding the fact that both ended up dead and that's all that really matters in the final analysis.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  9. #9
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    36,469

    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    I don't think there is anything much to add to this. I do wonder if the lockdown didn't amplify the result, but it was certainly coming.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  10. #10

    Thread Starter
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    4,752

    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    I don't think there is anything much to add to this. I do wonder if the lockdown didn't amplify the result, but it was certainly coming.
    Maybe, a lot more people off work, at home.

    I'm comfortable condemning the looting, regardless of the anger behind it.
    Yeah, me too. It seems to be an element of every large protest. The police seem to let that 10% get away with it (for a while) because they don't want to further incite the other 90%. It's a tough situation.

    The result is that the 10% get 90% of the attention and it's negative.

  11. #11
    Super Moderator si_the_geek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Bristol, UK
    Posts
    41,715

    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    A reporter on the BBC heavily implied that the lockdown etc were contributing factors of the riots around him. I can't remember the exact words, but it was something like:
    We have been dealing with a pandemic that has killed over 100 thousand in the US, and it disproportionally affects people of colour.
    Due to the lockdown millions of people in the US have lost their jobs, and it has disproportionally affected people of colour.
    Yet again we are witnessing police brutality, which disproportionally affects people of colour.
    Those things understandably create fear and anger, so when the police etc respond to protests with any degree of "showing their strength" (even if that is in a peaceful way), it raises the anger level - because there is at least a feeling that a group of people are being suppressed.


    Somebody being accused of a small scale criminal offence (in this case roughly equal to stealing a couple of days worth of food from a shop) shouldn't end up having a death sentence. The way the police in general are trained and punished needs to change, as an "accidental" death shouldn't be a possibility when any reasonable options exist.

    People of any kind who choose to suppress and persecute others are displaying weakness... they know the people they are attacking could be a valid "competitor" in some way, so use excuses to attack them before they have a chance. Even if those attacks are much more subtle than physical attacks like in this case, they are still unacceptable.

    Black lives matter
    Female lives matter
    Disabled peoples lives matter
    ...
    Whatever differences people have, ALL lives matter.

    To some degree we all need to make that aspect of reality clear to everyone... preferably long before it gets to the point of violence. It is great to see on TV that a significant percentage of the protesters are white, and proudly holding anti-racism signs. Change is happening, but it should be happening at a very dramatically faster pace.
    Last edited by si_the_geek; Jun 2nd, 2020 at 06:03 PM.

  12. #12
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    36,469

    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    So many of the problems that humanity has arises from our intense tribalism. It manifests in different ways: My flag is better than your flag, my skin color is better than your skin color, my perception of God is is better than your perception of God, my political party is better than your political party and my uniform is better than your uniform.

    This comes in many different varieties, but it's all shades of the same thing: People defining who is in the group and who is not in the group, then supporting the in group while attacking the out group.

    The danger comes when a person only identifies themselves along one line. If they see themselves as protesters AND Americans, or police AND Americans, then the fighting isn't as intense, since the sides see themselves as having common ground. However, as the US retreats to the poles, a person can increasingly see themselves in multiple roles while still having no common ground with another person. It is increasingly becoming the case that you can be a White, Republican, Evangelical, and you will exclude the same group that you would exclude if you identified with only one or two of those categories.

    I remember reading an Israeli study that suggested that the core similarity between terrorists was not ethnicity, money, education, or anything like that. It was simply that they saw themselves as being a member of only one group and not of multiple groups. While most people are members of a variety of tribes, not all of them sharing the same ideals, people who begin to see themselves as members of only one tribe become dangerous.

    That tribalism can get into some pretty strange arenas. There's an element of that when it comes to programming languages. People can disagree about that, but most people don't care. There have been a few who cared so intensely that they became decidedly aggressive towards any who didn't agree. That used to also happen between Apple and PC (there was an ancient thread on here that got a bit heated about something like that...though it may have been Intel vs AMD, which is even sillier).

    Tribalism: It defines us.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  13. #13
    Fanatic Member 2kaud's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    England
    Posts
    726

    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    Unfortunately, I have to agree with Shaggy's insightful analysis re tribalism. It even extends to programming languages!
    All advice is offered in good faith only. You are ultimately responsible for the effects of your programs and the integrity of the machines they run on. Anything I post, code snippets, advice, etc is licensed as Public Domain https://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/

    C++20 Compiler: Microsoft VS2019 (16.11.3)

  14. #14
    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    107,473

    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    Quote Originally Posted by 2kaud View Post
    It even extends to programming languages!
    It's true. I burned a VB6 installation disk the other day.

  15. #15

    Thread Starter
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    4,752

    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    It's true. I burned a VB6 installation disk the other day.
    lol, Was it a floppy disk???

    The tribal theory makes sense but to me it doesn't explain enough. Why do some people only identify with one group and others identify with many. I think it's because of baser instincts that we're born with and environment, why are some people aggressive and some passive? I'm a big believer in genetics. Some personality traits your just born with. I've always been good with math/logic but not because of something I consciously did. I also think the Tribal group you choose(sometimes it's thrust upon you) to identify with can have a major influence on your personality. If your born and raised by racists, then you don't see it as racism.

    Well, 100 or 200 years from now maybe this problem will solve itself , by then almost everyone will be brown. Though there is a good chance we'll still be judging people on what shade of brown they are or what kind of flying car they drive.

  16. #16
    Super Moderator RobDog888's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    LA, Calif. Raiders #1 AKA:Gangsta Yoda™
    Posts
    60,709

    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    In my city, Sunday there was a protest and it got a bit out of hand. Was scheduled at 5pm and grew much larger than the city and police anticipated. Lasted for 8 hours! They brought in the armored swat vehicles and officers luckily no injuries. Only a couple of stores got broken into as many of the stores had boarded up earlier in the day. This was only a couple of blocks from my place so I had a good view.

    Name:  Screenshot_20200531-145947~2-1.jpg
Views: 1577
Size:  48.8 KB

    Name:  Screenshot_20200531-145931~2-1.jpg
Views: 1551
Size:  35.6 KB

    Name:  Screenshot_20200531-145939~2-1.jpg
Views: 1551
Size:  46.7 KB

    Then yesterday there was another and it went off peacefully and without incident. This is how protesting should be as it delivers the statement clear without distraction of violence and harm.

    Down at our local shopping center several stores are boarded up. Really blows me away that people will destroy the stores in their community just for a free tv. Sure there's organized instigators from out of town or state but are there that many outsiders that outnumber the insiders?

    We are just coming out of the covid lockdown which has wreaked havoc on small businesses financially and now they are getting destroyed!
    VB/Office Guru™ (AKA: Gangsta Yoda®)
    I dont answer coding questions via PM. Please post a thread in the appropriate forum.

    Microsoft MVP 2006-2011
    Office Development FAQ (C#, VB.NET, VB 6, VBA)
    Senior Jedi Software Engineer MCP (VB 6 & .NET), BSEE, CET
    If a post has helped you then Please Rate it!
    Reps & Rating PostsVS.NET on Vista Multiple .NET Framework Versions Office Primary Interop AssembliesVB/Office Guru™ Word SpellChecker™.NETVB/Office Guru™ Word SpellChecker™ VB6VB.NET Attributes Ex.Outlook Global Address ListAPI Viewer utility.NET API Viewer Utility
    System: Intel i7 6850K, Geforce GTX1060, Samsung M.2 1 TB & SATA 500 GB, 32 GBs DDR4 3300 Quad Channel RAM, 2 Viewsonic 24" LCDs, Windows 10, Office 2016, VS 2019, VB6 SP6

  17. #17
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    36,469

    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    I've always assumed that looters aren't quite protesters, they're opportunists. Perhaps some started out protesting, but then when things got smashed, perhaps they figure, "I'm not getting this any other way..."

    I'm not saying that's moral. I don't think there's much question about that (except perhaps in the minds of some radical anarchists), but I'd like to know the degree to which the pool of looters overlaps the pool of protesters. I've never seen anything at all about that.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  18. #18

    Thread Starter
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    4,752

    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    Rob,

    Been noticing that LA's new virus cases have been jumping. Hope that's due to more testing. But with 1,000+ a day is has to be worrying. Hope the protests don't add to that problem.

    I find it interesting when people seem to try and minimalize the virus by saying "we're" testing more. That's true but 20,000 new cases a day is still 20,000 new cases a day. Maybe it was a good thing we weren't testing more a month ago, the numbers might have scared the crap out of everyone.

  19. #19
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    7,710

    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    You're still all focussed on the wrong thing. This is not about peaceful protesters vs looters. This is about the racism and authoritarianism in our societies running at levels where police feel they have the right kill the people they are supposed to serve. That is the cause, everything else is an effect.


    Whatever differences people have, ALL lives matter.
    I agree with the basic statement but the problem with the repetition of this statement is that it moves the focus from a problem that exists to one that doesn't. All lives should matter, but, demonstrably in our society, black lives actually don't.

    When people say "black lives matter" the implication is not that white lives don't. The implication is that black lives are not afforded the same level of importance to the point where black men can be murdered, often with impunity, by our authorities. That is the problem we should be focussed on. To declare that all lives matter is merely a statement of the obvious.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Jun 4th, 2020 at 04:21 AM.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  20. #20
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    22,734

    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    You're still all focussed on the wrong thing. This is not about peaceful protesters vs looters.
    Really? Isn't it?

    Few people criticize the right to peaceful protest. It is only when things turn ugly that they start asking questions.

    There will always be some on both sides of an issue who choose to follow a path of violence to raise visibility: protesters and society's peace enforcers. How the media handles this also plays into it. Put enough fuel and oxidizer in proximity and casually tossing lit matches is a recipe for disaster.

    It's a hard problem. If you add powerful forces benefiting from societal division to the mix it gets that much harder.

  21. #21
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    22,734

    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!


  22. #22
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    36,469

    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    I'm not criticizing things turning ugly, either. If all you ever have is peaceful protests with nothing else, then they can be ignored. It's kind of like going on a retreat. You get together with a bunch of like-minded individuals, do your own thing, and everybody else ignores you and whatever message you might have.

    The QUESTION I have is about the looting. I'm curious about what is behind it. I hear various theories, but has it been studied, or are all those theories just guesses?
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  23. #23
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    22,734

    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    I'd have to guess.. guesses.

    If there were any clear facts we'd probably hear about them. Either way they went, there are vested interests in trumpeting them.

  24. #24
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    7,710

    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    I'm curious about what is behind it.
    The murder of an unarmed black man by a police officer backed by a history of these cases rarely resulting in charges and almost never resulting in conviction.

    That's the cause. Everything else is an effect.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  25. #25

    Thread Starter
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    4,752

    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    You're still all focussed on the wrong thing. This is not about peaceful protesters vs looters. This is about the racism and authoritarianism in our societies running at levels where police feel they have the right kill the people they are supposed to serve. That is the cause, everything else is an effect.
    I don't think the posts have been focused on protesters vs looters. Think it's been more protesters and looters. I agree with what the protests are about and that includes the rioting (property damage, fires) but that's not what looting is about. As SH said, it's a crime of opportunity. A separate issue. And an issue that needs attention.

  26. #26
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    7,710

    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    A separate issue.
    Nope.

    it's a crime of opportunity.
    It doesn't matter. It wouldn't be happening if not for the death of George Floyd and the multiple cases that have preceded it. By focusing on the looting you're distracting from that. If you want to solve the problem of looting, solve the problem of Police Officers feeling so enabled that they are willing to kill a man, in broad daylight, while being filmed. That is the cause of the looting.

    I said right at the start that I'm comfortable condemning the looting. I also said that you're focussed on the wrong thing. I see plenty of people in this thread willing to address looting. I see a woeful lack of people willing to address murder.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Jun 4th, 2020 at 01:52 PM.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  27. #27
    Super Moderator si_the_geek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Bristol, UK
    Posts
    41,715

    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    I agree with the basic statement but the problem with the repetition of this statement is that it moves the focus from a problem that exists to one that doesn't. All lives should matter, but, demonstrably in our society, black lives actually don't.

    When people say "black lives matter" the implication is not that white lives don't. The implication is that black lives are not afforded the same level of importance to the point where black men can be murdered, often with impunity, by our authorities. That is the problem we should be focussed on. To declare that all lives matter is merely a statement of the obvious.
    My wording wasn't great - I agree with what you said, what I meant (but didn't make clear enough) was black people aren't the only group who are subjected to abuse that is life changing and can be fatal.

    Even tho I live in an area with lots of black people close to the city centre (and gets lots of bigots wandering past, who have no shame in racism), and sometimes socialise in areas with smaller amounts of black people (so the bigots feel more free to attack), I have witnessed far more attacks on disabled people - not just people shouting abuse at them (twice I've been close enough to help stop it, both for blind people), but also at least 10 times a disabled person being deliberately knocked into the street in front of oncoming traffic, as well as things that are even worse.

    There are various minority groups who are subjected to bigoted abuse as well as various injustices within the legal system (eg:
    an estimated 36% of prisoners in the UK are disabled [about 10% in the general population], and are subjected to various forms of abuse there, and life threatening lack of support).

    My point was that we should be aiming to protect all of the people who are targets of severe bigotry. To some degree that will be helped by aiming to help black people (eg: making law enforcement safer and more equal), but in other ways it will make things worse (eg: limited budgets focus on one group at the expense of others. Also bigots will look for new targets - which is something I've witnessed in situations where people helped reduce racism).

    The current protests are in a good direction, they just aren't as complete as I'd like.
    Last edited by si_the_geek; Jun 4th, 2020 at 02:04 PM.

  28. #28
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    7,710

    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    My point was that we should be aiming to protect all of the people who are targets of severe bigotry.
    I 100% agree, particularly about the disabled.

    But there's a problem with the phrase "All Lives Matter" because it co-opts a phrase that was coined specifically to address the issue of violence against black people, particularly terminal violence by people in authority, and, in doing so, takes heat out of that cause while adding very little to any other. So any issue I have isn't with your position but only with that choice of phrase.

    I think that can come across as an accusation that you were attempting to weaponize it but I just want to make clear that, if it is coming across that way, it's not intended. I feel like I know you much better than that and hold you in high regard. However, I do feel it and similar phrases are worth challenging because they come with a baggage which, if it's not being weaponised, is at least being overlooked.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  29. #29
    Super Moderator si_the_geek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Bristol, UK
    Posts
    41,715

    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    Oh yes, my phrasing (even with the prefix) was certainly not ideal - unfortunately I haven't yet thought of a better way to put it succinctly, hence my desire to clarify when I re-read my earlier post.

  30. #30
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    7,710

    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    <shrug>I appreciate I'm coming across as pretty bolshy myself but I do think this is an issue that's particularly important.

    It makes me uncomfortable that we got a thread that was set up to address a week of rioting and looting before we got one to address decades (centuries if you want to include the whole mess of history but I feel this is different to that) of institutionalised murder. I think that's a pretty tragic indictment, if not of the members of this forum, at least of the state of our societies at large. It speaks volumes about just how ingrained our sense of privilege is that we view the former as more worthy or our concern than the latter. I'm not saying our members consciously believe that, but unconsciously? Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. And it's the fact that it's unconscious that's making me so strident because I don't believe anything less will breach that unconsciousness.


    (With regard to anyone who consciously believes the former is more important, there simply wouldn't be any point in engaging)
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  31. #31

    Thread Starter
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    4,752

    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    It doesn't matter. It wouldn't be happening if not for the death of George Floyd and the multiple cases that have preceded it.
    Yes it would. Seen it happen when places have been evacuated because of a impending natural disaster, seen it when blackouts have occurred. It would happen no matter what the reason is for these mass protest. It happens when there is an opportunity. Anyway, I'm going to stop there. We have differing opinions and I doubt they're going to change.
    Last edited by wes4dbt; Jun 4th, 2020 at 04:19 PM.

  32. #32
    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    107,473

    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    Seen it happen when places have been evacuated because of a impending natural disaster, seen it when blackouts have occurred. It would happen no matter what the reason is for these mass protest. It happens when there is an opportunity.
    You're kinda making FD's point for him. Currently, there is no impending natural disaster or other reason for a mass protest so, without the death of George Floyd, we would not be seeing this current looting. No one thinks looting isn't a bad thing but, by focusing on that now, rather than the cause of the opportunity to do it, we reduce the likelihood of meaningful change being implemented and thus increase the likelihood of further opportunities to do it again in the future. Those who don't want that change will try to shift focus to the looting and indirectly argue that the primary issue cannot be addressed until the secondary issue has been put to bed. It's classic deflection and many are falling for it.

  33. #33

    Thread Starter
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    4,752

    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    You're kinda making FD's point for him. Currently, there is no impending natural disaster or other reason for a mass protest so, without the death of George Floyd, we would not be seeing this current looting. No one thinks looting isn't a bad thing but, by focusing on that now, rather than the cause of the opportunity to do it, we reduce the likelihood of meaningful change being implemented and thus increase the likelihood of further opportunities to do it again in the future. Those who don't want that change will try to shift focus to the looting and indirectly argue that the primary issue cannot be addressed until the secondary issue has been put to bed. It's classic deflection and many are falling for it.
    This all sounds like apples and oranges to me. My point was looting is a crime of opportunity, they are not looting because they are outraged over the death.

    Death->Protest and chaos (opportunity)->looting

    If your opinion is they are looting because they are outraged over the death, I just don't see any evidence of that.

    It was never my intention to shift the focus, my discussion was how it distracts from the point of the protests. It seems there is a belief that by talking about the protests and the looting that am ignorant to the tragedy of racism and social injustice. I can assure you that's not true. I'm was disabled at 23 and was immediately treated different, in my case people are nicer to me. But it's still a constant reminder that people view you as different, not the same as them. Basically your a minority.

    I said in my last post "I was going to stop there", well I lied.

  34. #34
    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    107,473

    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    I think that this video by Rebecca Watson has some relevance to this discussion, if you care 12.5 minutes watching:

    Study Says "Extreme" Protest Isn't Popular (But It Can Still Be Effective)

  35. #35

    Thread Starter
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    4,752

    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    I think that this video by Rebecca Watson has some relevance to this discussion, if you care 12.5 minutes watching:

    Study Says "Extreme" Protest Isn't Popular (But It Can Still Be Effective)
    Can't right now but will watch it later. Spent to much time on my last brilliant response. lol

  36. #36
    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    107,473

    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    My point was looting is a crime of opportunity
    Of course it is, so let's minimise the opportunity. Fewer reasons to protest means fewer protests, which means fewer opportunities for looting.
    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    my discussion was how it distracts from the point of the protests.
    I agree. Any energy spent discussing looting is energy spent not addressing the root cause of the protests that provided the opportunity for the looting. Who does that benefit?
    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    It seems there is a belief that by talking about the protests and the looting that am ignorant to the tragedy of racism and social injustice.
    I don't think that that's the case. It's just that everyone already knows that looting is wrong, including the looters. Apparently not everyone knows that it's wrong to kneel on a persons neck for several minutes until they pass out and die. Some of us think that that's what we should be spending our energy on. Of course, that's easier to do the further you are removed from the looting. I may well feel slightly different if the looting was happening in Sydney.

  37. #37

    Thread Starter
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    4,752

    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    Fair enough

    btw - watched the video, thought she was attractive.

  38. #38
    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    107,473

    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    watched the video, thought she was attractive.
    Was that intended to be a joke? Perhaps you know the history and it was intended to be in poor taste. If you don't know the history:

    https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Elevatorgate

    For the record, I'm not offended by the comment and I doubt that Watson would be either but, given that I posted the link on a serious, unrelated subject and that's the one observation you made, it's just one more small example of the wider problems that she herself tackles when wearing her feminist hat.

  39. #39
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    7,710

    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    You're kinda making FD's point for him. Currently, there is no impending natural disaster or other reason for a mass protest so, without the death of George Floyd, we would not be seeing this current looting. No one thinks looting isn't a bad thing but, by focusing on that now, rather than the cause of the opportunity to do it, we reduce the likelihood of meaningful change being implemented and thus increase the likelihood of further opportunities to do it again in the future. Those who don't want that change will try to shift focus to the looting and indirectly argue that the primary issue cannot be addressed until the secondary issue has been put to bed. It's classic deflection and many are falling for it.
    Thank you. That's exactly what I'm trying to say and put much more succinctly than I was managing.

    they are not looting because they are outraged over the death.
    I haven't said that. I haven't spoke to the motivation of the looters at all. I have said that the murder is the cause of this situation and therefore the cause of the looting. I have also averred to the fact that the magnitude of the wrong perpetrated some members of the police force and the entire institution that repeatedly enables them far outstrips the wrong being perpetrated by looters.

    And you still don't want to talk about that.

    It seems there is a belief that by talking about the protests and the looting that am ignorant to the tragedy of racism and social injustice.
    I'm not saying you're ignorant of it. I am saying you're ignoring it.

    The issue is not that you want to condemn looting. The issue is that it is all you're condemning.

    (I feel like I'm singling you out here and I apologise for that. My criticism is not aimed at you specifically but at anyone who's priorities appear wrong. You're just the person who's engaging so you're the person my comments end up being directed to. Actually, I take my hat off to you being the person who's chosen to engage )
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Jun 5th, 2020 at 01:39 AM.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  40. #40

    Thread Starter
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    4,752

    Re: Protester Rioters And Looters Oh My!

    Also fair enough,

    BUT,

    I'm not saying you're ignorant of it. I am saying you're ignoring it.
    Your wrong about this. It just wasn't the topic of this thread. I'm fully aware of and give thought to both problems. I start most of these chit chat threads looking for peoples opinions on a subject, I enjoy that. If you want to ask, why didn't you start a thread on why the death happened or racism first, I'd say probably because I'm pretty locked into my views on that. If you want to start a thread on those issues I'm sure I couldn't resist eventually chiming in.

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  



Click Here to Expand Forum to Full Width