Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Use the raw numbers of total deaths, and total change in deaths. Once you get into percent changes, or per thousand (per cent would be per hundred, so why per thousand, why not permilli, or something like that?), you can fiddle with the numbers to make the change look large or small, depending on your objective.

Even if you look at those CDC numbers, there is a cause of death for all of them, and the total death figure is just a sum of all those. One might reasonably argue that a certain death should be shifted from this category to that category, and which category a death is placed in can greatly change how deadly certain things are. The bottom line is the total deaths, though.

In the US, the total deaths SHOULD rise each year, because the population rose, and is aging. However, if you take the worst of the three previous years, you would expect perhaps 70,000 more deaths than 2019, and you got over 500,000. It would be awfully hard to come up with some explanation for that increase that is not COVID.

This is how the true toll of COVID is generally calculated. Different countries report COVID deaths differently, often depending on what message they want to send. Interestingly, they tend not to play games with the total death toll (at least for countries that even track that figure). For that reason, Russia and India can be shown to be grossly under reporting the deaths due to COVID, but then again, so is the US.

That's also why I thought your Greek numbers were so interesting. You don't appear to have an increase in total deaths the way we have.

[Schmidt]

I suspect that we won't know which decisions were right and which were wrong - nor the full impact of those decisions - for years.

Though still you're making comparisons anyways...

I'm quite convinced, that over the next months and years, nearly everyone will catch the disease at least once.

Sweden is just ahead of Canada in terms of "infections over the populace" (percentually).

And they seem to do quite a bit better than Canada, in "handling them, when they happen"
(the case/fatality ratio is 1.3% in Sweden and 1.7% in Canada).

So, you are right - at this point we just cannot know (and shouldn't "judge" too soon)...

Nobody doubts, that the vaccine is lowering the risk of becoming a "fatal case"...
Currently...

Though IMO - it could very well be, that the "more risky, but then much stronger" -
natural immune-response of an unvaccinated person (when non-fatal), might offer
a much better over-all protection over the long haul (say, the next two years)...
in terms of "final fatality-risk", compared to a multi-vaccinated specimen.

Olaf

[jpbro]

Though still you're making comparisons anyways...

Yeah, well we are in "chit-chat" so I thought I'd join the conversation after lurking for so long Nobody should be taking me too seriously though, I'm just some guy on the Internet.

I'm quite convinced, that over the next months and years, nearly everyone will catch the disease at least once.

I agree.

Sweden is just ahead of Canada in terms of "infections over the populace" (percentually).

I'm not overly concerned with the infection numbers, especially now that most people (here at least) are vaccinated. As you say, it's likely that we'll all catch it eventually. The only thing I'm concerned about is how bad the cases get and how closely together the bad cases are lumped. If there are surges that break the healthcare system, that causes unnecessary death an suffering. If vaccines can reduce the number of people in the hospital (which appears to be the case here at least), then I think that is a good thing. Could there be unintended consequences down the road? Absolutely. Maybe you'll be right and the vaccinated population will spawn a new variant that is worse, but we'll have at least kicked the can down the road and will have time to tweak the vaccine to deal with new variants. I could be very wrong about this, but AFAIK we already do this with the flu vaccine AFAIK - coming up new formulations every year to help reduce the risk of serious illness based on a best guess for what the dangerous variant will be that given season. I already get the flu shot every year (almost - more on that below), so even if I have to start getting a combined CoviFlu or FluVid vaccine one day, then so be it.

And they seem to do quite a bit better than Canada, in "handling them, when they happen"
(the case/fatality ratio is 1.3% in Sweden and 1.7% in Canada).

Yeah, if I sounded like I was defending our healthcare system, I wasn't - it definitely has its problems after decades of spending cuts. So yeah, even though we have fewer deaths overall, you are more likely to die here if you catch COVID.

So, you are right - at this point we just cannot know (and shouldn't "judge" too soon)...

I agree with this too, the only thing I am trying to point out is how the numbers look right here, right now. In my province at least, it's clear that the vaccine is helping with the immediate problem as hospitalizations are dropping and the virus' Rt is now below 1.0. Of course, this can change at any time - I stopped trying to predict the future.

Though IMO - it could very well be, that the "more risky, but then much stronger" -
natural immune-response of an unvaccinated person (when non-fatal), might offer
a much better over-all protection over the long haul (say, the next two years)...
in terms of "final fatality-risk", compared to a multi-vaccinated specimen.

Yeah, we'll have to wait and see I guess. All I know is that I missed the flu vaccine one year and happened to catch a reasonably bad case of it. It was not a pleasant experience, so I now err on the side of getting vaccinated. I'm the primary breadwinner for my family, and I don't want to risk getting very ill (or even moderately ill) if I can help it. The vaccine seemed to be the best way to lower that risk. You've made a different calculation, and that's fine. We've both placed our bets and all I hope is that we are both right and that any case of COVID we get is mild and that reasonable immunity is kept for a while. As always, time will tell.

[[citation-needed]]

Though IMO - it could very well be, that the "more risky, but then much stronger" -
natural immune-response of an unvaccinated person (when non-fatal), might offer
a much better over-all protection over the long haul (say, the next two years)...
in terms of "final fatality-risk", compared to a multi-vaccinated specimen.

No, your antibodies are not better than vaccination: An explainer

There's no need to guess. We have ample data on the duration of vaccine protection vs "natural immune response" protection (although this is silly terminology, because vaccine protection *is* natural immune response protection - the vaccine just gives your immune system a high-dose, carefully targeted sample to train against).

As the multiple studies cited in the linked article explain, even if you survive a "natural" case of COVID, you still benefit significantly from vaccination.

[sapator]

Yeah I highly doubt vaccine will give you higher protection.
Just by reading that: Infection does offer some immune protection—but it's unreliable compared with vaccines.
I won't bother reading more.
I wanted to say something.....Heck...What was it....
Ah, yes, as I've said I highly doubt the CDC numbers. As Shaggy pointed out Greece and most of the countries are in a normal graph of increasing deaths but not USA. So either you are something special there doing something wrong or the numbers are furballs. I just mentioned the article so I'll fair on the comparisons. I really started doubting CDC when they posted an article saying that vaccination has higher immunity than natural immunity. I don't know if it is still there. A lot and I mean A LOT of scientist in Greece where bashing that article. Maybe they did it by mistake maybe the devil told them to (pfizer) but that was a bad move.

P.S. Go Italy!!!Go protests! Don't let your dictator vaxb you! And I can call him however I want since he was the main EU banker pawn that deprived us from our income.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Ah, yes, as I've said I highly doubt the CDC numbers. As Shaggy pointed out Greece and most of the countries are in a normal graph of increasing deaths but not USA. So either you are something special there doing something wrong or the numbers are furballs.

It's the latter. If this state is any indication. The CDC is what even the anti-vaxxers tend to use in their propaganda as the gold standard...they just alter the numbers that don't say what they want.

EDIT: Oh, and if you are wondering what special thing we are doing wrong, how about this: We're in the midst of an epidemic that is known to be highly contagious, and we are doing NOTHING. In this state, there is almost no change from the way things were in 2019. Perhaps 5-10% are wearing masks, but that's it, despite nearly 60% not being vaccinated. There may be some large events that are doing something related to the virus, but I haven't seen any. So, what you are seeing is what happens when the response to COVID is to pretend it doesn't exist.

[dilettante]

We're in the midst of an epidemic that is known to be highly contagious, and we are doing NOTHING. In this state, there is almost no change from the way things were in 2019. Perhaps 5-10% are wearing masks, but that's it, despite nearly 60% not being vaccinated.

Our vaccination levels aren't that bad, but the rest of it fits.

I've watched mask wearing drop from maybe 95% compliance down to very low levels right now. And that despite the fact that here we are only now approaching our peak for new cases of Delta.

We staved off the worst of it for a long time. But from what I see we should probably expect to reach new infection rates similar to those in the south where Delta had taken off with a vengeance months ago.

While fatigue and belligerence are factors in this, it still seems like the greatest factor is transportation, i.e. movement by the infected.

Licking zombies doesn't matter until the zombie horde arrives.

[Schmidt]

vaccine protection *is* natural immune response protection

You don't have to explain to me, how the immune-system reacts to vaccinations.

...a high-dose, carefully targeted sample to train against.

Yep, and in the process, learning how to produce a "B-team" (or even only a "C-team") of antibodies -
(whereas the "untrained natural response" has a higher chance, to come up with an "A-team").

I'm not strictly against vaccinations of any kind - but never took flu-shots my whole life for that reason.
I might start with it, when I get older though (no "fear of jabs" here).

What I cannot understand is, the current "branding and shaming" of those who decided to not get vaccinated.
What the...?

Le them do their own risk-calculations and tolerate decisions which have to do with their own body.

Already a long time ago I've decided for myself, to "donate my organs when I'm dead".

Do I now run around and "evangelize" anybody I encounter, to do the same?
Nope.

Where is the media-outcry in that regard?
- "Help the hospitals to save even more lifes"
- "Become an organ donor, when you're dead"
- "If you don't, then you are an anti-social a-hole"
- "Come on, you don't need your body anymore when you're dead"

Never seen any campaign in public media like that...
Kinda seems that a "dead body" is considered more sacrosanct,
than the rights of your "living, breathing fellow countryman".

Olaf

[sapator]

I'm curious to see the US numbers of deaths in 2021. I can't find a link, logically because 2021 is not yet over but is there a "till now" table?

[Shaggy Hiker]

I'm curious to see the US numbers of deaths in 2021. I can't find a link, logically because 2021 is not yet over but is there a "till now" table?

No, I don't believe there is such a table. If you look at the links I provided, you'll see that even by October, the 2020 data is still listed as provisional, and has a note that it has been updated. I took a look at the update, and it was just changing some language about how they define different racial groups, or something like that, so it's not important, but it does mean that they haven't fully put to bed the 2020 figures, let alone 2021.

Back around the end of January, somebody sent me a propaganda piece that listed the 2017, 2018, 2019, and 2020 mortality figures. They stated that the first three were from the CDC, and didn't say where they got their 2020 figures from, but the way they wrote it, they strongly implied that they were also from the CDC. I checked their figures. They were fairly accurate for the first three (though one was rounded to the nearest thousand, for some reason), but the 2020 figures didn't exist at all.

Because of that, I followed when the CDC was putting out numbers, and it appears to be roughly mid to late February of the following year, so we should see 2021 figures around February of 2022. Prior to that, there isn't anything of use. Of course, there MUST be some kind of partial data, but it doesn't appear to be publicized.

Considering how difficult it is to get even less controversial data in a timely manner (number of salmon coming into the Columbia River, for example), for them to get a number out only a month or two after the year ends is doing pretty well.

[PlausiblyDamp]

You don't have to explain to me, how the immune-system reacts to vaccinations.


Yep, and in the process, learning how to produce a "B-team" (or even only a "C-team") of antibodies -
(whereas the "untrained natural response" has a higher chance, to come up with an "A-team").

Recent research seems to indicate exactly the opposite, vaccines give better immunity compared to natural infections - https://arstechnica.com/science/2021...covid-19-shot/

[Schmidt]

Recent research seems to indicate exactly the opposite, vaccines give better immunity compared to natural infections - https://arstechnica.com/science/2021...covid-19-shot/

The only study mentioned there, with a significant number of specimen (~52,000) says, that this is not the case:

In a study conducted at Cleveland Clinic and posted online in June, researchers found that among 52,238 employees, there were no differences in COVID-19 case rates between employees who were unvaccinated but previously infected, vaccinated and previously infected, and vaccinated people with no previous infection. "Individuals who have had SARS-CoV-2 infection are unlikely to benefit from COVID-19 vaccination," the authors concluded.

Olaf

[[citation-needed]]

The only study mentioned there, with a significant number of specimen (~52,000) says, that this is not the case:

(Pssst... this is the article I linked in #3404.)

As the authors of the article state, that study was conducted when vaccine supplies were limited and before the more-contagious delta variant became the predominant strain. Both of those variables are no longer true.

Don't cherry-pick a single study based on old data. Read to the end of the article to see the clear summary from the most recent studies:

Overall, the variable immune responses to infection, lower neutralization against delta, and the clear boost in protection from a very safe, highly effective vaccine make a strong argument for vaccinating the recovered.

What I cannot understand is, the current "branding and shaming" of those who decided to not get vaccinated.

For the same reason most live in countries where alcohol consumption is legal but driving under the influence is, to quote you, "branded and shamed." Rights to bodily autonomy are inversely proportional to potential for harming other's right to bodily autonomy.

Skepticism is healthy. No one should shame that. Ignoring legitimate sources in favor of preconceived notions is not.

[sapator]

Yes we are saved, vaccines are better than natural immunity! Praise the lord!
So I should add to Olaf. First the study has links after links after links, so going in the to reports. The French one concludes:
"These results strongly suggest that vaccination of previously infected individuals is likely to be protective against a large array of circulating viral strains, including the Delta variant."

The second one concludes:
"At present it is unclear how antibody acquisition, particularly for low titer individuals, might afford future immunity to SARS-CoV-2. Further research will be required to determine the minimum threshold of antibody and neutralization activity necessary to accurately predict immunity. Correlation of clinical antibody tests with neutralization activity in this study could serve as a valuable ‘roadmap’ to guide the choice and interpretation of serological tests for SARS-CoV-2."

What they suggest is that a natural immunity may or may not be boosted with vaccination.

Here is a study of Howard Hughes Molecular Immunology:
https://www.rockefeller.edu/news/309...ponses-emerge/
It says that the Betas where highly boosted from the vaccine for 2 months but after that natural immunity took the lead and outperform Mr.Nay.

What mainly suggested in most of the studies is that a mix of natural immunity and a vaccine, might, boost the immunity but it is still unclear, not that vaccines are better than natural immunity.

More studies of natural immunity being better:
https://www.science.org/content/arti...-remains-vital
https://www.news-medical.net/news/20...ccination.aspx
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....24.21262415v1
https://theconversation.com/covid-in...atch-it-167122

Anyhow the argument is so false I can't be bothered answering again. Believe what you like, I still see no reason to vaccinate people below 60-65 but if you feel comfortable and protected then by all means go for it but don't mandate people to do it. I'm talking to our local idiots at the Greek white house, that is actually called "Maximou" in Greece.

[sapator]

So let's think of this for a moment. Companies that had the Mr.Nay technology years ago and never bothered to use it at flu, see the flue as an opportunity, of course there are more in the background on how and why the flueken came to pass but let's skip that. So they are so humanitarian that create vaccines that "save" us, on the other hand they start overpricing the vaccines. People are spread in mainly 2 categories. Vaxbies and Vaxxers. Vaxbies been on the low tide as they are less, think that they posses the ultimate truth and attack the no vaxed (with exceptions), they poses the "we all going to die" stasis and for "our own good" they to mandate the vaccines with highly aggressive policies with green pass and all that BS. systemic media get into the battle. Theories of vaccines be better than natural immunity from CDC go public, lockdown take place but everything mortality related on rising chars on few countries because the rest show almost identical years are suspected to covid. No poverty deaths no suicides no flu nothing just covid. Then some countries go mega vax, Israel, UK,USA , vaccine immunity raise and then fall. 95% great,90%,great,60% great,45% great...Oh snap! Third doses, vaccine immunity is better go do the 3rds.Delta kills equally, no data on the 3rd symptoms but governments open up the 3rds, medical companies to the rescue. Covid still raising but that is the unvax fault, although vaxbies spread equally, infected equally and studies to come will show that they take the upper hand on intensive care but nop, non vax to blame. On the other hand non vaxs do nothing, they don't attack the vaxbirds they don't tell them to go to concentration vaxbie camps, they just protest against mandate but they still get bashed.
That sums the chapter "in the mind of sapator" oh confusing little sap, so sad. But in the end all we want is vaxbies to leave us alone to be free and spread equally.
Not here. Here the Greece astrostups decided to let vaxbies loose. No masks no social distances no lockdown no nothing but when the numbers raise....Oh the non vaxbies to blame.
However there is something that the vaxbies haven't planned, there is the ultimate truth that will swipe the plaque and plots of the vaxpires the vaxbies and the vaxenstains....
Endemic Endemic Endemic.Coming soon to a cinema near you, like it or not and in 3D.

I prolly should explain that the gibberish is in an euthymic mood so I won't get vaxbie bites..Or bytes, maybe in this forum..
I should edit cuz 100% i have wrongs but, meh. if you have made it so far you deserve the ultimate truth. The cure for covid is.....Ssssss-sssyst-eemmm down... Damn so close!

[Schmidt]

(Pssst... this is the article I linked in #3404.)

Why do you tell *me* and not PlausiblyDamp?
I've read it already when you posted it.

Don't cherry-pick a single study based on old data.

It's kind of funny that I'm accused of cherry-picking - when it was clearly the Author of the article who did that.
(comparing a decent study with two other ones, where the specimen-base was 200 and about 50 respectively)

So, again - the study with a decent amount of "sample cases" came to the conclusion,
that natural occuring immunization is "going as strong as it always does".
No real surprising result there.

Not a single one of the 1359 specimen who were unvaccinated (and "made it through"),
was infected again over the duration of the study.

And sure, the "D-variant" was not in full swing at the time the study was made...

But later studies made in Israel (also based on decently large sample-groups) unsurprisingly come to the same conclusion -
incorporating the D-variant:
https://www.science.org/content/arti...-remains-vital

“It’s a textbook example of how natural immunity is really better than vaccination...”

Skepticism is healthy.
Ignoring legitimate sources in favor of preconceived notions is not.

Which is exactly what you do here -
shame on you...

Olaf

[sapator]

(Pssst... this is the article I linked in #3415.) LOL.
If you care, citation. If you are not uncomfortable with that. You are from USA - UK? I can't get that sudden jump and attack. Not that is anything wrong with that but just saying...You do know that we are mostly insane here,right?

[sapator]

Government is taking back the mandatory vax pass for workers.
We must do the same in Greece and in every other country. GO ITALY!!!!!!!!!

[Shaggy Hiker]

Don't care if you usually swear or not, but doing so in this forum is against the AUP. You didn't need to say that in that fashion.

[TysonLPrice]

Don't care if you usually swear or not, but doing so in this forum is against the AUP. You didn't need to say that in that fashion.

I got a private cease and desist message from a moderator once for trying to mask profanity with things like ** and $$. I guess that doesn't really hide anything

[dilettante]

That's nothing. I got banned once for using the perfectly good word "ignorant" in context.

[sapator]

OK guys I'm sorry for that, it's how Greeks reacts in extreme cases so I apologize for any inconvenience.

[Shaggy Hiker]

I got banned for using no profanity at all, just a somewhat blue phrase.

Everybody has different standards and different responses.

[dilettante]

Infection rates are still going up here as Delta spreads. Adjacent Ohio is on the way down, and currently our rates are equal.

It still looks like a "wildfire spread" pattern to me. And I still think the pattern suggests that curbing casual travel between population centers should help moderate the pandemic. Remember "flatten the curve?" That's the moderation I mean. Slowing the pace so people are less likely to acquire a high viral load when infected and more generally place less of a burden on health care resources at any one point in time.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Yeah, all kinds of things COULD work, but I'd say that at this point, it is pretty clear that most of the US is going to opt for doing nothing at all.

[FunkyDexter]

I still think the pattern suggests that curbing casual travel between population centers should help moderate the pandemic

I agree but, as Shaggy said, I'm not sure if it'd be politically achievable at this point.

If I look at the situation in the US I think you should still be wearing masks en-masse, getting your vaccination rates up and curbing any unnecessary travel. I can't picture it happening though - you've got too mane crazies over there.

[dilettante]

Actually a lot of the US has already come a good way down the "Delta wave" curve, though not enough to relax cautionary efforts yet. Certainly not where I am, since we are still crawling the Delta upslope.


Evidence may be growing that masking and distancing are fairly ineffective, but they seem like reasonable enough measures to make taking the chance to do without pretty silly. But the ineffectiveness may be due to things like the prevalence of improper mask wearing. You've seen them: nose sticking out, do-rag on the face instead of a halfway decent mask, masks over beards, masks worn under the chin, etc.

Vaccination levels are still climbing very slowly overall, though faster in many states where Delta hit hard already. It seems like some people only get interested once they find their local area on fire. The joke's on them when they find out each dose needs weeks to do it's part in building a defense.


Dr. C shows some trends that look alarming:



Things seem far from rosy there in Narnia right now. UK new cases are actually far higher than in the US and really have been for a long time aside from our national Delta peak.

The last 1/3 of that is a "report" from a guy in Oz. Parts of Australia as well as NZ appear to be rising quickly too. "Down under" this may be Delta, but what's your excuse there in Blighty?

[sapator]

I'm afraid that the problem seems to be the vaccinated.
They are under the fault assumption that they are protected so they don't give in to the safety measures anymore. No masks no distances and no other protection whatsoever.
So there's no wonder the spread.
Non vaccinated are more aware of the issue because, if you exclude as small amount that they are anti vaxxers they take precautions because:
1)They are aware that they might be in more danger of covid but they don't trust those specific vaccines, so they are more careful on precautions.
2)They take covid more lightly but they are not sure what the vaccinated people can spread right now that they did the experimental vaccines so they keep their alarm up. Also crosses and silver bullets.
3)They are more contained on companies of restaurants because vaxbies think that the unvaccinated spread, so they have them in "special" desks or offices or seats.
4)They don't care about covid but due to their good nature and behavior they indulge the vaccinated that think non vaccinated will kill them and they take precautions in the sight of them.
Hopefully we are endemicing so vaccinated people will escape quarantine or send to vaccinated camps so we can be safe.

[TysonLPrice]

I'm afraid that the problem seems to be the vaccinated.

Actually the problem, in the US anyway, are people that spread this kind of garbage.

[PlausiblyDamp]

I'm afraid that the problem seems to be the vaccinated.

Of course you think that/

They are under the fault assumption that they are protected so they don't give in to the safety measures anymore. No masks no distances and no other protection whatsoever.

I have found it tends to be exactly the opposite, the anti-vaxers are also the anti-maskers, anti-social distancing, anti-covid is real, covid is just the flu, type of person. Every person I personally know who has had the vaccine still wears a mask in social situations, or at least in any of the situations I have been present.

So there's no wonder the spread.
Non vaccinated are more aware of the issue because, if you exclude as small amount that they are anti vaxxers they take precautions because:
1)They are aware that they might be in more danger of covid but they don't trust those specific vaccines, so they are more careful on precautions.

Most of the anti-vax rhetoric is denying that covid is any more dangerous than the flu, denying it exists or claiming it is an infringement of their social liberties along with being made to wear a mask etc.

2)They take covid more lightly but they are not sure what the vaccinated people can spread right now that they did the experimental vaccines so they keep their alarm up. Also crosses and silver bullets.

Approved vaccines, not experimental.

3)They are more contained on companies of restaurants because vaxbies think that the unvaccinated spread, so they have them in "special" desks or offices or seats.

The unvaccinated do spread, not saying the vaccinated don't either, but the unvaccinated certainly spread. The unvaccinated are more likely to be infected as well, that increases the risk of them spreading.

4)They don't care about covid but due to their good nature and behavior they indulge the vaccinated that think non vaccinated will kill them and they take precautions in the sight of them.
Hopefully we are endemicing so vaccinated people will escape quarantine or send to vaccinated camps so we can be safe.

Most vaccinated people do care about Covid, they care enough about it to get vaccinated, wear masks, etc. The unvaccinated are potentially putting people at risk as they are more likely to be infected and have a greater chance of transmitting the virus as well.

People who are immunocompromised might actually be at serious risk from the unvaccinated as well.

[sapator]

I'm amazed you took the time to answer to that. I should be putting a note at the end or a smiley or something.

But since you did,
Finally people do get that vaccinated can spread also, it took me a couple of pages and bashing from the opposite side but it was worth the wait.
I personally see vaccinated to be cautious at some rate to be frank, but the same goes for the uncaccinated, guess it depends on the idiosyncrasy of the countries.
No anti vax rhetoric is not about covid, it's about the vaccine. Vaccine are on temporary license except the pfiser that is only approved on the US FDA.
No there are not more likely to be infected they have the same chance.

Anyhow all these will endem away probably.

[PlausiblyDamp]

Vaccine are on temporary license except the pfiser that is only approved on the US FDA.
No there are not more likely to be infected they have the same chance.

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/2277...-lower-double/
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...ed-people.html
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...-effectiveness
https://www.healthline.com/health-ne...ure-vaccinated
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/10/brea...get-covid.html

They seem to be disagreeing with you about having the same chance. Vaccines make you less likely to a) be infected, and b) reduce the severity if you are infected.

[Shaggy Hiker]

I guess I'll jump in on that, too. If the problem in Idaho was the vaccinated not taking precautions, then we'd see about 60% taking precautions, because only 40% are vaccinated. That's not what I see. It's roughly 5-10% that wear masks, and most of them are required to by their employers. For the general public, I think it's down around 5% in most stores.

So, in the case of this state, it's EVERYBODY. Those of us who are vaccinated could probably do better, but those who are not vaccinated are ignoring this just as readily.

What I'd be interested in finding out is who the people wearing masks are? Are they vaccinated? Immuno-compromised? Something else?

My strategy is essentially to stay home, aside from a weekly shopping trip. I'm in one of the categories that Dilettante mentioned, since I have a beard. For me, wearing a mask is little more than a social statement, because it does very little. It redirects my exhales downwards, but I doubt it filters much of anything on inhalation.

[sapator]

Oh I can do that also:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-v...-unvaccinated/
https://apnews.com/article/science-h...5ca012b5ef84d1
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....31.21261387v1
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/s...d-delta-easily
https://www.news-medical.net/news/20...a-variant.aspx

And since I was right on Delta be less mortal and vaccinated people can spread (caution here, you where claiming that they cannot spread at all, remember?), I think I'm on good reliability.
So in Greece I kinda see everyone in masks inside, so I cannot tell apart which is which and for that matter it's 50-50 chance here and since unvaxed cannot enter clubs and restaurants and stadiums and gigs, I can safely say that the vaxbies are doing all the work. In US a reporter from Texas, Greek but living there said what Shaggy said. So it's probably US everyone infects, Greece all with precautions but vaxbies going to crowded places will infect.

[wes4dbt]

I'm amazed you took the time to answer to that. I should be putting a note at the end or a smiley or something.

You think it's appropriate to make jokes and spread misinformation about a virus that has killed 5,000,000 people and hospitalized far more? I don't.

[TysonLPrice]

I've been working from home since the outbreak. My company notified us it will not even consider bringing us back until 2022. Then it will be something along the lines you have to come in two or three times a month for "collaboration" days. The mangers have some leeway on that. I'm really spoiled now...I love working from home.

I haven't seen anything about "mandatory" yet but the business the company is in is health care. One piece is Bureau of Worker's compensation Claims. I just had to modify some applications to add a "Covid" indicator. Up to a certain point the Bureau will pay Covid claims and then not. Something to do with how the money was allotted. I'm just a coder...

[Shaggy Hiker]

Yeah, I'm loving this working from home thing. COVID is just an excuse for me, by this point. I think I've done about as much as I can, to no avail. Still, not driving for a week or two is sure nice.

[TysonLPrice]

Yeah, I'm loving this working from home thing. COVID is just an excuse for me, by this point. I think I've done about as much as I can, to no avail. Still, not driving for a week or two is sure nice.

This just came out on CNN about Idaho:

https://www.newsweek.com/idaho-docto...n-high-1639005

[Shaggy Hiker]

Did you notice that they had to use a picture from LA to show people wearing masks and a store that mandated it? Won't find that in Idaho.

[dilettante]

Most stores here in Michigan still require masks unless fully vaccinated, but so far nobody is checking for proof on entry.

It's all a bit dicey with Delta ramping up here. I try to go shopping only at long intervals to reduce trips. Even then I try to go late when there are fewer customers, then get in and get out quickly. Even better might be to go as soon as they open in the morning after cleaning and airing out, or at least letting all the spew settle to the floors.

One odd news item on the radio today: Epidemic of lying. Turns out people really do respond to shaming, but the response is to lie and fake. They'll falsely claim vaccination and/or be found with a mask under the chin, in their pocket, or none at all. I guess the dog ate it.