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Thread: Live Chat - Let's Do It!

  1. #1

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    Post Live Chat - Let's Do It!

    Let's try something new!

    This Wednesday at 2:00 Eastern, 11:00am Pacific, and some other time for the rest of the world, I'm going to attempt the first LIVE CHAT. While this will carry the CodeGuru name, many people on this forum know that Codeguru and VBForums are managed by the same company (QuinStreet), and by me. As such, I expect many of the VBForums members will be interested in the topics.

    This will be structured chat that we will do on the third Wednesday of every month if it works. Additionally, if this live activity works, then we'll try out some other cool, live interactive things as well.

    I'm going to follow the approach that eWeek (our sister site) has used for chats. We'll have a topic -- for this month it will be "Does Visual Basic Have a Future?" The chat will center around the topic. I'll have a number of questions ready around this topic that we can use to frame the discussion. In general, the approach will be six core questions, with one posted every 10 minutes. Of course, if the topic veers off course, but is good, then we'll be flexibly. If you have questions you'd like to see on an upcoming topic, send them to me in advance! If you have a topic you'd like to see us cover, post here or send it to me in advance!

    The plan is to try to make these discussions interesting and potentially fun. These work best, however, the more people that attend them! I picked the first topic especially for the VBForums crowd, and I know there will be many strong opinions!

    I also know June is a rough month to start something like this (the eWeek chat last week had very few participants and they are established in doing these chats). Hopefully the nice weather and vacations doesn't give us a slow start! You can help by joining!

    Sound like something you'd join?

    To participate, you'll need a Twitter handle. You simply tweet with a hashtag to particpate. For a couple of links to Tweet Chat pages where you can follow the conversation easier, see http://www.codeguru.com/chats/ . The tools linked on that page automatically add the hash tag. You can also use Twitter tools like TweetDeck, but you have to remember to use the hashtag.

    We are using #CodeGuruChat as the hashtag. Feel free to pass the word!

    Again, the first topic is, Does Visual Basic Have a Future?
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    MS SQL Powerposter szlamany's Avatar
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    Re: Live Chat - Let's Do It!

    I clicked on that codeguru chats link you have in your post and when I click on your twitter handle link it goes to an odd place.

    Editing whiz?

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    Re: Live Chat - Let's Do It!

    D'oh! That's what happens when you do "Google-coding". I failed to replace a key piece of the code I copied.....

    It will be fixed as soon as cache refreshes! Thanks for letting me know!

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    Re: Live Chat - Let's Do It!

    No tweeter account here and I'll be on the road to LAX. Otherwise I would attend. Interested to read afterwards.
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    Re: Live Chat - Let's Do It!

    No tweeter account here and I'll be on the road...to a place so remote it's not worth mentioning, otherwise I would attend. I'm interested in what comes up and how it turns out.
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    Re: Live Chat - Let's Do It!

    Same here. Never had a need for Tweeting. In the hospital for a stay soon.
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    Re: Live Chat - Let's Do It!

    Hey guys.... Now you have a reason to get a Twitter handle! If for no other reason than to join chats!
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    Re: Live Chat - Let's Do It!

    Hmm. Looks like I'm not the only one without a Twitter thing.

    Makes me think...is it the 'older set' that sees no need for twitter, or is there some other segment? Can you tweet venn diagrams?
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    Re: Live Chat - Let's Do It!

    Yes, these are modern times, you can tweet Venn Diagrams....

    Now with the advent of a tweet chat, you have a reason to get a twitter handle!

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    Re: Live Chat - Let's Do It!

    But I dont have time to "chat" lol
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    Re: Live Chat - Let's Do It!

    Quote Originally Posted by RobDog888 View Post
    But I dont have time to "chat" lol
    Ah, but the nice thing about tweet chats is that you can follow them and chime in a bit, but also work on other things at the same time since it is all online!

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    Re: Live Chat - Let's Do It!

    I clicked on teh links and see a bunch of tweeks but only questions repeated, no conversations. Guess Im too old school :shrug:
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    Re: Live Chat - Let's Do It!

    Nope.... First chat was a failure. Nobody chatted, so it was just me talking to myself. A number of people had asked that we try doing a live event, but alas, none showed up.

    Having said that, I'm not going to give it up. eWeek did a chat last week and it only had about 2 people attend. They normally have quite a few. A few local meetings, including one I run, also have had horrible attendance this last week or two. I am going to peg it to the summer month.

    You aren't too old school.

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    Re: Live Chat - Let's Do It!

    Oh good and bad lol.

    Why does it have to be tweatted? I have enough social media going on as it is and cant keep up. Do you think it would get better participation if it was a different media?
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    MS SQL Powerposter szlamany's Avatar
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    Re: Live Chat - Let's Do It!

    Twitter has benefits and doesn't need much attention. Follow just a few of your local news organizations - maybe follow things you are interested in (in my case Nasa and other various physical science stuff).

    Follow Brad - cause why not.

    If any of these folks tweet something interesting I might see it if I happen to be on Twitter at that time - or if I feel the need to review the tweets on my feed from the past 3 days of not logging in (I rarely do).

    When something huge happens you can just hop on twitter and see what is posting around the world related to xyz.

    No reason in the world to not have a twitter account.

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    Re: Live Chat - Let's Do It!

    We could go back to doing the 'slow chat' type thing we've done on the forums, but that defeats the idea of 'live'. To be honest, it is kind of surprising the number of tech/developer types that are saying they don't have a twitter handle.

    By doing it using tweets, it actually as a few benefits....

    First, Twitter handles are pretty common..... It is surprising that many of you don't have one.

    Second, Using hashtags is the current, modern means of interacting in real-time and providing direct feedback. Even network TV does it. Granted, Facebook is starting to snipe into this area, but it hasn't taken it over yet.

    Third, It is flexible. While you have to have a twitter handle to post, there are a multitude of programs that can be used to both tweet or follow a discussion. This can be sites like the two I've listed, it can be simply going to twitter.com (which I'm not sure many people actually do), or it can be using an app such as TweetDeck.

    Fourth, Twitter is publicly accessible. While we could all agree to be on VBForums at the same time, only those on VBForums would know what is going on. Tweets are actually a lot more public, which in the long run can draw more people into a conversation.


    This is a fast, off-the-cuff response. I'm sure there are other reasons both for and against doing a tweetchat. We could have done a Google Hangout instead, but I"m guessing even fewer people would have been able to tap into that. (And yeah, I've been bantering around doing a few Google Hangouts where we pull in a panel to discuss a topic.)

    Brad!

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    Re: Live Chat - Let's Do It!

    Quote Originally Posted by szlamany View Post
    When something huge happens you can just hop on twitter and see what is posting around the world related to xyz.
    (or even small things)

    I'm surprised you (Rob) aren't following hashtags when you are at your car events....

    There are also those "Did they really kill Jon Snow" moments (hashtag #GoT), where you want to see other people's reactions to an event at the moment it happens.....
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    Frenzied Member Gruff's Avatar
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    Re: Live Chat - Let's Do It!

    I don't twitter I chitter.

    I am not a fan of social media.
    I try to get my emails out of the way each morning.
    Can't say how many tons of crap I wade through to get to business mail.

    I guess I feel that if I had Twitter, Facebook, Google Hangout, ect... I wouldn't get much real work done.
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    Re: Live Chat - Let's Do It!

    I'm wondering if lack of participation may answer the topic of discussion?

    I'm sure that the [stereotypical] silicon valley types who are connected in every conceivable way most likely aren't even aware of VB as an actual programming language.
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    Re: Live Chat - Let's Do It!

    I never try to do any meetings in the summer. I don't expect that the typical year for a biologist is the same as anyone else, but we have meeting season, report season, field season and vacation/hunting season. Field season is the summer, hunting season is the fall. No group activities tend to be scheduled indoors during those times. All meetings and reports are done over the winter and early spring simply because those are the only times when people are in the office.

    It may be that lots of people are in a slightly similar situation, though I would expect that it is largely vacations at this time of year. Kids just got out of school and the summer just got started, so vacations soar. That may depress participation. It certainly depressed my participation, since I was driving all day for a bike trip....except that I've also already been on a month-long hike, so perhaps I don't count as any kind of typical.
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    Re: Live Chat - Let's Do It!

    Quote Originally Posted by SJWhiteley View Post
    I'm wondering if lack of participation may answer the topic of discussion?
    Loved that comment!

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    Re: Live Chat - Let's Do It!

    I thought about it but I think Twitter is an extremely restrictive format for this kind of discussion. There are a lot of topics where limiting one to 140 characters is actually great. Believe it or not based on my posting style, I use the heck out of Twitter. But when I get in a programming discussion I try to quickly divert it to email. Group discussions are a nightmare, ask my role-playing group.

    This is especially true for VB, where even the one-liners tend to take up 20-30 more characters than the equivalent C#.

    I just tried to capture my thoughts on 'the future of VB', and it took 7 tweets. Which is a reasonably short mini-blog. I don't know how having several users participating might've looked though. I think a traditional chat room would've worked, it's not as hard as most people act to set up and join an IRC channel.

    But I do think the sense I get can be captured in one tweet, precisely 140 characters:

    VB's future looks like the present. Users do not value new methodology over time-tested techniques. So long as Winforms works, VB will live.
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    Re: Live Chat - Let's Do It!

    Yes, I can see where languages based on a syntax designed for primitive computers with small memories, limited mass storage, and paper tape as the primary storage medium would tend to be terse and telegraphic enough for tweedling.

    I saw that the topic was about VB.Net and not VB, so I have little interest myself. With VB.Net users frequently marginalized and pushed toward C# there may also be few but novices interested in the topic either. If anything causes VB.Net to wither away it might be that. Perhaps it has become redundant.

    As seasonal participation patterns go in general we aren't at a low right now though. Not a high either, but much higher than just 2 to 3 weeks ago.

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    Re: Live Chat - Let's Do It!

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Yes, I can see where languages based on a syntax designed for primitive computers with small memories, limited mass storage, and paper tape as the primary storage medium would tend to be terse and telegraphic enough for tweedling.
    See, this is also why I didn't want to participate. Say a word about VB in comparison to another language, and angry mobs come out of the woodwork to "But actually..." you with weird non-technical arguments. I show posts like this to people who ask me if they should learn VB and ask if this is what they want to look like. Usually they say, "Ah, yeah, let's talk about C# then."

    I'd �� at it but neither this forum software nor VB6 nor Windows has the technology to display emoji, which have been around since the 1990s and were formally adopted by Unicode as early as 1993. That's not quite old enough for VB, is it?

    There's no point to a discussion about VB, because the people who practice it don't want it to have a future. There is much more interest in finding a way to revive its past.
    Last edited by Sitten Spynne; Jun 16th, 2016 at 12:34 PM.
    This answer is wrong. You should be using TableAdapter and Dictionaries instead.

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    Re: Live Chat - Let's Do It!

    Side note:
    If there are public emojis you are using that don't work here, send me an email with the images or a picture of the images (yeah, I said picture of an image). That might just be a matter of adding them to our vBulletin installation.

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    Re: Live Chat - Let's Do It!

    One of the things that make tweetchats interesting is actually the limitation of 140 characters (and actually less than that, because you have to use a hashtag). This is because you can't do long diatribes about a topic, but have to focus your words to a specific thought. It provides a different type of discussion that can be very interesting. As I mentioned, eWeek and others have been doing these on topics and they do work. You aren't going to see topics like "how do you code xyz," but rather higher-level topics. My VB topic was pushing the edge, but I thought it might be edgy enough to draw people into the discussion.

    An alternative, would be to do a "live" chat that is an evolution of the "slow chats" here on the forum. In that case, we'd simply set up a special forum and say "we'll be there at X:XX o'clock. While this would work, the benefit of using a mainstream social media platform is that it also posts publicly, which might draw in other people. Even so, this might be something to try as an alternative or in addition to a Tweet chat. These could continue to live after the events as well.

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    Re: Live Chat - Let's Do It!

    Quote Originally Posted by brad jones View Post
    Side note:
    If there are public emojis you are using that don't work here, send me an email with the images or a picture of the images (yeah, I said picture of an image). That might just be a matter of adding them to our vBulletin installation.
    Quote Originally Posted by brad jones View Post
    Side note:
    If there are public emojis you are using that don't work here, send me an email with the images or a picture of the images (yeah, I said picture of an image). That might just be a matter of adding them to our vBulletin installation.
    It's Unicode text and it works inconsistently. For example, the last one was U+1F644 FACE WITH ROLLING EYES. Even when I force the forums to be displayed with a Unicode encoding like UTF-8, I tend to find these characters display this way. On rare occasions, a glyph shows through. I've had cases where a character displays for a few page loads, then stops displaying.

    My guess is some of the internal forums software uses Unicode for text, and some of it doesn't. If, by some chance, a message goes through the path without a conversion to ANSI, the emoji works. If it goes through something that converts to ANSI, you get garbage, because Windows-1252 is the "American tourist" of ANSI formats, assuming that everyone in the world speaks loud, slow English.

    It's a lot easier for me to type 🙄 than it is for me to go look up the list of available emoticons, and the list doesn't have the most important one you can have for a programming forum: 💩

    I've included a screenshot, for reference.

    (The "joke" kind of kills the idea of using them at all. While emoji's been supported on smartphones since day 1, and Mac OS has had a neat keyboard for them for at least 5 years, MS didn't start implementing display of emoji until Win8, and it only consistently displays in 'modern' applications like Edge. Getting it displaying in WinForms might work, I'm making the wager it's not out-of-the-box easy. It'd be neat if they worked at all, because there's a lot of really cool ones. 🍔)

    For some strange reason, the forums support Korean well enough for our foreign friends to make posts peddling shoes and other fine wares, but doesn't support the 'foreign' characters we might actually want to use. ��

    *edit*
    Also, huzzah: before this edit, I saw the 2nd screenshot. Breathing at this edit page broke it.
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    Last edited by Sitten Spynne; Jun 16th, 2016 at 02:53 PM.
    This answer is wrong. You should be using TableAdapter and Dictionaries instead.

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    Re: Live Chat - Let's Do It!

    Also, risky double-post:

    The real reason I didn't join the chat is I've been working from home because my wife was out of town and Twitter doesn't fit so well on one monitor. Any other day and I probably would've chimed in, because I'm generally on Twitter if I'm online. My Twitter handle's pretty easy to guess.

    Was there a hashtag? That cuts into your characters, but it's hard to follow a 'topic' if there's not a hashtag.
    This answer is wrong. You should be using TableAdapter and Dictionaries instead.

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    Re: Live Chat - Let's Do It!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sitten Spynne View Post
    There's no point to a discussion about VB, because the people who practice it don't want it to have a future. There is much more interest in finding a way to revive its past.
    Excuse me sir, but you are the one who started flinging monkey-poo. I merely replied with a fact.

    And egad, really? Emojis? Are we really 9 year old Japanese girls here? Just because you don't know how to install a font supporting them and then make use of it says nothing whatsoever about VB6.

    Why on Earth are you trolling a site devoted to VB programmers anyway?

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    Re: Live Chat - Let's Do It!

    Yer a sick and twisted man, Brad.

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    Re: Live Chat - Let's Do It!

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Yer a sick and twisted man, Brad.
    Shhhhhh! I have a public persona to maintain....


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    Re: Live Chat - Let's Do It!

    I was gonna go down a different route but upon some reflection:

    I have a stupid, hyperbolic and harsh way of speaking and it gets in the way sometimes. The emoji detour was part of that. I'm trying to clamp down on it, which is a big part of why I frowned at my initial responses to dilettante.

    I think the 9-year-old girl comment was an attempt to get under my skin, and it succeeded, and I almost threw a hissy fit. Instead, I'll expand on the 140 character version of "VB's future is its present."

    VB developers aren't much interested in new architecture ideas, new styles of programming, new methodologies, whatever. There's been an eternal fight going on as to whether that makes them sub-standard. Whatever. I think people who stick to that fight are pretty dumb. We need people who are happy to write CRUD apps. I don't think any fancypants 10x developers would be so happy if they had to do those jobs, and honestly we need CRUD apps on a wider scale than another damn Windows Package Manager.

    But that means, for the past decade or so, while the VB team has tried to move forward as C# has done, there's been a large number of people holding the brake lever as hard as possible. So much so MS has given up, and announced feature parity between VB and CS is no longer a goal. This has cost VB some developers: the ASP .NET MVC team isn't interested in VB support now. It will cost VB more things in the future. I don't think the VB community cares.

    So I don't think we'll see much change in VB itself. It seems the community has decided if the world votes against WinForms client apps, then VB will ride that train to the end of the rails. I don't see strong support towards any other direction at all. In fact, when someone tries to stir the pot, I find their wrist is often slapped. Considering how much the industry's changed in 5 years and where it might end up in the next 5 years, I don't think that paints a pretty picture for VB.

    But I also worry, because the job VB does is important. If MS abandons the desktop in an aggressive fashion, a lot of businesses will sink. What's most concerning is those businesses represent a dwindling amount of MS revenue. MS doesn't need them: they need MS.
    This answer is wrong. You should be using TableAdapter and Dictionaries instead.

  33. #33
    MS SQL Powerposter szlamany's Avatar
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    Re: Live Chat - Let's Do It!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sitten Spynne View Post
    VB developers aren't much interested in new architecture ideas, new styles of programming, new methodologies, whatever. There's been an eternal fight going on as to whether that makes them sub-standard. Whatever. I think people who stick to that fight are pretty dumb. We need people who are happy to write CRUD apps. I don't think any fancypants 10x developers would be so happy if they had to do those jobs, and honestly we need CRUD apps on a wider scale than another damn Windows Package Manager.
    There are just so many insulting barbs in this I just can't wrap my arms around it.

    You are stereotyping an entire group of developers - it's the most vile racism-like abuse I've ever seen.

    You need to not just reflect man - you need to take three deep breaths and then NOT TYPE anyway!

    Anytime someone made a post about MS SQL in that SQLite thread you threatened to take your ball and go home so no one could play!!!

    Have you ever been called a narcissist by anyone?

    And what is with the dislike of CRUD programmers? Was your father a CRUD programmer and take it out on you?

    CRUD programmers take a business problem and craft a solution. Some might find the plumbing of data flowing back and forth from a UI satisfying - especially when they get praise from the user base.

    I personally find CRUD programming to be so redundant that I spend my time working on ways to write a GUI once and use-it-always.

    And for fun I've got a patent application working through the USPTO for a fully-relational/dynamic-schema/graph-style database. And most of the POC on that project was done in VB (with lots of C++ for spots where speed was a requirement).

    Regardless, isn't the need to architect and then craft a solution the whole reason that all of us are coders? I find it art and I find it math and I find it poetry regardless of what I'm working on and regardless of what language I might be coding it in.

    Why in the world do you frequent a forum where the very nature of those others around you here disgusts you so much?

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  34. #34

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    Re: Live Chat - Let's Do It!

    Hi guys... Forum DAD here.

    Let's make sure we are all playing nice. Okay? I don't want to have to send anyone to their room....

    We are at the line of what is acceptable (or not acceptable). I left the 9 year old comment, because I thought Sitten would brush it off as a comment about emojis. I brushed off the generalization of VB developers because of the additional comments after. Let's all be careful and let's all make sure we are focused on topics and not people. If the above comments are going to stir issues, I'll remove them.

    There are some good discussion points here. The thread is really about the TweetChat rather than the topic of the first TweetChat. We can let this thread meander into that topic as long as it stays civil. Further emoji discussions should be pushed to a different thread.

    Thanks!

    Now let's lock arms and sing Kum By Ya...
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  35. #35
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    Re: Live Chat - Let's Do It!

    Well to stick to the topic...

    If this is a medium you want to explore so be it. It can't hurt to give it a shot, but as I understand it using an anonymous tweeting service with it probably wouldn't be viable. I don't feel like creating a dummy email account to tie a Twitter account to, and the last thing I want is overexposing my real email accounts to another service.

    So besides the fact that I'm not invested in VB.Net's future one way or another myself (and thus the topic is of limited interest to me), I wouldn't be tweeting at the chat anyway.

    But perhaps I'm being redundant, covering what I already said earlier.

    If the topic is broader (such VB in general, whether VB.Net or the next thing labeled "VB") I might have some input. Then I might even consider my twittering options. I think it is easy for people to discount the needs of casual users who want the PC to be more than a media consumption platform. Many of them are looking for tools to create simple Windows applications for small-audience use. Even an audience of one. Then you have the LOB programmers with a somewhat larger audience. But not every language needs to cater to mass-market software developers.

  36. #36
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    Re: Live Chat - Let's Do It!

    To clarify:

    I'm not suggesting VB6 is an answer either. It is best left to those with an existing investment in it.

  37. #37

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    Re: Live Chat - Let's Do It!

    Future chats are likely to cover a variety of broad topics at a higher level. They might touch on things like "the best methodology for developers, "build vs buy", "evolution: what's after OOP?", "things we'd like to see in (Vb, C#, C++, ASP, xxx)", "Advice from the Pros to the Newbies", "the impact of 'cloud' on devs", or all kinds of stuff.

    What would be a topic that would make it worth getting a Twitter handle?

    (edit: Those are topics I just pulled out of the air. I've not hammered out future topics yet, so that last question is a good one!)

  38. #38
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    Re: Live Chat - Let's Do It!

    Quote Originally Posted by szlamany View Post
    [snip]
    I think you see disgust in words where I didn't intend it. "Fear of change" and "stability is a requirement" have a very thin line between them, and it's very hard to describe the latter without traits of the former. Especially when, as with VB programmers, there's a long history of accusation and persecution. People tend to be a little sensitive then. The people here don't disgust me so much as they are different, and I'm still coming to grips with how. A long time ago I saw it as stubborn adherence to dogma, but now I'm starting to see it as something more.

    People who write the kind of project I'm thinking of need it to work for 20 years. The kind of people excited about C#'s progression towards a functional language tend to think in terms of 2 years, and are open to full rewrites if they manage to create a mess they can't clean up.

    20-year programmers need to learn a process that works and works forever. They can't be updating the codebase constantly. They've got more 20-year systems to write. The targets they're chasing move, but rarely move quickly.

    2-year programmers are so used to seat-of-their-pants they aren't averse to rewriting the application if a sea change happens. The targets they're chasing often disappear before they hit it.

    It's hard to be either kind of developer. The 20-year processes can't work under the chaotic requirements and scheduling the 2-year developers face. The 2-year developers don't know how to proceed carefully enough to meet the stability and validation the 20-year developers are used to. Both of them are finding new ways to get by, and should be asking each other questions often to see if there's some overlap in their skills.

    But we can't have that discussion if we can't call each other what we are without getting upset! Trust me, you don't disgust me. It's more likely than not the system that delivers my paycheck was written by you or someone like you. But I also know the system that delivers your servers was written by me and people like me (we route millions of trucks daily!). We need each other. When we work together, �� gets done. If I thought you were stupid, I wouldn't quote you and attempt to save some face.

    So I am very sorry I insulted you, and by proxy, VB developers. I didn't think long enough to come up with this "20-year-developer" metaphor, and strayed too close to the absolutely stupid "Mort" profile that needs to burn forever in a fire. If this metaphor is offensive to you, I promise it's out of my own ignorance and I want to know how I can speak about this divide without offending.

    PM me, I know Brad said this was off-topic but I really didn't like the thought that I'd touched such a nerve. You've been a big help in that one DB thread and I've learned a few things from you. I want to stay friendly so I can learn more.
    This answer is wrong. You should be using TableAdapter and Dictionaries instead.

  39. #39
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    Re: Live Chat - Let's Do It!

    Quote Originally Posted by brad jones View Post
    Future chats are likely to cover a variety of broad topics at a higher level. They might touch on things like "the best methodology for developers, "build vs buy", "evolution: what's after OOP?", "things we'd like to see in (Vb, C#, C++, ASP, xxx)", "Advice from the Pros to the Newbies", "the impact of 'cloud' on devs", or all kinds of stuff.

    What would be a topic that would make it worth getting a Twitter handle?

    (edit: Those are topics I just pulled out of the air. I've not hammered out future topics yet, so that last question is a good one!)
    I've already got a Twitter handle so it's more a matter of me remembering there's a live chat going on. What was the account that led this one? I can set up things so I get a decent notification the next time one starts.
    This answer is wrong. You should be using TableAdapter and Dictionaries instead.

  40. #40

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    Re: Live Chat - Let's Do It!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sitten Spynne View Post
    I've already got a Twitter handle so it's more a matter of me remembering there's a live chat going on. What was the account that led this one?
    I used my account (@BradleyLJones) to lead the chat. The chat was announced via the announcements on this forum and on the @Codeguru Twitter account.

    The Chat uses hashtag #CodeguruChat

    I'll post reminders as we get closer to the next one. It will likely be July 20th (third Wednesday).

    Brad!
    Last edited by brad jones; Jun 17th, 2016 at 10:37 AM. Reason: fixed typo

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