Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

[sapator]

No problem Dr Answers.
Better close your clubs to unvaccinated.
We where talking about something interesting and completely different and you found a post from 3 days ago, fine but I won't go into this now.

[Shaggy Hiker]

We aren't all here all the time. Some of us have lives...and the rest? Well.....

[sapator]

I did not mean it that way. I meant it on a block of new threads why that.
But everyone can do what he/she feels like of course.
We all have lives. At least the known members that I'm aware of but I get you point.

Edit:
Is this correct? 40% admitted to hospital have been fully vaccinated?It's sky news so...

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-...lance-12359317

[Shaggy Hiker]

I looked at the site...and the popup made me too queasy to continue. They weren't asking to accept cookies, they were asking to accept....all kinds of things. Nope....just nope.

[sapator]

What's wrong with ALL cookies?
I mean, unless they are with raisins, it's fine by me.

Here, other link
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/how-many-c...171607939.html

[dilettante]

The web has become quite the wretched hive of scum and villainy. News sites are among the worst.

[techgnome]

What's wrong with ALL cookies?
I mean, unless they are with raisins, it's fine by me.

Whacha mean? raisin oatmeal cookies are the best!

-tg

[Shaggy Hiker]

I wouldn't go as far as TG, but I feel all virtuous when I eat a raisin cookie, so I don't know what you are complaining about.

[sapator]

I hate raisin in general and I don't care for the taste of oatmeal.
They are passing those cookies as "healthy". Well I DON'T WANT TO BE HEALTHY, I just want a tasty cookie....
Hmmm, having said that, if I didn't want to be healthy I would have vaccinated,so...Hmm, yeah. I DON'T WANT TO SAY FIT, I just want a tasty cookie.
The best cookies are the good ol classic, with either fruit filling or a second choice, with chocolate pieces.
Oreo are good also but I prefer these: https://greekmarket.co.uk/product/pa...ts-lemon-200g/

[Shaggy Hiker]

Frosting between wafers? Yeah, those are usually pretty good.

[dilettante]

We have a cookie here that we don't even try to sell to outsiders. I think the flavors are too strong for many people.

The flour is a mix of millet and rye, or some in cases wheat. It has dried fruit (usually either tart cherries or cranberries) and black walnuts though some people use English walnuts or even chopped peanuts. Natural applesauce is the main moistener and sweetener. Some people add butter, others do not.

But the real deal has rye and black walnuts.

[sapator]

No wonder why you don't sell them out.
It looks like you are eating whiskey with these.

The "heaviest" cookie that I'm able to digest is this: https://eshop.mymarket.gr/artozachar...sokolata-180gr
But if I eat more than 2 is like have eaten a full meal.

[dilettante]

Not whiskey. People usually eat them with a "double dutch" dark hot chocolate made from cocoa and evaporated milk. More of a winter time thing really.

[sapator]

I don't want to confront on something but I'm seeing that Greece and France are starting to "boil" on the mandatory vaccination.
Personally, despite on what we are writing here semi joke semi serious, I'm not against vaccination by personal choice but mandatory vaccination is starting to hit people liberation instincts .

Seaside time!

[jasonakendrick]

I sort of feel that this mirrors the state overall. On the off chance that you ask individuals here to make some minor move to benefit everyone around them, a pack will consent to do as such, and a critical rate will say, "Damnation NO! You can't cause me to do ANYTHING." I get the impression they'd quit breathing in the event that you disclosed to them that their breathing would help people around them.

[dilettante]

Contrarianism is the new conformity.

[sapator]

The problem is make you something experimental to you body by force.
They should have thought of that no matter if they are right or wrong.

[dilettante]

That's the absurd part. There is nothing "experimental" about the vaccines. Even the mRNA ones make use of proven technology, this is just a new application of it. Plus you also have other options based on more conventional technologies. Of course if you seriously insist on the old style vaccines then you have to consider they have more known side effects and are less efficacious, but still better than nothing.

At this point nothing is going to change the minds of mules though. They will insist on lighting themselves on fire and running into crowds no matter what anyone tells them.

[sapator]

Even if I agree with you, which I don't, the mandatory vaccination is driving people on the streets.
As I've said before, even thought I probably can't do the vaccine due to medical reasons, I still support the mules than the vaxbies.
You should not impose, that's my view.
I may be wrong but I'm feeling that we will soon witnessing events that are boiling for months now.

At the very least we should hand our dictator. We won't impose the noose, we will let him do it.

[Shaggy Hiker]

In this state, EVERYTHING drives some people onto the streets. What's important to keep in mind is: Who are these people, and how many of them are there?

The reason I say this might be missed on you, Sapator, since you're half a globe away, so you may not have heard about some of the loons running around in this state. We sent somebody to Congress who introduced a bill to repeal the law of gravity. He had to clarify that he was doing so to make a point, because with him, it wasn't quite clear whether he was serious or not. That guy will be downright mainstream in our next governors election, and the lunatic fringe that will be running will each get a few percent of the vote in this state. That means that, in this state, there will be a few tens of thousands of people who will vote for some militant loonies.

To sum it up: We could bring a thousand people out to protest ANYTHING, and we're doing it. They're loud, they're angry, and they're such a tiny minority that they shouldn't be able to move much of anything. They only get loud opposition if they choose a position so offensive that the majority comes out to counter-protest. Vaccine views aren't offensive, at this point, so you only get that fringe protesting.

Still, it could be hundreds of people, possibly thousands. It's meaningless.

We have a group of legislators who are getting all hot about one of the hospitals making vaccines mandatory for staff. The hospital has been doing this for decades with other vaccines and flu shots and nobody has said a thing, but now, with the COVID vaccine, it's suddenly an infringement on personal rights. Why wasn't it an infringement when they required other vaccines?

[Shaggy Hiker]

The mRNA vaccines have gone through all the trials that has ever been asked of them. At what point are they not 'experimental'? They can't go through more tests, because there aren't anymore that are asked of them. The only thing that can happen at this time is that time can pass. But how long? Do you want five years to pass before any new treatment is allowed to be used on the general public? Ten?

That's all that remains to differentiate those vaccines from any other treatment. They went through a full three stage clinical trial, and the results were excellent. There isn't a four stage trial, so there's nothing more rigorous other than to wait. So, at what point are they not experimental?

[sapator]

Calling them conditional and when they are not experimental is not my decision, anyone who think that they should not be could make an appeal to the world health organization.
That is not the point though, the point is the mandatory thing.
OK you got loons there, more than here I should guess
Well here it's not a small group against mandatory vaxs, apart from people staying at home thinking that this is tyranny there where close to 100.000 people Greece wide protesting on the last 2 protest happened here. The fundamentals of modern western civilization was build on freedom of choice , if we want to abolish that be my guest but we are going to fight.
And to quote the immortal world of me going to the toilet after a big case of dusenteria... Freedddoooommmm!

Also Salute to our fellow French protests. Down with tyranny up with blatany!.. I mean, errr, your time is coming dictator! There.

[Shaggy Hiker]

OK you got loons there, more than here I should guess

I certainly hope so. Our density is a bit high.

[dilettante]

We're still doing pretty good here. Cases are up a little so that won't last, but so far we still have no lockdowns or masking requirements in most scenarios.

I did venture out for a hot dog and noticed only 1/3 of people wearing masks both inside the stand as well as sitting at the tables outside. This is a pretty woke community so I was a bit surprised.

Got a call from my prescription drug insurer asking for a rundown of my medications, supplements, making sure I stay on top of them, my vaccine status, etc. They were specifically interested in making sure I'm taking D3, Zinc, and Elderberry in moderation as immune boosters. Yesterday I got a call from my part A & B provider about making sure I get out for exercise. I guess once you are on Medicare you attract more interest.

[FunkyDexter]

the point is the mandatory thing

On this I actually agree with you. On the whole I'm against the idea that we should legally force people to put anything in their body.

Social pressure is a different thing - I'm happy to tell anyone that refuses the vaccine that they're a douchebag who's putting other peoples lives at risk. I also don't have any problem with businesses saying, we won't employ/serve you if you don't get vaccinated. You have the absolute right to elect to be a second class citizen.

However, I would oppose a legal requirement to get the vaccine. People have a right to be a douchebag.

That said, we do have precedent for legally mandating personal choice when that choice could harm others. We have laws against drink driving because we recognise that it may not be the drink driver who ends up dying.

[sapator]

That is not the same thing.
If you drive drank is not compared to not vaccinated.

Anyhow....
Oh you called me a douchebag! Bad Funnky!
Hope your doing well.
Btw since you are in UK, is the 60-40 vax admissions true? https://uk.news.yahoo.com/how-many-c...171607939.html
If it is...Hmmm...

[sapator]

5522 death in Scotland after 28 days of receiving the vaccine.
I know, you are going to say that in 28 days a lot can happen, so OK let's cut this in half and go for 2761 deaths so everyone can be satisfied
https://dailyexpose.co.uk/2021/07/18...alth-scotland/

[PlausiblyDamp]

5522 death in Scotland after 28 days of receiving the vaccine.
I know, you are going to say that in 28 days a lot can happen, so OK let's cut this in half and go for 2761 deaths so everyone can be satisfied
https://dailyexpose.co.uk/2021/07/18...alth-scotland/

So you are quoting a site that claims the vaccines are the cause of death "920 deaths occurring every month due to the Covid-19 vaccines" which is hardly the truth even if the numbers hold up. The total deaths for Scotland are under 8,000 when you look at the official figures https://www.gov.scot/publications/co...-for-scotland/ so I would already treat those claims with suspicion.

The site in question is known for promoting fake news, anti-vax propaganda, etc. https://www.logically.ai/articles/ac...e-daily-expose and https://www.chillfiltr.com/exposing-...ishonest-media are both worth a look regarding this.

If you drive drank is not compared to not vaccinated.

Maybe not exactly the same thing, but in both cases you are willing to risk the lives of others for your own selfish reasons.

Vaccines have been around since before 1800, they have saved countless lives over the years and improved the quality of life for millions, the fact people are believing whatever junk conspiracy theorists on Facebook etc are spouting and as a direct result are willing to not only put their own lives at risk (can't say that bothers me much) but the lives of everyone they come into contact with at risk (that does bother me).

Watching a couple of youtube videos does not make anyone an expert or get to be classed as "researching" the vaccine. Unless you have a working knowledge of how diseases etc. are transmitted, how the body fights / succumbs to them, how vaccines and medicines work you are spouting opinions and not facts. People spend decades of their lives researching these things and therefore are the experts?

Would you make changes to your car's brakes or steering, your home electric MCB, or similar because a youtube video claimed "the need for brakes on a car is a conspiracy pushed by big-autorepair"? Would you choose to eat in a restaurant that claimed "basic sanitation and hygiene is a conspiracy pushed by big-soap and that chefs should be allowed to use the toilet and then handle your food as a matter of personal choice"?

I am sure if I looked hard enough I would find theories claiming modern soap contains tracking nanobots that allow the illuminati to see my every move and also control my actions...

[si_the_geek]

Maybe not exactly the same thing, but in both cases you are willing to risk the lives of others for your own selfish reasons.

The big difference is the scale of selfishness... drink-driving and hygiene etc are about being lazy/cheap/etc, whereas the vaccines can cause health issues (such as those more likely to have blood clots, but in that example alternative vaccines are available), and there are various other valid reasons too (including people from minorities who only have access to bigoted GPs, so know the side effects of the vaccine could end up killing them or doing long-term damage).

While those believing conspiracy theories are being foolish (and selfish because of that), there are many who do have proper reasons to avoid being vaccinated.

[dilettante]

If my car has "breaks" I'd get them fixed, if it "breaks" a lot I'd get a better brand.

[FunkyDexter]

If my car has "breaks" I'd get them fixed, if it "breaks" a lot I'd get a better brand.

^That's a much better metaphor for what I was trying to say.

[Shaggy Hiker]

I don't think drunk driving is quite as good an analogy, because people die rather suddenly. We have laws about wearing seatbelts, which I think is a better analogy. If you don't wear a seatbelt, you aren't likely to kill somebody else...unless you are propelled through the windshield and hit them, but that would be quite the coincidence. Still, you can be fined for not wearing a seatbelt, even in this state where they want to block employers from requiring vaccines.

It's an interesting situation. They recognized that there was a public cost to people not wearing seatbelts, so they were willing to pass laws requiring that people wear them, but when it comes to vaccines? There, even a private company shouldn't be allowed to require it. There isn't much consistency there.

[PlausiblyDamp]

The big difference is the scale of selfishness... drink-driving and hygiene etc are about being lazy/cheap/etc, whereas the vaccines can cause health issues (such as those more likely to have blood clots, but in that example alternative vaccines are available), and there are various other valid reasons too (including people from minorities who only have access to bigoted GPs, so know the side effects of the vaccine could end up killing them or doing long-term damage).

While those believing conspiracy theories are being foolish (and selfish because of that), there are many who do have proper reasons to avoid being vaccinated.

True, I should have been more clear about the fact I am referring to people who have no medical reasons etc. for refusing the vaccine but still refuse it.

A couple of my neighbours aren't being vaccinated for the simple reason "we never go anywhere so we can't be bothered", laziness is not just limited to hygiene. Also the same neighbour is a three generation household, school age children, parents in their 40s / 50s and an elderly grandparent with health conditions. Couple that with the fact at least two of the people living there work in potentially crowded locations (supermarket and a factory workshop) so they do actually go to places.

[sapator]

I was asking about Scotland not embrace it.
I am also asking about UK, since you are closer to the source.
I'm also against mandatory vax whatever example you make.
The example is that you don't get vaxinated so you will make other ill?
I don't get the example.
If all the non vax people are selfish and they don't do it then what is all the bark about?
Vaxbies are well protected by the vaccines, isn't that what you are saying?
So the problem is on the lazy non vax that they will kill each other. You should be happy as you will get rid of the laziness.
So non vax should do it because? Their are getting on your nerves? If they don't care why should you and mandatorize them?
Driving drank is completely different as was said, I guess it was a bad example.
On the other hand, vaxbies gonna vaxb.

[PlausiblyDamp]

I was asking about Scotland not embrace it.
I am also asking about UK, since you are closer to the source.
I'm also against mandatory vax whatever example you make.
The example is that you don't get vaxinated so you will make other ill?
I don't get the example.
If all the non vax people are selfish and they don't do it then what is all the bark about?
Vaxbies are well protected by the vaccines, isn't that what you are saying?
So the problem is on the lazy non vax that they will kill each other. You should be happy as you will get rid of the laziness.
So non vax should do it because? Their are getting on your nerves? If they don't care why should you and mandatorize them?
Driving drank is completely different as was said, I guess it was a bad example.
On the other hand, vaxbies gonna vaxb.

If you choose not to get vaccinated you have a higher risk of getting covid and therefore you can spread it to other people, this is going to increase the rate it spreads and makes it very dangerous to those who can't get vaccinated for legitimate reasons. The more people who are infected the quicker it spreads, getting vaccinated reduces the chances of getting infected, therefore reducing how much it spreads. Getting vaccinated also reduces the severity if you do actually get it as well.

If it was only the non-vax causing other non-vax to die I would just put that down to Darwin at work, the problem is they are just as likely to kill people who can't get vaccinated. This is an utterly selfish attitude, similar to drink drivers.

[sapator]

Getting vaccinated does not reduce the chances of getting infected, it supposedly make you less ill and that is questionable as per UK link I've posted and still get no answer.
People that cannot get vaccinated should be careful on both vax and non vax as they can equally get infected.
People that cannot get vaccinated should take the precautions that they would have taken for the common flu.
As I've said I proly can't get vaccinated but I don't push people to get vaccinated to save myself. This is selfish and against the rights of choice that other peoples have. Unless we want to cancel those rights. Our dictator is trying to here anyhow.

[sapator]

I was also curious.
How would you specify a "smaller" dictator? Is dictatorisk a word that can be used?
Meaning a new dictator that wannabe big.

[PlausiblyDamp]

Getting vaccinated does not reduce the chances of getting infected, it supposedly make you less ill and that is questionable as per UK link I've posted and still get no answer.

The vaccines do reduce, not eliminate, your chances of getting covid. This is one of the main reasons you should be vaccinated. https://covid.joinzoe.com/post/risk-covid-after-vaccine and https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...ugh-cases.html and https://www.newscientist.com/article...a-vaccination/ and https://www.gov.uk/government/news/v...-after-2-doses

Which link are you referring to?

People that cannot get vaccinated should be careful on both vax and non vax as they can equally get infected.

Actually it looks that vaccinated people who are infected have a lower chance of passing on covid, so although it doesn't prevent transmission it is at a lower rate. Certainly not "equally".
https://khub.net/documents/135939561...=1619601878136

People that cannot get vaccinated should take the precautions that they would have taken for the common flu.

I am not saying that people who cannot get vaccinated shouldn't take precautions, however covid is a lot more serious than the common flu and the risk of death is higher. If people who can get vaccinated choose to get vaccinated this will reduce the ability of covid to spread and therefore reduce the risk of vulnerable people catching covid.

As I've said I proly can't get vaccinated but I don't push people to get vaccinated to save myself. This is selfish and against the rights of choice that other peoples have. Unless we want to cancel those rights. Our dictator is trying to here anyhow.

A large part of living in a modern society is giving up individual rights for the good of society. The vast majority of laws are effectively nothing more than rules that restrict an individual's rights for the betterment of society.

[dilettante]

Once in a while somebody dies because they wore a seat belt. Foolish people take that as vindication for not wearing one.

Wrong.

[sapator]

I'm bored to get into the circular discussion again.
I would suggest tho that if you are so keen on giving up rights for the good of society, how about voting in favor for mandatory giving up one of your kidneys?
For people that need one.

So is it dictatorisk a word I can use?