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Nov 22nd, 2000, 08:58 AM
#41
Thread Starter
Frenzied Member
so the bible(including old and new testiment)
contain errors due to human stupidity
and from your last post, that bible is not complete
you agree to the above?
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Nov 22nd, 2000, 10:01 AM
#42
Addicted Member
Im say that certain parts not every part as I stated. I am not saying the whole old testament has errors. Only certain scriptures.
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Nov 22nd, 2000, 10:26 AM
#43
Thread Starter
Frenzied Member
so in short
SOME of the bible (old and new testiment) have errors
and are SOME what incomplete
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Nov 22nd, 2000, 10:36 AM
#44
Frenzied Member
Rot in Hell!
Kovan, you will rot in hell for all eternity because you were not chosen to be saved by the grace of God!
Those of us who are saved, are given God-inspired eyes which enable us to discern the truth in the Bible, which is the only God-inspired literature that has ever existed.
The God-inspired eyes of the saved are analogous to the miraculous glasses used by Joseph Smith to read the Book of Mormon from gold tablets.
Those who are not saved read the bible with tainted vision and see contradictions where none exist.
Because you are not saved, you will never understand, and no amount of explanation will make it clear to your heathen mind.
In additon to all the religious truths in the bible, those who are saved also see that Quantum physics and Relativity theory are explained in the Book of Revelations. They also see that Genesis explains Newton's almost correct theory of gravitation. Until the Christian Era, God decided that Newtonian physics was as much as the world could understand, leaving Einstein's & Bohr's works to be explained in the last book of the New Testament.
Recent developments in Israel show how all of the world's knowledge is coded into the Bible. Using a computer to analyze the codes, true believers have found predictions of almost all of the important events of the 20th century. When 2100 comes around, they will discover that all of the important events of the 21st century have also been encoded. I am sure that they will soon find a coded list of all the ones who have been chosen to be saved. Your name will not be there.
If somebody took the troubled to do it, a computer analysis of the King James version and other modern translations would also reveal the same encoded data. The Christian God is so powerful that translation of the bible does not hide its truth from those who are saved. We have God inspired eyes.
The real believers can even read the bible when translated into a language they do not know. This ability is only granted when a regular translation is not available in a dire emergency requiring revealed truth.
Live long & prosper.
The Dinosaur from prehistoric era prior to computers.
Eschew obfuscation!
If a billion people believe a foolish idea, it is still a foolish idea!
VB.net 2010 Express
64Bit & 32Bit Windows 7 & Windows XP. I run 4 operating systems on a single PC.
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Nov 22nd, 2000, 10:58 AM
#45
Addicted Member
Guv, why did you place judgement on Kovan? That is not our place. We are here to love, not condem. Did Jesus condem anyone, no. Yet he was sinless. I agree with you but some of those contradictions are valid that he listed. He has valid questions and it is our Job to try and answer him explain things.
Luke 12:14
Jesus replied, "Friend, who made me a judge
over you to decide such things as that?"
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Nov 22nd, 2000, 11:23 AM
#46
Thread Starter
Frenzied Member
jdavison
i think he was being sarcastic
guv - see you in hell then? i will look forward to it
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Nov 22nd, 2000, 11:33 AM
#47
Frenzied Member
He was definitely joking.
Harry.
"From one thing, know ten thousand things."
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Nov 22nd, 2000, 12:05 PM
#48
Addicted Member
I give up. Why does somebody always have to be a jerk?
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Nov 22nd, 2000, 12:08 PM
#49
Thread Starter
Frenzied Member
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Nov 22nd, 2000, 01:43 PM
#50
Addicted Member
I'm not offended just frustrated. I want this to be serious and openminded without out the BS. From the contradictions I believe it is possible there may be some minor errors in the bible at the moment. Like I said I will have to do some research on them, but I will admit there are some possibilities.
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Nov 22nd, 2000, 01:54 PM
#51
Thread Starter
Frenzied Member
perfect
i passed to you the contridictions
post them on here as you find solutions/explainations
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Nov 24th, 2000, 02:03 AM
#52
Interesting...
What Guv has said in jest may well be the truth.
I particularly like the idea that a person's name is written (encoded?) in "The Book of Life" (the bible?) and may be a dimensional "key" to unlock the the "letter of the law and the stroke of the letter". Kind of like how the movie "Contact" had a message in three dimensions and was misaligned when viewed in 2D. Each person's "key" could have been encoded to any dimension, to find out if his/her name was stricken (as they say some names have been "croosed-out" by the bible code) and as verses in the bible speak of being crossed-out.
Guv is a sharp fellow. I'd like you all to consider that just because a man could have done certain things said in the bible, does not mean that God didn't mean it to be so.
[b]All[b]
Good Luck in your search for truth.
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Nov 24th, 2000, 07:19 AM
#53
jdavidson,
There's no such thing as an open minded religious discussion. It's an oxymoron.
Guv's little essay was the funniest thing I've read in ages.
I can't believe the number of religious threads in this forum - nodody is going to win, cos everybody is completely closed to the possibility that they are wrong. Nothing quite as embarrassing as being told your particular brand of god doesn't exist.
I would venture that there are errors, or contradictions, in both the quran and the various versions of the bible.
Those of you who have studied history (at a university level), will know about the introduction of bias and perceptions in documents. There is no such thing as historical fact. All history is subjective, tainted by the time that it was written in, and by the personal situation and beliefs of the person(s) who wrote a given document.
And all history is judged implicitly by ourselves based upon our current views, social ethics etc.
So in 100 years time, people will look back on us and judge us and our society based on their beliefs.
The same holds for both the bible and the quran - are judging these texts based on current views. I know a little about the quran, but not enough to really enter into a decent philosophical discussion about it. The bible I do know a bit about. The present King James version was written/translated a few hundred years ago, and those translations are tainted by the views of the people (monks probably) who wrote it. it would have been an early version of the "information is power" syndrome for them.
Somebody seemed to be arging earlier in this thread about how Moses existence was documented in Egyptian texts - the implication being that he must have existed, the plague must have happened, and therefore the bible is true in it's entirety.
Hate to break it to you, but no, that's not the case. The bible is essentially an historical document, interesting in so far as it seems to provide an interesting window into what life was like in palestine 2000 years ago, but really not much more than that.
Interesting to note that christianity was originally regarded as a cult - just think, in 2000 years, maybe Scientology will be the dominant religion, and everybody will look back on the quaint beliefs of the christians all those eons ago.
Enjoy your debate
- gaffa
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Nov 24th, 2000, 07:36 AM
#54
Thread Starter
Frenzied Member
gaffa
WELL put, very well put, bravo, wo hooooooooo, bravoooo
*calms down*
hehe
and dats all i got to say about THAT
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Nov 24th, 2000, 07:52 AM
#55
kovan,
Don't get too excited
I would be inclined to think that the quran probably has similar inaccuracies in it, simply because I have never read any sort of non-fiction (and I'm beiong very, very generous here by including religious texts as non-fiction) that doesn't have some sort of bias, contradictions etc.
Mind you, that's not to say that either one is wrong or false, just to say that to accept ANY written work as being fact is problematic. All documents need to be looked at in context. Then the usual approach would be to look at other works by the same author, look at works by authors of the same period, and look at the period in which these documents were written etc.
Biggest problem here is that there isn't really much to compare it to (in so far as Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Mohummed weren't exactly Dame Barbara Cartland regrarding output - yeah I know I spelt Mohummed wrong, but there's a million different ways of spelling it)
Kovan, is there an english translation of the quran on-line? I'd be interested to have a browse...
- gaffa
[Edited by gaffa on 11-24-2000 at 07:56 AM]
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Nov 24th, 2000, 08:04 AM
#56
Kovan,
I was just reading the beconvinced.com site, and went to the bit about comparing christianity with islam. Found this about half way down.
The second coming of Jesus.
Christian view (-gaffa)
Accepted. Originally expected to happen during the lifetime of the first disciples, many predictions have been made later and he is still expected at any moment. He is currently anticipated to arrive around the turn of the century (2000 C.E.)
Islam view (-gaffa)
Accepted. Jesus did not die but was raised up into heaven by God. He shall return to earth just before the Day of Judgment in order to kill the "False Messiah" and to establish peace and justice on earth. He will kill the pigs, break the cross, and call all humanity to Islam
Well, kovan, there are going to be some very seriously pissed off christians if jesus decides to pop back for a vists to convert them all to islam. And they'll be pretty peeved if he starts going round breaking crosses too.
It's gonna be pretty funny
- gaffa
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Nov 24th, 2000, 08:37 AM
#57
Thread Starter
Frenzied Member
hehehe
yap it will be PRETTY funny
and i aint kidding
and thats exactly what we believe as far as coming of jesus..
online version of qur'an's interpertation of the meaning
Qur'an
NOTE: that is interpertation of what God said,
so in essense that is "men" translation, and most certainly it contains errors
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Nov 24th, 2000, 08:39 AM
#58
Thread Starter
Frenzied Member
by the way
"islam" means peace,
but it also means "submission to God"
so jesus will basically call everyone to submit to GOD
not him, since we believe he is just a prophet
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Nov 24th, 2000, 08:55 AM
#59
Kovan,
I had a look at that Science and the Quran link you posted in one of the other (now ubiquitous) relgion threads.
Some of the claims there seem to be a bit dodgy. Some stuff listed as coming from the quran first is interesting - the bit about how the sky is held up by "unseen pillars", and by some form of flawed logic can be read as being a reference to the concept of gravity is very Nostradamus-like (ie: easy to see the reference know that we know about gravity, but without knowing about gravity, it doesn't actually present the reader with any real insight. The reader can look outside, see some stars, presume something must hold them up, not see anything actually holding them up, therefore presume that "unseen pillars" are holding them up) I hope that last bit makes sense.
A large part of the science section is stating the blindingly obvious (eg. that the sun and moon aren't the same thing). The existence of sufficently advanced astronomy and cestial science would predate the quran by many centuries - the Aztec and Inca civilisations in particular had very good knowledge of the solar system, including rotation periods, cyclic periods etc.
To be honest beconvinced.com, far from convincing me, really strengthened the point that religion simply twists certain information to make it appear as though it was of divine inspiration.
Yours in atheism ( )
- gaffa
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Nov 24th, 2000, 09:17 AM
#60
Thread Starter
Frenzied Member
did you read the part on embryology?
again: Qur'an is NOT a book of science
just gives you certain information
and it has a lot to do with men's translation as well
i mean there are certian words in the Qur'an that there is absolutely no meaning in english or other languages
even as far as going that there is some words in the qur'an that NO arab literature person undrestands (not yet anyways)
like some of the major chapters start of with "ALIF LAM MIM"
3 words..
(if you read my previous posts, you probably see i said this befoe too)
one thing is certain thou
as time goes by and men advances in knowledge
Qur'an becomes more clear
at least its meaning and what its trying to say
if 1400 years ago
you told someone that EVERYTHING is made up from water
they would hang you
now we can conclude that most of our physical body is water..
and so on so forth
but the fact about it being more undrestood as time goes by is pretty open to me and a lot of other people
if you read history (i know its bias)
but you will see that not much of Qur'an was undrestood before..
in what perticular did you think beconvinced.com twisted what Qur'an said?
just interested
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Nov 24th, 2000, 09:21 AM
#61
Thread Starter
Frenzied Member
its good that you brought up the UNSEEN pillars that hold it up
i mean everyone would presume something is holding them up
as you stated
now same thing goes for the barrier between fresh and salty water..
i mean we KNOW that barrier is THERE
but its unseen with a naked EYE
and qur'an of course clearly states that there is that barrier.. and dont think they had advanced tech to actually make that unseen barrier visible
again i cant stress the fact that qur'an is NOT the book of science.. but it is a book of guidance
i guess i undrestand your point of you
i have FIRM belief in the qur'an
and when i see that it explains modern science
i my belief gets stronger
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Nov 24th, 2000, 09:59 AM
#62
I guess my issue here is that i don't think it is either science, or a guide to science. It's the old 10/10 hindsight thing - it is very easy to say "Oh, so that's what it is" once you know the answer, but from what i read (and I'm reading the embryology section now), it all seems to suffer from such an approach.
I think beconvinced kept taking phrases from the quran, and then found a bit in modern science that sort of said that same thing, then passed that off as "the quran said this was how it works". It comes down to a hindsight thing. It's also conceptually a bit hard to put into words (ie. I'm having problems phrasing what I mean)
Ok, read the embryo section. The Gum-embryo thing is tenuous at best. The nourishment reference (about the mother feeding the child) is again very obvious - the umbilical cord has been around a lot longer than any form of religion, and is an obvious connection to the mother.
In the case of a miscarried pregnancy, it is not inconceivable that someone could easily look at the life cycle of an unborn child and work out the stages of development.
I guess the thing for me is that I get a bit sceptical when any religion claims to have foretold any sort of scientific development. As I said before, the Incas and Aztecs have amazingly advanced celestial sciences, yet, to the best of my knowledge, these developments were not attributed to a partiocular divine intervention (although they were based around sun and moon worship)
Still, it's an interesting topic. All the more better that you and me, Kovan, can have a proper discussion with being ridiculously childish like other people around here (subtle jibe )
I'll keep reading...
- gaffa
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Nov 24th, 2000, 10:56 AM
#63
Thread Starter
Frenzied Member
i think a good discussion can happen if both parties know the issues their discussion
i mean you dont see me saying "i think all doctors suck and they have no clue what their doing.."
i know nothing or close to NOTHING about medicine (good thing i changed career fields)
maybe you miss unrestood
i meant qur'an is not a book of science and neither is a guidance to book of science..
i meant its a GUIDANCE to life in general
and for me (i try to follow most of my life based on it, notice i used the word TRY )
so far i have not came to any point where i feel that i am betrayed
so as far as it keeps this way
i think i will believe the same if not more
but you read up
and we DISCUSS
and hopefully it wont get childish
and i dont think i am the type of person that will attack you if you THINK something is not right..
your entitled to your opinion
but as long as you can discuss your opinion in a well mannered way
what am saying is like you said you dont think qur'an is a book to science or at least most of the things about science are common knowledge
well i could have attacked you and said
NO THIS IS A BOOK THAT WAS REVEALED 1400 YEARS AGO HOW DARE YOU QUESTION IT
but that would just be stupid and that would lead to other problems, so hopefully that wont happen
and definately up for a nice well mannered discussion
===========================
if you read my other posts
about the challenge
find ONE mistake in it
and the whole thing is invalid
thats what qur'an challenges every human
happy searching
remember if you need help with undrestanding something
just gimme a shout
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Nov 24th, 2000, 10:14 PM
#64
No worries Kovan,
And I'm not going to bother to try and disporove your contradictions list in the bible, cos I reckon you're probably right - although all things like this are open to interpretation.
Oh well, the religiious discussions continue....
- gaffa
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Nov 25th, 2000, 09:01 AM
#65
Hyperactive Member
To all you relegious ignorant beings ,
To preach to the "Common Man" is an Utter waste of time . The average person doesn't need a book to tell him not to **** his neighbors wife . What these stupid relegious people should be talking to are the leaders of "Coperate America" and other countries as They are the ones that would have to change things . After all Money talks and and your god walks . Relegion was invented by " Coperate Gods " to keep the lonley ole peasents in line ( Thats Us ) ,to strike fear into our hearts that if we did something they "DEEMED" wrong we pay for all eterity . It's nothing but shock value . Relegion is nothing but buissness . All your relegions will die out in the next 20 years . Who has time to go and sit in church and listen to someone say "Be Good" or the Devil will get you . No one does . We can't even cook for ourselves anymore , all our time is spent at "Work" . Thats the way "GOD" likes it . while we are at church you can be sure they pass around the "Collection Plate " , make sure you give enough or you'll be asked to find a new church . So try to by your seats in heaven , I'm making mine here .
Well damn me to Hell if you want , I'm off to Vahala or is it Heaven , Nirvana , oops my bad it's a 15 minute break from our "coperate gods" ,
Robert
AKA
[]P
Visual Basic 6 SP4 on win98se
QUIT THE RAT RACE BECAUSE YOUR MESSING THE WORLD UP !!!!!
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