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Thread: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

  1. #561
    Smooth Moperator techgnome's Avatar
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by quickbbbb View Post
    VisualFreeBasic IDE no debugger , can not debug step by step

    but has 3rd debugger
    Then it can't really be called an IDE... by definition an the D in IDE is for Debugger... Integrated Debugger and Editor...


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  2. #562
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    All this time I thought it was Integrated Development Environment. That doesn't make as much sense as Integrated Debugger and Editor, but it's only slightly worse. It all comes down to what is being Integrated.

    Now I don't know which is right

    Perhaps it has become a pure TLA, where the meaning isn't as important as the acronym.
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  3. #563
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    《visual freebasic》ide,There is now an English version.Vfb author Yong Fang continued to develop for several years, although different from visual studio 2019 thousands of miles, but many times better than freebasic. I hope everyone will participate and write some plug-ins.

  4. #564
    PowerPoster PlausiblyDamp's Avatar
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    All this time I thought it was Integrated Development Environment. That doesn't make as much sense as Integrated Debugger and Editor, but it's only slightly worse. It all comes down to what is being Integrated.

    Now I don't know which is right

    Perhaps it has become a pure TLA, where the meaning isn't as important as the acronym.
    I always thought of it as Integrated Development Environment as well, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integr...nt_environment seems to agree as does https://www.eclipse.org/ide/

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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    All this time I thought it was Integrated Development Environment. That doesn't make as much sense as Integrated Debugger and Editor, but it's only slightly worse. It all comes down to what is being Integrated.

    Now I don't know which is right

    Perhaps it has become a pure TLA, where the meaning isn't as important as the acronym.
    I thought the same thing so I had to look it up

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/vis...e?view=vs-2019

  6. #566
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Makes sense, since a real IDE offers more than editing and debugging.

  7. #567
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    And here I was, not even looking it up. I was kind of feeling that TG had a better meaning for the acronym than I had. It may have started out with that meaning, then morphed later on. In the early days, combining an editor and a debugger would have been about as novel as combining sound with moving pictures. You had one or the other, but not both. Perhaps, once more tools than just those were combined, the true perfection of the TLA was recognized when folks realized that it still served, only with a different meaning.

    If so, that moment was lost in time, and we're all just ignorant savages.
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    To use the Chinese programs and understand the texts, I realized an automatic program in VBA (Excel naturally recognizes Chinese characters but not VB6) which indicates the position in the program, the number of bytes of the message, the Hex code of the message, text in Chinese, text in English, text in my language.

    For example in VFB5.2.6, it extracted 633 messages.

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  9. #569
    Smooth Moperator techgnome's Avatar
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    All this time I thought it was Integrated Development Environment. That doesn't make as much sense as Integrated Debugger and Editor, but it's only slightly worse. It all comes down to what is being Integrated.

    Now I don't know which is right

    Perhaps it has become a pure TLA, where the meaning isn't as important as the acronym.
    Quote Originally Posted by PlausiblyDamp View Post
    I always thought of it as Integrated Development Environment as well, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integr...nt_environment seems to agree as does https://www.eclipse.org/ide/
    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    I thought the same thing so I had to look it up

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/vis...e?view=vs-2019
    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Makes sense, since a real IDE offers more than editing and debugging.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    And here I was, not even looking it up. I was kind of feeling that TG had a better meaning for the acronym than I had. It may have started out with that meaning, then morphed later on. In the early days, combining an editor and a debugger would have been about as novel as combining sound with moving pictures. You had one or the other, but not both. Perhaps, once more tools than just those were combined, the true perfection of the TLA was recognized when folks realized that it still served, only with a different meaning.

    If so, that moment was lost in time, and we're all just ignorant savages.
    Actually, when I wrote that initially, I hadn't had my coffee yet, and even as I wrote it, I thought "wait, that doesn't look right..." but I stuck with it and posted it anyways.... :P So in my defense I claim a momentary lack of sanity.

    -tg
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    For what's it's worth (not much probably), classic vb has dropped out of the top 20 on the TIOBE index for the first time.

  11. #571
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Classic VB was never in TIOBE. What people were thinking of as being classic VB in TIOBE was essentially Visual Basic once you remove the things that were clearly labeled VB.NET. They published their methodology, so you could repeat it, though why anybody would want to repeat ALL of it is beyond me. After all, they were aggregating across more search engines than I'd ever care to look at.

    Still, if you repeat their methodology with just a few, you quickly realize that almost half of what was considered classic VB was really VBA. Of the remaining half, almost 90% appeared to be VB.NET, just without the .NET part prominent in the page. They recognized that this would be the case, and put half the results towards VB.NET while leaving the other half. A bit of sampling shows that they should have put 90% towards VB.NET and left 10%.

    I asked the folks at TIOBE, several years back, to include a VB6 category. They were interested in the idea, but within the limitations of their methodology, I believe they decided that they couldn't get a more fair representation than what they had. It's too bad, considering how often TIOBE was cited by VB6 supporters. What you ended up with was a misleading stat, which you wouldn't recognize as misleading unless you dug into the methodology and repeated some of their searches yourself.

    Whether classic VB has fallen out of the top 20 or not is kind of irrelevant. It may have fallen out if they changed their methodology to apportion the VBA and VB.NET parts of that classic VB more accurately, or it may be a change in web pages themselves over the years. If people were more precise in labeling VBA as VBA and VB.NET as VB.NET on their pages, rather than just saying "Visual Basic". That would also cause the "Classic VB" category to drop. In either case, it wouldn't reflect anything other than a change in terminology, which few would be interested in.
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Considering that methodology they describe I'm not sure how well their counts for Java vs JavaScript or C vs C++ vs C# or even peanut butter vs chocolate might be.

    It's all smelled like contrived marketing, a medicine show, for a very long time.

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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Expect a 64-bit NewBasic for Windows, Linux, and Android.

  14. #574
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Considering that methodology they describe I'm not sure how well their counts for Java vs JavaScript or C vs C++ vs C# or even peanut butter vs chocolate might be.

    It's all smelled like contrived marketing, a medicine show, for a very long time.
    I agree. What they went for was the low hanging fruit: Automated searching. Therefore, the results have to be taken for what they are worth. I'd say that some broad trends can be taken from those results, such as C# vs VB, but even there you have to consider that there are multiple issues obscuring the meaning of those results. For one thing, VB.NET is too low due to the issues with the searching I mentioned earlier, while C# will have the same problem to a different extent. Furthermore, what do the results even mean? If more people ask about A than about B, it doesn't necessarily mean that A is more popular, it may mean that A is more confusing. So, it's a popularity contest where people aren't judged on popularity, but on some stand in metric that may or may not represent popularity.
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    There's a mercenary motive too: https://www.tiobe.com/tics/fact-sheet/

    Funny, the languages they support almost always come out near the top.

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    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    There's a mercenary motive too: https://www.tiobe.com/tics/fact-sheet/

    Funny, the languages they support almost always come out near the top.
    Sure, but that could be auto correlation. If you produce a tool that works with a variety of programming languages, it behooves you to support the most popular languages. So, it's no surprise that they support the languages they find to be at the top of their poll. Whether their poll reflects the languages they support, or they support the languages based on their poll, is almost an open question, except that I doubt anybody seriously disputes that the languages near the top of their poll are popular, and the languages near the bottom are not popular. It's just the order and relative magnitude that is debatable.
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by vbrad View Post
    For what's it's worth (not much probably), classic vb has dropped out of the top 20 on the TIOBE index for the first time.
    Classic Visual Basic is back in the March top 20.

    This is probably more to do with the vagaries of Tiobe's methodology. In reality there is unlikely to be much change in the popularity of languages over one month.

    More noticable is that VB.Net shows as being as popular as C# (and some months more popular). That can't be right. And both VB.Net and C# show as being several times more popular than JavaScript - clearly that is nonsense.

    For VB6 and VB.Net I'd suggest this forum is a better guide to their popularity.
    Last edited by VB6 Programming; Mar 5th, 2020 at 05:24 AM.

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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    VB6 is back in MY top 20 - that's all that matters.

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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    VB6 is back in MY top 20 - that's all that matters.
    Yes, still difficult to find anything better for Windows desktop development.

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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by VB6 Programming View Post
    Yes, still difficult to find anything better for Windows desktop development.
    I am now actively programming in both VB.NET and VB6 and VS/.NET 'feels' crippled in some way despite all of its advantages and improvements.

    Like the first version of a good film - VB6 just got it right and the later issues just did not hit the nail on the head.

  21. #581
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Funny, I felt the same way, but in the other direction.

    The Tiobe index is not a measure of popularity, and it does not have an entry for Classic VB or VB6. People who think there is one are misinterpreting the data.
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    I do VB6 and VB.NET, VB.NET (and learning B4X, very intersting for Android) has some quite very intersting advantages, but VB6 IDE is far more (and I retain my word) quicker to develop etc..
    I think the actual world is tryng to assist as much as possible all users, and VisualStudio 2019 is so slow when writing code due to all assistance.

    But this is where we are, we don't have too much choices

  23. #583
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by Thierry69 View Post
    I do VB6 and VB.NET, VB.NET (and learning B4X, very intersting for Android) has some quite very intersting advantages, but VB6 IDE is far more (and I retain my word) quicker to develop etc..
    I think the actual world is tryng to assist as much as possible all users, and VisualStudio 2019 is so slow when writing code due to all assistance.

    But this is where we are, we don't have too much choices
    Agreed

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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    NB : Some precision, I like VB6, and I can do nearly 99% of what I need to do, EXCEPT : Android, IOS, WEB app
    All the other need requirements I made them (quite powerfull one)

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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    The Tiobe index is not a measure of popularity, and it does not have an entry for Classic VB or VB6. People who think there is one are misinterpreting the data.
    Tiobe claim the index is "an indicator of the popularity of programming languages".

    The intention of the 'Visual Basic' entry in the Tiobe index is to show the popularity of VB6 and VBA (often referred to as 'Classic VB' - though VBScript and VB5 (and earlier) are excluded from this entry).

    And Tiobe do make an effort to weed out false positives. Amongst other things they check the first 100 pages of results from each of the 25 search engines used.

    Obviously the methodology used affects the results (as would any methodology). Tiobe's results favor languages that regularly have new releases (with a resultant surge in search hits) as opposed to languages such as VB6 (or Cobol or Fortran) which don't get such publicity.
    And possibly languages with more problems (therefore generating more posts) will appear as more popular.
    Though why JavaScript rates so low on Tiobe (other indexes typically have JS in the top 3) is a mystery, as is why VB.Net rates so highly.

    Of course, if you define popularity as being used "by many people" then VBA is probably the most popular programming language ever - Microsoft claim 1.2 billion users of Office, even if only 1% or 2% of those use VBA there would be 12-24 million users.

  26. #586
    PowerPoster Arnoutdv's Avatar
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Another VB6 alternative for the near future?

    Although there is nothing more then an information page...
    http://www.twinbasic.com/

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    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    That's really weird, frankly. The font and layout are a strange choice indicative of something, though it may be good...or bad. The lack of anything else for a project that is supposed to launch (without GUI support) next month?

    Worth a look, but one probably shouldn't get their hopes too high.
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    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Meh....I wouldn't get excited until there is something tangible to see. Wild claims like that about a new VB6 is nothing new. Nothing ever came of the previous ones. Maybe this time would be different. Maybe not. I wouldn't hold my breath.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

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  29. #589
    PowerPoster ChrisE's Avatar
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    in a couple of week's we will celebrate 2021
    who would have ever thought in 2002 when all signs from Microsoft were...
    sorry there won't be a VB7....

    and look VB6 it's still going
    to hunt a species to extinction is not logical !
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Hi guys, just wanted to pop in and say that I'm the guy behind TwinBasic that was mentioned here today. I assure you... it is a real product, and it's coming in January. I've just added the first of a series of videos to the website if you'd like to take another look. The next video will be demoing the debugger.

    Some of you may know me already as the guy behind vbWatchdog (EverythingAccess). If not, nice to meet you all anyway... if you have any questions, just let me know.

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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    This looks like the first effort in a while that makes some sense. I mean using VSCode for the IDE, debugger, etc.

    @WaynePhillipsEA: Is the compiler written in C# with the Rubberduck ANTLR parser? For how long have you been working on it?

    I'll surely be stalking https://twitter.com/WaynePhillipsEA

    cheers,
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    @wqweto I've been working on it for a few years now, as a side project of course, along with the work that pays the bills.

    Without Vscode, this project would be another year away at least to develop the editor, so I totally think this is the right way forward.

    The parser is written from scratch in pure C++, as is the compiler itself. It's already insanely fast, and I haven't properly optimised it yet.

    The vscode extension is written in JS. Thanks for your thoughts.
    Last edited by WaynePhillipsEA; Dec 18th, 2020 at 03:59 PM.

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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Cool, sounds legit :-))

    I've been interested in compilers/parsers for a very long time now -- VBLLVM, kscope, VbPeg

    Too bad this effort is not OSS as I'm entering my second Covid lockdown this year and the first one was a very fruitful one for my side projects :-))

    cheers,
    </wqw>

  34. #594
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by WaynePhillipsEA View Post
    Hi guys, just wanted to pop in and say that I'm the guy behind TwinBasic that was mentioned here today. I assure you... it is a real product, and it's coming in January. I've just added the first of a series of videos to the website if you'd like to take another look. The next video will be demoing the debugger.

    Some of you may know me already as the guy behind vbWatchdog (EverythingAccess). If not, nice to meet you all anyway... if you have any questions, just let me know.

    It's interesting. I was thinking that VSCode would have been perfect base for the revival of VB6 that's always being discussed around here. I didn't realize someone had already went ahead and did it. From the 2 minute video, it looks like quality work. I'm really impressed by this. You said this is 100% compatible with VB6/VBA code so I take it that the compiler uses COM at the back end for it's object model like VB6 does?
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Thanks @Niya. Yes, everything is COM based. I've literally got thousands of tests to ensure TwinBasic mimics the (often subtle) nuances that would trip up a naive compiler.

    100% backwards compatibility is the aim, but of course it will take a while to truly get there. I think (hope) you'll be pleasantly surprised at just how close the initial release gets to that target!

  36. #596
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    I look forward to testing it out. I'm sure it will be great.
    Treeview with NodeAdded/NodesRemoved events | BlinkLabel control | Calculate Permutations | Object Enums | ComboBox with centered items | .Net Internals article(not mine) | Wizard Control | Understanding Multi-Threading | Simple file compression | Demon Arena

    Copy/move files using Windows Shell | I'm not wanted

    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  37. #597
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Also, I'm curious. Why didn't you just use the VB6 compiler instead of writing your own? Wouldn't it have made the work go faster?
    Treeview with NodeAdded/NodesRemoved events | BlinkLabel control | Calculate Permutations | Object Enums | ComboBox with centered items | .Net Internals article(not mine) | Wizard Control | Understanding Multi-Threading | Simple file compression | Demon Arena

    Copy/move files using Windows Shell | I'm not wanted

    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    I really hope twinbasic will be successful!
    looking forward to see it in action next year!
    good luck!

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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    Also, I'm curious. Why didn't you just use the VB6 compiler instead of writing your own? Wouldn't it have made the work go faster?
    No, the VB6 compiler wouldn't have been suitable, unfortunately. With the VB6 compiler you don't have access to anything interesting (parse trees, symbol tables, etc) that is needed for a good IDE experience, plus offering an integrated debugger would have been impossible. Lots more reasons too, but ultimately a new compiler was an absolute necessity. It was worthwhile though... some of the new TwinBasic language features are really quite nice!

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    Dec 2020
    Posts
    203

    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Thanks @baka!

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