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Thread: Results of the annual StackOverflow developer survey

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    Results of the annual StackOverflow developer survey

    StackOverflow's annual survey always provides an interesting look at current coding trends:

    http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015

    See if you can find the sole mention of VB. (Hint: it's in the Technology section, but you'll have to do some clicking to find it...)
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    Re: Results of the annual StackOverflow developer survey

    It does surprise me that VB is one of the most dreaded development technologies... however, it bothers me more than salesforce is #1! My work just switched to salesforce and I've just started delving into apex :/

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    Re: Results of the annual StackOverflow developer survey

    Uh oh, sorry to hear. If it's any consolation, I've worked with a number of the other entries on the "most-dreaded" list (WordPress, LAMP, Perl), and they really weren't that bad.

    I imagine a lot of the "dread" comes from devs who inherited poorly written code. That's my wild guess at why VB is ranked so highly - there is some really hideous VB code out there, which has nothing to do with the language, and everything to do with the developer.
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    Re: Results of the annual StackOverflow developer survey

    I bet the "dread" from VB comes more from maintaining VB6 code (I know I would if I had to) ... or it could come from having to learn VB.NET coming off of VB6 ... the question just asks a basic question, but there doesn't appear to be any defining of "why" are these so well loved or despised. It's all statistics. It's all in how you interpret the numbers.

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    Re: Results of the annual StackOverflow developer survey

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    I bet the "dread" from VB comes more from maintaining VB6 code (I know I would if I had to) ... or it could come from having to learn VB.NET coming off of VB6 ... the question just asks a basic question, but there doesn't appear to be any defining of "why" are these so well loved or despised. It's all statistics. It's all in how you interpret the numbers.
    <pedantics>

    To be fair, surveys != statistical analyses. These are just raw response percentages from developers. So it's not like the numbers are "right" or "wrong", they just... "are."

    </pedantics>

    Mostly I think surveys like this are helpful for career decisions. Knowing that a lot of shops dread VB might be helpful when prepping a CV, e.g. maybe it's wise to hide VB experience amid other qualifications, instead of making it the focus, etc.
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    Re: Results of the annual StackOverflow developer survey

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanner_H View Post
    <pedantics>

    To be fair, surveys != statistical analyses. These are just raw response percentages from developers. So it's not like the numbers are "right" or "wrong", they just... "are."

    </pedantics>
    Fair enough. 62% of all statistics are made up on the spot anyways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanner_H View Post
    Mostly I think surveys like this are helpful for career decisions. Knowing that a lot of shops dread VB might be helpful when prepping a CV, e.g. maybe it's wise to hide VB experience amid other qualifications, instead of making it the focus, etc.
    As you pointed out Survey != Statistics ... case in point, this is not a true cross section of the IT world. It's representation of the respondents on SO. That would be like taking a survey here and saying it represents the entire VB mind set. It doesn't. I'm not sure it could even come close. Results are always going to be skewed. If you're making career choices on the results of a somewhat fairly unscientific survey from SO... might want to get that screw tightened up a bit. So a lot of shops dread VB... so you "hide" it on your CV... but maybe that job you jsut sent it to is looking for someone that doesn't dread VB. Maybe they are part of that group that doesn't dread it. But you've tucked away your VB experience that they are looking for. Maybe they dread it because they are long-time C/C++ developers, maybe their wheelhouse is COBOL. Personally, I play it up, I'm proud to be a long-time VB Developer. That's what interviews are for... figuring out their environment. That's why I'm leery about things like this. There's no break down for the why do people dread it.

    After I've written that, I can see though, that it may be _A_ barometer of trends... but it should be taken with a grain or two of salt, and not as a sole source.

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    Re: Results of the annual StackOverflow developer survey

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    As you pointed out Survey != Statistics ... case in point, this is not a true cross section of the IT world. It's representation of the respondents on SO. That would be like taking a survey here and saying it represents the entire VB mind set. It doesn't. I'm not sure it could even come close. Results are always going to be skewed. If you're making career choices on the results of a somewhat fairly unscientific survey from SO... might want to get that screw tightened up a bit. So a lot of shops dread VB... so you "hide" it on your CV... but maybe that job you jsut sent it to is looking for someone that doesn't dread VB. Maybe they are part of that group that doesn't dread it. But you've tucked away your VB experience that they are looking for. Maybe they dread it because they are long-time C/C++ developers, maybe their wheelhouse is COBOL. Personally, I play it up, I'm proud to be a long-time VB Developer. That's what interviews are for... figuring out their environment. That's why I'm leery about things like this. There's no break down for the why do people dread it.
    This kind of defensiveness from VB devs could be another reason VB has a bad reputation.

    You don't have to defend VB to me! I like VB as much as anyone. But if 19,000 out of 26,000 developers report "dread" of VB, I think we have to accept that there are certain preconceived notions about the language.

    I can think this kind of perception is dumb. (And I do; if I didn't, I wouldn't still be using VB.) But even if I think the perception is dumb, it doesn't mean I can ignore it. We get a lot of people on the forums who are looking for work or trying to improve their career options, so I figured this was a helpful resource. If you know of another survey with similar coverage, please share it! The more information, the better.

    Obviously, any developer worth his/her salt should custom-tailor his CV for a given job. If you're applying for a VB-specific job, that's great, but if you're not, it might be helpful to know the odds on how the average developer perceives VB. We can argue about whether or not StackOverflow is a meaningful cross-section of developers, but I would say that my personal experience agrees with their numbers (3 out of 4 devs viewing VB negatively).

    It would be great if we could reduce that number. I know I'm trying to. I'm sure many other forums users are, too.
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    Fanatic Member Toph's Avatar
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    Re: Results of the annual StackOverflow developer survey

    Hmmm these are pretty interesting. The gender gap for programmers is so unbalance. We need more women in this field.
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    Re: Results of the annual StackOverflow developer survey

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanner_H View Post
    This kind of defensiveness from VB devs could be another reason VB has a bad reputation.

    You don't have to defend VB to me! I like VB as much as anyone. But if 19,000 out of 26,000 developers report "dread" of VB, I think we have to accept that there are certain preconceived notions about the language.
    Maybe... but it still has to be taken with a large amount of salt, how many of those 26,000 developers actually make their living on VB? That's the problem I have with these kinds of surveys... if you have 26k devlopers, 19k of which "dread" VB... yet none of them are VB-Developers, but rather C/++, Perl, Ruby or Java developers that would simply rather chew their arm off than work with VB... it puts a sort of skew on it. That's all Im saying. Now if all 19k of them ARE VB developers.... then YEAH, I'd agree, there is a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanner_H View Post
    I can think this kind of perception is dumb. (And I do; if I didn't, I wouldn't still be using VB.) But even if I think the perception is dumb, it doesn't mean I can ignore it. We get a lot of people on the forums who are looking for work or trying to improve their career options, so I figured this was a helpful resource. If you know of another survey with similar coverage, please share it! The more information, the better.
    ComputerWorld puts one out annually... it covers all of IT, not just developers. I won't say it's more or less scientific than the SO one since I don't know how SO defined their demographic universe, but I think it tends to jive with what I see in the broader IT world.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tanner_H View Post
    Obviously, any developer worth his/her salt should custom-tailor his CV for a given job. If you're applying for a VB-specific job, that's great, but if you're not, it might be helpful to know the odds on how the average developer perceives VB.
    This is were I get amused... mostly because I also recognize that I have been very lucky in this regard. I've been using VB as my primary language since '95 with VB3... all of the jobs I've applied for and gotten have all been VB-primary jobs... so I've never had to "cross" train into a new language other than for my own edification.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tanner_H View Post
    We can argue about whether or not StackOverflow is a meaningful cross-section of developers, but I would say that my personal experience agrees with their numbers (3 out of 4 devs viewing VB negatively).

    It would be great if we could reduce that number. I know I'm trying to. I'm sure many other forums users are, too.
    [/quote]
    We employ somewhere between 50-100 developers... we're all using VB. All of our templates are in VB, the entire platform frameworks is all done in VB. Does that dilute your numbers any?


    And I think the "bad reputation" of VB is largely historical... there are a lot of people that never considered BASIC a real language, let alone VB. Then there's dill and the not.net camp... who knows where they would fall in the survey.

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    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Results of the annual StackOverflow developer survey

    BASIC's reputation aside, I think this "dread" about VB is justified. I've made it no secret that I absolutely love VB.Net, however, if I could start it all over, I'd be a C/C++ developer. I'm way too spoiled by convenience of rapid application development of the VB world to make any move to C now. But over the years I've often come up against the limits of VB that required me to find or invent some crude hacks, some of which didn't even work the way I truly wanted them to. VB.Net was a great improvement but any abstracted development tool is going to have a hard limit that you can never get away from. C/C++ is pretty bare bones and is enormously flexible and best of all, you are not required to install runtimes and dependencies like you are with VB6 and VB.Net to run your applications.

    I think I've mentioned before that I was part of a modding community when I was much younger. We modded for a Doom port called ZDoom. There were a handful of programmers there and it was we who made various tools for the community. I was one of only two developers who used VB6. It was there I came to terms with the fact that VB for all its goodness pales in comparison to C/C++. The dependencies was a huge problem for them. The other guys' could release their tools as a single EXE that you could just run after downloading. They complained a bit about having to install VB6's runtime as they were not used to having to run installers. The only reason people still used it is because it was quite a unique tool with features no other tool had. The other guys' tools had a lot of overlap in the features they would offer. Another thing that bugged me was how impressive the GUIs of other tools were and I was stuck using VB6's archaic and limited WYSIWYG editor. I tried a few clever hacks and tricks to make my GUI seem more modern but the results were less than spectacular. Some of it was downright ugly. I also had to mitigate a lot of issues by writing some routines in C++ and call them from VB6, mostly string and image processing.

    Part of the reason I love VB.Net so much is because I recognized that a lot of the problems I had with VB6 were solved. Still VB.Net WinForms is a bit twitchy and while you can make much better GUIs, C++ can still author even better GUIs and there's still the problem of installing dependencies, but it isn't as bad as it was with VB6. Windows 7 and later comes with some flavor of the .Net Framework so my dream of being able to provide a single EXE that people could just run has finally come true, at least for some folks. People running XP are gonna have to install the Framework.

    So yea, even though I love VB, I'm still big enough to admit that there are better tools out there for developing applications. I still won't leave VB but I can understand why people would want to avoid it.
    Last edited by Niya; Apr 8th, 2015 at 01:43 PM.
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    Fanatic Member Toph's Avatar
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    Re: Results of the annual StackOverflow developer survey

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    *Snip*
    While I agree with your post. I would like to add my reasons as to why people dread VB.NET. Looking at their statistics C# is not part of their dreaded list, in fact is part of their list of technologies that they like. We all know that the main difference between VB.NET and C# is the syntax. And I think that's why people dread or don't like VB.NET, it's because of the syntax. The syntax is "too English like" and developers don't like that because there is stigma attached to programmers who code in VB.NET. People tend to think that they don't know anything or cannot produce any good code.

    I think part of the reason for their thinking of because of the syntax of VB.NET and because lots of kids attempt to make these crap malicious programs using VB.NET when they barely know the language. So not only are they create horribly malware, but it's poorly coded too so ya.

    When I used to offer programming services on another forum, I used to advertise VB.NET and C# even though I didn't know C# just because I would get more customers. I could just easily convert the VB.NET to C#... But that was then, now I know C# well. But I still prefer C# over VB.NET, and that's mainly because of the syntax C# offers. It's nice in my opinion.

    For example ternary operators in C# look soooo much better in C# than VB.NET.

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    Frenzied Member Gruff's Avatar
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    Re: Results of the annual StackOverflow developer survey

    Not really. Not a whole lot of difference IMHO.
    I have no preference for languages.
    Last edited by Gruff; Apr 8th, 2015 at 02:38 PM.
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    Re: Results of the annual StackOverflow developer survey

    I've always thought that the disdain for VB as a language was because groups are often defined by their opposition. I would guess that a lot of developers, being geeks, like being a member of an exclusive community. VB makes it less exclusive, and therefore is seen as a threat. I base this view on the fact that the bulk of the views I have seen expressed disparage VB without having any reason other than the fact that it is VB and therefore should be disparaged...because that's what the cool kids are doing.
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    Re: Results of the annual StackOverflow developer survey

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    We employ somewhere between 50-100 developers... we're all using VB. All of our templates are in VB, the entire platform frameworks is all done in VB. Does that dilute your numbers any?
    It does! I've never worked in a VB-specific shop, and honestly, I didn't know there were shops like that left. My background is medical engineering, and depending on the project, we have to mix and match all kinds of bizarre tools, IDEs, and language. So aside from online interactions, I don't get to spend too much time with VB developers.

    Given the craziness of the average vbForums user, maybe that's a good thing...? I'd be curious to know if there are still a lot of opportunities for VB-only devs. I've only ever used VB as a hobby and RAD tool, so maybe my experience isn't the norm.

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    And I think the "bad reputation" of VB is largely historical... there are a lot of people that never considered BASIC a real language, let alone VB.
    Yeah, no disagreement here. I've never understood disliking BASIC solely based on its syntax.

    But then again, there are other high-level languages with friendly syntax - like Python - that are generally well-loved. So maybe there's more to the VB-specific hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    Then there's dill and the not.net camp... who knows where they would fall in the survey.
    I think we can safely call that movement "not statistically significant." (starts looking for an escape route before dilletante shows up to refute this)
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    Re: Results of the annual StackOverflow developer survey

    Quote Originally Posted by Toph View Post
    I think part of the reason for their thinking of because of the syntax of VB.NET and because lots of kids attempt to make these crap malicious programs using VB.NET when they barely know the language. So not only are they create horribly malware, but it's poorly coded too so ya.
    I agree. I know of two AV scanners (Avira and Dr Web) that will flag totally blank VB6 projects - e.g. click "New Project" > "Compile EXE". I assume this is simply because so many people have tried to use VB6 for malware purposes over the years.

    For example ternary operators in C# look soooo much better in C# than VB.NET.
    I also hate VB's ternary operator. Glad to know I'm not alone.

    Like you say, weird that C# is generally well-liked (and IMO it's a fine language) while VB still carries so many negative stigmas. Aside from a handful of new features added in the past few years, the languages are largely interchangeable. I have to assume most the VB.Net hate is just carried over from feelings about classic VB.
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    Re: Results of the annual StackOverflow developer survey

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanner_H View Post
    I have to assume most the VB.Net hate is just carried over from feelings about classic VB.
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    Re: Results of the annual StackOverflow developer survey

    There may be some anti-MS in there, as well. Of all the languages out there, only VB is truly MS. Technically, C# is only MS, but C# is closely related to C++, which was never MS.
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    Re: Results of the annual StackOverflow developer survey

    So in the SO most Dreaded list is says Visual Basic, which i read as Classic VB NOT VB.Net, as i have always called VB.Net VB.Net never Visual Basic.

    And if so then i do understand it being on the most dreaded list Not because of the language at all actually, but simply because there are so many badly written old VB6 apps out there and if you happen to be one of those poor people who have to support them its no fun. I know you can get badly written apps in any language but in my experience there are a lot of VB6 ones out there especially in small dev houses.

    I could post some code form one of the legacy VB6 apps at my current place of work that would make you weep!!

    I think because it had a WYSIWYG form designer (which most other languages did not have at the time) and a more English like syntax it encouraged a lot of enthusiasts or semi technical people to write code which they did not very well.

    VB.Net i understand less being on the most dreaded list, its essentially the same thing as C# and it has the same IDE.
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    Re: Results of the annual StackOverflow developer survey

    SO can be a good site but its got its own sort of "hive-mind" going on and people just parrot over and over what they hear such as Microsoft being evil. I would love to see what the demographics were and if people voting actually have had experience with VB.NET before voting on it. I have noticed that people tend to glorify what they use and condemn whatever technology they have not been exposed to or see no use for because they are happily stuck in their ways. To illustrate this point, I was reading a post about how .NET core is being released for Linux, and the Linux guys were posting "Why would I want M$ crapware on my box", even blasting C# as a "crappy" language.

    I am in the process now of writing my first major C# project for no other reason than to be able to list it on my resume for the exact reasons. I am serious about being able to solve problems and create solutions by any means for a business and I don't want prospective employers to think I am some Mickey Mouse application developer. I feel that my VB.NET skills listed on a resume wont be taken seriously.

  20. #20
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Results of the annual StackOverflow developer survey

    Quote Originally Posted by jayinthe813 View Post
    To illustrate this point, I was reading a post about how .NET core is being released for Linux, and the Linux guys were posting "Why would I want M$ crapware on my box", even blasting C# as a "crappy" language.
    Linux people are among the most fanatical tech people one can find. They believe Linux is the best thing ever. Of course they hate Windows. If I wanted to set up a wireless receiver in Windows, all I have to do is plug it in. In the Linux world as far as I understand, you'd have to write a command line script a paragraph long. Linux users can then brag about how clever they are. They're not special in the Windows world where everything is plug and play. I've read about the Linux community having a "wires and pliers" attitude. They like to do everything the hard way.
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    Re: Results of the annual StackOverflow developer survey

    Quote Originally Posted by jayinthe813 View Post
    SO can be a good site but its got its own sort of "hive-mind" going on and people just parrot over and over what they hear such as Microsoft being evil. I would love to see what the demographics were and if people voting actually have had experience with VB.NET before voting on it. I have noticed that people tend to glorify what they use and condemn whatever technology they have not been exposed to or see no use for because they are happily stuck in their ways. To illustrate this point, I was reading a post about how .NET core is being released for Linux, and the Linux guys were posting "Why would I want M$ crapware on my box", even blasting C# as a "crappy" language.

    I am in the process now of writing my first major C# project for no other reason than to be able to list it on my resume for the exact reasons. I am serious about being able to solve problems and create solutions by any means for a business and I don't want prospective employers to think I am some Mickey Mouse application developer. I feel that my VB.NET skills listed on a resume wont be taken seriously.
    I work a ton with the Linux community, and the anti-Microsoft sentiment has largely disappeared over the past decade. There's a small 1% contingent of Linux users who will always be really obnoxious about MS stuff (like 1% of pretty much any community), but most can't avoid Microsoft entirely, especially if they're developers.

    What's interesting about that survey is how highly C# and F# are perceived. If anti-Microsoft biases were so strong, I wouldn't expect that.
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    Re: Results of the annual StackOverflow developer survey

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    Linux people are among the most fanatical tech people one can find. They believe Linux is the best thing ever. Of course they hate Windows. If I wanted to set up a wireless receiver in Windows, all I have to do is plug it in. In the Linux world as far as I understand, you'd have to write a command line script a paragraph long. Linux users can then brag about how clever they are. They're not special in the Windows world where everything is plug and play. I've read about the Linux community having a "wires and pliers" attitude. They like to do everything the hard way.
    This is demonstrably false.

    If you've never tried a Linux distro, I strongly recommend trying the latest Ubuntu or Linux Mint build on an old PC or VM. You'll be blown away by how convenient it can be. (Installing a modern Linux distro is actually much, much easier than installing Windows, as all drivers and software is handled centrally, rather than you having to supply it yourself.)

    Linux has been plug-and-play for years now.
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  23. #23
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Results of the annual StackOverflow developer survey

    Well that's good to hear. Last time I ever played with Linux was something like 10+ years ago so I my view are quite outdated.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. -jmcilhinney

  24. #24

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    Re: Results of the annual StackOverflow developer survey

    Ah, that makes more sense. The past decade has been pretty great for Linux thanks to investment from a lot of major companies (like Canonical), so it's night and day different from the Linux of the early 2000's.

    It really is worth checking out a distro like Linux Mint. Trying it is as easy as:

    1) Download Virtual Box
    2) Download the latest Linux Mint ISO
    3) Plug the ISO from (2) into Virtual Box (1)

    Fun way to kill an afternoon if you have nothing better to do. I've moved a lot of my old XP PCs to Linux as it's nice to have the latest software and OS features, without worrying about security issues.
    Check out PhotoDemon, a pro-grade photo editor written completely in VB6. (Full source available at GitHub.)

  25. #25
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    Re: Results of the annual StackOverflow developer survey

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanner_H View Post
    This is demonstrably false.

    If you've never tried a Linux distro, I strongly recommend trying the latest Ubuntu or Linux Mint build on an old PC or VM. You'll be blown away by how convenient it can be. (Installing a modern Linux distro is actually much, much easier than installing Windows, as all drivers and software is handled centrally, rather than you having to supply it yourself.)

    Linux has been plug-and-play for years now.
    I have used Ubuntu in the past. While yes your mouse/kb and monitor will work, the same is not true for all peripherals, obviously. For example, I own some sound processing equipment. Drivers are non-existent or are a hack job that does not provide full compatibility. I don't know that this is a linux problem as much as a manufacturer problem, but regardless it falls back on Linux because I cant use it to do the things I need to do.

    Don't get me wrong, I love to play with the distros and I think the concept is great. It is a decent operating system if you don't need any kind of specialization, but that is definitely where it falls short.

  26. #26

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    Re: Results of the annual StackOverflow developer survey

    Quote Originally Posted by jayinthe813 View Post
    I have used Ubuntu in the past. While yes your mouse/kb and monitor will work, the same is not true for all peripherals, obviously. For example, I own some sound processing equipment. Drivers are non-existent or are a hack job that does not provide full compatibility. I don't know that this is a linux problem as much as a manufacturer problem, but regardless it falls back on Linux because I cant use it to do the things I need to do.

    Don't get me wrong, I love to play with the distros and I think the concept is great. It is a decent operating system if you don't need any kind of specialization, but that is definitely where it falls short.
    Definitely true, but to be fair, I could say the same thing for OSX or the first few months of any new Windows release. Until companies release updated drivers for specialized hardware, there's not much you can do but hack stuff together and hope for the best.

    Same goes for software; for general purpose stuff (browsers, office, etc) there are nice alternatives on Linux. But if you're doing something really specialized (video editing, the latest video games, etc), Windows is still the place to be. Some software is just really hard to produce without a financially motivated company backing it.
    Check out PhotoDemon, a pro-grade photo editor written completely in VB6. (Full source available at GitHub.)

  27. #27
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    Re: Results of the annual StackOverflow developer survey

    What the heck is a "wireless receiver?" Something like one of those wireless mouse dongles?

  28. #28
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    Re: Results of the annual StackOverflow developer survey

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    What the heck is a "wireless receiver?" Something like one of those wireless mouse dongles?
    lol....I mean a wireless network adapter. But I'm specifically referring to the external ones that you can jack into one of your USB ports, not the traditional kinds that you insert into your motherboard or the on-board ones like you find in laptops, tablets and such. I call the them wireless receivers because that's what it looks like to me, a little antenna that picks up wireless networks in the vicinity. Antenna's are made to receive signals hence that term "receiver".
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. -jmcilhinney

  29. #29
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    Re: Results of the annual StackOverflow developer survey

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanner_H View Post
    It really is worth checking out a distro like Linux Mint. Trying it is as easy as:

    1) Download Virtual Box
    2) Download the latest Linux Mint ISO
    3) Plug the ISO from (2) into Virtual Box (1)
    Ok, I just tried this and it doesn't seem to be working. After booting to mint it just stalls there. I supposed I'll have to experiment a bit before I can get it to work.
    Treeview with NodeAdded/NodesRemoved events | BlinkLabel control | Calculate Permutations | Object Enums | ComboBox with centered items | .Net Internals article(not mine) | Wizard Control | Understanding Multi-Threading | Simple file compression | Demon Arena


    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. -jmcilhinney

  30. #30
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    Re: Results of the annual StackOverflow developer survey

    Ok this isn't working. I tried a couple of different settings, and nothing works. Even Google can't help. The closest I get is when I start in compatibility mode but it stops after a while saying the kernel needs some CPU feature to work. It doesn't even tell me what feature.

    I'm current downloading KDE since Cinnamon isn't working. If this doesn't work, I'll fiddle with it for a couple hours again and do a little more research. I suspect that the VM doesn't play well with Linux.
    Treeview with NodeAdded/NodesRemoved events | BlinkLabel control | Calculate Permutations | Object Enums | ComboBox with centered items | .Net Internals article(not mine) | Wizard Control | Understanding Multi-Threading | Simple file compression | Demon Arena


    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. -jmcilhinney

  31. #31
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    Re: Results of the annual StackOverflow developer survey

    Ok, I just got Cinnamon to boot properly. Seems I needed to use the Ubuntu settings. It would have helped if they said the Linux Mint was based on Ubuntu so I wouldn't have to do so much guess work.
    Treeview with NodeAdded/NodesRemoved events | BlinkLabel control | Calculate Permutations | Object Enums | ComboBox with centered items | .Net Internals article(not mine) | Wizard Control | Understanding Multi-Threading | Simple file compression | Demon Arena


    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. -jmcilhinney

  32. #32
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    Re: Results of the annual StackOverflow developer survey

    Aite, seems to be working now. Its currently installing. Only problem is that its a little sluggish but that's to be expected since it is running in a VM.
    Treeview with NodeAdded/NodesRemoved events | BlinkLabel control | Calculate Permutations | Object Enums | ComboBox with centered items | .Net Internals article(not mine) | Wizard Control | Understanding Multi-Threading | Simple file compression | Demon Arena


    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. -jmcilhinney

  33. #33
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    Re: Results of the annual StackOverflow developer survey

    You don't have to look far to find "crazy" in those survey results. Crazy pops up so often in there that the entire thing can be disregarded as hogwash.

    "Most loved" is Swift? Maybe the responders were thinking Taylor Switft because Swift programmers are a vanishingly small fraction of all developers who have joined SO. Of course they get a lot of non-developers just as any site of its kind, so maybe Apple fans stuffed the ballot box on that? But second prize went to C++ 11? Just as nuts. Followed up by a raft of minor languages, so the insanity continues.

    Looking at SO itself I find a vast number of questions tagged "Swift." Not surprising since it is relatively new and the Apple crowd has never been known for its ability to RTFM.

    Later on we find most of the respondents were web secretaries anyway, which explains the distortions of so many other topic areas. Yes, web developers do exist, as do Word developers. But using Word does not make you into a developer, whether you write VBA macros or not. Nor does typing up web pages with script. Or bashing keys in Visual Studio until a program seems to work.

    And that's without even going into the distinction between "programmer" and "developer" anyway.

    The computer community is big on self-aggrandizement, especially in the lower tiers. I still can't believe the cultural and economic damage Microsoft did by promoting blue collar box jockeys as "IT Professionals."

  34. #34

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    Re: Results of the annual StackOverflow developer survey

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    You don't have to look far to find "crazy" in those survey results. Crazy pops up so often in there that the entire thing can be disregarded as hogwash.

    "Most loved" is Swift? Maybe the responders were thinking Taylor Switft because Swift programmers are a vanishingly small fraction of all developers who have joined SO. Of course they get a lot of non-developers just as any site of its kind, so maybe Apple fans stuffed the ballot box on that? But second prize went to C++ 11? Just as nuts. Followed up by a raft of minor languages, so the insanity continues.

    Looking at SO itself I find a vast number of questions tagged "Swift." Not surprising since it is relatively new and the Apple crowd has never been known for its ability to RTFM.

    Later on we find most of the respondents were web secretaries anyway, which explains the distortions of so many other topic areas. Yes, web developers do exist, as do Word developers. But using Word does not make you into a developer, whether you write VBA macros or not. Nor does typing up web pages with script. Or bashing keys in Visual Studio until a program seems to work.

    And that's without even going into the distinction between "programmer" and "developer" anyway.

    The computer community is big on self-aggrandizement, especially in the lower tiers. I still can't believe the cultural and economic damage Microsoft did by promoting blue collar box jockeys as "IT Professionals."
    All this tells me is:

    1) You have never used Swift, and...
    2) You have never met a professional Apple developer.



    I also don't understand the shock over C++ 11. It introduced a ton of improvements, and old-school developers who aren't used to things like type inference, lambda expressions, standardized support for multithreading and so much more, would absolutely be justified in loving the improvements.
    Check out PhotoDemon, a pro-grade photo editor written completely in VB6. (Full source available at GitHub.)

  35. #35
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    Re: Results of the annual StackOverflow developer survey

    I don't mean to suggest that Swift isn't "lovable" in its community, I just fail to see how it could be ranked as "most loved" since in relative terms it must be a very tiny community.

    Or maybe I didn't understand how the numbers presented were derived.

  36. #36
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    Re: Results of the annual StackOverflow developer survey

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    I don't mean to suggest that Swift isn't "lovable" in its community, I just fail to see how it could be ranked as "most loved" since in relative terms it must be a very tiny community.

    Or maybe I didn't understand how the numbers presented were derived.
    Programming Swift after Objective-C in the raw is like trying a bacon cheeseburger after eating mud off the back of an angry hippo.
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  37. #37
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    Re: Results of the annual StackOverflow developer survey

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanner_H View Post
    All this tells me is:

    1) You have never used Swift, and...
    2) You have never met a professional Apple developer.



    I also don't understand the shock over C++ 11. It introduced a ton of improvements, and old-school developers who aren't used to things like type inference, lambda expressions, standardized support for multithreading and so much more, would absolutely be justified in loving the improvements.
    It would be #2 in my case. Those three words don't go together, in that order, to describe anybody I know. Take out any one of those three words, and I think I know somebody who fits the remaining two, but not all three together.

    I was kind of thinking what SJWhitely seems to be saying: Swift is such a vast improvement over Objective-C that it induces rapturous joy in its users. Since those people would be Apple developers, they aren't going to be voting on many other languages. I certainly didn't read enough into the poll methodology to know whether I'm even close to being right about this, it was just my guess as to what is happening: The love level for those using Swift is unnaturally high because they live in a restricted ecosystem where the alternative is distasteful.
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    Re: Results of the annual StackOverflow developer survey

    You know a professional apple

    Sounds like a plum job.
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  39. #39
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    Re: Results of the annual StackOverflow developer survey

    I do, she's a pink lady, a real peach.
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    Re: Results of the annual StackOverflow developer survey

    Quote Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers View Post
    So in the SO most Dreaded list is says Visual Basic, which i read as Classic VB NOT VB.Net, as i have always called VB.Net VB.Net never Visual Basic.

    And if so then i do understand it being on the most dreaded list Not because of the language at all actually, but simply because there are so many badly written old VB6 apps out there and if you happen to be one of those poor people who have to support them its no fun
    I agree with you that most people associate VB6 as Visual Basic. But there's more to dreading it than just bad code. The IDE is terrible by todays standards. Intellisense was a new concept back then. Viewing arrays is a PITA. The project doesn't save breakpoints when you quit a session. Debugging is a chore in general. VB6 doesn't even support the mouse roller.

    And IMO this is one reason why C# is becoming so popular - Microsoft has focused on providing an IDE that is very productive to use.

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