Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Trump was pro Turkey because he never met an autocrat he didn't like. That's nothing new, of course. If you follow his whole life, it's been about appearing to be, and also therefore worshipping, strong men. They didn't have to be nice. In fact, it was a bit better if they weren't. It's also why he eventually shafted anybody who did anything for him.

I was a bit sorry about that pillow guy. Pillows are interesting. Such a simple thing, but so terribly complicated at the same time. Everybody appears to have a preference, some more strongly held than others. I don't have much of a preference, so I've looked around at a variety of different pillows over the years to try to figure out what works best for me. What I'm currently using would likely be classified as, "really weird". Not exactly soft or hard, somewhat flat, and totally lumpy. For that reason, I feel that I could do better, but since I don't really know what I like, it's hard to evaluate pillows. I didn't know anything about that guy's politics, but I found plenty to dislike about the pillows.

[sapator]

what is a pillow guy???? Sleepy Jo? Is that a reference?
Anyhow Trump was in construct business with some of Erdogan cousin or best man or something, I can't recall...Well at least we had Melania to look at

[Shaggy Hiker]

He sells pillows. Some specialty pillow that he says is better than the average pillow, but...I wasn't impressed. Of course, pillows tend to be really a matter of personal taste. I think his might be for those who like high volume, thick, pillows.

[sapator]

Ah,OK the pillow switcherou, I think we had it coming one way or another. So talking about it , it's a decent hour for a good night sleep...

[sapator]

Hahaha, oooh boy...
FDA wants 55 years to process FOIA request over vaccine data.

https://www.reuters.com/legal/govern...ta-2021-11-18/

[Shaggy Hiker]

Did you read it? It makes sense: The plaintiffs are asking for 329,000 pages, which contain PII and trade data that can't be legally released, so each page has to be processed. They are asking for a limit of 500 pages per month, due to the fact that they only have 10 staff, total, in the office that has to process the request. The courts have found a 500 page per month reasonable, in the past. The rest is just math: At 500 pages per month, how many months will it take to put out 329,000 pages?

The headline is sensational, but when you read the article, it does make sense. What would you prefer as an alternative? Should they just release information that they are not legally allowed to release, or would you like to require that they hire a LOT more people for this specific request, then lay them off, or should they pull in people from all over the agency and off whatever they are currently doing, for this one request?

[sapator]

Are you FK kidding me?
You can't be serious! This is a spam, you are spamming me!
I suggest you go to a forum on the database development and ask (probably yourself) , how fast or slow 329,000 pages of data can be parsed.
If the answer is 55 years, we all need to hung our self and change profession.
Sometimes I'm wondering what you guys are drinking over there because i think it's powerful stuff and I would like some too!!
55....55....55 years! I can't wait to see what those pages will reveal in..55 years....55. 5 o 5 . 55.. and now backwards .. 55 .. Op let's turn it correct now... 55 . 5.5.5.555.555554mkldfgldflgmkdfgmkl godaaammmmmitttttttttttttttttt!

You did that on purpose that and the pillow. I had a very hard day at work and you threw a cyber punch in my face so you can amuse yourself. That is not correct man.Not cool!

Let's all collaborate and write a OCR parser that parse and insert data to a database...How long will that take....Yep! 55 years!!
Let's have cyber Moti do the work and "relax" us at the same time. How relaxing we will get to a scale of 1 to 100...Yep,55!
Let's all try to eat as many sausages as possible in 55 minutes. If we eat one per minute how much we will eat...Oh, 55!
Let's all celebrate our favorite uncle birthday...Yes he is turning 55!!
If you have 5 apples and you get another 5, how many apples will you have...Errr, 55!?
If you flip 55 then you can see 22. So 55 is evil.
Our prime nazi is getting close to 55 years of age. Let's party with elections that will make him go to jail for 55 years.



You know our public sector is the worst in all of the globe and the slowest case I've ever heard took 30 years to process.

[Shaggy Hiker]

It's not a question of being parsed. If it were just a matter of consuming and spittting out that number of paper sheets, it would be days at most, and possibly hours, if you had the system. That's not the issue.

In the US, there are laws about what information the government must NOT supply, and this can carry personal criminal liabilities. A large part of that falls under PII (Personally Identifiable Information), which has strict rules. In fact, the rules are more strict than necessarily makes sense, these days. Information that you could likely get from the internet, these days, has to be stored under certain rules, and not given out to pretty nearly anybody. It's a bit of a headache, but the government can't just ignore that law because it's inconvenient.

Beyond PII, there is further information contained in those documents about proprietary business practices. That has to be removed. Otherwise, you have the situation where a company is required to submit confidential information to the regulatory agency in order to get approval, but then any competitor can simply ask for that information...and surprise, no more confidentiality. That would break the system pretty thoroughly.

So, if you know of an automated process that can identify what is PII and what is confidential business practices, by scanning a document, please do tell us.

Furthermore, if you had read the article, you would see that they weren't saying that they would provide nothing for 55 years, then everything all at once. They said they'd provide 500 pages per month, and even suggested that they'd favor the most useful data for the request...which was by a group of people who wanted to counter anti-vaxx misinformation. So, they'd be getting what amounts to a very large book every month, and they'd have to get right to work reading that, because another very large book would be showing up each and every month for the next 55 years.

That would provide a full time occupation for a couple people...and their children.

[sapator]

OMG.
I'll just gracefully put that on my spam list and pretend it did not happen. Let me know when you read the last page.

[Shaggy Hiker]

You mean the one where Siri declined to comment? Yeah, that was amusing. That guy must have all kinds of problems using some electronic scheduling. "Siri, please set up a meeting with Siri."

Let me know when you've read the rest of the article. They could have a point when they stated that this is something that should have already been done in anticipation of the interest there would be, but it wasn't, so that's that. What they are asking for is that the entire 329,000 pages be reviewed and redacted in three months, which means in excess of 100,000 pages per month, one of which is the shortest of the year, and the other two have the most holidays of the year. The staff of the organization is 10 people, so each gets to review 10,000 pages per month looking for PII and confidential information. That's absurd. Could you do it? I sure couldn't, not in compliance with the law.

Did you also overlook the point that the 500 pages per month have been upheld in multiple court decisions already?

Basically, the FDA is highly likely to win this suit based on legal precedent alone, and the plaintiffs are asking for something that is unreasonable. Yes, if they simply ignored their legal obligations, they could shovel all the documents out the door and be done with it, but then they'd be facing a far worse lawsuit, and possibly criminal penalties.

Despite your hyperbolic reaction, I have serious doubts that you actual read the article, and if you did read it, it doesn't appear that you understood it. Here's the summary: A human being with knowledge of the laws on the subject has to review each and every one of 329,000 pages of documents. This is understood by both sides. The FDA is saying that the office fulfilling the request has a staff of 10 people, and they have 400 OTHER requests to process at the same time. The plaintiffs say that the staff of ten can each process 10,000 pages per month in addition to their 400 other requests.

That's not reasonable, and the court will agree.

[sapator]

I've read that due to covid the staff of 10 will be diminished to the staff of 5. How many years will then take?
Just because something seems reasonable (omg again) does not mean that it's logical.
And with that said...Yeah with that said I'm done with that since you are spamming me.

Siri, please set up a meeting with Siri.

The forum had some good times in the past. I think that particular time and with every "stigmatized" member still active it was it's peak. I don't get the pleasure of those days now but it's still fun, as long us we avoid 3 threads here. Yes, the one is the VB thread.

[Shaggy Hiker]

I just did the math. Assuming they still have 10 people, those people would have to process 63 pages per hour for every hour of every working day (no vacations or sick leave allowed) for the next three months....while also working through the other 400 requests that they already have, though they can clearly refuse any subsequent requests that they receive.

Can you do that? That's about 500 pages per day. Take a break and go to some book store that has a technical section. Find a nice, hefty, 500 page tome on whatever computer subject interests you, then read it cover to cover in a single day. You don't have to read every word, but you do have to read it well enough that you know what is contained in each paragraph. That is what you are saying should be possible, so show me that it can be done.

By the way, if you want to make it a bit more real, get a random number generator. For any paragraph that you miss, generate a random number from 1 to 100. If you get a 7, burn your house down. If you get a 12, you just have to torch your car. That would simulate the personal liability of missing a piece that those FDA folk are subject to.

Also, you are misusing the term spam. There isn't a single word that would suffice, but the phrase you are looking for is, "used basic math and understanding of legal precedent and liabilities to show that your position is absurd."

[Shaggy Hiker]

As for the forum, when I started, I was young. Lots of the people who were around at the time were my age or even younger, with a few older folks. Do you remember the thread where people posted their pictures? Not so much grey hair in that thread.

Now, we're all old. The old hands are such because they've been around for a long time...and aged at an equal pace. Some people have come in over the years, and a few are fairly young, but I would guess that the average age in Chit-Chat is at least a decade older than it was when I signed up. The people you are remembering, they're just older.

[sapator]

Now the people reduced to 2.
Spam, the Monty python spam. I think I'm safe saying that.
This remind me of the pencil and pen in space but anyhow.

I remember my first posts replied by JMC and kleinma . J was a little calmer at that time, putting up with my idiotic questions. I also recall a period that I got most of my rep , using asp.net. That time Gep13, prolly the Frog and me where at the top , way before szlamany stating bombarding us with JS
Personally I don't think I've changed much, I believe just a little more polite but that's it.

[wes4dbt]

Also, you are misusing the term spam. There isn't a single word that would suffice, but the phrase you are looking for is, "used basic math and understanding of legal precedent and liabilities to show that your position is absurd."

Yeah spam doesn't fit. I would like to hear a logical response to your answers, instead all we get is spam, spam, spam. But maybe in Greece the Evelyn Wood speed reading coarse is a requirement and there is no such thing as legal liability.

[sapator]

Well look what the cat dr'u'gged in , I was wondering when the rest of the crew will come by. So there is you, and couple of others that probably won't show now so 12-15? 15 for the documeeennnttts, chop chop.
You won't hear a logical response to an illogical act.

Here is the origin spam: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spam_(Monty_Python)

Ah, yeah, of course there is not such a thing in Greece. We only build the fundamentals of the modern law and order. That was very clever you got me there.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Greek-law

Go back to high school , re-educate and then come back with a more clever response......

OK,OK, I was joking. I wanted to hype you up and the smack you down. Not everything must be taken seriously else we will get to...55! And be grumpy!!!....Ok OK ok sorry, I'll stop now....55.....Dammit, I don't know what gotten into me......Fifftttt...No I just spit there fifftttouaahhhh, you know.... 1-2-3-4-5 everybody in the house go fiffftt...Not again....I can't control my hands they are forming circles around the keyboard....Now lines, forming 5.......Stop stop seriously!! I'm terribly sorry about that my uncle has taken the keyboard, my 55 years old unc....OOOOO...Oooo, I'll count backwards, relax and be of with that stupidity...Let's start 56...5....Allas, I really can't...Mmmm, I'm trying so harddd.....O food is here!! Hurricane to the doorrrrr!!!!
(no hard feeling, and don't take every single thing seriously, remember this is chit chat)

[sapator]

55, 55 ,55, 55, 55 , 55

.....Ahhh, ahhh I think I got it out of my system I can eat now.

[sapator]

Sorry , sorry last time a swear.

55, 55 ,55, 55, 55,, 55, 55, 55 ,55 . AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!

Done.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Now the people reduced to 2.
Spam, the Monty python spam. I think I'm safe saying that.
This remind me of the pencil and pen in space but anyhow.

I remember my first posts replied by JMC and kleinma . J was a little calmer at that time, putting up with my idiotic questions. I also recall a period that I got most of my rep , using asp.net. That time Gep13, prolly the Frog and me where at the top , way before szlamany stating bombarding us with JS
Personally I don't think I've changed much, I believe just a little more polite but that's it.

Yeah, but Klienma was YOUNG! You can say the same of Gep, and I think the frog, as well. The forum was populated with a bunch of people who were on either side of thirty, with a few older folks and a few much younger folks. Now, there seem to be only a few regular members who are in that category, and the rest of us are quite a bit older.

I don't feel that I'm much different...except that I am. All the abuses of my youth are catching up to me. My feet hurt, or are numb, a lot of the time, both knees are damaged, along with one shoulder, and I'm using glasses to write this. Lots of those people probably got married, settled down, changed careers, had kids, and so forth. I avoided all of that, but how much of what happened before was because it was a bunch of younger, unsettled folks? In my memory, it was a BIG driver of discussions in Chit-Chat. Whether it was NoteMe's parties, VisualAd and Mendhak escapades, and so on.

The internet was also pretty new, back then. I joined before smart phones, and you joined about the time that smart phones were starting, but before they were a thing. Tablets didn't exist. WiFi was...infrequent, but certainly not ubiquitous, and FaceBook...did it even exist?

We were around when this was a destination, we may or may not be more staid in our old age, but the discussions are because this isn't the only, or best, destination for those kinds of discussions, anymore.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Sorry , sorry last time a swear.

55, 55 ,55, 55, 55,, 55, 55, 55 ,55 . AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!

Done.

One month after my 55th birthday, I can take early retirement, and I might. That's coming up this summer.

[sapator]

55.
Err, sorry.
I enjoyed your previous post about the forum members. I remember what you said about the smartphones as one of my first codebanks was about the windows phone. Little did I know that I was beating a dead horse.
Thankfully I'm still fine in health no issues except the one that preventing the vaccination (not that I would do it) but it does not affect me in any way.
I really re catched up the chit chat on covid times as I started a band so I gave my energy there but the lockdown put us in a stalemate. If music come a way of living in the future I will probably exit the forum gracefully too but for now I', still the thorn on the side of a few here, in a good way I hope. Now that we mention it, I kinda miss Gep, we where side by side on the asp.net thread for a while, hope he is doing OK. Also there was a fellow Greek that went to UK I think worked closely with Si but I can't recall the username. Heavy VB6er back then.

Edit. Manavol or Manovol. I remembered.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Yeah, I remember him.

[wes4dbt]

You won't hear a logical response to an illogical act.

That's what I thought, you got NOTHING. Oh, except complaints and silly jokes. lol

[sapator]

Let's enjoy these moment of nostalgia for a while and we can war out again soon.

[wes4dbt]

Sounds good. I'll rest up while you guys reminisce.

[sapator]

I wonder if it's worth putting out a thread on what everybody is doing these days. But I'm not sure how many will even see the thread, let alone bother to answer.
After all if you just step out of a forum it's difficult to go back. I know as some forums that I where a known member, like acdc-bootlegs, I haven't gone there for years.

[Niya]

What am I reading. Last few posts I have no idea what anyone is talking about lol....I think I need some weed to understand this thread. My sober mind isn't parsing it correctly.

[si_the_geek]

Also there was a fellow Greek that went to UK I think worked closely with Si but I can't recall the username. Heavy VB6er back then.

Edit. Manavol or Manovol. I remembered.

https://www.vbforums.com/member.php?39991-manavo11

He moved to Bristol about 10 years ago, and we met up several times for drinks over the first couple of years... we even had a visit one weekend from the frog gang (mendhak, visualAd, and a few others I can't remember usernames of).

Since then he met a lady, and settled down... seems happy from a quick look on social media.


I've also had the pleasure of meeting a few random forum members over the years (didn't even know their usernames), who all insisted on buying me a drink because I'd helped them on the forums

[sapator]

Oh that is very good to know!
Ye UK does not have the chaotic distances of US so you are more likely to meet. I met him also before he moved to UK, spoke fund of you
All in all I only met him and Funky and possibly another member that I'm forgetting, as Greece is not on the radar (I may have glimpsed 1-2 members from Greece here actually been active in the past). Unfortunately I happen to be in UK for studying before I sign in to the forum so I lost my chance and it's not likely to visit again in the near future.
A frog gang meet would have been very nice.All the ribbit ribbit in the pub
From what I've seen on other local forum meets in the past few years people tend to be a little off from what they come by in the forums but sometimes it's spot on.

[dilettante]

🌽Speak up, Sonny?🎺

[Shaggy Hiker]

A frog gang meet would have been very nice.All the ribbit ribbit in the pub

You certainly don't want to be a fly on the wall for THAT conversation.

[wes4dbt]

Got my booster shot yesterday. No side affects at all this time. Not sure if that's good or bad. lol

My daughter claims that if you have a strong reaction it means you have a strong immune system. Maybe at my age my immune system is on bed rest. lol

[dilettante]

I'm not sure what to think about that. It seems lke you could make the case either way, but if you have decent immunity shouldn't your system zap the new intrustion rather quickly and mildly?

[sapator]

Do a couple of more, just to make sure you are protected
It will probly get to 7 anyhow and then one every year,so...

[sapator]

I was thinking if I should show this as some people here are more stubborn than a pregnant Iguana (got the idea from Niya hunt) but ... Go get some:

WHO chief calls Covid booster dose a ‘scandal’ as high-risk groups across world await first jab

https://www.indiatoday.in/coronaviru...340-2021-11-13
https://thehill.com/policy/healthcar...tries-wait-for
https://www.thehealthsite.com/news/c...avirus-847312/
https://english.lokmat.com/internati...-scandal-a473/



"The head of the World Health Organization (WHO) called the distribution of booster COVID-19 vaccines a “scandal that must stop now” on Friday as poorer countries continue to wait for initial doses.

Director-General Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus slammed countries with the “highest vaccine coverage” at a WHO briefing for collecting extra vaccine doses and prioritizing giving their citizens third and fourth doses over getting at-risk populations in other nations vaccinated.

“This is a scandal that must stop now,” he said.
ADVERTISEMENT

In fact, he cited data that six times more booster doses are administered globally than initial doses in low-income countries.

“It makes no sense to give boosters to healthy adults, or to vaccinate children, when health workers, older people and other high-risk groups around the world are still waiting for their first dose,” he added, noting that immunocompromised people are an exception.

Tedros also pointed out that countries need other coronavirus precautions in addition to vaccines, saying, “No country can simply vaccinate its way out of the pandemic.” "

[sapator]

Vienna protests.

https://twitter.com/EliseiNicole/sta...71646383226883

[Shaggy Hiker]

My response was a fever. Fevers are your body responding to something, so I felt it was appropriate. This one was stronger than the fever I may have had after my second dose, but that was at night, whereas this one was in the afternoon. It didn't last, and was kind of enjoyable, frankly. Gave me an excuse to lie around and listen to music.

@Sapator: I agree with that WHO view. I wouldn't use the term scandal. Disgrace seems like the better word. After all, scandals tend to be hidden, this one is right out in the open, and nobody has any question about why it's happening. Pfizer is selling doses to the developing world at cost, while selling to the rich world at a higher price. I have no problem with that part: A company exists to make profit, so you can't really expect them to just give products away. They are making their money off those who can afford to pay, while not making money off those that can't. One might quibble over the amounts, but they aren't a charitable organization, so I have no fundamental problem with that.

So what's happening here? They're selling boosters to those who will give them more money. The question I have is whether or not they are doing that at the expense of those who can't pay. I don't KNOW that's happening....but it's almost certainly happening.

It's also not the company, in my opinion. They're a company. They do what companies do. It's certain governments, perhaps especially the US (though also very much the EU), that I would say are primarily to blame for this.

However, that's where the change has to happen. My reasoning for the booster was that it is already at the pharmacy. They have a shelf life that isn't that long. If I don't get the booster, it won't be sent elsewhere, it will be destroyed. The problem is that it shouldn't have been at the store in the first place, but since it already was, my not getting it wouldn't do a thing towards redressing the underlying inequality of vaccinations.

Now, if all the developing world could have your view, then we wouldn't have a problem to begin with. If they wouldn't take the vaccine even if offered, then it wouldn't matter that it wasn't on offer.

Interestingly, despite some pretty rigorous disinformation campaigns around vaccination programs, they are widely favored in the developing world. Sure, there are some places that they are not, such as rural Pakistan, the last stronghold of polio, but for most of the world....they'd take them if they could get them.

Vaccine denial is for those who don't deal with diseases all the time.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Vienna protests.

https://twitter.com/EliseiNicole/sta...71646383226883

Yeah, lots of noise and fury, signifying nothing. Vienna has 1.73 million people, according to a quick Google search (what a world we live in). Even if all the protesters came from Vienna, and none came in from surrounding areas, which is VERY unlikely, that protest amounts to about the same percentage of the population as those that believe the Earth is flat.

There will be boisterous cranks always, on any subject. They tend to be loud, too, if the subject is particularly crank-worthy. Are we supposed to make policy revolve around the loudest group, no matter how fringe?

[wes4dbt]

There will be boisterous cranks always, on any subject. They tend to be loud, too, if the subject is particularly crank-worthy. Are we supposed to make policy revolve around the loudest group, no matter how fringe?

NO

But I am glad we have people willing to protest. Though I thoroughly disagree with these people. But we need people willing to spend time and energy protesting against governmental/corporate decisions. I hate to think what this world would be like if these agencies went unchallenged.

[dilettante]

LMAO, so "The right to Gumby" in the Monty Python sense?