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Thread: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

  1. #3641
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Shaggy, have you ever protested? From your saying you haven't and that is fine but don't get into quantity measurements here.
    I'm sure a LOT of people are not glad of going out in the very highly possibility (99,9% in Greece) to get sprayed with chemicals or beaten with globs. If we where counting quantities then I don't think any protest would ever made any difference.
    I would gladly agree with wes that some protests are idiotic but everyone has the right to do so but again there is no quantity vs population. And let me say something else here, if the protesters are so few, how about a referendum? A referendum on if we want the lockdown and the mandatory vaccination? I'm sure no government got the guts to do so.
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  2. #3642
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    NO

    But I am glad we have people willing to protest. Though I thoroughly disagree with these people. But we need people willing to spend time and energy protesting against governmental/corporate decisions. I hate to think what this world would be like if these agencies went unchallenged.
    That's true. The direction of the world is the sum of the vectors of all the people tugging in different directions on different things and with different force. If enough tug in the same direction, the world will move that way. If they do not, it won't. Of course, it's vectors, so the direction the world moves may not be in the direction that any one individual wanted, but that's how it goes.

    What I don't agree with is that protest necessarily means that the policy is wrong. That seems to be the point with talking about anti-vaccine protests: It's trying to say that the people are opposed to this policy.

    No, there are SOME people opposed, but most are not.
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  3. #3643
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    And let me say something else here, if the protesters are so few, how about a referendum? A referendum on if we want the lockdown and the mandatory vaccination? I'm sure no government got the guts to do so.
    That would be great.

    It would probably have to be somebody other than the US, though. We don't really DO referendums. There are official referendum-like questions that show up on ballots, but the rules around them differ from state to state, and as far as I know, they are ONLY in conjunction with a regular election. We also know a fair amount about our elections, so if you want a meaningful referendum, you'd have to find a state that allows it, jump through the hoops that are required, and not hold it until 2024.

    I'm sure others can do better.

    If you are wondering why the US has such difficulty with referendums, I don't know for sure, but I think the reason is due to a part of our messed up politics. Ballot measures are used to force through a rule that the legislature won't put forwards on their own. A referendum could be a non-binding ballot measure, but I don't know that such a thing has ever happened, or even could, these days. After all, if the typical ballot measure is going to force the legislature to do something they clearly don't want to do, and the legislature can change the rules for how a ballot measure gets on the ballot...it shouldn't surprise you as to what happens.

    For example, Idaho is a pretty right wing state. When the Affordable Care Act extended medicare to more people, states had to opt in. Republican states tended not to, and Idaho was one of them. Some people got a ballot measure on one of the recent ballots (2020, I think) about opting in. It passed very strongly. The legislature bellyached about it, but one of the first things they did was to pass a bill that would have made it virtually impossible to get a ballot measure on the ballot, because it would have required getting a large number of signatures from EVERYWHERE in the state, which would have required any measure to be strongly supported in all districts, and also required enough organization to get people collecting signatures in all those districts, including the super rural ones where finding people can be tough. It would have eliminated ballot measures, but it got rejected by either the governor or the courts (I forget).

    So, we don't do referendums because we've made it mighty hard to do ballot measures, in general, and a referendum would be a ballot measure, even if it was written to be non-binding.

    I'd love to see one, though. I'm probably about as curious as you are as to what it would show. I suppose we could probably use vaccination rates as a surrogate to an actual referendum in the US. Some states have high rates, some states have low rates. That's probably how the referendum would come out, as well. I can't think of a good surrogate to mask mandates, though.
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  4. #3644
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    A referendum should be for something serious like food portions not for something that is already illegal if it goes through (mandatory medical acts p.e.) .
    But, OK, bring it on. The same went on Greece a couple of years ago on, if we want in or out out of the EU. We voted out and our other traitor prime minister did not go along with it. From there forth they don't do referendums because they know how they will go. Do dictatorships do referendums? I think not.
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    In Ohio something like 76% of voters voted to end gerrymandering. They, republicans but it could have been democrats, just came out with the maps. They ignored the voters. It is going to court.
    Please remember next time...elections matter!

  6. #3646
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Ye I mean you either be prepared to accept a referendum or not. You can't ignore it.
    The opposite happened to UK with them leaving the EU. People did not like the outcome and they tried to get another one on top of the original.
    Hopefully by now they should be happy that they went out of this thing that once was EU.
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  7. #3647
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    It seems lke you could make the case either way
    My (entirely uneducated) understanding is that it depends on which vaccine you're getting. Some of them get squished by a strong immune system, others trigger a reaction from that immune system.

    Got my booster shot yesterday.
    I've just become eligible but I'm still nursing a stinky headcold so I'm holding off booking until that clears.

    But I am glad we have people willing to protest. Though I thoroughly disagree with these people. But we need people willing to spend time and energy protesting against governmental/corporate decisions. I hate to think what this world would be like if these agencies went unchallenged.
    +1. To paraphrase Voltaire, I disapprove of what they're saying, but I will defend to the death their right to say it.

    how about a referendum?
    I can't help feeling this would be problematic. The set of people willing to stand in a queue and vote probably corelates more closely with the set of people who are anti-lockdown than it does with the set of people who are pro-lockdown... what with the referendum being held during a lockdown. Unless you allow mail in voting, of course, at which point I guaran-damn-tee the anti-lockdowners will accuse the referendum of being "stolen", because that's a thing now.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Nov 23rd, 2021 at 06:33 AM.
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    Ye I mean you either be prepared to accept a referendum or not. You can't ignore it.
    The opposite happened to UK with them leaving the EU. People did not like the outcome and they tried to get another one on top of the original.
    Hopefully by now they should be happy that they went out of this thing that once was EU.
    The problem with the UK Brexit referendum was that it was run as a non-binding referendum and then the result was written into law anyway. If it had been run as a binding referendum the result wouldn't have been accepted because of problems with how it was run (funding, campaigning etc) not being legal for a binding referendum.

    Not a lot to be happy about either, not many (if any( of the promised benefits have been delivered on. Don't remember the referendum promising higher petrol costs, lack of lorry drivers, turning parts of the countryside into lorry parks, lack of seasonal workers, loss of business in the financial sector, loss of talented people in the sciences, inability for artists and musicians to travel freely, certainly no extra money for the NHS, loss of trade with the EU, supermarket shortages, etc. Don't even get started on the Irish Border issue and our pathetic attempts to renege on a deal we wrote, approved, and hailed as the greatest thing ever.

  9. #3649
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post

    I can't help feeling this would be problematic. The set of people willing to stand in a queue and vote probably corelates more closely with the set of people who are anti-lockdown than it does with the set of people who are pro-lockdown... what with the referendum being held during a lockdown. Unless you allow mail in voting, of course, at which point I guaran-damn-tee the anti-lockdowners will accuse the referendum of being "stolen", because that's a thing now.
    The only time we had more than 60% of people voting for something was the get the heck out of EU referendum.
    It way WAAAY higher than the election attendance.
    Also if this was for the lockdown, trust me everyone would have voted NO and the attendance would be over 80%. But it will never happen with those fascists in government.
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  10. #3650
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    I'd love to see one, though. I'm probably about as curious as you are as to what it would show. I suppose we could probably use vaccination rates as a surrogate to an actual referendum in the US. Some states have high rates, some states have low rates. That's probably how the referendum would come out, as well. I can't think of a good surrogate to mask mandates, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    In Ohio something like 76% of voters voted to end gerrymandering. They, republicans but it could have been democrats, just came out with the maps. They ignored the voters. It is going to court.
    That's what happens when you put up something for a vote expecting it to go one way and it doesn't. Something similar happened here with our local school board. People kept showing up to meetings asking for mask mandates, others were opposed to it. At the meetings it's heavily against mask mandates in the schools. The board then also says "but the Governor has threatened to take away funding if we implement a mandate in the schools." Meanwhile we have one of the highest rates of infections at the schools, while the other districts around us gave the Governor the middle finger and did a mandate anyways, and are doing fine. So they thought they would be smart, and decided to do a survey of parents to see what we really want ... it came back overwhelmingly for a mandate of some kind. Like 85% in favor. They didn't expect that. I think they expected it to go the other way, so that they could then say "See? This is what you parents want." But it backfired, so they then ignored the results and still refuse to put any policy in place... meanwhile.... sigh... we still have the highest rates among children in the local area. There was one point where some 20% of one school with kids out related to covid. That's pretty substantial.

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  11. #3651
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    That's the problem with democracy: The people refuse to vote the way they are supposed to.
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  12. #3652
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Nah, you can always rig the elections with electronic votes.
    I think that is why our prime idiot went to US, to get the know how...
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  13. #3653
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    He won't find it here, I think everybody is using two step paper ballots, by now. You do use a machine to make your selections, with big bold buttons that are easy for elderly fingers and elderly eyes. That results in a printed ballot that shows your selections. The printed ballot is then run through a scanner to read it into a second machine, and retained as a hard copy record of the vote.

    I'm not sure that everybody is using such a system, but since Idaho tends to lag behind, I would guess that most are ahead of us.

    Mighty hard to rig that one. Yes, you get an electronic count very fast, but you also have the hard copy ballot, which the voter can read after it has been printed, as a backup for hand counting and recounts.
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    That's the problem with democracy: The people refuse to vote the way they are supposed to.
    I refer you to the quote in my sig (no, not Inferrd's). Although another of Winnie's quotes is apt: "Democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time"
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  15. #3655
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    I wonder how hard Dominion is actually pushing it's lawsuits. I hope they follow thru, there was a lot of damage done when these people were spreading the rigged voting machine lie. It seems important to me that the lie is acknowledged in a way that will discourage such behavior. I don't think it would stop political lies/misrepresentations. But there needs to be some accountability for trying to undermine voter confidence with completely unfounded lies. Especially since many people are willing to believe anything if to suits their desired results.

  16. #3656
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    He won't find it here, I think everybody is using two step paper ballots, by now. You do use a machine to make your selections, with big bold buttons that are easy for elderly fingers and elderly eyes. That results in a printed ballot that shows your selections. The printed ballot is then run through a scanner to read it into a second machine, and retained as a hard copy record of the vote.

    I'm not sure that everybody is using such a system, but since Idaho tends to lag behind, I would guess that most are ahead of us.

    Mighty hard to rig that one. Yes, you get an electronic count very fast, but you also have the hard copy ballot, which the voter can read after it has been printed, as a backup for hand counting and recounts.
    I saw that here in Ohio in the last election; a month or so ago.
    Please remember next time...elections matter!

  17. #3657
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    https://www.eac.gov/election-officia...bsentee-voting

    But anyhow, if you can't provide him with a secure cheating election mechanism then you are not trustworthy.
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.


  19. #3659
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Hahahahahahahahaha!!
    That's what I like about dil.
    Thanks.
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  20. #3660
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    And we're all doomed again. Heavily mutated variant emerging in Southampton with 5 times as many mutations as the Delta variant.

    In particular, note the following sentence: "This level of mutation has most likely come from a single patient who was unable to beat the virus." So we now have variant against which our current vaccines are likely to be ineffective. This didn't need to happen if we didn't have unprotected portions of the population providing incubation chambers for this thing. If the forum allowed profanity I could express my frustration at those of you who won't vaccinate.
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  21. #3661
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    so, now a new covid strain showed up. vaccinated are "spreading" this around, since they have this "false safety" they think everything is good.
    the problem is that covid mutates all the time, like a normal flu, its always evolving, and it will evolve even more with the vaccines we have now, those are not effective against mutations.
    government need to stop believing in big pharma, they of course have a "economical" perspective. everything is about grow and profit.
    instead they should put research into immune-boosting methods (something big pharma will never want to do, its contra-productive and will eventually lead to no profit)
    as long they are not changing tactics covid will never end. and its the people that will suffer.

  22. #3662
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Guess you meant SouthAfrica...

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    This didn't need to happen if we didn't have unprotected portions of the population providing incubation chambers for this thing.
    If the forum allowed profanity I could express my frustration at those of you who won't vaccinate.
    Cannot believe this un-informedness is still going on here...

    It's not the un-vaccinated which "circulate and breed" the virus these days - it's the vaccinated people who are allowed "free mingling".

    Please look at Denmark (one of the countries with the highest vacc-rate in europe):
    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/c...e?country=~DNK

    Due to that vacc-rate they introduced a "normal life again"-policy (free mingling for everybody) a few months ago.

    Now look at the infection-rates last month (I've included germany, which allowed with "2G" a quite similar "untested mingling" of the vaccinated):
    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/b...ountry=DEU~DNK

    I'm quite sure the discovery of this new mutant comes as a relief to many politicians,
    who now have a convenient "reason" to justify new lockdowns ...
    (without the need for vindication of their own wrong decisions).

    Olaf

  23. #3663
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    its always evolving
    No, it evolves as it infects, hence "who was unable to beat the virus". If infection were brought down it could not evolve.

    Guess you meant SouthAfrica...
    Oops, yes. I used to live in Southampton so I guess that was just muscle memory infecting my fingers.

    Cannot believe this un-informedness is still going on here
    Yours is not an argument against vaccination, it's an argument in favour of social distancing measures (which I would support). Your argument rests on a logical fallacy.
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    Yours is not an argument against vaccination...
    I was not making an argument "against vaccination" ...
    (vaccination makes sense for a whole lot of people - especially for the elderly).

    I was making an argument against the common misconception,
    that it is the un-vaccinated who are the main-spreaders, when the opposite is the case in the meantime (in most european countries).

    That's due to wrong political decisions, which outright encouraged the "mingling of the vaccinated" in most european countries
    (to give a kind of "incentive" for the "still un-vacced").

    If you think, that Denmarks or Germanys current infection-curves would look any different
    (assuming a hypothetical vaccination-rate of 100%), then you are sorely mistaken...

    The current vaccines are "leaking"!
    They "slow down" the spreading (but not much, when mingling is allowed) - they do not prevent it!

    As long as this is not understood, the whole story will continue to go on and on...

    Olaf

  25. #3665
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    its part truth,
    the virus will evolve randomly and more u give it chance to stay inside your body, more time it has to change.
    and we have 2 different people that gives the virus time:

    - people with low immune system
    - vaccinated people

    the latter, is because the vaccine is actually "not" killing it. the virus is there.
    and it will be there, infecting others and also "randomly" trying to infect the host, and if successful, its called "mutation".
    since you believe you are immortal with your vaccine, there will be a big chance you infect someone else, since you are not careful.
    you want to live your life and believe in the lies of the politicians and big pharma.
    you pay for a certificate or you get a covidpass, you travel and you spread the virus, meanwhile older people and with low immune system dies, that is beneficial for the economy.

    the one to blame are the vaccinated people, that are not understanding they are doing harm, and of course the politicians and big pharma that are playing with your life.

  26. #3666
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    It's for debate where vaccine or not will sprout mutations. I'm on the vaccine will do it side but I won't go on arguing, especially with a pal on whether it's true or not.
    Even if it's true there is no chance in the world for everyone to vaccinate, some have medical issues, like me, some are against it because freedom will dictate, some have no available source to it, so it is what it is, mutations will keep coming and that is not necessary a bad thing as from the beginning of medical observation of the covid viruses they tend to be less lethal, but , if you really want to call some words on the unvaccinted you can bash me all you want, I won't go report it back to you

    I just want to report again that we are on total lockdown on the non vaxed here. I can't go nowhere, except supermarkets and pharmacies without a rapid test on the few places that we can go.
    But the cases are going higher and higher. What is the logical conclusion here? Unvaccinated are locked and vaccinated can do whatever they like. Cases run wild...So?
    Last edited by sapator; Nov 26th, 2021 at 11:04 AM. Reason: a mod invaded my mind and told me to edit.Booo!
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  27. #3667
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by baka View Post
    its part truth,
    the virus will evolve randomly and more u give it chance to stay inside your body, more time it has to change.
    and we have 2 different people that gives the virus time:

    - people with low immune system
    - vaccinated people
    Why do you think that? I agree with the first one, but the second one is irrational, unless you believe that the point of vaccination is to make a safe home for the virus.

    The only thing a vaccine does is give your body a head start at recognizing, and attacking, any virus that has shown up. The unvaccinated aren't better protected, they're just slower, so why would being slower to respond mean that the virus has less time?


    the latter, is because the vaccine is actually "not" killing it. the virus is there.
    Why is that NOT happening in the unvaccinated? In fact, it IS happening in the vaccinated, it just has more time.

    Ultimately, a vaccine isn't like an antibiotic. It's your own immune system that clears the virus. If you have the vaccine, then your immune system is already primed to attack the virus. If you aren't vaccinated, it takes a few days for your system to even recognize there's a threat. Therefore, the unvaccinated are much more effective at allowing the virus to mutate simply because they are much better incubators.
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  28. #3668
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    It's for debate where vaccine or not will sprout mutations. I'm on the vaccine will do it side but I won't go on arguing, especially with a pal on whether it's true or not.
    Even if it's true there is no chance in the world for everyone to vaccinate, some have medical issues, like me, some are against it because freedom will dictate, some have no available source to it, so it is what it is, mutations will keep coming and that is not necessary a bad thing as from the beginning of medical observation of the covid viruses they tend to be less lethal, but , if you really want to call some words on the unvaccinted you can bash me all you want, I won't go report it back to you

    I just want to report again that we are on total lockdown on the non vaxed here. I can't go nowhere, except supermarkets and pharmacies without a rapid test on the few places that we can go.
    But the cases are going higher and higher. What is the logical conclusion here? Unvaccinated are locked and vaccinated can do whatever they like. Cases run wild...So?
    You've got a point there, but I'm not sure that there's a viable alternative. It seems like we have two extreme positions that might work (depending on how you define work):

    1) The China model: Lock everybody down and do so with utter aggressiveness.
    2) Do nothing at all and live or die with it.

    The first model is currently struggling, but might work. They are dealing with hundreds of cases, and if those get away from it, option #1 will have failed. Of course option #1 would also destroy the economy, and it's not at all clear that most of the world could follow them. It certainly wouldn't be possible in the US.

    The second model will result in significant damage, which will give economists and sociologists something to write papers about for decades. In fact, one side effect could be an increase in economist PhDs, which is a consequence that few would be happy with. But not to make too light of it, there are a couple drawbacks to that approach. The first is that it would be several decades before COVID wasn't a significant killer in the world. It would be more like the common cold with a far greater mortality rate and much more significant side effects. Eventually, that would die down to a more tolerable level, but there is no reason to expect that not to take decades, and it is possible that it would never really happen. After all, the flu kills a few tens of thousands each year in this country. COVID might die down to just that: A major killer of the elderly and immunocompromised.

    Between those two extremes, what is there? One position between the two extremes is vaccination. It's pretty clear that people don't understand how vaccines work, or how our immune system works, but it's also clear that vaccinating EVERYBODY simply isn't going to happen. Even where the vaccines are available, they won't be adopted by a large portion of the population...without force, and that would be no better than the China model.

    So, what alternative do you propose?
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  29. #3669
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    You won't like what I propose so instead of that let's say for the point of argument that I agree with you and we must vaccinate everyone.

    Can we get into our heads that the initial vaccines and I don't see any official paper from a company, are the same ones yet?
    So we are doing vaccines that where good against Alpha but mostly do nothing or almost nothing for the new variants.

    The model in Greece and other countries proves that vaccinated people sprout the flue like crazy and come to a 3-4 months limited effect. So the particular vaccines is like doing water shots.
    Are we OK this far?
    Again, I'm saying that for the sake of the conversation I agree to vaccinate everyone.

    So we have a couple of solutions:
    A) Create new formula vaccines the will kill Delta.
    That will just (as we have learned from the viruses) work, at the point that a new mutation will arise.
    B)Vaccinate everyone with the already given formula. Pointless also we can't do it for everyone etc as I said before.
    C)Monoclonal. These a expensive so even if we save a few, the others will overtake.
    D)Lockdown.Yeah that helped a lot.
    E)There are drugs already approved by the EU but as V.P. of the EU Margaritis (the obedient dog) Schinas admitted, they will not give them out until they are finish with the billion vaccine doses they have ordered.
    F)Force the medical companies to give out the formula so we can improve it. It would be a cold day in hell that this will happen.First the profit, second we will see how they make them and possible, gooo, ughhh like this is so discustinggg ya knoooww?
    F)The one you won't like and will ignite the forum again.
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  30. #3670
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    yeah. the mRNA is like a shortcut, will trigger the cells to create a protein that looks like the virus, and doing so it will trigger a immune-response as something is there (if you are unlucky it will also trigger an auto-immune response but thats another talk)

    you think that this is good. and it is most of the time.
    but not always. especially not viruses that mutates. like a flu.

    theres a reason why you get a fever. its part of the immune system, while you have an elevated temperature, the immune-system is working,
    of course if the fever is not going down after 1-2 weeks, it will start to take its toll.

    during that time the body is learning and it will create an arsenal of protection against the virus and for the future.
    that is why, if you recovered from covid, it will last longer and it will also protect against "more" variations (source from a swedish study)

    that is why a vaccine last 1½-6 months depending on age and health, while recovered did have antibodies after 1 year (from that study, and still a good amount) so not sure how long that will last.
    so, vaccine is false safety. and the immune-system did not do the whole-process, that is needed to "learn" and "get stronger".

    the same is also infected that didnt show any symptoms. never gave the immune-system enough time to build.

    antibodies are like small keys. they insert themselves into cells, blocking the virus to enter. you could say that antibodies are dead viruses that infect the cells with nothing expect taking the spot.
    the virus will still be inside your body, up to 3 months until its all gone.

    the reason why Im saying vaccinated are at fault is:
    - they are protected. but how long? and how strong?
    - if they get infected again, they dont know, the virus can be there up to 3 months.
    - when the protection is starting to disappear, and they get infected again, its at that moment you are fatal against everybody else (without knowing since they believe they are protected)
    - while protected, at least with the antibodies, the rest of the immune-system is not powerful enough against covid. thats when covid gets a chance to find other ways to infect you.

  31. #3671
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Among other reasons that I'm against vaccination is this:
    Health minister suggests fourth vaccine dose amid rising fears of fifth COVID wave
    https://www.timesofisrael.com/health...th-covid-wave/

    You are becoming a junkie and let's be frank, it will never ever ever going to end as these kind of viruses mutate but we have learned to live with them. It's called endemic endemic endemic (yep 3 times) and if you just keep vaccinating, especially if you are in a non danger population zone, either age or enough anti bodies then I wash my hands on you.
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  32. #3672
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    The opportunity to curb this was squandered a long time ago. International travel should have been banned and urban centers ringed in by blowing up airports, highways, rail, and bridges. Instead we have swarms of diseased bees breeding and carrying variant strains around the planet, pooping it along the way as they roam.

  33. #3673
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    ... travel should have been banned and
    urban centers ringed in by blowing up airports, highways, rail, and bridges.
    Instead we have swarms of diseased bees breeding and carrying...
    LOL, guess at a certain age "violence-rants" become a thing...

    Reminds me of:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5H-NctipBvg
    or this one:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDO6HV6xTmI

    Olaf

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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.


  35. #3675
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    You won't like what I propose so instead of that let's say for the point of argument that I agree with you and we must vaccinate everyone.
    Actually, I would like to hear what you propose. I don't see a good solution, so I'd be interested in hearing any other solution. Vaccinating everybody would be great, but it's also clearly not possible. The new drugs that are likely to be approved in the next month or two provide another option (I hadn't read the lastest on them when I wrote those last posts), and I think there's a third that isn't ready to go to trials, yet.
    Can we get into our heads that the initial vaccines and I don't see any official paper from a company, are the same ones yet?
    So we are doing vaccines that where good against Alpha but mostly do nothing or almost nothing for the new variants.
    I don't think I understand the first question, but based on the second sentence, what I think you mean is: The vaccines were developed against the initial strain, and aren't useful against the delta variant (the others seem to be insignificant), or possibly the newer one from South Africa that Funky mentioned. If you meant that the vaccine isn't effective against delta, I don't agree with that. As for the newer one...well, we'll just have to wait and see, but the mRNA vaccines can be changed as fast as the virus changes. What we clearly can't do is get vaccines out the door fast enough, and in sufficient quantities, for them to be the total solution.


    A) Create new formula vaccines the will kill Delta.
    I hope you don't mean that, because it would indicate that you don't understand what a vaccine is. Based on some of the posts in this thread, I'm not sure what some people understand about vaccines and what they don't. Vaccines don't kill viruses, and never have. They aren't antibiotics and don't act like them.
    B)Vaccinate everyone with the already given formula. Pointless also we can't do it for everyone etc as I said before.
    Not pointless, but I agree that we can't do it for everyone.
    C)Monoclonal. These a expensive so even if we save a few, the others will overtake.
    Yeah, I agree.
    D)Lockdown.Yeah that helped a lot.
    Worked for China, thus far, but nobody else could do what China did without creating total civil war, so, yeah, I agree with you there.
    F)Force the medical companies to give out the formula so we can improve it. It would be a cold day in hell that this will happen.First the profit, second we will see how they make them and possible, gooo, ughhh like this is so discustinggg ya knoooww?
    Surprise!! That is already happening with these new drugs from Pfizer and Merck that have proven to be so highly effective if taken (in pill form, which is the solution US citizens want for everything) within the first three to five days of symptoms showing up. Pfizer doesn't even have approval, yet, but have licensed the manufacturing out to other countries such that when approval comes through, manufacturing can ramp up overnight.

    F)The one you won't like and will ignite the forum again.
    The only one I think you left out was, "ignore it and hope for the best." I don't think that would ignite much of anything.
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  36. #3676
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmidt View Post
    LOL, guess at a certain age "violence-rants" become a thing...

    Reminds me of:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5H-NctipBvg
    or this one:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDO6HV6xTmI

    Olaf
    I'm beginning to think that nobody on here is young anymore.
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  37. #3677
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by baka View Post
    antibodies are like small keys. they insert themselves into cells, blocking the virus to enter. you could say that antibodies are dead viruses that infect the cells with nothing expect taking the spot.
    the virus will still be inside your body, up to 3 months until its all gone.
    Mostly they are small keys that grab onto the virus itself and prevent it from binding to the cell, but either way would work. The mRNA vaccines are creating spike protein such that the antibodies are recognizing that, and binding onto that, not onto the cell protein that the spike protein binds to. That wouldn't be good.

    One of the alternate solutions that is in the works would bind to a much smaller part of the virus. The spike protein is a sheath that covers up the protein that actually binds to the cell. That's the part that is mutating, but it is normally hidden in the sheath. Going after just that binding protein is looking like a viable solution that might not require a shot. It wouldn't be a vaccine, because it wouldn't be triggering the body to create antibodies, but would just attach to the binding protein and stop it from doing anything else. That's not on the market, yet, though, or even in human trials, as far as I know.
    the reason why Im saying vaccinated are at fault is:
    - they are protected. but how long? and how strong?
    Yeah, but so what. Some vaccines confer lifelong immunity, others last less than a year. We live with all kinds. The key is understanding the profile of THIS vaccine.
    - if they get infected again, they dont know, the virus can be there up to 3 months.
    - when the protection is starting to disappear, and they get infected again, its at that moment you are fatal against everybody else (without knowing since they believe they are protected)
    I haven't heard the three month thing, but it seems likely for those who are immunocompromised. For the average person, I would guess it's more like a week. You also aren't fatal against anybody. You aren't MORE dangerous than anybody else who has the virus, you are just less likely to know that you have it. If they also get it and don't know, then so what? If a virus infects you and does no damage, does it matter?

    So, you are dangerous only to those who aren't vaccinated or are otherwise vulnerable, but what practical impact does that have? Being unvaccinated isn't better, aside from that fact that there is a chance you could die, and therefore not infect anybody, or that you could become so horribly sick that everybody knew to stay away, but this virus makes you infectious for days before symptoms appear, so neither of those advantages are statistically significant.
    - while protected, at least with the antibodies, the rest of the immune-system is not powerful enough against covid. thats when covid gets a chance to find other ways to infect you.
    If COVID doesn't get into the cell, it can't mutate. However, this argument has the same problem as the rest: Unvaccinated is still worse than vaccinated, whether or not this is true.
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  38. #3678
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post


    Surprise!! That is already happening with these new drugs from Pfizer and Merck that have proven to be so highly effective if taken (in pill form, which is the solution US citizens want for everything) within the first three to five days of symptoms showing up. Pfizer doesn't even have approval, yet, but have licensed the manufacturing out to other countries such that when approval comes through, manufacturing can ramp up overnight.
    .
    If they are giving out the formula , that I doubt, then you should go with that solution. I'm sure the pill won't prove as effective as the vaccines against delta (I want to correct myself also when I said "kill", that was unintentional), let alone omicron (next if Zeta to the Greek cal) and we will be off the covid .
    I'm betting that the whole vaccine sprout will end when they sell the last one and start giving medication,as, again, EU Margaritis (the obedient dog) Schinas admitted, they will not give them out until they are finish with the billion vaccine doses they have ordered.
    Again, EU Margaritis (the obedient dog) Schinas admitted, they will not give them out until they are finish with the billion vaccine doses they have ordered.
    Again, EU Margaritis (the obedient dog) Schinas admitted, they will not give them out until they are finish with the billion vaccine doses they have ordered.
    ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ
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  39. #3679
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Yeah, let's see:

    Cost of one dose of Pfizer vaccine: $150-200.
    Cost of projected five day course of Paxlovid (not yet on the market): $700.
    Result of either one: You don't die of COVID, but can spread it.
    Width of the average grin on Pfizer executives if you opt for the pill over the vaccine: 21.5 inches.
    Width of the average mouth of Pfizer executive: 3.75 inches.
    Amount of conditioning needed for Pfizer executives to be able to speak again after you choose the pill over the vaccine: 4.72 Jaggers.

    So, yeah, I have no doubt that the pill will be EAGERLY pushed, considering the profit margin could be twice as great, or more.
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  40. #3680
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Lol.
    Well I would expect to unload all the already made vaccines before the pill.Unload till it get's to the point of an overload. Basic market strategies. Basic corporate market strategies that they don't give a fluk about peoples health.
    And here is something to considered:
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/pfizer-...riant-omicron/
    "Pfizer testing its vaccine against new COVID-19 strain"
    So i think the 'grin' should wait for a while.
    ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ
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