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    Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    I make a living from my apps written in VB6, it is the most important part of my bussiness. Becuase of that, since MS has threatened to drop support for vb6 I have been looking for a replacement. I have looked at almost every possible vb6 replacement that is cross platform.

    In recent weeks a fellow developer made me aware of PureBasic. A cross platform Basic style compiler and IDE. Event though im not an OOP disciple I did miss classes but luckily found a plugin SimpleOOP which integrates classes into PureBasic ( and along the way I now under stand how C++ evolved from c to include classes structs with vTables)

    The main thing the PureBasic GUI IDe is lacking is the RAD double clicking on a control to add code. Some of the BASIC syntax is a bit different but pretty close to vb6.

    Here is my point to bring this up to you guys.

    I encourage all to go have a look. I think (olaf correct me) that vbrichclient may even work in purebasic.

    I think if a simple gui plugin is written for easy event editing in GUI like VB6, purebasic could be the cross platform vb6 we have always wanted.

    We have a really BIG vb6 community here and I think if many of us moved to pureBasic, our obsolete issue will be solved, not to mention our dependence on MS.

    I do think if many of us are going to move to PureBasic it still needs one plugin to make it more like VB6, and that is the reason I am posting it here.

    Thanks for your time.

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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Where can I download the compiler source?

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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by DEXWERX View Post
    Where can I download the compiler source?
    you are concerned about future compatibility.. me too: I asked the question on their forum and it was addressed.

    http://www.purebasic.fr/english/view...hp?f=7&t=69944

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    VB-aholic & Lovin' It LaVolpe's Avatar
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by axisdj View Post
    you are concerned about future compatibility.. me too: I asked the question on their forum and it was addressed.
    lol, the bottom line: trust me it'll be there forever.

    No offense to Olaf and his work, but that this the same reason why I haven't played with his RC5 -- no source I know of and longevity not guaranteed. I don't doubt Olaf's knowledge and commitment.

    Crap happens. Just last year, I actually died for more than 5 minutes, but as you can guess, revived.
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by LaVolpe View Post
    Crap happens. Just last year, I actually died for more than 5 minutes, but as you can guess, revived.
    Oh my, so glad you are still with us...

    I think if enough o us moved to PB the author would make an official and set in stone commitment.

    I really think this is the closest we are going to get, and by all means it is so CLOSE.

    We may have to move to this not by choice when/if MS kills vb runtime in the OS

    WP

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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by LaVolpe View Post
    lol, the bottom line: trust me it'll be there forever.
    For the (current, VB6-based) RC5-implementation, this is actually quite true ("it will be there for as long as VB6-Apps will run on a Win-OS").

    Quote Originally Posted by LaVolpe View Post
    No offense to Olaf and his work, but that this the same reason why I haven't played with his RC5 -- no source I know of and longevity not guaranteed.
    Well, that position does not really make any sense to me, because when you're working against e.g. GDI+:
    - you have also "no source you know of" - and longevity is also not guaranteed (given the fact, that MS' new WPF or XAML-GUI-renderers all work against Direct2D).
    - now add to this the fact, that "MS is a vendor we just love to trust"
    - and compare it to: "the developer of the RC5 is a member of the VB-community, who wraps platform-independently usable OpenSource-libs"

    Quote Originally Posted by LaVolpe View Post
    I don't doubt Olaf's knowledge and commitment.
    Thanks, I guess...

    Let me ask you a few questions (which you hopefully will not avoid to answer):
    1) Do you see much of a future for VB6-based sources?
    2) If the answer to 1) is "no" (as I guess) - then what should experienced VB-users like you recommend to Newbies to invest their time into:
    2.1) learning more OpenSource-lib-APIs, especially when usable over comfortable COM-Classes (to be able to "apply this new learned stuff" also in other languages or on other platforms)
    2.2) or "just keep going" (learning Win32-APIs, which no other community on this planet is using in App-Code anymore, since everyone else is working through platform-abstracting frameworks)

    I guess you know, that I'm working on a platform-independent VB6-compiler, which will incorporate the RC5-Classes as its new runtime-class-library?
    But that is a bit beside the point (I know very well, that I have to show something in that regard at some point in time) -
    but even if the new compiler and new IDE will never come to pass - the above questions (1 to 2.2) are still valid ones.

    A last question (which I don't expect you to answer, but maybe it will make you (or dilettante for that matter)
    "go into yourself, and think".

    Could it be, that all the "objections" against the RC5 are:
    - not due to: "missing documentation" (which is not true at all, since there's extensive code-coverage with quite voluminous tutorials, if you'd only read it)
    - not due to: "big dependency": (because 2.5 MB regfree deployable extra-content in your App.zip is not really worth mentioning these days)
    - not due to: "what if it's abandoned" (because you will always have that "last working binary", which has less bugs and is 15years more recent than most of the MS-OCXes you currently use).
    - not due to: "there has to be some evil money-making-plan behind it" (because the RC5-libs are out there for free already for over a decade now, always freely available for everyone)
    But instead simply (if you're true to yourself):
    - a kind of: "not invented here"-effect which kicks in (though that's quite normal among "alpha males/devs" )
    - but also the obvious: "should I begin using this lib, I'm starting at point-zero and feel like a bloody beginner" (although developers of your caliber would climb really fast)

    Olaf

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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by LaVolpe View Post
    lol, the bottom line: trust me it'll be there forever.

    No offense to Olaf and his work, but that this the same reason why I haven't played with his RC5 -- no source I know of and longevity not guaranteed. I don't doubt Olaf's knowledge and commitment.

    Crap happens. Just last year, I actually died for more than 5 minutes, but as you can guess, revived.
    Is you a zombie?

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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Personally I would write my own Translator to C before I jumped to purebasic, but not everyone has that option.
    If I could earn enough money doing this, I would quite my job tomorrow. (of course "enough money" is different for everyone)

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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by DEXWERX View Post
    Personally I would write my own Translator to C before I jumped to purebasic, but not everyone has that option.
    If I could earn enough money doing this, I would quite my job tomorrow. (of course "enough money" is different for everyone)
    I would guess they have that bit more ironed out then what you could accomplish in a year or two.

    They have had cross platform capability since 2000.

    The thing is, it's easy to say that, but I think if we all get behind purebasic, or at least let them know we are here, they would steer the ship in a direction that would benefit us all, therin lies the main reason for my post.

    WP

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    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    It's an interesting problem: Until you have enough users, that set-in-mud commitment isn't forthcoming. Without that, a bunch of people are reluctant to become users.

    The reason I say set-in-mud rather than set-in-stone, is that we can all cite examples where a product was bought by a larger company (Xamarin, and for that matter, DOS) and the commitment is worth nothing.

    If you want stability, you need an ANSI standard language like C/C++...and few others. Even then, the technology may move out from under you. There are no guarantees in this business. At best, you make your choice and ride it as long as it lasts. At all times, you look to the future and guess which direction it will take and put a bet on your guess. We are all doing that, as the replies to this thread show.
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    VB-aholic & Lovin' It LaVolpe's Avatar
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Well, that position does not really make any sense to me, because when you're working against e.g. GDI+:
    - you have also "no source you know of" - and longevity is also not guaranteed
    I do know that if GDI+ is no longer supported, something else will be by MS. MS isn't going away and if it does, so does VB.

    If RC5 goes away or stops working, and you are no longer supporting it; then what? I'll never compare some closed source, homegrown utility, to MS DLLs on equal footing when I'm working on a MS system. And are you suggesting that none of your code is reliant on other sources: MS, open source, other homegrown DLLs, etc, etc? I doubt it and if so, very impressive. But if it is using those items, especially any MS DLLs, activeX (like ADO, FSO, etc), directly or indirectly by those other sources, then your argument for MS breaking applies to RC5 too, no?

    As for your questions, which I guess are aimed at me & dilletante. I'm not going to use your code without seeing the source since your code is home-grown. Simply not going to invest in it. That is the only reason. As for newbies, to each their own. Personally, I wouldn't suggest someone learn VB by relying on some closed source, homegrown, tool. However, I wouldn't be opposed to suggesting that anyone play with it, if they want to.

    Edited: When I said "seeing the source", I meant being able to modify the code for my needs when the need arises.
    Last edited by LaVolpe; Jan 18th, 2018 at 11:38 AM.
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by LaVolpe View Post
    I do know that if GDI+ is no longer supported, something else will be by MS.
    So what will happen to all the VB6-Apps, which have used UserControls or API-modules that internally are heavily dependent on GDI+?
    They break - and all the code will have to be re-written - and because everyone is so happy about that fact, they will of course use "the next MS-graphics-lib" to rewrite it with?

    The same thing just can't happen with the RC5 - because it's graphics-stuff is MS-independent (using the OpenSource-cairo-lib) and its Dlls are sitting right beside your executable.

    MS is known for "breaking or deprecating things" (there's enough examples for it in the past) -
    and I have a hard time to see, what this "outright devotion" to MS is founded upon.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaVolpe View Post
    MS isn't going away and if it does, so does VB.
    I'm not sure about either of the two parts above...
    - in my opinion (ARM-chips, Android and iOS - mobile trends, Web-trends) the long-term existence of MS is not a given
    - and VB has quite a good chance to survive (becoming a platform-independent thing)

    Still everyone and his aunt seems to be ignoring platform-independent libs - even if their advantages and their quite painless usage is demonstrated right here, in a lot of forum-threads.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaVolpe View Post
    If RC5 goes away or stops working, and you are no longer supporting it; then what?
    How should something like that happen, exactly?
    Nobody will make "your own downloaded RC5-copy" go away - it is right there on your dev-machine - and also "right there" beside your deployed App-executables.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaVolpe View Post
    I'll never compare some closed source, homegrown utility, to MS DLLs on equal footing when I'm working on a MS system.
    Right, one should not do that - since most of the RC5-Classes offer far better performance than the MS-alternatives
    and cannot break, when MS e.g. breaks GDI+ or ADO/Jet.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaVolpe View Post
    And are you suggesting that none of your code is reliant on other sources: MS, open source, other homegrown DLLs, etc, etc?
    It relies mainly on OpenSource-libs, which are compiled into a self-contained "flat-API-satellite-binary" (vb_cairo_sqlite.dll) which the vbRichClient5.dll then wraps in comfortable Classes.
    Sure, the RC5-code also contains a lot of "System-dll-Declares" (wrapping that code behind comfortable classes as well) -
    but that's Win32-API Dlls which are less likely to break.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaVolpe View Post
    But if it is using those items, especially any MS DLLs, activeX (like ADO, FSO, etc), then your argument for MS breaking applies to RC5 too, no?
    The SQLite-based JET-alternative does offer its own (quite compatible) replacements for Connection- and Recordset-Objects.
    And the cFSO-class is *not* using the "MS-FSO" underneath (it's a wrapper around the low-level System-File-APIs).

    Quote Originally Posted by LaVolpe View Post
    As for your questions, which I guess are aimed at me & dilletante.
    I'm not going to use your code without seeing the source since your code is home-grown.
    Well, you've avoided answering my questions (as expected).
    Now you focus on "home-grown" (which you already mentioned a few times).

    What exactly do you mean by that (it surely sounds like you have no trust in the tool you are using yourself!).

    I personally like this tool we have (a decent IDE and a decently fast 32bit native-compiler) - because it helps me
    avoid a whole lot of failure-categories, which are common with e.g. C/C++ development (less chances to forget
    "freeing something", less chances to "pass Zero-Pointers", less chances to "write into mem-areas you shouldn't write into".

    In my opinion, an experienced VB6-dev writes better and faster code, than the "average MS-developer".
    That's proven countless times (e.g. on VBSpeed, where the VB6-implemented replacements beat the pants off the MS-dev-implemented vbRuntime-Functions,
    or in the RC5-Collection-Classes, which are faster than MS-Collection or MS-Dictionary.

    So I guess it comes down to "who has grown something", wouldn't you say?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaVolpe View Post
    Personally, I wouldn't suggest someone learn VB by relying on some closed source, homegrown, tool.
    Yet you failed to support that "personal opinion" with valid reasoning -
    whilst on the other hand, I think I gave a lot of good reasons in my prior post, why "learning MS-COM-libs" or "learning MS-APIs" is a waste of time,
    (given the fact that there's a free available framework, which would teach you to swim also in "non-MS (or non-VB)"-waters when the time comes).

    I guess you should really try to answer the questions I asked earlier (if only for yourself) - and not "avoiding to even look at them".

    And I would like to hear about a good reason from you, why you apparently think that VB6-code,
    written agains RC5-libs is "less safe to use", when the exact opposite is true (compared to MS-libs).

    Olaf

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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    My boss and I frequently discuss our code starting with "If I were hit by a truck tomorrow..."

    We both feel that everything we have written would be thrown away. We write disposable software: Small LOB applications that take days to months to write. My boss wants to write (and is on his second version of) programs that allow non-programmers to create applications. He also feels that VB6 is too complicated, so he created his own language (it's available through Google, but I forget the name of it). However, he recognizes that nothing he has done has any staying power, as written, and will be gone as soon as he is. For that reason, he's now working on having his generator generate VB.NET code as well as his custom language. That gives it a modicum of potential longevity, but also gives him something to tinker with.

    The point is that most people have to deal with the question of perpetuation after their departure. If Olaf were to pass on to the great compiler in the sky tomorrow, RC5 would be what it is, static unchanging, and unchangeable unless the source is available AND there is somebody who is willing to take it on. Whether that is even an option is not entirely up to Olaf, or any of us. He can only do what he can. If the stars line up just right, nothing he does will matter.

    We all get to face that, and we all get to place a bet on the right course of action. Good luck with your bet, but I wouldn't be betting in favor of some large number of VB6 people moving to support a tiny company just because it has a language pretty similar to one they are familiar with. You would need an 'en masse' migration to feel confident about it, but the best you can hope for is likely just a slow trickle.
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    VB-aholic & Lovin' It LaVolpe's Avatar
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    So what will happen to all the VB6-Apps, which have used UserControls or API-modules that internally are heavily dependent on GDI+?
    They break - and all the code will have to be re-written - and because everyone is so happy about that fact, they will of course use "the next MS-graphics-lib" to rewrite it with?
    What will happen if cars are outlawed? React and overcome.

    Well, you've avoided answering my questions (as expected).
    Not really, think some questions honestly weren't worth answering. Not looking to get into an extended argument where neither of us are going to change our minds. You don't want to open RC5 but are happy basing most of it on open source. So be it. As stated, I'm not willing to invest time -- hence we are not going to change our minds. If your main selling point is that it is almost ADO compatible and doesn't use GDI/GDI+, then it's not much of a factor for me considering to invest time.

    And I would like to hear about a good reason from you, why you apparently think that VB6-code, written agains RC5-libs is "less safe to use", when the exact opposite is true (compared to MS-libs).
    Kinda hard to do that without seeing the code and/or spending countless hours learning something that I am not honestly interested in. At what point did I say it wasn't safe? Again, how could I even make that statement without using it? If you interpreted me saying that you may not be around forever as "not safe", then so be it.

    I get that you are proud of your tool. I get that you push it to every newbie that posts any questions regarding graphics and databases. I get that this forum has become your personal "RC5 Forum" due to the number of members experimenting and using your tool. But there are also many that simply aren't interested with it in the way it is presented and you can't convert us all
    Last edited by LaVolpe; Jan 18th, 2018 at 01:34 PM. Reason: fix typo which could've changed context
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by LaVolpe View Post
    What will happen if cars are outlawed? React and overcome.
    ...that's your response to all the valid questions I asked?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaVolpe View Post
    Not really, think some questions weren't worth answering honestly. Not looking to get into an extended argument ...
    All that "weaseling out" is quite disappointing.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaVolpe View Post
    Kinda hard to do that without seeing the code ...
    Yawn - that again (thought I already destroyed that line of reasoning of yours, with the fact that you're quite happily working against closed MS-libs...)

    Quote Originally Posted by LaVolpe View Post
    I get that you are proud of your tool.
    That goes without saying - but in my arguing so far I was trying to leave out the "emotional components" of the whole thing -
    ...think I've presented enough facts so far - whilst from your end I only read about "your feelz" (which in a technical forum
    are quite pointless).
    "Facts don't care about your feelings" (to cite "Mr. Shapiro" himself).

    Quote Originally Posted by LaVolpe View Post
    ... in the way it is presented ...
    Yeah - even "more feelz"...

    Ain't nobody in this forum interested in: "how to proceed"? -
    VB6 being on life-support currently - and 2024 not *that* far away anymore...

    As for your "react and overcome" battle-cry ... you mean to "take serious action" then, in 2024?
    How should a potential solution look like in your opinion?
    Not thought about it - not giving a damn?

    Well, I thought about it (already 10 years ago) - and I really try to provide a foundation which is able to carry
    (starting with new, modern runtime-classes).

    The fact that you dislike my efforts to get the VB6-community behind the idea "to help ourselves"
    (by saying things like "making it your RC5-forum") is baffling, really.

    God beware when VbForum-members start writing modern looking Apps today by using the free available Runtime-enhancements
    of a community member (outrageous, who has ever heard of such a thing) - and even worse - what if they all start to see,
    what the tool is really meant to be and possibly even manage to create a new VB-IDE and -compiler around that
    platform-independent stuff - that would be a horrible outcome, wouldn't it? (because "not invented here").

    Olaf

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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by LaVolpe View Post
    I get that you are proud of your tool. I get that you push it to every newbie that posts any questions regarding graphics and databases. I get that this forum has become your personal "RC5 Forum" due to the number of members experimenting and using your tool. But there are also many that simply aren't interested with it in the way it is presented and you can't convert us all
    I should probably stay far away from this debate, but what the heck. LaVolpe, thank you for saying that.

    As we all must, I must admit that my primary project is largely based on closed source (primarily the VB6 IDE, and Windows). However, both of those are provided by the third most valued brand on the planet. Just because of the huge unknown factor, I wouldn't dream of incorporating any additional closed source software into my project. Olaf, clearly, you've done some fascinating work, but how do we know that you're not logging RC5 activity, minimally (or possibly even extensively) "snooping" on us?

    Also, just to say it, I too sometimes feel that this is the VBForums_RC5 forums. I've been shot down for providing links to DOC, OCX, KB updates, and other "binary" files I've placed on my website, but you seem to routinely "get away with it". That's always puzzled me.

    At times, I wonder why they don't just create you a separate RC5 forum, similar to the Xamarin, or Database Development, or ASP forums. Or, even more to the point, why don't you have your own forum on your website?

    @LaVolpe: Sorry to jump into your discussion. It was just too opportune a time to express a few thoughts I've had for some time.

    @Olaf: Again, I see you as a very talented programmer. IMHO, your personality is somewhat grumpy and defensive around the edges, and you're ready to pounce when someone makes the smallest of mistakes. But I do believe you provide a great deal of value to the VB6 community. And, truth be told, you're not hawking RC5 in every single post you make.

    I truly do wish you good health and happiness,
    Elroy
    Any software I post in these forums written by me is provided "AS IS" without warranty of any kind, expressed or implied, and permission is hereby granted, free of charge and without restriction, to any person obtaining a copy. To all, peace and happiness.

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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by Elroy View Post
    As we all must, I must admit that my primary project is largely based on closed source (primarily the VB6 IDE, and Windows).
    However, both of those are provided by the third most valued brand on the planet.
    A brand which has already proven "to not really care" about your code-investments -
    its remaining support for at least the VB6-runtimes is running out in 2014 (that along with "several code breaks" in the last years should give you pause).
    But I'm repeating myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elroy View Post
    ...how do we know that you're not logging RC5 activity, minimally (or possibly even extensively) "snooping" on us?
    You know that, because the RC5 is in use in thousands of App-Installations and on hundreds of developer-PCs at this moment.
    If I'd be doing any "phoning home", then I'd have to use sockets at some time - and there's enough "paranoid" devs or admins
    out there, who run packet-sniffers or "firewall-filters" who'd report such an attempt.
    The fact that in over a decade no such thing was reported from anywhere or anyone should give you a "warm and fuzzy feeling" I guess -
    and thanks for your trust into a fellow community-member BTW.

    Well, there is a vendor (wasn't it the "third most valued brand on the planet") who takes your "privacy" very seriously
    (when you look at all the "Opt-Out-settings" MS stuff their Win10-OS with.

    As said further above already, that "grade of devotion" is just baffling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elroy View Post
    Also, just to say it, I too sometimes feel that this is the VBForums_RC5 forums.
    Why is it a bad thing, to point out how things can be done with less coding-efforts?
    That's what I'd want to read in a developer-forum - new approaches to (often) old things or to "challenging things",
    which not only require less code - but are also unicode-aware, avoid DPI-issues and "look better".

    I'm quite astonished about the stance you take here, because we might have our differences in recent discussion -
    but when it comes to programming and efficient coding, I always judged you to be "eager to learn new things".

    Quote Originally Posted by Elroy View Post
    ...you're ready to pounce when someone makes the smallest of mistakes.
    Yep, because that what makes up a good forum (reliable information).
    I strongly encourage you, to "pounce hard on me", as soon as I post some nonsense.

    BTW, what about you trying to answer a few of the questions I've posted further above
    (since LaVolpe and dilettante are trying very hard, to avoid them).

    What's *your* longtime-plan with regards to the future?

    Olaf

  18. #18
    PowerPoster Elroy's Avatar
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmidt View Post
    What's *your* longtime-plan with regards to the future?
    Well, okay, I'll admit it. It's definitely something that rattles around in the back of my head. I certainly "pay attention" to threads like this that might actually be proposing some viable alternatives.

    But, truth be told, I just don't see Microsoft as ever truly abandoning the 32-bit COM architecture. And, truth be told, they themselves are still selling a substantial amount of software that is dependent on it, most notably, the VBA macro engines of their 32-bit Office products.

    Worst case, I might have to quit updating some development machine to keep the VB6 IDE running. But I haven't even had to do that so far.

    With respect to "Microsoft support", I've never been one of those guys who listened to the music on the phone (both literally and metaphorically), trying to get support. I've always been a "beat my head against the wall until it crumbles" kind of guy, dealing with the associated headaches.

    But that's just speaking to me. And really, the better point is a discussion about the future of my primary project. It is used and highly valued by quite a few people, and I'd hate to see that blown out of the water, even after I possibly find a way out of the continuing support and development of it.

    However, this project has become so involved and comprehensive through the years, and I've done things that just soooo tightly tie it to VB6, I just don't see any way out of using the VB6 IDE. I can still get hot-under-the-collar about Microsoft not providing a more direct migration path to .NET. In fact, if they really wanted to do things correctly, they would have supported both the COM and managed code approaches in their more recent IDEs. Someone in their language department, with a large degree of power, got a GOD complex (thinking they'd "teach us to program"), and screwed us over.

    Actually, I suppose that's one of your points, and it's well taken. However, as already stated, I've just become way too tied to VB6's idiosyncrasies to contemplate trying to jump ships. It's truly an incredible RAD in my hands, and, at my age, it's assured that no other IDE will ever be as pliable and fruitful as VB6 to me.

    I think I'll leave it there.

    Best Regards,
    Elroy
    Any software I post in these forums written by me is provided "AS IS" without warranty of any kind, expressed or implied, and permission is hereby granted, free of charge and without restriction, to any person obtaining a copy. To all, peace and happiness.

  19. #19
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmidt View Post
    A brand which has already proven "to not really care" about your code-investments
    Didn't really wanna get involved in this shitstorm but this statement is patently false and highly misleading. MS devotes a tremendous amount of effort to backward compatibility. I remember reading an article some 7 to 10 years ago about the insane lengths MS was going to keep stuff working as they released new and newer versions of Windows. You can say a lot of bad things about MS but their commitment to backward compatibility is not one of them.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    A brand which has already proven "to not really care" about your code-investments...
    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    ... this statement is patently false and highly misleading.
    It is not - for the following reasons:
    - I wrote "has proven" -> past tense (at the time they abandoned VB6, there were absolutely *no* statements for years, that they intended to support at least the runtimes till 2024)
    - abandoning (deprecating) an entire language without a viable upgrade-path was *devaluing* millions of man-years of development-efforts across the globe (unheard of, on that scale)
    - I have personally had my self questioned, which language my solution was based on, and anwering truthfully had the effect that I had to underprice my products to remain "in the game"
    - "arguing" that VB6-solutions will "probably work for a few years still" (because of MS's "huge efforts with backward-compatibilitiy") would only have caused a "mild smile" on the side of these customers

    So, no - I stand by what I wrote above.

    Professional Software-Development is for the most part "investment of time" (a highly priced resource, because the people who invest that time professionally, are educated, highly skilled ones).
    And these code- (and thus time-)investments will pay off only in the long-run (we often talk decades here, not weeks or months as in other branches).
    A Vendor who provides a commercially sold language, which is the base for all these huge investments, has a responsibility which is also not comparable to "other industries", end of story.
    (especially when we talk about the "most successful language on the planet" (at that time having about 6Mio users).

    Simple calculation of what I mean? - here we go (incorporating only 10% of these 6Mio developers as professionals - and thus "most affected by the abandoning"):

    Invested man-years of these 600,000 Pros (assuming 3 years of "working hard" on a product on average):
    600,000 professionals * 3 man-years = 1,800,000 professional man-years invested

    Monetary value of the above calculated 1.8Mio man-years (assuming a real conservative average of $50,000 per man-year):
    1.8Mio man-years * $50,000 per man-year = $90,000,000,000 (90 Billion Dollars)

    Expected ROI for these invested "monetary expressed man-year-efforts" - perhaps with a marge of 30%?
    90 Billion Dollars * 1.3 = 117 Billion Dollars.

    Now we could all "argue felicitously" about the "average rate" that expected "total ROI" was devalued
    (by either not being able to sell ones VB6-solution(s) anymore, or by having to offer prices with next to no profit-margin).

    But the resulting sum which was "lost" (to "us") is still in the two-digit-Billions!

    Any insurance-company (or bank) who'd have tried a stunt in that dimension (devaluing the investments of their customers in that magnitude - and without need!)
    would have seen a "sh..t-storm" with no end.

    Aside from that, "lost trust" is a personal (subjective) thing - no real need to argue about it - but at least I've tried to back my position up with a few numbers.

    Olaf
    Last edited by Schmidt; Jan 24th, 2018 at 02:27 PM.

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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by Elroy View Post
    I should probably stay far away from this debate, but what the heck. LaVolpe, thank you for saying that.

    As we all must, I must admit that my primary project is largely based on closed source (primarily the VB6 IDE, and Windows). However, both of those are provided by the third most valued brand on the planet. Just because of the huge unknown factor, I wouldn't dream of incorporating any additional closed source software into my project. Olaf, clearly, you've done some fascinating work, but how do we know that you're not logging RC5 activity, minimally (or possibly even extensively) "snooping" on us?

    Also, just to say it, I too sometimes feel that this is the VBForums_RC5 forums. I've been shot down for providing links to DOC, OCX, KB updates, and other "binary" files I've placed on my website, but you seem to routinely "get away with it". That's always puzzled me.

    At times, I wonder why they don't just create you a separate RC5 forum, similar to the Xamarin, or Database Development, or ASP forums. Or, even more to the point, why don't you have your own forum on your website?

    @LaVolpe: Sorry to jump into your discussion. It was just too opportune a time to express a few thoughts I've had for some time.

    @Olaf: Again, I see you as a very talented programmer. IMHO, your personality is somewhat grumpy and defensive around the edges, and you're ready to pounce when someone makes the smallest of mistakes. But I do believe you provide a great deal of value to the VB6 community. And, truth be told, you're not hawking RC5 in every single post you make.

    I truly do wish you good health and happiness,
    Elroy

    Since I'm already a spec on the floor here I will venture into this as gracefully as I can.

    Personally, I think you ALL have valid points.

    And I will admit that, although I do detect that Olaf gets frustrated with me (or my posts...not sure which, maybe both?) but I remain a big fanboy of his. I'll just swallow my pride and trudge on.

    A couple of decades ago or so I was posting on a vb newsgroup extensively when first designing a SQLITE backed application (still in use today and indispensable to me).

    There were two individuals that provided me with extensive help on that newsgroup and I'm forever grateful:

    Olaf was one (SQLITE) and someone named Michael I recall (GRAPHICS). I was pleased to find that Olaf was still active (here) when years later I had to return to vb6 to update one of my old charting apps.

    With that said, I would love it if there was a dedicated RC5/RC6/Cairo forum here.

    I'm jumping all over the place trying to find tidbits of information among of tsunami of data.

    On another note, I'm REALLY grateful to those who take the time to answer my dimwitted questions, like Elroy, JbPro, Niya and others (sorry for not dropping all the names).

    So thank you!

    I'm surprised to read that some are allowed to provide links and some are not (as you say). I'd like to have access to everything personally.

    Hopefully everything will work out. And again, you got my vote for a dedicated forum for the RC stuff. It's big enough apparently. :-)

  22. #22
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    If there's another olaf fanboy out there like you, I hope he's written a user guide for rc5. I'm really frustrated by it. I'm hoping to integrate it into a project, and I'm quite green with graphics stuff so the jargon is already unfamiliar. I had a few email exchanges with olaf, and I'm afraid I couldn't understand the concepts he was describing. He's German, and his English is way better than my German, but it still makes no sense. I've run his demo programs and seen the effects they produce, and it's exactly what I need, but there isn't any support. A forum would be of huge benefit to me.

  23. #23
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by GJChurchward View Post
    If there's another olaf fanboy out there like you, I hope he's written a user guide for rc5. I'm really frustrated by it. I'm hoping to integrate it into a project, and I'm quite green with graphics stuff so the jargon is already unfamiliar. I had a few email exchanges with olaf, and I'm afraid I couldn't understand the concepts he was describing. He's German, and his English is way better than my German, but it still makes no sense. I've run his demo programs and seen the effects they produce, and it's exactly what I need, but there isn't any support. A forum would be of huge benefit to me.
    This thread may help -
    https://www.vbforums.com/showthread....-vbRichClient5

  24. #24
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by GJChurchward View Post
    If there's another olaf fanboy out there like you, I hope he's written a user guide for rc5. I'm really frustrated by it. I'm hoping to integrate it into a project, and I'm quite green with graphics stuff so the jargon is already unfamiliar. I had a few email exchanges with olaf, and I'm afraid I couldn't understand the concepts he was describing. He's German, and his English is way better than my German, but it still makes no sense. I've run his demo programs and seen the effects they produce, and it's exactly what I need, but there isn't any support. A forum would be of huge benefit to me.
    Well, I don't think we'll ever see a user guide.

    However, here's my collection of OLAF comments related to rc5/rc6 (currently 224 pages).

    I'm still adding to it.

    :-)

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/e2xhozvm88...lient.pdf?dl=0

  25. #25
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Question: MS does not pre-install VB5 runtime, whereas VB6 runtime is included. But it does not necessary mean VB5 won't run as you "just" need to include the missing stuff. This may also happen to VB6? If so it does not mean it's not runnable.
    Because the COM stuff might work forever I guess like written in stone.
    However, only when DEP (data execution prevention) might go against this will be the end for VB6. (?)
    And of course if 32 bit is dropped, which I see very unlikely as 64 is far before being reaching it's limit, so there is no need for higher bits and drop of 32 bit. (As happened with 16 bits by going to 64 bits)

  26. #26
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by Krool View Post
    Question: MS does not pre-install VB5 runtime, whereas VB6 runtime is included. But it does not necessary mean VB5 won't run as you "just" need to include the missing stuff. This may also happen to VB6? If so it does not mean it's not runnable.
    Deploying msvbvm60.dll on your own would certainly be an option -
    but I think that until 2024, MS will in all likelihood keep it included with their OSes which support 32Bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krool View Post
    Because the COM stuff might work forever I guess like written in stone.
    Yep, as long as MS-Office is nearly completely COM-based (as it is today), we have no reason to worry about its supporting libs (like Ole32 and OleAut).
    As soon as MS announces something like: "a new, leaner Office - now running completely JavaScript-based", we should probably start worrying on that front.
    (the "JS-basedness" is not that "far off" as one might think, because they already *have* a quite well-working Implementation, which runs Browser-based -
    and now that WebAssembly is supported throughout all larger Desktop- and Mobile-Browsers, we will see "new, speedier JS-versions" of all kind
    of so far "conventionally implemented" Javascript-frameworks soon).

    Quote Originally Posted by Krool View Post
    And of course if 32 bit is dropped, which I see very unlikely as 64 is far before being reaching it's limit, so there is no need for higher bits and drop of 32 bit. (As happened with 16 bits by going to 64 bits)
    In my opinion, that will be exactly the angle they will be pursuing (with regards to "getting rid of old legacy stuff").
    The newer versions of their Server-OSes already have the "32Bit-SYSWOW-layer" as an install-choice/option -
    the new "Nano-Server" image comes in 64Bit only.

    But such a change will have to be proposed with a longer "deprecation-period" I guess (when it comes to Desktop-OSes).
    But as said, IMO we are safe until 2024 - but I'd like it, when the VB-community has "something to show" already in 2022.

    What might happen in the "interim" is probably "another TypeLib-break here or there" - or another COM-lib which
    "falls out of support" (e.g. MS-XML3 being such a cadidate) - or a few "MessageFlow-changes" in the CommonControls,
    which might break things - and of course the "GUI-stuff" which in its modern incarnations (across the current dev-tool-chains),
    recommends to use the Direct2D-based rendering-engines.
    (e.g. .NET WinForms, which makes use of GDI+ and the CommonControls, is already considered "legacy stuff", so I guess
    we should keep an open ear, should they announce a: "re-implementation of the System.Drawing-namespaces behind the existing interfaces"
    (because that would mean, that they've thrown out GDI+ from .NET).

    Olaf

  27. #27

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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    AS THE SMOKE CLEARS LET ME SAY THIS.

    I am extremely thankful for what Olaf has done. The fact that he provides his framework for free has been amazing. Using vbrichclient has made me a better developer and olaf has been so helpful in a respects. If I can trust MS to keep the vb6 runtime working on windows I can trust Olaf will do his best as well.

    Even Lavolope and others on this forum also have been a great help and to all I am VERY thankful.

    I hope we all can find common ground to aid in the ultimate solution what ever it is.

    Please guys, you all are extremely intelligent and gifted people ( hence the clashing words )

    My initial post was just the next in my attempt to make a go of it. My love for vb6 has allowed me to make a living doing what I love. I am really just trying to find a solution to the inevitable death of vb6 and all the years of hard work I and all on this forum have done.

    Again I cannot thank Olaf enough for all he has done. please continue in the capacity you can.

  28. #28
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Well, you can always start your own support forum site.

    https://youtu.be/oQLg3rcV-Is?t=4m35s

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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Well, you can always start your own support forum site.
    Why should I - when the community is right here? (at least what's left of it).

    "Two guys who don't care about the future of VB6" are of no consequence really.

    Olaf

  30. #30
    VB-aholic & Lovin' It LaVolpe's Avatar
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Weasel? Wow, just because I won't try your tool. Hit a nerve? Go ahead and post your final comments. I won't be reading them. One of us needs to take the high road.
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    Read the HitchHiker's Guide to Getting Help on the Forums.
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    {Alpha Image Control} {Memory Leak FAQ} {Unicode Open/Save Dialog} {Resource Image Viewer/Extractor}
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  31. #31
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by LaVolpe View Post
    Weasel? Wow, just because I won't try your tool.
    "Weasel" as in "avoiding all the serious questions I asked" (not really polite that).

    And no, the fact that you personally aren't "trying it" is of no consequence in the long run.

    Olaf

  32. #32
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    @Olaf: If 2024 is end of VB6 how do you plan to support RC5 beyond that point?

    I'm interested to hear about this custom VB compiler in the making, closed source again?

    cheers,
    </wqw>

  33. #33
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by wqweto View Post
    If 2024 is end of VB6 how do you plan to support RC5 beyond that point?
    As you already guessed, by a new compiler of course, which is fully VB6-compatible (though only recognizing
    *.bas and *.cls modules, but within these supporting the exact same "structs" as e.g. Variant and SafeArray,
    so that even the "old pointer-based hacks" which surround these types will work as before - Strings will remain
    BStrings (16Bit WChars with a "left-shifted" length-pointer, probably requiring some extra-efforts for Unix and
    other OSes, where WChars are 64Bit, should I rely on the builtin-C-compiler-magic).

    Since RC5 is based on "only *.bas and *.cls", the first thing I will stress the new compiler with,
    will be the recompilation of the vbRichClient5.vbp (still as a true COM-lib, but in 32 and 64Bit versions).

    If that works, the (hopefully already started and nearly completed new IDE ) should be
    recompilable as well (when we restrict ourselves, to only use RC5-Classes to implement its GUI, which
    is no hindrance at all in larger Apps, as this example here shows which has only an RC5-dependency in its project-settings):
    http://www.vbforums.com/showthread.p...ed-Icon-Editor

    But "that's the plan" (in "fast-forward", skipping a lot of details).

    Quote Originally Posted by wqweto View Post
    I'm interested to hear about this custom VB compiler in the making, closed source again?
    At the moment, yes of course - if you'd be willing to contribute (which I hope), then I would send you the sources,
    or a link to a private BitBucket-repo.

    What I want to avoid at this point (already quite far in the plan), is "scattering" - because as you see
    from the discussion here, there is quite a lot of "emotional" responses going on, especially from those
    who could have been of help in the project (the goddamn "not invented here" syndrome being in full swing).

    I don't know how many mailinglists and forums you follow (I read a lot of posts in C-based mailinglists as e.g.
    SQLite, also the tcc-mailinglist, the FreeBasic-forum, JavaScript-forums, SAP-forums (for their OpenUI5-stuff)
    and a few UseNet-groups as well (heck. for 5 years I followed even the Linux-Kernel- and Wine-Lists).

    I guess what I'm trying to say is, that I have a lot more "background" than I'm showing here currently -
    and a lot more experience with "what works" with OpenSource-Projects and what is "likely to fail"
    (also considered from the "psychological angle", because I've had to read all kinds of responses from a
    whole lot "passionately arguing people" in hundreds of thousands of postings over the last 20 years).

    What would fail is - for example, when I (or we) would release the Compiler too early.
    (to early, meaning: "before the IDE and the new Runtime is fully playing together as a presentable whole").

    Because what would happen then is, that "other devs who have the capabilities" would
    immediately "start to implement their own ideas" - and if that's not met with: "great, I include it",
    the "forking-war" would start (sometimes "out of spite", sometimes out of "hurt ego", you name it)...

    Since you read the tcc-list as well - do you remember the big "hubbub" in the tcc-list around the
    complaints of Rob Landley? The whole thing nearly torpedoed this nice project, until Grischka
    managed finally, to keep things going again: https://www.landley.net/code/tinycc/

    I have no mind at all, to "suffer such nonsense" in a project I've literally invested whole man-years into.
    And believe me, stuff like that would happen - especially seeing the recent reactions to my ongoing efforts here.

    Also FreeBasic (where I hang around often) - a nice compiler - but they "failed" with regards to
    "providing a complete runtime-lib, including advanced GUI-stuff and Widgets, maintained along with the compiler".

    What then happened was "re-inventing the wheel with regards to advanced GUI-stuff any two months" (or so it felt like).
    The result ... no real "standard-GUI" which one is able to refer to or rely on in FreeBasic-examples - dozens of
    abandoned "My new FreeBasci-GUI"-attempts to implement something nice - all failing so far (the one currently
    in the making has better chances, since former PowerBasic-guru Jose Roca recently joined forces with Paul Squires):
    http://www.planetsquires.com/protect...php?board=39.0

    But that new stuff (although well-implemented) is "Windows only" (CommonControl-based. like Krools) - and thus another
    failed attempt at providing the nice (platform-independent) FreeBasic-compiler with an equally platform-indepdendent
    GUI-framework (as the RC5 already is, underneath).

    So - yeah - hopefully I didn't "bore you to death" so far... because there's more to read in the link below...

    Why I ruled out FreeBasic as a potential compiler, was (among other things) this failing discussion here
    (recommended reading, till the last of my replies there, if you want to get a rough impression about
    how I want to solve the problem of "Dlls compiled as COM-libs under Linux and other non-MS-OSes).
    https://www.freebasic.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24901

    Olaf

  34. #34
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmidt View Post

    Because what would happen then is, that "other devs who have the capabilities" would
    immediately "start to implement their own ideas" - and if that's not met with: "great, I include it",
    the "forking-war" would start (sometimes "out of spite", sometimes out of "hurt ego", you name it)...

    I have no mind at all, to "suffer such nonsense" in a project I've literally invested whole man-years into.
    And believe me, stuff like that would happen - especially seeing the recent reactions to my ongoing efforts here.

    Olaf
    I fully support this point of view. Furthermore, open source to some people means, "you work for me....for free." Everybody has to make their own decisions on this based on what is right for them.

    However, MS won't die as easily as a single person does. If you are proud of this work, do you release it in your will, or does it die with you?

    I would say that there is a fair amount of passion around RC5 and this subject. I'd have trimmed some sniping out of an earlier post had I not been elsewhere. Because of the many users of RC5, removing mention of it is absurd, but there is a limit that we do try to enforce when it comes to linking to external sites with compiled code, and uploading compiled binaries is not allowed.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  35. #35

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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Olaf,

    what is your take on PureBasic?

    WP

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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by axisdj View Post
    Olaf,

    what is your take on PureBasic?
    Never used it - looked at it a few years ago - and just now again (a bit) - it still seems a lot like FreeBasic (which is free and OpenSource).
    GUI- and IDE-wise there's an advantage with PureBasic (although the EventHandling of GUI-controls seems a bit "old-fashioned").

    Classes don't support Events as available in VB6 (CallBack-Objects or -Functions have to be passed).
    The runtime is not really Class-based - instead there's "more than 1000 functions" built into the language itself as it seems
    (not really to my taste that - and quite the same as with FreeBasic, which has a similar volume of "Flat language functions").

    The Class-support (somewhat easier now, due to the pre-processor you mentioned),
    will (due to its nature - but correct me if I'm wrong) probably not allow any step-by-step
    debugging through the Methods of a given Class (probably not even allow breakpoints in the ClassCode of SimpleOOP).

    For me the most important thing in a good (RAD-like) IDE is advanced debugging-support (followed by IntelliSense).
    I'd test PureBasic in that regard thoroughly.

    I'd consider Delphi (as well as Lazarus) as being "more capable" - did you not make an attempt with these as well, some time ago?

    If you abandoned them for some "good reason", I guess you will abandon PureBasic for basically
    the same one - as soon as you start porting some "really serious stuff" over from your current VB6-App.

    Would like to know, how well a serious porting-effort went (and also if it didn't work out as well as you thought of course)...

    Olaf

  37. #37
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    http://www.yfvb.com/soft-48.htm
    visualfreebasic,best for you

  38. #38
    Lively Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
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    67

    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Chrome considers the file dangerous, but it is because of the Chinese text.

    If you decompress in a folder on the desktop, give a short name without space like "VFB"

    Name:  Link_VFB.jpg
Views: 752
Size:  37.3 KB

  39. #39
    PowerPoster
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    Jan 2020
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    download:https://github.com/xiaoyaocode163/VisualFreeBasic

    You clicked on a high-speed download. In China, this is usually an advertising link, and may also carry some malicious plug-ins.Our general situation is to click the normal download link below.
    Last edited by xiaoyao; Jan 30th, 2020 at 12:29 PM.

  40. #40
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    Jun 2012
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Nice said Elroy. I kind of agree with your statements.
    Well, VB6 is not so RAD anymore as it was before as you need quite some few extra stuff to keep rolling, but it works out so far.

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