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Thread: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

  1. #1

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    Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    I saw a news that Microsoft split the Windows department and Windows disappeared from the department name list. Microsoft has been reorganized several times back and forth, but this is still the first time to remove "Windows" from the department name list since the Gates era.

    In the past two years, Windows only accounted for 9% of Microsoft's total revenue.

    Although Windows didn't really leave us (it's become an unobtrusive basic setting-infrastructure), it is gradually disappearing from the public eye.

    This is why I once said that the future of VB6 (or True-VB7) is ServerSide-Apps, Web-Apps and Mobile-Apps.

    Although VB6 is best at developing Windows desktop programs, if we only focus on Windows desktop programs, VB6 will have no future.
    Last edited by dreammanor; Apr 8th, 2018 at 08:47 AM.

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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Windows didn't really leave us (it's become an unobtrusive basic setting)
    I'm not sure what to make of that. So Windows is just an INI file according to you?

    One of the reasons the income is lower on Windows over the last few years is they gave it away for free to tons of people and keep giving free updates.

    Keep in mind that most MS products are designed to run under Windows which is not an "unobtrusive basic setting" it is a premier operating system used on the majority of PCs around the world. While Windows sales only account for a small percentage of overall sales it allows them to sell much more so is responsible for a much larger percentage on total income than suggested.

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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    yeah, i dont think "windows" is leaving at all. maybe they re-organize a bit, maybe windows is like a core product and will be spread to many departments.

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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    DataMiser and baka,

    Didn't you see that Windows's position in Microsoft has been declining? Didn't you see that the importance of Windows in people's work and life is constantly decreasing? This trend is particularly evident in our country.

    You may not be able to imagine how widespread mobile-apps and e-commerce are in our country. It goes deep into every aspect of our lives, such as work, education, government service, shopping, paying, traveling, booking, taking-taxi, taking-bus, sharing bicycles, entertainment and so on. I believe this trend has already occurred or will soon happen in other countries.

    All this made me very anxious.
    Last edited by dreammanor; Apr 8th, 2018 at 09:13 PM.

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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    dont worry, technology is almost there where you can use the exact same os in mobile as in a stationary computers.
    when we get there, they dont need to make one os for mobile and one for stationary, so its a merged os.

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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Meh.

    As far as I can tell this is just more of the Anders Hejlsberg Camp's doing. Wasn't enough they made a mess of Longhorn by trying to cram .Net into it, then cost Microsoft the mobile market by cramming .Net into it, then the Metro fiasco from cramming more .Net in there, etc. etc.

    Anders "VB Killer" Hejlsberg is the Great Satan of Software and he has quite a coterie of minions.

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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Quote Originally Posted by baka View Post
    dont worry, technology is almost there where you can use the exact same os in mobile as in a stationary computers.
    when we get there, they dont need to make one os for mobile and one for stationary, so its a merged os.
    20 years ago, TVs were a must-have for every family, but 10 years ago, many families had no TVs, or had TVs and never turned them on, because TVs were no longer household essentials.

    10 years ago, in my city, almost every family had 1 or 2 PCs or laptops. Now many families don't have a PC, but each family has at least five smartphones.

    In our country, even in very remote and impoverished mountainous areas where farmers have never seen computers and don't know what Windows is, they know how to use smart phones to sell their goods and use smart phones to receive payments.

    I know that companies, education and government departments will continue to need Windows, but if your software is for individuals or families, then you will find that the Windows required for VB6 software has become less and less. We cannot convince users to buy a PC in order to run our VB6 software.

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Meh.

    As far as I can tell this is just more of the Anders Hejlsberg Camp's doing. Wasn't enough they made a mess of Longhorn by trying to cram .Net into it, then cost Microsoft the mobile market by cramming .Net into it, then the Metro fiasco from cramming more .Net in there, etc. etc.

    Anders "VB Killer" Hejlsberg is the Great Satan of Software and he has quite a coterie of minions.
    Now the problem is not only that VB6 is slowly being killed and abandoned, but that Windows is gradually being abandoned by people. What should Windows programmers do? Retire or divert to become a express courier(delivery person) for Amazon or Ali-ba-ba? It may be a good idea for me to "jump square dance".
    Last edited by dreammanor; Apr 8th, 2018 at 09:31 PM.

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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Most people barely used a PC for anything a tablet or ChromeBook can't do when when Windows was at its height of popularity.

    Now that alternatives exist that are as good as or better than a PC as a "digital TV," simple to use, and easy to get as a package along with Internet connectivity it makes sense that the masses will move there. Even that "movement" is at least in part illusion. Rather than a "move" what has taken place is more new-platform adoption by people who never had a PC in the first place. The market has just expanded in a direction away from the older market segment that bought PCs.

    The time to get into table and phone platforms has already come and gone. The market for software development there has already become saturated and commoditized in the global race to the bottom. It is pretty tough to make a living in software anymore. Most of the software market now consists of simple consumers with generic needs that are met by a few large companies using cheap mass labor on a gig basis. They use a very small number of sophisticated developers to do the heavy lifting, making the "software Lego Blocks" that the $1/hour people assemble when mass assembly into software products is needed.

    It was a lot different when companies had a need for software developers to create software to meet their specific needs. This still exists, but it is a much smaller slice of the software development "pie" these days. There is also now a large number of cheapo programmers they can use who keep low-balling each other into poverty.

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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    In our country, there is still a lot of space for growth in the software market, but the space left for Windows programmers is getting less and less.

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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Quote Originally Posted by dreammanor View Post
    Now many families don't have a PC
    If you include Macs, this is the primary sentence I find troubling. With respect to technology, to a very large degree, people don't "replace". Rather, they "add on." Rather than people not having a PC (or a Mac), they have two or three per person, in addition to the smart-phones, tablets, phablets, and laplets that they have as well, all used for slightly different niches.

    Just as an example, I've got a powerhouse laptop that I often have three monitors plugged into, as well as a rather dedicated computer for me at one of my clients, and a nice Samsung tablet, and a nice Droid phone. My wife has a powerhouse Dell desktop with three monitors hanging off of it (she's an online teacher), and also an iPad and two (one personal and one work) iPhones she carries around with her. My daughter has a Macbook Air, two iPads (one of the really big ones), and an iPhone; and she uses all of them frequently in various situations.

    In addition to all of that, we have a closet full of old laptops and desktops. We still occasionally pull one of the old laptops out to use for something specific. Oh wait, I've also got two more laptops that just sit there. One is my Plex server that runs all the time, and the other is my old Asus I keep as a backup. Ahhh, and let's not forget the Synology NAS box.

    Ohhh, and I didn't mention that both my wife and daughter have Apple watches as well as FitBit devices, and a variety of headphone/earbud devices. And we won't even get into the gaming consoles kicking around and the VR headsets.

    Like I said, we're not replacing ... we're adding on.

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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Elroy is right, in the past a family shared a computer, today they all have one each if not more.
    when I got my first computer, a commodore 64, i needed to borrow the tv, and i coudn't use it more then 1-2 hours a day.
    there where handheld consoles, a got a few, but other then that, no cellphones and nothing else.

    today, i have 2 computers in my primary home, and 2 computers in my other apartments. i have a nas as well. i do not have a smartphone or anything else, neither a laptop. and its not because i can't afford.
    the reason is that im spending a lot of time on my computer when im free, so when im off, i want to be free from technology.
    my mom, my sis, my wife all have laptops and smartphones. all my friends have a desktop and/or laptops and smartphones and other stuff.
    theres none in my friendship that doesn't have a computer. we do talk about VR, and thats the next thing, and with that it will require a computer.

    like Elroy says, people have a lot of stuff, its not that you need to choose, you can pick everything.
    and usually if you don't have a computer you got a playstation or xbox, and its exactly the same when i grew up, some have commodore64/amiga/pc and some atari/coleco/nintendo/sega/playstation/xbox.

    sure, for some people they dont need a computer, they just surf a bit and chat, its the same people 25 years ago that did call people using a phone, they didnt have a computer back then.
    i will always have a computer, that because im used to it, its a part of who i am, i grow up with that and im sure a lot are the same and they will keep buying new computers.

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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elroy View Post
    If you include Macs, this is the primary sentence I find troubling. With respect to technology, to a very large degree, people don't "replace". Rather, they "add on." Rather than people not having a PC (or a Mac), they have two or three per person, in addition to the smart-phones, tablets, phablets, and laplets that they have as well, all used for slightly different niches.

    Just as an example, I've got a powerhouse laptop that I often have three monitors plugged into, as well as a rather dedicated computer for me at one of my clients, and a nice Samsung tablet, and a nice Droid phone. My wife has a powerhouse Dell desktop with three monitors hanging off of it (she's an online teacher), and also an iPad and two (one personal and one work) iPhones she carries around with her. My daughter has a Macbook Air, two iPads (one of the really big ones), and an iPhone; and she uses all of them frequently in various situations.

    In addition to all of that, we have a closet full of old laptops and desktops. We still occasionally pull one of the old laptops out to use for something specific. Oh wait, I've also got two more laptops that just sit there. One is my Plex server that runs all the time, and the other is my old Asus I keep as a backup. Ahhh, and let's not forget the Synology NAS box.

    Ohhh, and I didn't mention that both my wife and daughter have Apple watches as well as FitBit devices, and a variety of headphone/earbud devices. And we won't even get into the gaming consoles kicking around and the VR headsets.

    Like I said, we're not replacing ... we're adding on.

    Y'all Take Care,
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    Of course includs Macs. In fact, Mac's share of the Chinese market is very small, but the iPhone is very popular in our country. You are a professional computer person, you won't easily throw away old PCs or laptops. So, for you and your family, you are not replacing ... but adding on. But for many other families, they just throw away old computers, or these young people do not buy computers for their families at all, because computers are no longer household essentials. They may just need computers in their offices.

    Microsoft once made a statistic that only 14% of the Internet devices(OS) in the world are Windows. In the future this value may be less than 10%.
    Last edited by dreammanor; Apr 9th, 2018 at 10:06 AM.

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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    http://stats.areppim.com/stats/stats_pcxfcst.htm
    https://www.itu.int/en/ITU-D/Statist...t/default.aspx

    too bad theres no data for 2005+ only forecast , but it seems to increase.
    using other data from internet/broadband, especially the "fixed" its still increasing. sure you can have broadband without a computer, but that also tells people want a fixed broadband not just mobile connection. this to connect "high-speed" internet, to use for tv and computers.

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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Hi baka,

    The city where I live is the most developed city in China's IT industry. 10 years ago, almost every family in this city had 1, 2 PCs or laptops, but now computers are no longer their household necessities. This trend is likely to occur in other Chinese cities, or even in other countries.

    In addition, I have seen reports that sales of notebooks and PCs have continued to decline globally since 2011.
    Last edited by dreammanor; Apr 9th, 2018 at 11:14 AM.

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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Quote Originally Posted by dreammanor View Post

    In our country, even in very remote and impoverished mountainous areas where farmers have never seen computers and don't know what Windows is, they know how to use smart phones to sell their goods and use smart phones to receive payments.
    That is likely a combination of price point, lack of broadband internet penetration and lack of need. Those farmers are really just using the phone as an IO device for the information it has. In fact, it is likely more O than I, too, because they will be gathering more information from it than they will contribute. However, with the vast number of market-based resources available, the phone can truly become an economic information exchange tool for farmers. They aren't likely to be into heavy gaming, and if they don't have good broadband, then a phone may be the only way that they can tap into the economic information. Therefore, one can say that a phone allows Old MacDonald to have a farm EIE IO.
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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Let's see I have 6 PCs, a laptop, a few Droid devices, a few Windows mobile devices and a few game consoles. The PCs get by far the most use.

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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    I think you also need to make a distinction between home users and business users. And if you're talking about China, I've always heard the Chinese rarely buy software anyway, so China has been off my list of potential customers. My software is targeted to businesses & organizations and I've gotten sales from almost every country in the world, but never in my 15 years have I received even one sale from mainland China. Partly it's due to the "Great Firewall", but there must be other reasons as well, such as my software currently only being in English. So while Windows has been on the decline, maybe it's happening faster in China than the western world.

    That being said, if you have software that could be of great value on mobile, it's certainly worthwhile to get it there. I would very much like to develop for mobile, but I'd pretty much have to go C# and use the Xamarin platform.

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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDude View Post
    I would very much like to develop for mobile, but I'd pretty much have to go C# and use the Xamarin platform.

    baka: Commodore rulez!
    You should look into B4A. It is cheap and enough like VB that it is easy to pick up and run with.
    I looked into the C# and Xamarin route and a few others before deciding on B4A.

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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Of course Windows is becoming less relevant. That's not really Microsoft's fault. There are now alternatives that are just as useful or more useful for many people. Microsoft have tried to make Windows more relevant to those people but have been criticised by many for making it less relevant to others as a result. So they get criticised for turning it into a mobile OS when they try to make it more relevant and criticised for it not being relevant when they don't. Microsoft tried to make something that wasn't traditional Windows to compete with phones and tablets from Apple and Android but failed. They could have done many things better with Windows RT and Windows Phone/Windows 10 Mobile but the biggest impediment was the fact that they were late to the party. That was their mistake but it's a fact now that we all have to deal with. Saying that they should have recognised the threat sooner is of no real value, whether it's true or not, because it's what happens now that matters for the future. Microsoft tried to leverage their position on the desktop. That didn't go to plan, but would they have done better if they hadn't? Would a Microsoft competitor to iOS and Android that had no Windows heritage have been more successful? I doubt it.

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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    I think what is happening is a lot like what happened to Microsoft in mobile.

    At one time Microsoft was the only viable game in town for serious use. The old Windows CE based PocketPC/PDA/Phone platform had most of the market share, everything else being pretty limited in capabilities.

    Something Apple (and later Google) took advantage of was the broader, less sophisticated mass market. These people didn't want a Pocket PC, they wanted something more like a television set or an iPod that was also a phone. Primarily an entertainment and information "terminal" for content providers to "broadcast" content to.

    Microsoft fumbled trying to move into that larger market. They alienated their mobile developer base, pulling much the same crap they did on VB6 developers but even more so. By then there were alternatives with large shares of the market and so most developers moved on to iOS or Android and never looked back. Few applications, few sales.

    Just as the mobile market has expanded away from Microsoft, it has also eaten a lot of the traditional PC market where most of the people only wanted a "content terminal" device anyway.

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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    That is likely a combination of price point, lack of broadband internet penetration and lack of need. Those farmers are really just using the phone as an IO device for the information it has. In fact, it is likely more O than I, too, because they will be gathering more information from it than they will contribute. However, with the vast number of market-based resources available, the phone can truly become an economic information exchange tool for farmers. They aren't likely to be into heavy gaming, and if they don't have good broadband, then a phone may be the only way that they can tap into the economic information. Therefore, one can say that a phone allows Old MacDonald to have a farm EIE IO.
    Yes, China has huge market resources, a huge commodity market, a huge mobile phone market, and a huge Mobile-Apps market, but the Windows market is getting smaller and smaller. If not for MS-Office, perhaps Microsoft will disappear from the Chinese market within 3-5 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by DataMiser View Post
    Let's see I have 6 PCs, a laptop, a few Droid devices, a few Windows mobile devices and a few game consoles. The PCs get by far the most use.
    Because you're a developer.

    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDude View Post
    I think you also need to make a distinction between home users and business users.
    I've been developing software for businesses and organizations for many years, and now I'm turning my goal to home users. Of course, as you say, my software is basically free. However, the purpose of doing so is not entirely to make money (it is most likely to earn less than a penny), but rather interest and responsibility.

    Dilettante said "It is pretty tough to make a living in software anymore." In fact, it should be exactly like this: "It is pretty tough to make a living in enterprise software (especially windows desktop software) anymore.

    Why do I talk about this topic? Because I want to provide some reference information for Olaf and other VB enthusiasts:

    1. The market for VB6 software is mainly in the enterprise users, but this area has been rapidly changed by the internet and mobile. Not only VB6 is marginalized, but even Windows, on which many desktop software depends, is quickly marginalized.

    2. Gradually stepping out of the Windows platform is a wise decision.

    3. The future of VB6 (or True-VB7) is ServerSide-Apps, Web-Apps and Mobile-Apps.

    4. It's a bit too late if Olaf's new compiler and IDE come out in 2022 years.
    Last edited by dreammanor; Apr 10th, 2018 at 05:22 AM.

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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Maybe (some) people will get what they've been asking for.

    Microsoft is open-sourcing some weird obsolete stuff. Example: Original Windows File Manager (winfile) with enhancements.

    So who can say? Maybe they'll get around to releasing VB6 source code too... just before they retire Windows forever to focus on Azure, web-based Office, and a stripped down ChromeBook style OS that doesn't run applications that are not built in?

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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Quote Originally Posted by DataMiser View Post
    You should look into B4A. It is cheap and enough like VB that it is easy to pick up and run with.
    I looked into the C# and Xamarin route and a few others before deciding on B4A.
    I'd give it a try for Android & iOS if it has everything I need, one important one being multithreading. I so wish I was ready to go mobile. Maybe next year! I will definitely keep it in mind, thanks for the reminder! Funny thing is, with iOS they no longer allow access to the ARP table to get MAC addresses, which severely hampers the type of software I develop. So I'd definitely start with Android. However if Apple didn't have such a stick up their butts, iOS would be my intial preference since way more people buy apps on iOS than Android.

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Microsoft fumbled trying to move into that larger market. They alienated their mobile developer base, pulling much the same crap they did on VB6 developers but even more so. By then there were alternatives with large shares of the market and so most developers moved on to iOS or Android and never looked back. Few applications, few sales.
    I bet if Microsoft would have went the way of a Windows phone that ran native Windows on Intel CPUs so developers could pull from their already huge code base, Windows phones would still be around. There's not a whole lot one needs to do to get a traditional (legacy MS calls it) app usable on a small screen. Then they could have more slowly introduced the "Modern/Metro" mobile apps and it would have allowed developers like us to eventually support it too. Of course I could be totally wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by dreammanor View Post
    Dilettante said "It is pretty tough to make a living in software anymore." In fact, it should be exactly like this: "It is pretty tough to make a living in enterprise software (especially windows desktop software) anymore.
    Maybe, but you hear of all these big software companies in the area I work in, such as SolarWinds, Kaseya, etc. who seem to be raking it in. I still think if you can come up with something popular that isn't done very well, you can still make a fantastic living from it, and dare I say, even become rich. As an example of "making a better mouse trap", Google "IP scanner" and see how little information the most popular Windows IP scanners give back after scanning your network, like Angry IP Scanner, Advanced IP Scanner, and even the Spiceworks stuff. It's pretty pathetic, even for free software. My software is all the way on page 3, yet my scan results outperform them all, and I'm only at v1.1!

    Quote Originally Posted by dreammanor View Post
    The market for VB6 software is mainly in the enterprise users, but this area has been rapidly changed by the internet and mobile. Not only VB6 is marginalized, but even Windows, on which many desktop software depends, is quickly marginalized.
    I have to agree here. Mobile and Internet needs to be in the mix, no matter what country you're in.

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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    There are few viable jobs in "mobile and Internet." The race to the bottom has been even more fierce there than on the desktop. Those are are rapidly becoming sub-minimum wage temp jobs.

    The "bread and butter" used to be LOB jobs, first on mainframes and then on minis and later on micros. The outsourcing/offshoring race to the bottom there has gutted it as a career option.

    Traditionally well-paying systems programming jobs that demand a high level of skill and experience still exist but these have always been few in number. There might still be a small handful of lucky and successful game developers making good money but their numbers are probably dwindling rapidly. There are niche jobs here and there in things like IoT, Big Data, etc. but there aren't enough of those to keep people from flipping burgers and in most cases you must live in a very high-cost area or face impractically long commutes.

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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Since I'm not really in the job market, I'm not sure about that. As far as I can see, there are loads of LOB jobs that deal with mobile. I write things for mobile that are LOB stuff, and there are a fair number of jobs out there like that. Not in the hundreds of thousands, but probably in the thousands. Of course, the area is natural resources, which is pretty niche, but not a tiny niche.
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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Maybe (some) people will get what they've been asking for.

    Microsoft is open-sourcing some weird obsolete stuff. Example: Original Windows File Manager (winfile) with enhancements.

    So who can say? Maybe they'll get around to releasing VB6 source code too... just before they retire Windows forever to focus on Azure, web-based Office, and a stripped down ChromeBook style OS that doesn't run applications that are not built in?
    I suspect Microsoft won't release VB6 source code, because VB6 involves many core secrets of Windows, especially MS-Office, and they would rather destroy the VB6 source code than share it.

    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDude View Post
    Maybe, but you hear of all these big software companies in the area I work in, such as SolarWinds, Kaseya, etc. who seem to be raking it in. I still think if you can come up with something popular that isn't done very well, you can still make a fantastic living from it, and dare I say, even become rich. As an example of "making a better mouse trap", Google "IP scanner" and see how little information the most popular Windows IP scanners give back after scanning your network, like Angry IP Scanner, Advanced IP Scanner, and even the Spiceworks stuff. It's pretty pathetic, even for free software. My software is all the way on page 3, yet my scan results outperform them all, and I'm only at v1.1!
    Tools software like SolarWinds has some fixed enterprise markets, but their share of the entire software market is very small(less than 1%), and I don't even know SolarWinds is a big company. As for Kaseya, I have never heard of this company, only after searching the Internet did I know it. If you are developing this kind of software, it is really difficult to sell in the Chinese market. These softwares are often considered to be hacking software or rogue software that will be intercepted by security software. In our country, 99% of VB6 software that scans IPs or uses winsock or hooks will be blocked by security software.

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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    It's funny how simple the SolarWinds tools are, and yet the tools are ubiquitous in enterprise...

  28. #28
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    I'm a contractor so I spend a lot of time watching the job market and my experience has been that traditional desktop roles have all but disappeared, whether that's for LOB or consumer apps. Consumer stuffs largely drifted over to mobile and LOB has moved to web (though typically intra- rather than inter- net). There's a healthy amount of cross-over between the two but no new projects are taking the traditional desktop approach.

    Fair disclosure, I'm primarily a C# man these days but I don't think this is a .Net vs classic issue, it's a platform issue.

    Personally, I just can't get my head round the flow layouts clients want on web and mobile (yeah, I get the principles, they just never seem to work properly for me) so NOBODY is interested in hiring me for UI work anymore. That's not really a problem for me as I can find plenty of backend (database) and middle-tier work. But I haven't touched a UI in well over 5 years now and that should tell you something: if your only skill is in traditional desktop development you should be looking over your shoulder. You don't need to panic and you've still got time to learn new skills but you'd damn well better start soon.
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  29. #29
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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDude View Post
    My software is all the way on page 3, yet my scan results outperform them all, and I'm only at v1.1!
    Time to invest in some good marketing, you'll make back the money you spend on it.

  30. #30

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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    I'm a contractor so I spend a lot of time watching the job market and my experience has been that traditional desktop roles have all but disappeared, whether that's for LOB or consumer apps. Consumer stuffs largely drifted over to mobile and LOB has moved to web (though typically intra- rather than inter- net). There's a healthy amount of cross-over between the two but no new projects are taking the traditional desktop approach.

    Fair disclosure, I'm primarily a C# man these days but I don't think this is a .Net vs classic issue, it's a platform issue.

    Personally, I just can't get my head round the flow layouts clients want on web and mobile (yeah, I get the principles, they just never seem to work properly for me) so NOBODY is interested in hiring me for UI work anymore. That's not really a problem for me as I can find plenty of backend (database) and middle-tier work. But I haven't touched a UI in well over 5 years now and that should tell you something: if your only skill is in traditional desktop development you should be looking over your shoulder. You don't need to panic and you've still got time to learn new skills but you'd damn well better start soon.
    Yes. The importance of the Windows UI continues to decline, which is why I suggested that Olaf temporarily ignore the desktop UI in his first version of the new compiler and IDE, only consider Class and Module(bas).

    When I talk about this topic, someone thinks I'm just talking about VB6, actually I'm talking about Windows platform. I've been developing software for enterprise users for many years, but that's just to make money. Developing software for home users is my real interest. But when I start doing things that I'm interested in, the Windows platform that I depended on is constantly fading.

  31. #31
    Superbly Moderated NeedSomeAnswers's Avatar
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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    I'm a contractor so I spend a lot of time watching the job market and my experience has been that traditional desktop roles have all but disappeared
    Oh they exist we have them at my work place but they are almost all on legacy applications. Your right in that these jobs are generally already filled and they dont come up much on the job market.

    There are few viable jobs in "mobile and Internet." The race to the bottom has been even more fierce there than on the desktop. Those are are rapidly becoming sub-minimum wage temp jobs.
    That statement is just nonsense, Web and Mobile development is how i make my living and i make good money from it, I work for a fairly large software house that makes a lot of money selling software to business and government and consequently they pay me and our other developers very well.

    The Software Development jobs market is really good in the UK at the moment certainly where i live anyway.

    Dreammanor - if your worry is your skill set is becoming out of date then why not just learn some new skills??

    VB6 is not the be all and end all, and honestly nobody is ever going to develop a full VB7 its just to much work.

    Personally i develop in C# which allows me to develop for web and mobile and as it seems to be Microsoft's favoured language any other new platform will likely get C# support and you will probably be able to develop for it straight out of Visual Studio.

    If however sticking closest language wise to VB is your goal why not take a look at B4A (Basic For Android) which allows you to develop android mobile applications using the Basic syntax ?
    Please Mark your Thread "Resolved", if the query is solved & Rate those who have helped you



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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    I see a lot of wishful thinking here.

  33. #33
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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    which is why I suggested that Olaf temporarily ignore the desktop UI in his first version of the new compiler and IDE
    If he's not going to release until 2022 as you implied in a previous post I think I'd agree but I get the impression he's constantly trickling out new bits and pieces isn't he? I've not paid much attention to it so I could be wrong. Assuming he is trickling bits out then some desktop UI's probably a much wanted feature, at least in the short term.

    Personally, if I was Olaf I'd want to be focusing my efforts towards supporting web and mobile UIs (and middle and back end but I don't think they're really under debate here) but if there's a way I could offer desktop UI support easily I'd certainly grab it as a quick win.

    But I'm not Olaf and, if there's one thing I do believe about him: he won't be swayed. He knows his own mind and he's got a very strong vision of where he's going with his offering. While community feedback might lead him to tweak small things here and there, I doubt it'll affect the overall vision one jot. Whether he's "stalwartly committed" or "sheer bloody minded" really just depends on where your standing and whether his vision happens to line up with your own.
    You can depend upon the Americans to do the right thing. But only after they have exhausted every other possibility - Winston Churchill

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  34. #34

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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers View Post
    Dreammanor - if your worry is your skill set is becoming out of date then why not just learn some new skills??

    VB6 is not the be all and end all, and honestly nobody is ever going to develop a full VB7 its just to much work.

    Personally i develop in C# which allows me to develop for web and mobile and as it seems to be Microsoft's favoured language any other new platform will likely get C# support and you will probably be able to develop for it straight out of Visual Studio.

    If however sticking closest language wise to VB is your goal why not take a look at B4A (Basic For Android) which allows you to develop android mobile applications using the Basic syntax ?
    Hi NeedSomeAnswers, thank you for your advice. I'm not worried about my skill set being out of date, I'm just worried that Windows is obsolete. I choose VB6 because I like it, it can bring me fun.

    I haven't started developing mobile-apps, I'm just trying to use VB6 to develop web-apps. When I'm ready to start developing mobile-app, I'll get to know B4A. Thank you.

  35. #35

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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    If he's not going to release until 2022 as you implied in a previous post I think I'd agree but I get the impression he's constantly trickling out new bits and pieces isn't he? I've not paid much attention to it so I could be wrong. Assuming he is trickling bits out then some desktop UI's probably a much wanted feature, at least in the short term.

    Personally, if I was Olaf I'd want to be focusing my efforts towards supporting web and mobile UIs (and middle and back end but I don't think they're really under debate here) but if there's a way I could offer desktop UI support easily I'd certainly grab it as a quick win.

    But I'm not Olaf and, if there's one thing I do believe about him: he won't be swayed. He knows his own mind and he's got a very strong vision of where he's going with his offering. While community feedback might lead him to tweak small things here and there, I doubt it'll affect the overall vision one jot. Whether he's "stalwartly committed" or "sheer bloody minded" really just depends on where your standing and whether his vision happens to line up with your own.
    Yes, Olaf is very assertive, and he won't be easily swayed. I just say what I think, but I don't expect to change anything.

    Why do I suggest that Olaf ignore the desktop-UI? Because the UI will cost Olaf a lot of time, there are only a few people in the VB community who can help Olaf.

  36. #36
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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Quote Originally Posted by dreammanor View Post
    I haven't started developing mobile-apps, I'm just trying to use VB6 to develop web-apps. When I'm ready to start developing mobile-app, I'll get to know B4A. Thank you.
    Something to consider though is to look at the (free last time I checked) B4J. The language syntax is nearly 100% the same as B4A and it has many libraries in common as well.

    I won't use them any more for political reasons I won't go into, but they are quality products considering how small a team is behind them.

  37. #37
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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    I see a lot of wishful thinking here.
    When it comes to speculating about the future, you only really have two options, and wishful thinking is the better one.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  38. #38
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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Something to consider though is to look at the (free last time I checked) B4J. The language syntax is nearly 100% the same as B4A and it has many libraries in common as well.

    I won't use them any more for political reasons I won't go into, but they are quality products considering how small a team is behind them.
    like what? if its anything regarding ethics, it may matter to some of us here

  39. #39
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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    No, it's too controversial. Just dig into the actual country of origin of the products.

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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    VB seems to be holding its own against the forces of deprecation: TIOBE Index for April 2018 (note to future readers: this link is required to be a generic one and each month it will show a new page).

    But if Microsoft pulls out the Windows rug from beneath it by 2025 that won't help much. Still, 2025 is a ways off. Better get Windows 10 now though if you need that much longevity.

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