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Thread: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

  1. #3521
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    Re: [RESOLVED] Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Well I'm not the one who keeps raising insane politically-motivated points. I just push back on the crazies, stuffing them back into the sewers.

  2. #3522
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    Re: [RESOLVED] Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Er, no. Trump's vaccine push (Operation Warp Speed) had not produced a tested product ready to be administered until the Biden Coup occurred. The embarrassingly weak acceptance levels however definitely occurred on Biden's watch.
    There is a whole lot more needed to fight a pandemic than just a "vaccine push". Also, why do you try and paint the "embarrassingly weak acceptance levels" as Biden's fault. This whole fight against acknowledging the seriousness of this pandemic and working together to control it, started long before the Biden administration. "Biden Coup", lol

  3. #3523
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    Re: [RESOLVED] Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Well I'm not the one who keeps raising insane politically-motivated points. I just push back on the crazies, stuffing them back into the sewers.
    Yeah, right. Pulling them back, is more accurate.

    Biden coup...heh.

    It's still chapping your butt that he lost, because anything negative of Trump is sure to get the ol' passive-aggressive attack response. You don't go after criticism of anybody else, but say one thing about Trump and out comes the TDS response. I haven't gone back to check the record precisely, but I don't recall you ever objecting to criticism of any other person, or letting any criticism of Trump not get labeled as TDS.

    And then you go on with the Biden coup thing. That one's a hoot. That recount in AZ, with a totally partisan team doing all kinds of sloppiness, and they widened the margin for Biden....but it's STILL a coup. Yeah...heh, that's a coup. When your own partisans can't spin a single recount in your direction, it's kind of like that quote about one of Boris Johnson's cabinet (I forget who, but I think it was some fishy guy), "he managed to lose a rigged election".
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  4. #3524
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    Re: [RESOLVED] Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Er, no. Trump's vaccine push (Operation Warp Speed) had not produced a tested product ready to be administered until the Biden Coup occurred. The embarrassingly weak acceptance levels however definitely occurred on Biden's watch.
    I remember a number of Trump rallies where he said the pandemic would be over right after Nov. 4th because it was a democratic hoax! He was on national broadcasts saying that. Some of his supporters still believe that. Is that who you are holding up as an example of someone that handled the pandemic seriously?
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    Re: [RESOLVED] Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    ...but say one thing about Trump and out comes the TDS response...
    Oh, it doesn't require anyone to criticise Trump. Dil is actually inventing criticisms that aren't even being made. It's... weird, frankly.

    The martyr complex on the American right is truly staggering at the moment.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Oct 26th, 2021 at 08:51 AM.
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    Re: [RESOLVED] Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Right? Right?

    That's a hot one.

  7. #3527
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    Re: [RESOLVED] Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Yeah, I've never thought of Dilettante as being on the right. In the US, politics is kind of a horseshoe which doesn't quite make a full circle. Unfortunately, as you get out towards the ends of the horseshoe, you find a bunch of frilly protrusions like the roots of a tree, and some of those protrusions go on past the protrusions coming from the other side....at which point the whole analogy breaks down, and the simplification of stuffing political positions into either a binary state or even a single, linear, continuum becomes essentially problematic.

    Dil's anti-globalization, pro-labor, positions put him generally to the left. Trump was never a conservative, anyways, so that doesn't matter.
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  8. #3528
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    Re: [RESOLVED] Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    anti-globalization, pro-labor, positions
    We can debate the semantics but I don't think the right is defined by policies and positions any more.

    edit> to expand on that, the qualifier is now belief in a "Biden Coup"
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Oct 26th, 2021 at 11:54 AM.
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    Re: [RESOLVED] Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    I think to a lot of people it's an armband they make for themselves, and anyone who doesn't wear it is the enemy.

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    Re: [RESOLVED] Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Winston Churchill Was a Racist Warmonger Who Tried to Sterilize the Mentally Ill

    The "British Bulldog" is celebrated as a defeater of Nazis and champion of democracy. But he also hated Indian people, loved eugenics, and advocated for poison gas.
    Be careful who you stick up there on a pedestal.

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    Re: [RESOLVED] Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Everybody loves watching Dr. V:


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    Re: [RESOLVED] Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    This is how some of our congressman are behaving. We are in a race for the bottom and I can actually see democracy disintegrating more everyday. I truly feel the America I grew up in is disappearing fast.

    South Carolina congressman Jeff Duncan wore a mask featuring the new conservative meme "Let's Go Brandon" on the House floor, with the slogan adopted by Donald Trump supporters in replacement of the "f**k Joe Biden" chant.
    https://www.newsweek.com/jeff-duncan...-chant-1642534

    "Let's go Brandon" is a euphemism for something not so polite.
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    Re: [RESOLVED] Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Be careful who you stick up there on a pedestal.
    Not sure of the relevance but I've never had a problem acknowledging Churchill's dark side. He was a great leader to the nation when one was needed but he was, indeed, also a racist warmonger. What's your point?

    You can add to the list that, while he was a great political leader, he was a terrible military one and a screaming alcoholic to boot. And if you want to get an idea of his autocratic tendencies you can read my sig. It was witty quip, sure, but it also reveals a darker side.
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  14. #3534
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    Re: [RESOLVED] Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    I think to a lot of people it's an armband they make for themselves, and anyone who doesn't wear it is the enemy.
    Yeah, that's certainly fair.

    I think there are philosophical people on each side. Philosophical conservatives (the George Will types) didn't support Trump, but the Republican party did. For most people, it is just an armband, with no meaning beyond that. For the philosophers on either side, it is more than that, but they lack the numbers and the weight to swing an election.
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  15. #3535
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    Re: [RESOLVED] Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    So According to OECD the prices are going to rise more in all the goods.
    Apparently locking down earth and stopping production just....Ehh damn...just....Mmmmm...I can't say the word... OK, stopping production just forked us over really hard.There.
    Any more bright ideas on lock downs due to the flue?What's the general thoughts about that in US and England? I know our bright idiots here are up to something, I mean they disallowed the student parade from happening and in 2 days it's our national liberty parade. They are raising the cases on purpose so they can cancel the parade but the cases are so low I don't think they will make it. Go little dictator go, think of something.
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  16. #3536
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    Re: [RESOLVED] Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    In the US, I'm not even sure how much it matters. We haven't had anything that could be called a lockdown in something like a year and a half, and for most of the intervening time there was no impact. Now, the news is filled with stories about container ships riding to anchor off ports waiting to unload. Then Biden said that one port would go to round the clock to try to speed things up.

    Now, if we take these things to be the most important factors, then the inflation we are seeing could be due solely to a supply logjam, and the logjam is happening with unloading ships and moving cargo from the ports. I'm sure that's a part of it, but there's another story in the US, as well:

    Car companies responded to the original COVID by canceling orders for parts. Normally, they'd have a steady supply of chips coming in, but they canceled their orders, and now are on the back of the list, because LOTS of people were willing to take their places in the line. That wasn't due to a lockdown, that was due to a mistake. They thought demand would stay flat for a long time, but in the US, demand went through the roof, perhaps because of all the money that was shoveled out to people (which plenty of people felt was enough to cause inflation on its own). The US economy has been rockin' like it's 1959, yet some of the big producers predicted, and planned for, the exact opposite.

    And then there are the rental car companies. You may remember that I couldn't find a rental car to get home back in June. That was because the car companies also expected a protracted lack of demand and sold all their cars. Demand came roaring back...and they couldn't buy a car to rent.

    So, as far as I can tell, the lockdown in the US had nearly no impact on anything. It was brief, it was ineffective, and it has been over for a long time. However, the predictions of doom coming from the corporate boardrooms was 180 degrees opposite of what actually happened: We all went home and bought crap like it was going out of season. The brakes were slammed on the production lines thinking that we'd stop buying, and instead we got buying like never before...and ended up totally out of whack.
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  17. #3537
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    Re: [RESOLVED] Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    If we are calling this a coincidence, I'm afraid it's not, no matter how much salt of side effect you put into it. I can say for myself, lost almost 70% of my income in one day, so I stopped buying so companies got astray cuz almost everyone was doing the same. I wanted to get a Graphic Card and ....Yooohhaa!! I could sell my own for 3 times it's initial value. The world reset and I'm afraid not in the best possible way as we end up with worse economy, higher prices, higher fuel prices, super higher electric bills, vax unvax wars, huge protests all over the world (except US, apparently everything is fine there?) . I usual get my super market products for 18-20 Euros. Today I paid 32 and I was looking at what the heck did I bought wrong? Except I did not. So on top on that we have our idiots warning for lockdown and tell us to vaccinate because...I don't know, there are less and less excuses, now they are saying to vaccinate because, potentially the cases will rise at some point in time.I don't know, they are losing it also I guess.
    So even if that was a huge cancellation scheme in the end we end up with high prices. So as I said and you said, stopping production had that impact. Can you take a guess what companies got a huge profit out of the whole mess?
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  18. #3538
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    Re: [RESOLVED] Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    If we are calling this a coincidence, I'm afraid it's not, no matter how much salt of side effect you put into it. I can say for myself, lost almost 70% of my income in one day, so I stopped buying so companies got astray cuz almost everyone was doing the same. I wanted to get a Graphic Card and ....Yooohhaa!! I could sell my own for 3 times it's initial value. The world reset and I'm afraid not in the best possible way as we end up with worse economy, higher prices, higher fuel prices, super higher electric bills, vax unvax wars, huge protests all over the world (except US, apparently everything is fine there?) . I usual get my super market products for 18-20 Euros. Today I paid 32 and I was looking at what the heck did I bought wrong? Except I did not. So on top on that we have our idiots warning for lockdown and tell us to vaccinate because...I don't know, there are less and less excuses, now they are saying to vaccinate because, potentially the cases will rise at some point in time.I don't know, they are losing it also I guess.
    So even if that was a huge cancellation scheme in the end we end up with high prices. So as I said and you said, stopping production had that impact. Can you take a guess what companies got a huge profit out of the whole mess?
    Yeah, but that's Greece and the EU. The US did something pretty different: We shoveled money to people buy the bale load. I was trying to figure out how much direct money I got, even though I never lost my job or suffered in any way financially. I think I was given somewhere a bit over $3000. For those who got laid off, the feds added a good whack of cash on top of state unemployment. Those who were on the lower end of the pay scale were often making more on unemployment than they did while working. That is a FAR different situation than you faced, and really put the US economy onto far different footing than the EU. Whether that was good or bad, too much or too little, is a matter for debate, but it sure was different.

    Some companies got a huge profit. Those who sold stuff that we wanted, and hadn't shut off their production, got a huge profit. Some went under. Things shifted, there were certainly some winners, as you would expect because there was something of a spending spree in the US. There were also losers, which were mostly those who bet wrong...plus some stores that were marginal to begin with, and couldn't take the initial shock.

    Here's a fun graphic of infections in the US:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeaut...e=morning_brew
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  19. #3539
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    Re: [RESOLVED] Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    There were also losers, which were mostly those who bet wrong...plus some stores that were marginal to begin with, and couldn't take the initial shock.
    Here in Ca. there was a lot of stress put on small businesses like salons, restaurants, bars. Think our lockdown rules were a little stricter (or enforced) here. I feel bad for them but it was a necessary step to save lives.

    As for things like shortages or inflation, all I can say is, Well, Duh!! lol We've been in the mist of a world wide disaster for almost two years. Whether you lockdown or ignored the problem, a two year pandemic is going to have some negative effects on our lives.

  20. #3540
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    Re: [RESOLVED] Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    I would say that it has had some negative effects on my life, but it's been clearly positive for me financially. The lack of driving, less eating out (I could, I just decided to change my habits at the same time), and so on has been a total positive for me financially. The fact that we aren't meeting face to face has caused me some inconvenience, but it won't really impact me until next summer, and things might be quite different by then.

    Right now, it's cold and wet. An excellent time of year, for me, but not good for my kind of camping with the short days and snow in the mountains. Good time to learn bike repairs, though, and a great time to be out walking, since I don't turn into a dripping mass of sweat. I don't do real well in our summer heat, dry though it may be.
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  21. #3541
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    Re: [RESOLVED] Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Well don't get me wrong, I also had 5 months of summer vacations and get paid more than enough to do nothing. I haven't done that since I was a kid, so that was fine to vacate and get paid but that is not normal and we really should not get accustomed staying inside.
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  22. #3542
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    Re: [RESOLVED] Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    You may have a point there. I've been enjoying it, mostly, but it probably isn't good for us to be staying away from each other quite so much. I'm somebody who would go walking for six months, but eventually, you do get lonely. Other people probably suffer more. It's not a lockdown, in our case, though. My office was told to work from home for a time, but when they told us to come back...we pretty much just didn't. I show up every now and then (once or twice a month, really), but since nobody I work with shows up, what's the point? We appear to have just settled into a very absent pattern of behavior.
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  23. #3543
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    Re: [RESOLVED] Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Yep.
    That does not strike as "normal" to me....But, I had a walk today, as tomorrow almost nobody is working due to our national liberty day and there where a LOT of people out, mostly outside of the bars and such as the weather allows it and, well, the vax BS. So I believe we might be returning to normal...And now the bad news. They might not want that and we get a lockdown. Will see in a month.

    P.S. I'm on a half days of the month at the office schedule for now but I get 80-85% of my salary so that is OK. Do I want to go full 100% for now...Nop but I won't stay inside at my spare time. It won't be every day out of course as the summer but I can do stuff out of the house.
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  24. #3544
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    Re: [RESOLVED] Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Summer? Is it still warm over there? Today will be somewhat warm here. I'll be out without a jacket this afternoon, but it wasn't so warm for the last several days, and it will be cooling down again tomorrow. The leaves are all changed, and most have fallen, though that depends largely on the tree.
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    Re: [RESOLVED] Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    It's around 18 degrees so could not exactly say it's warm but it's tolerable with a slim jacket. Next week will be around 20 degrees but that is typical for Greece. Normally the cold start after mid November.
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    Re: [RESOLVED] Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Got my 3rd dose of Pfizer yesterday. Muscle soreness at the injection site as expected, maybe felt some abdominal weirdness last night but there was also some pre-doctor visit fasting and weird food choices after. Today feeling a little run down, took a long nap.

    But generally no big deal and very similar to the earlier doses.

  27. #3547
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    Re: [RESOLVED] Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Why? 2dose Vaccines protected you 95% remember?
    OK let's drop the act here, in Greece we are on a total lockdown of the unvaccinated with rapid tests to go to your job or get to a store every 3 days and the vaxbies can run free. The result? Twice the covid cases than the exact same period last year.
    There is no need for super tests , hyper researches and so on, it's common logic. Unless non vaxbies we can transmit covid through the phone then vaxbies are doing all the work. If you can't understand that then fine, do your forth fifth sixth seventh dose like a junkie. And I'm talking in general not to good ol' dil.
    Funny, if we will go to lockdown due to this they will still blame the unvaccinated but, yeah, no one bites anymore. Also we are going through 65-70% vaccinated so now what happens happens from the majority.
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  28. #3548
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    Re: [RESOLVED] Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    What alternative are you proposing? No vaccination certainly doesn't protect you. Getting COVID doesn't protect you any better than a vaccine. So, what are you proposing?

    As for getting extra doses, we already do for some vaccines. Some of the nastier ones, like tetanus, requires booster shots. Flu vaccines always do, they just aren't as effective as COVID vaccines because there are a few different influenza viruses in circulation at any time, and the vaccines don't work equally against them all. The same may be the case for COVID, eventually.
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    Re: [RESOLVED] Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    What alternative are you proposing? No vaccination certainly doesn't protect you. Getting COVID doesn't protect you any better than a vaccine. So, what are you proposing?

    As for getting extra doses, we already do for some vaccines. Some of the nastier ones, like tetanus, requires booster shots. Flu vaccines always do, they just aren't as effective as COVID vaccines because there are a few different influenza viruses in circulation at any time, and the vaccines don't work equally against them all. The same may be the case for COVID, eventually.
    When I was around twelve years old I had to get the rabies vaccine. There were sick and dying bats in the bushes and me and my cousins were playing with them. A neighbor froze one and called the health department and it tested positive for rabies. MY parents followed the doctors recommendation we got the shots as a preventative measure. It was a series of fourteen shots in the abdomen, one a day for fourteen days. They do it that way because the shot is so irritating.
    Last edited by TysonLPrice; Nov 3rd, 2021 at 11:31 AM.
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  30. #3550
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    Re: [RESOLVED] Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Flu every 4-6 months? Hmm.
    I'm under the impression that flu vaccines are done yearly, once. How are they not more effective to covid that you already are on the 3rd dose in less than 2 years?

    I don't propose anything, I just listen to the doctors, not the media ones.
    Vaccination should be done to higher 65+ ages and in people with immune issues. Anything else is a waste of ape tissue.And of course NOT pushing people to do it by depriving them from their rights.
    Even so they will get infected just fine as I mentioned before. I don't think there is a chance that someone will not get covid in the future, will probably be the endemic one so might as will have or had it and did not understand it was covid. So by saying that. How many of you are vaccinated the previous years for flu? If you haven't then it hypocritical to vaccinate now for covid. If you had then I can't say anything just continue your schedule.
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  31. #3551
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    Re: [RESOLVED] Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Vaccination should be done to higher 65+ ages and in people with immune issues. Anything else is a waste of ape tissue.
    You are in a world of you own...In the US we are doing our best to counter act people pushing misinformation like that. It is literally killing people.
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  32. #3552
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    Re: [RESOLVED] Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    What misinformation? You are on a world of your own if you say that vax should be done to lower ages. In Greece we are doing our best to fork media doctors spreading this kind of info. It's literally stup people.
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  33. #3553
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    Re: [RESOLVED] Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Have you done the flu vax the previous years?
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  34. #3554
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    Re: [RESOLVED] Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Vaccination should be done to higher 65+ ages and in people with immune issues. Anything else is a waste of ape tissue.
    In the US alone @ 180,000 people under the age of 65 have died from COVID. How many have to die before you stop thinking it's a waste of time for people under 65yrs to get vaccinated?

  35. #3555
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: [RESOLVED] Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    Flu every 4-6 months? Hmm.
    I'm under the impression that flu vaccines are done yearly, once. How are they not more effective to covid that you already are on the 3rd dose in less than 2 years?
    We're not, technically. They only allow boosters for people over a certain age and those with compromised immune systems. I can't get one, yet, and may not be able to at all. Whether or not boosters will be allowed for those not in those high risk categories is unclear at this time.

    Flu shots are once a year, totally optional, and only somewhat effective. Of course, flu kills far fewer people than COVID has. It only kills a few tens of thousands each year.

    I don't propose anything, I just listen to the doctors, not the media ones.
    The problem is that you define 'the media ones' as those that don't say what you want to hear.

    How many of you are vaccinated the previous years for flu? If you haven't then it hypocritical to vaccinate now for covid. If you had then I can't say anything just continue your schedule.
    That's not true, though I did get a flu shot last year, and have already this year. My chances of suffering any ill effect from flu is essentially zero. My chance of suffering ill effect from COVID is very high. My chance of dying from COVID is less than 1%, but the odds of significant negative consequences from COVID is very high. Losing the sense of smell is pretty common, and smell is a big part of tasting food...I LIKE food. You will probably get your sense of smell back, eventually, though that isn't entirely certain, and it can take months. That's enough of a reason, alone. One of the great joys of life being reduced to chomping away on salty cardboard? No thanks.
    Last edited by Shaggy Hiker; Nov 4th, 2021 at 09:08 AM.
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  36. #3556
    King of sapila
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    Re: [RESOLVED] Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    So, If you get vaccinated you don't die, not less chances, you just don't die. But be my guest anything to prove you right.
    Also , I'm kinda through understanding what is going on in US, I would probably suggest vaccination from ages even below 16, or even below 2 years old just to be sure if that would make you feel better.

    Yes it's true I don't listen to media doctors. You know what the latest trend is? They came up and said that vaccinated people can catch and spread covid too!!!!!!
    Now! They said it last week! Should I listen to them, no thanks.

    Again non vaxbies are locked here, now vaxbies are doing what ever they are doing here and we got double the numbers from last year. Is there any other explanation than the obvious? Mind you this is happening to very few countries so we are kinda of an experiment of our own and for better or for worse I'm right in the middle of it.


    And taste. Oh come on, you eat so many garbage over there it would do you a favor.

    ...Probably be off for a couple of days. The weather is so nice I may go for an excursion somewhere covid non free.
    Last edited by sapator; Nov 3rd, 2021 at 10:39 PM. Reason: An admin once pretended to be a mod
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  37. #3557
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: [RESOLVED] Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    What misinformation? You are on a world of your own if you say that vax should be done to lower ages. In Greece we are doing our best to fork media doctors spreading this kind of info. It's literally stup people.
    It was this:

    Vaccination should be done to higher 65+ ages and in people with immune issues. Anything else is a waste of ape tissue.
    That is false, ludicrous, and dangerous misinformation. In the US we just started vaccinating kids. It is known it will save lives.
    Please remember next time...elections matter!

  38. #3558
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: [RESOLVED] Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    And taste. Oh come on, you eat so many garbage over there it would do you a favor.


    And you don't even know who your talking to. I ate straight Crisco one time (vegetable shortening, if that brand doesn't mean anything to you). Drank a bottle of corn oil, too.

    Actually, the Crisco wasn't quite plain, it had some wood ashes and flecks of pancakes in it.

    Still, you aren't totally an experiment, but the EU is beginning to resemble the US in that regard: Since each state in the US can do it's own thing for vaccinations, our states act like little experiments. The EU countries are starting to work the same way when it comes to COVID regulations.
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  39. #3559
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: [RESOLVED] Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post


    And you don't even know who your talking to. I ate straight Crisco one time (vegetable shortening, if that brand doesn't mean anything to you). Drank a bottle of corn oil, too.

    Actually, the Crisco wasn't quite plain, it had some wood ashes and flecks of pancakes in it.

    Still, you aren't totally an experiment, but the EU is beginning to resemble the US in that regard: Since each state in the US can do it's own thing for vaccinations, our states act like little experiments. The EU countries are starting to work the same way when it comes to COVID regulations.
    Why would you eat plain Crisco or drink vegetable oil?
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  40. #3560
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: [RESOLVED] Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    That's a longer story. Basically, I had dropped 30% of my body weight on a very long hike, couldn't get to town to get more food, and clearly wasn't taking in enough calories to get through the day. I'd do fine for most of the day, then completely run out of energy in the last few miles. At that point, I couldn't climb even moderate hills without sitting down every dozen or two dozen steps. I knew I needed more calories, so when I found those items...they were delicious. At 120 calories per tablespoon, that Crisco supplement to each of my meals got me to the next town.
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