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Thread: Justice Scalia

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    Justice Scalia

    Supreme Court Justice Scalia dies at 79.

    Obama gets to appoint someone - he must be busy looking for a pro-health care justice!

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    Re: Justice Scalia

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    I didn't think he'd be the first of the old folks on the bench. I think you should have started a different thread for this one, though.
    I certainly never thought he's go next.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Wow, he could actually use the phrase, "I told them I wasn't feeling well" on his tombstone.

    Good thing people aren't politicizing this immediately...oh wait...

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    Re: Justice Scalia

    They are already saying that Obama won't get to appoint a replacement - it's going to be the next president!

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    Re: Justice Scalia

    He might have enough time to appoint, but it will stall in Congress until after the Inauguration ... then it'll be outright killed, and the new POTUS will then have to go through the process... it could be a year before we see the vacancy filled.

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    Re: Justice Scalia

    Oh yes Republicans, by all means filibuster nominees just to try to make it President Trump's pick (shoot me now)

    Obama's nominees have been disappointing, just like his presidency, and Hillary is probably going to be worse. So unless Bernie wins, our options are 'bad' and 'terrible'.

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    Re: Justice Scalia

    I did feel that Scalia seemed off his game for the last year. It seemed like he was kind of mailing it in on some of his dissents, though that was a pretty casual opinion.
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    Re: Justice Scalia

    I wouldn't worry too much. Bernie's a shoo-in and plenty of Senate seats will end up with Bernie-friendly butts in them next year as well.

    For that matter the entire House is up for re-election and I'd expect a Bernie-friendly majority there too. While that has no bearing on the Court appointment it does mean a bright future for America.

    So there is hope and the forces of darkness could well be pushed back into their spider holes as well. Then we only have to worry about a new source of domestic terror when the resentment sets in among the neo-confederates.

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    Re: Justice Scalia

    It was on the news last night that Obama is considering people that the Repubs would approve now which seems like a smart move.

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    Re: Justice Scalia

    It's really not good for either party to have a SCOTUS that can't act. GOP knows this, Democrats know this.

    For example, there are a lot of 5-4 decisions that are now invalid, because a SCOTUS ruling isn't complete without the written decision. A dead justice's vote doesn't count, so now they're 4-4. From what I gather, the only choice SCOTUS has in this case is to make a short ruling that does not count as precedent or wait until a new justice is appointed. All of the bills on the table are things people REALLY want a resolution to, and a no-precedent ruling would mean another case gets heard later. GOP doesn't want that. Democrats don't want that.

    Apparently Reagan appointed a justice in an election year back in '88 with an opposing Democratic congress. His first appointment was rejected, but his second was approved. It's not impossible, and it's not without precedent. Obviously Obama's not going to be able to appoint someone as conservative as the GOP would like, but I'd like to think he also realizes he's going to have to give a little there too, because a deadlocked SCOTUS hurts his chances at pushing policies as well. We won't get someone as conservative as Scalia again, that's for sure.

    It's kind of interesting, because given the things in SCOTUS limbo right now, I'm curious how long the GOP will hold out. They have demonstrated a willingness to harm the country with procedural delays if they don't get their way, but right now those 4-4 decisions might swing in a way that they believe harms their ends. Let the games begin, I'm just sort of glad I'm not getting live feeds of every word Trump says anymore. Now the news is all about freakin' Kanye West.
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    Re: Justice Scalia

    4/4 splits have happened at other times such as when a new justice might have been too closely involved in some case and must recuse themselves.

    4/4 splits mean that the lower court ruling stands. And as you mentioned - no precedent from a 4/4 split.

    Scalia was a Reagan appointee of a very conservative and "textual constitution supporter" - he followed the word of the constitution closely.

    I can see how the Republicans are concerned about one less conservative member - for a long, long time possibly.

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    Re: Justice Scalia

    Quote Originally Posted by Sitten Spynne View Post
    It's really not good for either party to have a SCOTUS that can't act. GOP knows this, Democrats know this.

    For example, there are a lot of 5-4 decisions that are now invalid, because a SCOTUS ruling isn't complete without the written decision. A dead justice's vote doesn't count, so now they're 4-4. From what I gather, the only choice SCOTUS has in this case is to make a short ruling that does not count as precedent or wait until a new justice is appointed. All of the bills on the table are things people REALLY want a resolution to, and a no-precedent ruling would mean another case gets heard later. GOP doesn't want that. Democrats don't want that.
    Which ones are that? I know there are some 5-4 decisions that will now be 5-3 ... there's one decision that could have been 4-4 but one of the Justices was recused due to prior involvement in the case at a lower level ... leaving it a potential 4-3 decision instead.

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    Re: Justice Scalia

    Funny thing about Scalia is that he was a brash New Yorker - just like Trump! He was born in Elmhurst, Queens - can't get much more New York Italian then that!

    Plus he was brilliant.

    From his dissent on Obamacare - http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2015/06/25/...-key-excerpts/

    Just ponder the significance of the Court’s decision to take matters into its own hands. The Court’s revision of the law authorizes the Internal Revenue Service to spend tens of billions of dollars every year in tax credits on federal Exchanges. It affects the price of insurance for millions of Americans. It diminishes the participation of the States in the implementation of the Act. It vastly expands the reach of the Act’s individual mandate, whose scope depends in part on the availability of credits….
    Perhaps the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act will attain the enduring status of the Social Security Act or the Taft-Hartley Act; perhaps not. But this Court’s two decisions on the Act will surely be remembered through the years. The somersaults of statutory interpretation they have performed (“penalty” means tax, “further [Medicaid] payments to the State” means only incremental Medicaid payments to the State, “established by the State” means not established by the State) will be cited by litigants endlessly, to the confusion of honest jurisprudence. And the cases will publish forever the discouraging truth that the Supreme Court of the United States favors some laws over others, and is prepared to do whatever it takes to uphold and assist its favorites. I dissent.
    Have we heard any "Obama took him out" conspiracy theories yet?

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    Re: Justice Scalia

    They'll be coming, no doubt.

    I gotta say, I'm just lovin' this. I just wish it didn't matter so much. The political chess around this appointment will be like no other in my lifetime. All the players have made their opening moves, but certainly not their final moves. The Rs are well motivated to say that they will block any nomination, and they have the power to do so. However, Obama will certainly nominate somebody, and depending on who that person is, the Rs may have a difficult time blocking the nomination. It'll be pretty fascinating.
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    Re: Justice Scalia

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    They'll be coming, no doubt.

    I gotta say, I'm just lovin' this. I just wish it didn't matter so much. The political chess around this appointment will be like no other in my lifetime. All the players have made their opening moves, but certainly not their final moves. The Rs are well motivated to say that they will block any nomination, and they have the power to do so. However, Obama will certainly nominate somebody, and depending on who that person is, the Rs may have a difficult time blocking the nomination. It'll be pretty fascinating.
    I'm not sure if there is going to be time to get someone in the seat. Even so, regardless of the nominee, it's not as if previous rulings will be invalidated or rehashed.

    Even if there is a case which requires Supreme court intervention, if it has already been determined by the court, then it's unlikely that they will decide, and would most likely fall back on the historical precedent. If they don't, then they invalidate the purpose of the supreme court, as they become an extension of the prevailing political strong-arm.
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    Re: Justice Scalia

    I wouldn't expect an appointment too far from center no matter who ends up doing the appointing. Then it comes down to where they think "center" is.

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    Re: Justice Scalia

    Quote Originally Posted by SJWhiteley View Post
    I'm not sure if there is going to be time to get someone in the seat. Even so, regardless of the nominee, it's not as if previous rulings will be invalidated or rehashed.
    There's plenty of time...if it were moving at a normal pace. However, filling the seat isn't necessarily even the objective. That's what makes it so fascinating. Had this happened a year or two back, the only consideration would be who the nominee would be and who could be passed. This opening at this time adds so MUCH complexity to the issue. I would expect Obama to nominate somebody who would normally be relatively noncontroversial, and do so quickly. At that point, the Republicans have to decide whether they would be helped or harmed by obvious foot-dragging. I couldn't say, myself, and I'm on the outside looking in. How will they see it?

    I have no doubt that they wish Obama would let this slide, and it's clearly his best strategy to not do so.
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    Re: Justice Scalia

    Stalling and waiting doesn't guarantee for the republican's that they actually will be the next Potus to select this Scotus - they must have that fear as well.

    It's one complicated hand to play!

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    Re: Justice Scalia

    Have you guys ever thought it might be better if your High Court Judges were not chosen by politicians?
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    Re: Justice Scalia

    Is it just me or does Scotus sound kinda... medical. As in "the Republicans have got Obama by the Scotus".

    It took me ages to work out what the hell you were on about.
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    Re: Justice Scalia

    Quote Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers View Post
    Have you guys ever thought it might be better if your High Court Judges were not chosen by politicians?
    It's written right into the Constitution... POTUS is the one that is authorized to put up the nominee, and Congress is required to consider it. It's part of the checks & balances of the system.

    besides... if not them, then who? the people? Pfffft! I've seen how that goes, where people select the judges ...

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    Re: Justice Scalia

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    ...

    besides... if not them, then who? the people? Pfffft! I've seen how that goes, where people select the judges ...
    People just don't know what's good for them...Is Judge Judy on the Supreme Court? I think she's the third one on the right.
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    Re: Justice Scalia

    Well, I've heard that this season is the last season for American Idol ... maybe it's time for American Judge ... or America's Next Top Judge ...

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    Re: Justice Scalia

    America's Next Top Judge
    See i knew you guys could come up with a truly American way of selection.

    In the UK we have a select committee made up of various judges and a lay person, but where is the prime time TV drama in that !!

    Maybe we could also have some spin off shows like - "Ex Judge on the Beach" or "Judge Wars"
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    Re: Justice Scalia

    "You are the weakest judge. Goodbye!"

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    Re: Justice Scalia

    What's funny about this, to me, is appointed positions are generally seen as the easiest to abuse via corruption. But SCOTUS appointment's probably the only facet of the current election process that isn't corrupt/owned by campaign donations.

    It'd be really hard for a POTUS to set up a SCOTUS that completely appeals to him. It'd pretty much take a murder, as I imagine we have rules that prohibit more than 2 justices on the same airplane, or flying at the same time, etc.

    Now, if Obama were somehow appointing 4 different justices, I'd definitely entertain a Congressional, "This makes us a little nervous." One's somewhat harmless, because everyone knows he's got to get Congressional approval of whoever he picks, so "moderate with a slight left lean" is a much more likely slam dunk than "moderate with obvious left leanings". And I'm pretty sure there's some "moderate with slight right lean" candidates we could agree on, too.
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    Re: Justice Scalia

    And then there is the mystery nominee. Some of you would remember David Souter, who was nominated by G. H. W. Bush. It was assumed that he was a conservative, but once on the court he ended up tending towards the liberal side of things. This is not all that unusual, as I understand it. Those judges tend to decide things in ways that can hide, change, or distort political views. The best that can be done by a President or Congress to try to understand the legal thinking of any potential candidate is by reviewing their past decisions. However, their past decisions may not necessarily reflect their personal beliefs, so that's just covering material. It just goes to show that you can't always book a judge by their cover.
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    Re: Justice Scalia

    Scalia was known for saying "words matter" - he treated the document he was in charge of interpreting as a series of very clear words.

    Constitutional textualism...

    Odd how that ends up being called conservative!

    I wonder if a liberal SCJ is just one that is willing to wrangle those words towards a goal? And once you have a goal the game surely changes.

    Or would a liberal person see the exact opposite?

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    Re: Justice Scalia

    Yeah, probably. I felt that words mattered to Scalia largely when they served his ends. I've never known a literalist, whether judicial, biblical, or other, who adhered closely to that rule, or took a literal interpretation of ALL parts of the document in question. It always seemed like a justification when the literal interpretation happened to fit with the underlying belief of the individual. I just think that a literal interpretation is a conservative position, by the definition of the word conservative rather than the political definition of the term.
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    Re: Justice Scalia

    Literalism is why it's taken 4 amendments to define who has voting rights, and there's still several classes of people that aren't protected. For example, I can't find anything that says voting rights cannot be denied for a person's sexual orientation. Or choice of programming language. We're only protected from discrimination by age, sex, and race, if I read it right, because nothing's properly linked voting rights to the 'liberty' the 14th defines for all natural-born and naturalized citizens.

    But I'm curious if a SCOTUS would take a literalist stance there. That 4 amendments have expanded voting rights seems to imply the nation, hypothetically, intends for all citizens to vote.
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    Re: Justice Scalia

    It depends on the case in front of them... it's not like they take cases willy-nilly... there usually have to be some sort of Constitutional angle or some kind of dispute involving international or inter-state law. So, if someone were to pass a law banning all those that use Visual Basic from voting, or being allowed to own anything... that's something that (as much of a long shot it is) would end up on their docket.

    -tg
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    Re: Justice Scalia

    If corporations are people then why aren't there any in prison?

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    Re: Justice Scalia

    Because corporations make bigger campaign donations than individuals, and think of all the jobs, oh woe is them.

    Besides, like in the Blue Bell listeria situation, good executives never directly ask people to break the law. Instead, they set goals that require breaking the law to achieve. Some people protest, they get fired for not meeting goals. Eventually someone gets it, and starts quietly breaking the law to achieve their goals. They get promoted.

    Then, when the consequences happen, there's no chain of evidence implying that management had any idea that this rogue individual took it upon himself to violate the law. He takes the fall, they file for bankruptcy and take what remains of the assets to the next place.

    So it's never the corporation's fault. It's always some individual removed from the executives by several layers of indirection. Sort of like organized crime.

    It really disturbs me when I hear "this country should be run like a business". It's common practice to scuttle a business so you can build something else from its ashes.
    Last edited by Sitten Spynne; Feb 17th, 2016 at 04:39 PM.
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    Re: Justice Scalia

    Blue Bell is still facing investigation and criminal charges. It's a family run business hiding behind a corporate shield over bad ice cream - that certainly isn't your poster child for abusive corporations - right?

    "Run like a business" can refer to many other things that Washington does poorly.

    How about the ever growing debt?

    How about trade deals and other deals that obviously don't smell right?

    How about programs that are just plain old poorly run?

    When Ross Perot - another businessman - ran it was all about the economy.

    "It's the economy, stupid" - now that's just a joke. Granted Carville coined it back in the Clinton-I days...

    But actually it is all about the economy. It's all about trade. It's all about manufacturing and off shore and all that boring stuff. It's about making decisions on gas and oil pipelines and supporting unions and more boring stuff. It's about changing the tax code. We needed tort reform for doctors 20 years ago - way before we built this monster of a national health exchange.

    It has to start someplace.

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  34. #34
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Justice Scalia

    Quote Originally Posted by Sitten Spynne View Post
    good executives never directly ask people to break the law. Instead, they set goals that require breaking the law to achieve.
    That would be "clever" executives, not "good" ones.
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  35. #35
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    Re: Justice Scalia

    Quote Originally Posted by szlamany View Post
    It has to start someplace.
    It always has started. In this case, it's really an on-going struggle that can never end. All of those reforms/suggestions are quite valid, but they can never be accomplished. They must always be seen as a work in progress.

    I work with a few fish hatcheries, some federal, some state. The federal hatcheries have at least twice the staff of the state hatcheries and do the same job with the same quantities of fish produced. Once you get looking at the operation, you realize that the reason the feds have so many more people is that they have LOADS of regulations to comply with that the state avoids. Many of those regulations seem totally insane, at first, but it's clear how they arose: Somebody felt that somebody was "getting away with something", or might abuse the system to line their pockets, or might be abusive in some way. They complained to their Congressman, who got some language passed saying "thou shalt" or "thou shalt not". The motivation was reasonable at that point. However, this was then given to an agency that had to figure out how to comply with the law. They came up with some kind of rule, the lawyers agreed that it met the requirements of the law, and that was passed down to the facilities to implement.

    So, the feds have twice as many people because centuries worth of rules have been added to keep issues real and imagined, from allowing somebody to do something that others felt was wrong. The result is a hidebound institution where every petty rule originated with somebody venting their spleen over some grievance real or imagined.

    Sometimes, that crust has to be knocked off. The problem is that as soon as you open the door to systemic change, there are lots of people who want to get a larger slice of the pie. The Reagan tax simplification was a good thing. Since that time, the tax laws have grown right back up in complexity as everybody with a good lobbyist carves out their own rule. If we simplified again, there would be people carving exceptions into the new law before it was even passed, but it would still be good. It would just have to be repeated periodically.
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  36. #36

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    Re: Justice Scalia

    CT as a state economy competes in the top 10 countries in the world.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compar...al)_per_capita

    That link is old - the current standings have NY and MA ahead of CT right now.

    We are sitting on a $500 million dollar deficit for this year ending June 30th - due to revenues not even being remotely close to expectations.

    The mitigation plans being considered right now are going to slash government in so many ways - social programs, DMV - it's going to be life changing for CT state workers.

    The federal government has to reign it in now as well.

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    Lively Member homer13j's Avatar
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    Re: Justice Scalia

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    If corporations are people then why aren't there any in prison?
    Jeff Skilling, former CEO of Enron - Serving 24 years for fraud, insider trading, and other crimes related to the collapse of Enron
    Bernie Ebbers, former CEO of WorldCom - Serving 25 years for accounting fraud that cost investors over $100 billion
    Dennis Kozlowski, former CEO of Tyco - Serving 8 to 25 years for stealing $134 million from Tyco
    John Rigas, former CEO of Adelphia Communications - Serving 25 years for bank, wire, and securities fraud related to the demise of Adelphia
    Sanjay Kumar, former CEO of Computer Associates - Serving 12 years for obstruction of justice and securities fraud
    Walter Forbes, former CEO of Cendant - Serving 12 years for fraud
    Richard Scrushy, former CEO of HealthSouth - Serving 7 years for bribery and mail fraud
    Joseph Nacchio, former CEO of Qwest Communications - Serving 6 years for insider trading
    Sam Waksal, former CEO of ImClone - Served 7 years for securities fraud (released last year)
    Martin Grass, former CEO of Rite Aid - Served 6 years for fraud and obstruction (just released this year)
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  38. #38

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    Re: Justice Scalia

    I heard on the news just now that this Fed request for Apple to "hack" the phone of that San Bernardino shooter could be a supreme court issue - wonder how fast they could move that along?

    Doesn't meaningful intelligence on that phone get stale real quick??
    Last edited by szlamany; Feb 17th, 2016 at 06:08 PM.

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  39. #39
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Justice Scalia

    From what I have heard about that case (very little, and mostly in passing, I admit) it sounds like I agree with Apple. The hack required sounds like it would be a patch to the OS that would open a back door in the OS and not just for the target phone. That would be a very interesting case to reach the court.
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  40. #40
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    Re: Justice Scalia

    Quote Originally Posted by homer13j View Post
    Jeff Skilling, former CEO of Enron ...
    No, you miss the point.

    If a corporation is a person then the entire corporation should be jailed upon conviction. The trick is defining what "the corporation" is. A good start might be all officers and all major shareholders.

    Incarcerated people cannot run a business while in prison, so therefore the corporation's operations would be shuttered.

    Sorry, but you can't have things both ways. They either are or they aren't people.

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