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Thread: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

  1. #1201
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Let me break my promise and say it again. I once said that Chinese traditional medicine has greatly reduced the scientific literacy(thinking, quality and ability) of Chinese people. IMO, only about 1% of people in China have "scientific literacy(thinking, quality and ability)." According to the figures given by US official agencies, the proportion of Americans with scientific literacy is 15%. I said in previous comments that I think the proportion of people with scientific literacy in the United States is 7%. But after this period of observation, due to religious factors, the proportion is much lower than my expectation. IMO, it's only 1%.

    I didn't see any person in this thread meeting the standard of scientific literacy in my mind, that is to say, no one belongs to the 1%. I have not seen anyone introduce some simple basic virus knowledge, I have not seen anyone who has published unique insights on COVID-19, I have not seen anyone who has post professional comments on the measures come from WHO and CDC.

    Arrogance, ignorance and prejudice make this thread worthless in discussing and preventing COVID-19, it's just gossip. Of course, this sub-forum was originally a chat.

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    Superbly Moderated NeedSomeAnswers's Avatar
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    I didn't see any person in this thread meeting the standard of scientific literacy in my mind, that is to say, no one belongs to the 1%. I have not seen anyone introduce some simple basic virus knowledge
    This is a discussion forum not a scientific one, and that sets the tone of the discussion that does not mean nobody here understands the science.

    Its good that we have different perspectives like your in this thread and disagreements are often a good thing as they provoke discussion and learning, but i wish you would spend a bit less time telling us all that we dont live up to you scientific standards and also being offended and more time understanding why people have another point of view.
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  3. #1203
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by dreammanor View Post
    Arrogance, ignorance and prejudice make this thread worthless in discussing and preventing COVID-19, it's just gossip.
    The thread was actually doing really well for a few hours, but then you came back!

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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Dreamanor, people do want hear your opinions. I know I do and I've said several times that, as the only Chinese voice in this thread, you provide a unique perspective from which we can all benefit.

    But you can't expect those opinions to go unchallenged. Nobody else is afforded that privelege and neither will you be. Discussion and debate are not the blind acceptance of assertions. And simply calling people ignorant when they disagree with you is never going to fly. You're going to get real pushback if you keep doing that.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Jul 10th, 2020 at 09:25 AM.
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Masking is getting a bit weird.

    I haven't been out a whole lot because we've had stay-at-home orders and even since then I'm in no hurry to get infected.

    But when I have I noticed that in the medium-sized cities and in the small podunk towns people have been pretty good about wearing masks inside stores and medical buildings. The only places I've seen broad disregard for masks and hand sanitizer station use in within a large metro area and a college town.

    This would seem to run counter to "left/right" stereotypes about population density and PPE acceptance. But perhaps I'm only seeing outlier cases? Perhaps we're just "different" here. Perhaps things are just more complicated than portrayed in the "news" media.

    We have a new crackdown here:



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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Out here, there certainly appears to be the case that the older you are the more likely you are to be masked. That would fit better than left/right, since younger people are more likely to think themselves immune. There may also be a relationship between wealth and mask wearing, but it's not very clear, and the age difference could account for the whole thing. Naturally, I have no particular sample size, since I barely get out, either.
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    To be honest, here in SC, at least in the greater Charleston area where I am, I'm pleasantly surprised at the number of people I see out and about wearing masks. Much higher than I'd expect given this state's tendency to go against the grain. Although... now our Governor has decided that since you can only get sick after 11pm in a bar while drinking, all bars and liquor establishments must now close at 11pm, rather than 1am... 10pm, you're still fine... but apparently 11pm is the "magic time."

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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Mask wearing is way up here, three weeks ago maybe 50%, now maybe 85+%. Of course now CA. has a mask mandate . But also we are just now seeing large spikes in the number of new cases. It seems a large percentage of the population wont take a situation seriously until it becomes so serious and obvious locally that you can't ignore it. That's why we need leaders. These cowardly Governors that still wont mandate masks.... I'd be kicked off the forum if I said what I really think about them.

    It's so simple, such a small ask.

  9. #1209
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Boise has mandated masks, but not statewide, which makes sense to me. Most of Idaho is too rural to matter, and has few or no cases. The city is not so rural, and cases are soaring. From around 25/week a couple weeks back to over 400/day for the last few days. Small compared to some other places, but still growing fast.

    I just heard that a large chunk of our office has been told to quarantine. That's it, I'm not going back to the office.
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  10. #1210
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Boise has mandated masks, but not statewide, which makes sense to me. Most of Idaho is too rural to matter, and has few or no cases. The city is not so rural, and cases are soaring. From around 25/week a couple weeks back to over 400/day for the last few days. Small compared to some other places, but still growing fast.

    I just heard that a large chunk of our office has been told to quarantine. That's it, I'm not going back to the office.
    I agree, sort of. Idaho doesn't have a lot of different high population areas so leaving it to the mayors might work. But for the most part, even though it might not be far to the people in extremely rural areas, I think mask mandates need to be state wide, I'd be fine with country wide. It creates a clear standard. Our country has been trying to find all different excuses for not needing to wear masks, also we are a very mobile society. I think it's time to stop trying to do the minimum, look where it has got us. 70,000 new cases today.

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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    I took a drive late yesterday for a change of scenery.

    My destination was a small ice cream place on the fringe of a small town (pop. 2000), about 15 miles from me out into the sticks. A place where you see a lot of rather unsubtle new "Proud Union Family" yard signs that sprang up during the urban protests... and a gun shop next door to the ice cream place.

    King Kone has closed its walk up window and outdoor seating. There is no indoor seating since it is really just a large kiosk. Only the drive-through is open and the employees are masked. The people in their cars were masked and most kept their car windows closed until they got up to the window. I watched two guys go into that gun shop and they wore masks.

    As I said, I don't get out much. But so far everything I'm seeing contradicts the rhetoric in the media. Cities and college towns seem to be the worst about following good practices.

    For now I still haven't gone into a grocery store since early March. If I decide to instead of ordering delivered groceries again I'll probably consider Carl's Market in that small town. They even have a sign out front "Yes, We Have Sanitizer Stations Throughout The Store!"

  12. #1212
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Your area seems to be generally more observant than where I am. I'd say that we are less observant than media is reporting, but that may be changing fast. I haven't been into Boise for a couple months. I'll be going in there in a couple weeks, at which point I'll see how the compliance is with the mandatory mask order. I'll have to walk across the city, too, so I'll have a good look at it. I could take a taxi, but that just seems a bit wrong, so I'll be on foot.
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  13. #1213
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Hope you get a cool or at least dry day. I'll readily admit that walking in a mask any distance can get uncomfortable. But you only need that in crowds.

    We've had a break now from two weeks of sun and 90+ degree temperatures. Plenty of recent rain (though spotty, some of us got 2" others almost none) and highs closer to only 80. Oh well, I was getting used to not mowing.
    Last edited by dilettante; Jul 11th, 2020 at 11:39 AM.

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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    I can count on a dry day, but not a cool one.
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Masking is getting a bit weird.

    I haven't been out a whole lot because we've had stay-at-home orders and even since then I'm in no hurry to get infected.

    But when I have I noticed that in the medium-sized cities and in the small podunk towns people have been pretty good about wearing masks inside stores and medical buildings. The only places I've seen broad disregard for masks and hand sanitizer station use in within a large metro area and a college town.

    This would seem to run counter to "left/right" stereotypes about population density and PPE acceptance. But perhaps I'm only seeing outlier cases? Perhaps we're just "different" here. Perhaps things are just more complicated than portrayed in the "news" media.

    We have a new crackdown here:



    The deaf interpreter in that video used to work for me a while back, before she got her cochlear implants.
    I'm in Ohio and based on how many cases are detected in your county dictates mandatory masks or not so it can fluctuate day to day. I wear one inside stores all the time. I take it off in the parking lot.
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    I'd been thinking more or less "Get infected, you get sick with a chance of dying if you have some of a large number of pre-existing conditions."

    Now more and more I am hearing "Get infected a little bit you start creating antibodies, so when you get infected more and more by the time you get a heavy load your body is prepared." Sounds a little dicey, like "Seed the grass too thin and it dies, so seed heavily" or some other wacky analogy.

    However if there is any truth in it then it could be another justification for the hand washing, mask, instancing, etc.: Keeping "the grass" infestations too thin to survive your body's "weeds" long enough to grow a thick undefeatable "weed bed."

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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    I'd been thinking more or less "Get infected, you get sick with a chance of dying if you have some of a large number of pre-existing conditions."

    Now more and more I am hearing "Get infected a little bit you start creating antibodies, so when you get infected more and more by the time you get a heavy load your body is prepared." Sounds a little dicey, like "Seed the grass too thin and it dies, so seed heavily" or some other wacky analogy.

    However if there is any truth in it then it could be another justification for the hand washing, mask, instancing, etc.: Keeping "the grass" infestations too thin to survive your body's "weeds" long enough to grow a thick undefeatable "weed bed."
    That sounds like an absolutely terrible idea. If you die, you'll live to regret it. hmmm???

    No coming back from death. Even if you don't die there has been a lot of talk about long term harm to your lungs.

    I do understand the feeling of lets just get this over with and see what happens, if I knew I wouldn't die I might think about it. But I'm way to big a coward to get infected on purpose.

  18. #1218
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    I think the idea is that you can't avoid getting infected forever. The vaccines still aren't looking very good or very soon.

    Further, the suggested precautions can probably only help you avoid getting heavily infected all at once. No bubble is perfectly impermeable. So we can't expect perfect protection and it might not be a good idea anyway. The hygiene, masks, distancing, staying at home, etc. might only slow how much exposure you receive. For most people that lets us develop immunity over time, for others though you might get really sick or worse even with protection.

    Going without protection would mean you raise your odds of getting an infection you cannot cope with.

    Its not proven, but it would make sense that higher inoculating doses will lead to higher viral loads, and higher viral loads would translate into more pathogenic clinical courses, said Dan Barouch, director of the Center for Virology and Vaccine Research at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center.
    https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/14/...make-you-sick/

  19. #1219
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    "Get infected a little bit you start creating antibodies, so when you get infected more and more by the time you get a heavy load your body is prepared."
    That's basically how a lot of vaccines work (certainly historically, though I believe modern vaccines are essentially benign biological "mimics" of the target virus - don't take my word on that though, it's pub science). The very first vaccine, for small pox was... small pox. Most of the flu shots when I was a kid were doses of the flu. Given in controlled doses where the subject can be observed for the next few weeks it can be a very safe method of inoculation.

    I imagine this where we might end up going with Corona but there would be two obstacles to overcome: 1. doing enough research and testing to know what a "controlled dose" is (or even if a controlled dose is possible) and 2: knowing for sure that antibody immunity is a thing (I believe that's still the consensus but I think we're still waiting for a proof one way or the other - unless someone can update me on that).

    I'm not sure I'd rely on measures like hand washing, mask wearing etc. to achieve a sort of Heath Robinson inoculation program but it feels like a step in the right direction. It can't hurt.
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  20. #1220
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Now more and more I am hearing "Get infected a little bit you start creating antibodies, so when you get infected more and more by the time you get a heavy load your body is prepared." Sounds a little dicey, like "Seed the grass too thin and it dies, so seed heavily" or some other wacky analogy.
    This sounds like a terrible idea, my Sister in-law who is in her 30's and has no underlying conditions had Covid mildly in April, she is now suffering from chronic fatigue syndrome. About half the week she struggles to even get out of bed. She is in a support group with others who are suffering the same as her and she says that there are thousand of people who are struggling like her.

    I good friend of mine who is a Nurse got Covid in May, at one point she though she might die, however in side 3 weeks she had pretty much fully recovered. Her Husband and kids had very very mild symptoms and are completely fine.

    I know these are anecdotal but they align with studies which say that Covid can have long term effects for some people even if they have mild symptoms, and that younger people are not immune to this virus and some can still be effected in a significant way. It not just and old persons disease

    We are still learning about the Virus, i read an article the other day which said that recent studies suggested immuno response levels for people who have had Covid mildly dramatically fall after 3 months.

    I for one wont be gambling with my health by purposefully putting myself in harms way and i dont have any risk factors, what we know is changing all the time.
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  21. #1221
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    I'd been thinking more or less "Get infected, you get sick with a chance of dying if you have some of a large number of pre-existing conditions."

    Now more and more I am hearing "Get infected a little bit you start creating antibodies, so when you get infected more and more by the time you get a heavy load your body is prepared." Sounds a little dicey, like "Seed the grass too thin and it dies, so seed heavily" or some other wacky analogy.

    However if there is any truth in it then it could be another justification for the hand washing, mask, instancing, etc.: Keeping "the grass" infestations too thin to survive your body's "weeds" long enough to grow a thick undefeatable "weed bed."
    And drag a bunch of people down with your plan? You could just crash your car into a crowd instead
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  22. #1222
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    I think I'm reading Dil differently to you guys. I don't think he's saying you should deliberately expose yourself but rather, given that you probably can't 100% avoid exposure, take all the recommended measures (hand washing etc) to minimise that exposure and hope anything you catch is mild.

    To be honest, though, while we have some control over frequency of exposure, I don't think there's anything we can do to try and ensure a "mild dose". You're going to catch it or you're not and, if you catch it, it's going to take hold or it isn't. After that all bets are off.
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  23. #1223
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Viruses have a way of turning mild into major. They reproduce, after all. I doubt there is any way to ensure a small or mild dose.

    I'm somewhat optimistic about the chances of a viable vaccine. Not this month or next, but quite possibly before the end of the year. It may still fall through, but what makes me more optimistic is the fact that companies are ramping up production lines in anticipation. That was the second half of a vaccine, which I thought might not happen. If we got a vaccine, but could only produce a thousand doses a week, we might as well not have one at all. Instead, we'll be able to produce a few billion doses a month before we even know whether or not the vaccine works. Now all we need is for the vaccine to work...
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  24. #1224
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Pasteur Institute is working on one and human test are beginning https://translate.google.fr/translat...2381915_40.php
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  25. #1225
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Yeah, I'm not saying "do this" but instead "this is what we are doing" (using imperfect PPE and practices). So "the plan" is to observe all of the recommended precautions.

    Perhaps the slow infection that inevitably occurs might still be valuable even if ineffective at keeping you from getting infected at all. The whole thing hinges on the idea of repeated low-exposure having value, as opposed to high-dose exposure getting you really sick and perhaps succumbing. Supposedly getting repeated low exposure gives your body time to create increasing levels of antibodies.

    If that isn't true then this rationalization falls apart. I'm not saying the theory is fact, just that I've heard this as a justification for observing the imperfect precautions we have available to us... and in passing avoiding overloading the health care system with too many severe cases.

    I must not be expressing this well. I'm not suggesting people tear off their masks and run out and rub up against each other naked breathing hard on each other in close proximity.

    My point is that masks, isolation, hand washing, etc. are probably still a good idea even if they are imperfect protection. In other words even some protection might be a lot better than no protection. A mask might only screen out 5% from getting to you but keep 75% of your viral spew from puffing out in great clouds exposing others when you cough, sneeze, or pontificate at high volume.

    Or are some of you pretending masks are magical, providing an impermeable protective forcefield? Sorry to "burst your bubble."

  26. #1226
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Or are some of you pretending masks are magical, providing an impermeable protective forcefield? Sorry to "burst your bubble."
    Stop spreading your lies. I wore my mask the other day and a car bounced right off me.

  27. #1227
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    Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Viruses have a way of turning mild into major. They reproduce, after all. I doubt there is any way to ensure a small or mild dose.
    That's what I thought as well. So I had discredited the "gradual low-dose" idea when I first heard it back in March. However this seems to be gaining popularity with (or at least being repeated more by) moderate voices in the medical community.

    It doesn't promise a solution, it merely provide more justification to continue with protective practices even acknowledging their imperfection.

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