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Thread: HarryW, JDavidson

  1. #1

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    you know harry, i really tried to UNDRESTAND the concept
    and i undrestand no one is asking me to BELIEVE in it
    already passed that stage
    but i havent gotten the concept figured out
    how 1 can be 3, and one of the 3 can be a subset(son)
    it just doesnt make SENSE

    no i dont believe God can die
    since he is not like humans in any physical way
    i can give you references to Qur'an where it says God cant die but i dont think your interested in that..
    so i and any other believing muslim dont believe God an ever die
    , he wasn't born from anyone, no one will be born from him,
    there is NOTHING that can be compared to him
    here is one verse in the quran that illustrates what i am trying to say

    Code:
    112.001 
    YUSUFALI: Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; 
    PICKTHAL: Say: He is Allah, the One! 
    SHAKIR: Say: He, Allah, is One. 
    
    112.002 
    YUSUFALI: Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; 
    PICKTHAL: Allah, the eternally Besought of all! 
    SHAKIR: Allah is He on Whom all depend. 
    
    112.003 
    YUSUFALI: He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; 
    PICKTHAL: He begetteth not nor was begotten. 
    SHAKIR: He begets not, nor is He begotten. 
    
    112.004 
    YUSUFALI: And there is none like unto Him. 
    PICKTHAL: And there is none comparable unto Him. 
    SHAKIR: And none is like Him.
    the above is an interpertation of what God said
    if you want to know its true form, please refer to Arabic...

    [Edited by kovan on 11-15-2000 at 09:48 AM]

  2. #2
    Frenzied Member HarryW's Avatar
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    Well then why did you say that if the Son died on Earth that God would die? It's not an easy concept, but it's not as ridiculous as you pretend. Three aspects of the same being. Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Three parts of God. It's not too hard to grasp. I'm not saying it's necessarily true, I don't have any strong feelings about it, but I don't have a problem with the concept.

    I don't understand what the problem is with one being made up of three parts, each of which is a subset of the whole. To put it in mathematical terms (which seems somewhat vulgar considering the subject matter):

    God = {Father, Son, Holy Spirit}

    I don't think that you can talk about this kind of thing in a mathematical way but it seems to make things easier for this.
    Harry.

    "From one thing, know ten thousand things."

  3. #3

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    ok i undrestand the fact that christians believe as the 3 "folds"
    i undrestand they BELIEVE that
    but what doesnt make sense is, how does one become the son, and die, but the other 2 are alive
    just doent make sense

    you know harry, believe me no matter how hard you try you wont be able to make me undrestand,
    not because i am hard headed, but because it JUST doesnt make sense
    i have had priests explain it, theologians
    and many more, it just doesnt make sense
    ya math is a bad example
    cus if its a triangle
    if one angle dies, or falls, you dont have a triangle anymore

    sorry but it just doesnt make sense to me
    i undrestand what the concept is
    but the concept doesnt make sense

  4. #4
    Frenzied Member HarryW's Avatar
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    But does He really die? You said yourself that God cannot die. As far as I am aware, according to the Christian fath, Jesus still exists, just in Heaven instead of on Earth. Death is a mortal concept.
    Harry.

    "From one thing, know ten thousand things."

  5. #5

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    see thats the hardest part
    according to christians, jesus died for "MY" i mean ME, I, sins
    so if he died, and he is god, then be is son of god
    yet god is alive, but jesus is dead.. hmm
    i think some things best if left alone
    the only reason i brought it up again was cus jdavidson asked me..

    according to my belief, jesus never actually died, physically, mentally, spiritually, and he is still alive


  6. #6
    Frenzied Member HarryW's Avatar
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    Well if you have been following the threads on this and surrounding subjects, the idea is that the sacrifice Jesus made was having God turn His back on him. That was His 'death' as far as I can make out. I don't think that means He's non-existent though, even if He did die on Earth. You are applying mortal concepts to an non-mortal being.
    Harry.

    "From one thing, know ten thousand things."

  7. #7

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    of course i am applying a mortal concept to a non mortal being according to christinity

    but if he is immoral
    so there was no sacrifice in the first place

    the idea is that the sacrifice Jesus made was having God turn His back on him.
    i thought you just said they were the same? so how can one have turned his back to the other?

    why did i apply die to jesus? (i dont believe he ever died)
    but i was trying to undrestand what christian say
    as far as i undrestand what christians believe

    [according to christians]
    he was hanged on a cross, blood came from his body
    and eventually died..

    so you dont call that DEATH?
    if one believes that he died, and they dont all this event death then they have some serious problems


    to sum it up
    if jesus is immortal
    then where is the sacrifice?
    and if the sacrifice is the fact that god turn his back him
    that applies that jesus and god are NOT one

    you see nothing makes sense
    i am trying to be as LOGICAL as i POSSIBLY can be to try and grasp it, but i cant cus it doesnt make sense
    the more you dig this up the more it doesnt make sense

  8. #8
    Frenzied Member HarryW's Avatar
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    Well I don't even believe it and it makes sense to me. If you want explanations of the sacrifice Jesus made then look at past threads, the topic has been well covered there.
    Harry.

    "From one thing, know ten thousand things."

  9. #9
    Frenzied Member HarryW's Avatar
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    Incidentally, crucifixion (sp?) results in death by suffocation. Your definition of death is applicable to mortals but you have said that you don't think that a Deity can die. Jesus is part of a Deity, so whether or not His physical form dies is irrelevant, as He will live on forever in Heaven regardless.

    (note: these are not necessarily my beliefs)
    Harry.

    "From one thing, know ten thousand things."

  10. #10

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    HarryW

    that is correct that i have said deity doesnt die
    but you see i dont believe jesus is a deity
    he was a man, just like you and I


    so if i believed jesus was a god or mini god or part of god
    that would make sense
    but i dont believe jesus was anything other than a man who was a prophet of God

    i think we should just leave it as it is
    ....


    but here is one more thing i dont get
    ...
    if jesus "died" or God turned his back on jesus (or any type of punishment, suffering) for MY sins
    then that says i can do what ever i want, if i believe in jesus, i am automatically forgiven (at least thats the value most christians hold), that if you believe in jesus, your "saved"

    you dont have to answer, its just another rethorical question..

  11. #11
    Frenzied Member HarryW's Avatar
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    Well I'm not going to answer it, I've seen it answered before many times on this forum, and if you want the answers you can go and find them.


    Anyway I think you're missing the point slightly. This is not to do with your beliefs or mine. We agreed already that you don't have to believe in it. What your personal beliefs are on whether Jesus was part of a Deity or not are totally irrelevant. You started this thread to find out what the Trinity was. If you take the attitude that if you don't believe it then it's not valid then you shouldn't have started the thread.

    I'm not trying to convince you of it's truth, I'm not convinced myself, I'm just trying to explain the way it works.
    so if i believed jesus was a god or mini god or part of god that would make sense
    Then my work is done, you say you understand it.
    Harry.

    "From one thing, know ten thousand things."

  12. #12

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    maybe i rewarded what i tried to say in a wrong way

    we both agree that i undrestand the concept
    meaning that i know what christians say the trinity is
    they say 3 make one
    fair enough that makes sense
    what i STILL dont undrestand is (the part that i am trying to tackle) is HOW that concept makes sense

    and actually i started this thread because you asked
    "Do you believe that God can die.." or something along that line

    and actually my personal belief has everything to do with weather i undrestand HOW trinity make sense..

    because if i knew how, and it made sense, you could say that i would definately believe in christianity, because that is the MAJOR difference between islam and christianity

    all i am saying is if trinity made sense, then i would believe in it
    but it doesnt


    n e ways dude no hard feelings
    i was just taking ANOTHER shot at trying to undrestand it
    i guess it didn't happen, o well
    life is tough

    by the way.. if you dont mind me asking
    you dont sound like an athiest
    yet from how I undrestand it is you dont believe in any religion


  13. #13
    Frenzied Member HarryW's Avatar
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    Well I'm not an atheist, that's probably why I don't sound like one. Doesn't mean I believe though.
    Harry.

    "From one thing, know ten thousand things."

  14. #14

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    Sorry to butt in...

    Kovan,
    1. The Trinity consists of Jesus(the Son), God(the Father), and the Spirit(the Holy Ghost).
    2. Jesus came to earth as a man. The Bible says that he "became flesh." He was all God, yet all man.
    3. Jesus died a physical death. It was not a "mental" death, or a "spiritual" death. He died a bloody death on a cross. The Bible says he was made a sacrifice for all mens' sins. Yes, it was probably from suffocation.
    4. Jesus was put in a tomb after he died.
    5. On the third day after his death, he came back to life. He conquered Satan and is alive today.
    6. After his death, there were numerous eyewitnesses of Jesus being alive. He returned to his followers and stayed with them for awhile. After that he rose throught the clouds and ascended to heaven.

    My question to you is...
    Who exactly do YOU think Jesus was?



    HarryW,
    Long time, no chat.

  16. #16

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    Edwin i think you out to drop it
    that just made me disbelieve more
    like HarrW said
    i and him agree on the thought that i undrestand what trinity is..
    so why dont you leave it at that?

    if you really wanna get into it
    why did he die a physical death? for our sins?
    if he is immortal
    what did his physical death do?
    dude it just DOESNT fit
    now can you please drop it?

    My question to you is...
    Who exactly do YOU think Jesus was?
    i think i have answered this numerous times, but here it goes again

    Jesus peace be upon him, was/is a MAN (mortal man)
    messanger of God
    Son Of Mary
    Him and and his mother are the ONLY 2 human beings protected from satan (meaning satan cant go near them)
    he never died
    he will come back to defeat whats so called Anti-Christ (Dajjal)

    if you want to learn more about Jesus peace be upon him
    read the following..
    Chapter Mary
    dont try to explain trinity, you will just confuse me more than i am already

  17. #17
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    why did he die a physical death?
    From the Bible, John 3:16
    "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son that whosoever believeth in him shall not die but have eternal life."

    for our sins?
    Yes, he loves all men and desires them to be saved.

    what did his physical death do?
    He BECAME flesh for us. He suffered a human death as a sacrifice. He became death so that we might have life.




    So you would say that Jesus was/is a good man?

  18. #18

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    man you do not undrestand drop it do you?

    give it a rest..
    i already TOLD you
    i believe bible is fabricated, its not word of god
    its word of men, its corrupt, and it will always be corrupt
    now you happy?
    and the more you try to prove from something corrupt.. the more i get the idea that its even more corrupted

    if you want to get into this
    start a thread
    and we can get into this in depth
    but as far as i am concerned, bible is CORRUPT

    one last thing
    if you want to prove it to me that its NOT corrupt
    dont quote from the bible,
    go back on those threads i gave you on contridictions in the bible
    and JUSTIFY those
    if you post anything other than try to justify those contridictions, i will think that you have no ground to stand on and you cant explain your own beliefs


    and yes
    jesus IS a man,


    [Edited by kovan on 11-15-2000 at 02:51 PM]

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    Stop avoiding my question.

    So you would say that Jesus was/is a **GOOD** man?



    The Bible is not corrupt. It is the word of God perfect. It was written by men, but was 100% inspired by God. I could just as well say the Koran is corrupt. Have I?

    And no, I do not have the time right now to read all your rambling threads.


  20. #20

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    Qur'an is Corrupt? that would be an interesting thread woudn't it? you cant say qur'an is corrupt because you dont know a darn thing about it..
    and you have to have some kind of proof to say its corrupt dont you think?
    if you say Qur'an is corrupt out of the BLUE
    that shows your intelligence i guess..

    why did i say bible is corrupt?
    i posted so many SO called contridictions..
    i want an explanation for those contridictions for me to be convinced that bible is not corrupt
    until then bible is corrupt

    and it wont bother me if you say Qur'an is corrupt
    honestly it wont, go right ahead..


    back to Jesus (pbuh)

    dude did you read that chapter i posted above?
    Jesus, Moses, Muhammad, Joseph, Abraham, Jacob, Lot,.. (pbut) were ALL prophets of God
    there for they were ALL **GOOD** men

    and when did i avoid your questions?
    i already told you i believe jesus was a prophet of
    God and that should tell you that if he was a prophet that means he is GOOD, woudn't it be ironic if he was evil?

    i just dont like to get into this with you in to deep
    cus i feel that you dont possess the intelligence to answer and debate at my level
    *if you take that as in insult go right ahead, i just feel that way*


    [Edited by kovan on 11-15-2000 at 03:10 PM]

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    Then how come you say he didn't die for your sins? He said "I am the way the truth and the life." Either he was a good man and prophet, or he was a liar. Never both.
    And NO, this is not just "out of the bible" it is from one of the numerous texts that make up the bible. These texts are the most historically accurate ancient texts that can be found.

    You tell me to stop quoting from the Bible. Why then do you quote from the Koran?

    I did not say the Koran is corrupt. That has no bearing right now on the discussion except the fact that you call the Bible corrupt but believe in the Koran.

    Truly great men never stoop so low as to tread on others.

  22. #22

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    when i meant the bible
    i meant ALL (new testimate and old)

    who says you cant be good and prophet
    a prophet MUST be a good man inorder to convince people

    you asked me questions, specially about jesus
    i quoted from the qur'an because thats what i believe in

    He said "I am the way the truth and the life."
    according to what text?
    like i said i dont believe in any christian or christian related text, historical documents.. ect
    since i believe its all corrupt due to mens munipulation of the message..

    originally by Kovan
    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------(by Edwin..)
    My question to you is...
    Who exactly do YOU think Jesus was?

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    i think i have answered this numerous times, but here it goes again

    Jesus peace be upon him, was/is a MAN (mortal man)
    messanger of God
    Son Of Mary
    Him and and his mother are the ONLY 2 human beings protected from satan (meaning satan cant go near them)
    he never died
    he will come back to defeat whats so called Anti-Christ (Dajjal)

    if you want to learn more about Jesus peace be upon him
    read the following..
    Chapter Mary
    dont try to explain trinity, you will just confuse me more than i am already
    if you look at the above
    you are CLEARLY asking ME who I (ME) think jesus is,
    so to answer your question of course
    i answered it based on my beliefs
    and thats what i believe he is

    is that clear or do i need to go on more?

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    You are still avoiding my question.

    Then how come you say he didn't die for your sins? He said "I am the way the truth and the life." Either he was a good man and prophet, or he was a liar. Never both.
    And NO, this is not just "out of the bible" it is from one of the numerous texts that make up the bible. These texts are the most historically accurate ancient texts that can be found. I am not a historian who has indepth knowledge of such texts. Are you? If you want, look it up. You will find that I am correct.

    ******Either he was a good man and prophet, or he was a liar. Which do you say he was?********

    You quote Koran attempting to defeat the Bible. You say you don't believe the Bible because someone could easily manipulate it. There are exact accounts in mulitiple texts. The all agree. Furthormore, you believe the Koran which could JUST HAVE EASILY been changed.

  24. #24

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    can you prove it?
    show me how quran is changed, find ONE contridiction in it

    he was good man and prophet
    and no he was not a liar
    the quote you gave is fabricated
    meaning HE NEVER SAID THAT
    ok?

    what your trying to do is use what i said
    then try to use bible to prove me wrong
    doesnt work

    i said he was a prophet and a good main
    your claiming that i am saying he is a lair
    he never lied
    what your quoting,, jesus NEVER said that

    do i need to repeat one more time?

    i am off work
    see you tomorrow

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    I didn't say it had contradiction. I said IT JUST AS EASILY COULD HAVE BEEN CHANGED. You apply this to the Bible, I say it is also true for the Koran.

    You believe that the Koran was written by a prophet called Muhammad. do you not? That means you have defeated the Koran with the same arguement you use against the Bible.

    If the Bible is not true, than why is it the MOST accurate account of ancient times and why did AUTHORS WHO NEVER MET EACH OTHER write the exact same account?

  26. #26

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    nope
    qur'an was never written by any prophet
    like i said man, get your facts straight and i dont want to discuss this cus you dont posses the intelligence
    and you just proved my theory

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    I retract my former statement. This is my revised statement.

    I didn't say it had contradiction. I said IT JUST AS EASILY COULD HAVE BEEN CHANGED. You apply this to the Bible, I say it is also true for the Koran.

    You believe that part of the Koran was recieved by a prophet called Muhammad. You believe that the scribes Ali Ibn Abi Talib, Zayed Ibn Thabit, Ubey Ibn Ka'ab, Mu'awiyah Ibn Abi Sufyan, and perhaps others recorded it. do you not? That means you have defeated the Koran with the same arguement you use against the Bible.

    If the Bible is not true, than why is it the MOST accurate account of ancient times and why did AUTHORS WHO NEVER MET EACH OTHER write the exact same account?

  28. #28

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    ok
    on that note
    can you do me a favour
    can you find one so called contridiction in the qur'an
    while i have provided over 100 for you..

    now your talking like a man
    so lets discuss this..
    so i will wait for those explanation of those contridictions
    and wait for you as well to come up with ONE that you can find in the qur'an

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    ***I didn't say it had contradiction. I said IT JUST AS EASILY COULD HAVE BEEN CHANGED. You apply this to the Bible, I say it is also true for the Koran.***

    100? I suppose you rounded farthest hundred?

  30. #30

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    i havent posted them all yet
    i will thou

    you could assume a LOT of things
    but when you have nothing to back your assumption then you just dont have a case..

    and if you didn't say it had contridictions

    could it be divine?
    dotn answer that unless you know little about it
    or you could just say no out of the blue

    [Edited by kovan on 11-16-2000 at 06:56 AM]

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    Tag, I'm in

    Just a note, some of those contradiction are not really contradictions they were just straight historical accounts of what happened. others were out of context. some of them may have even been due to translators which is why I want an actual hebrew copy of the scriptures to check on those. Thats neither here nor there. From what you posted of the quran, it doesn't actually say God(alah) can't die, just that he will be forever. big difference because Jesus Died physically but rose from the dead conquering death for us freeing us from the bondage of our sins. His victory was not his death on the cross but in his rise from the dead. This has been noted in many historical documents from that time supporting the fact that many of the prophets and men of god rose from the dead at that time and was recorded by the non believing. Also I want to say that in a way you are right that if you believe christ died for your sins you can pretty much do whatever you want. It's not our good deads that get us in heaven but the acceptance of Jesus in our hearts. But is you truely love Jesus, wouldn't you want to do those things he said anyway?

    HarryW- I'm not sure if it was you that said this about not being sure if there is a hell. There is, It is actually mentioned in the bible.

    Job 31:12 and PR 2:18

    There is actually a small description to that I'm trying to find for you.

  32. #32

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    it doesnt actually say God cant die?
    hahahahah
    dude honestly you and Edwin have NO clue what even islam is all about
    so why try and say Qur'an doesnt say God(Allah) doesnt die?

    right now i am at work
    i dont have my books here so i will give you the references to where it says he cant die..
    fair enough?

    again, if you want to discuss islam
    i suggest you learn about it first so you have some ground to stand on

    oh and about HARRYW

    i think he has said he doesnt believe in the bible
    so why quote from the bible

    typical of a blind christian..

  33. #33

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    ohh and i do TRUELY love Jesus
    yet he didn't say MOST of the things bible clamied he said
    so there for i love the guy
    but i dont love the people that make up stuff and say he said the stuff

    *may peace be upon him*

  34. #34
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    Post Let us reason together - Isaiah 1:18

    First, I didn't read all of this, only the beginning, so I don't know if this will help or was already covered.

    There are 2 Deaths according to the Bible
    Have you looked into that, kovan? It was my first (or among the first answers--is that also a contradiction--among the first?) replies to your questions/posts about Trinity and Death of a God. If you haven't looked that up and I haven't taught you how to fish; I will now give you a fish.

    I appologize for doing this because I also believe, "Give a man a fish, feed him for a day; teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime".

    The 1st Death is physical death; what we see around us; that common thing that we attend at funerals.

    The 2nd Death is spiritual death; a separation from God. Sin separates us from God. The wages of Sin is Death. The unsaved are spiritually dead.

    I once was not "impressed" with Jesus' physical death because I believed that others have suffered and died worse deaths, but when you factor in the spiritual death, you see the worth in the statement of an entity that was with God (the Father) for eternity past..."My God, My God, why have you abondoned me?" You will now say, "How can I abandon myself or separate myself from myself?", but you are forgetting that when we speak of Father, Son, Holy Spirit, they are separate aspects that can be spoken of in that way.

    You say that you have respect for Jesus (as well you should). Which statements are correct about Jesus from the Bible and which are not? Does the prophet Jesus blaspheme?! "I and the Father are One", says Jesus.

    Do you believe that two become one flesh? This is the union of a man and a woman.

    The two become one and become two and become more than two (when parents conceive children)-- I don't think it's spelled out like that in the bible.

    Have you learned of the plurality of the third word of the Hebrew text "Eloheem or some such"? That word is the word for God and is a plural form, but there are many statements that God is One God. An apparent contradiction to your finite mind may well not be a contradiction to the mind of God. Haven't you been exposed to the frailty of your person? Who are you with respect to God? Yet He says, "Let us reason together". Isaiah 1:18

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    That is from what you said

    No where in there does it say God can't die, only that he is eternal. There is a difference.
    112.001
    YUSUFALI: Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
    PICKTHAL: Say: He is Allah, the One!
    SHAKIR: Say: He, Allah, is One.

    112.002
    YUSUFALI: Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
    PICKTHAL: Allah, the eternally Besought of all!
    SHAKIR: Allah is He on Whom all depend.

    112.003
    YUSUFALI: He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
    PICKTHAL: He begetteth not nor was begotten.
    SHAKIR: He begets not, nor is He begotten.

    112.004
    YUSUFALI: And there is none like unto Him.
    PICKTHAL: And there is none comparable unto Him.
    SHAKIR: And none is like Him.
    These are your scriptures that you posted are they not. If you say not then cut and paste screwed up. But see your baising you beliefs off of the islam religion and not looking for the truth in your own scripture. Oh wait, theyare corrupted, atleast except muhammad.

    Glad to see you back VVB

  36. #36

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    let me make this short and sweet
    "i and father are one"
    thats from the bible correct?
    that i dont believe
    so you cant use that to TRY and prove that God and him were one

    and this trinity thing is KILLED not just gone over

    i believe what JESUS pbuh said is 100% correct, accurate, right on da money
    ok
    now dont give me any more bible stuff
    because i do NOOT believe bible is the word of jesus (maybe some of it, but even if some of it) its mens interpertation of what jesus said (which i believe God told him to say it..)
    so since men WROTE the bible (and bible is mens interpertation of Gods word)
    then i just reject it right there and then
    on the fact that men are INPERFECT

    like i have mentioned before
    dont use bible to try to jesus said something

    in english
    am saying i believe jesus never said anything that was NOT true
    however, since bible is NOT direct word of god
    then i believe what te bible says about jesus and saying jesus said so on is NOT correct

    You say that you have respect for Jesus (as well you should).
    why should i? i mean if i wasnt muslim i woudn't have slightest respect for him, but part of my belief is to believe in jesus (that doesnt mean believe in people that speak for jesus)

    Do you believe that two become one flesh? This is the union of a man and a woman.
    maybe you dont know my stand on this whole jesus issue yet
    i dont believe he ever died, physically, spiritually, mentally or any other way..
    and i dont believe he became anything other than what he was already, and that was he was a prophet

    what parts of the bible do i believe in

    that jesus performed miracles (with Gods permission)
    the story of Lot
    most of the story of Noah
    i can go on forever
    but since i BELIEVE KNOW bible is men written
    i discard it all,

    why bring hebrew into this
    as far as i was concerned, as you christians claim
    that jesus spoke aramaic
    so if its written in greek or hebrew
    than that just shows more corruption since jesus spole aramaic (if i am missing something fill me in)

    and i think this trinity ting should be dropped
    cus the more you guyz explain the more i think bible is corrupt

    and i am STILL waiting for thos explaination of thos so called contridictions i posted, NO one has answered them yet

    and read my new post titled VIRTUALLVB..





  37. #37
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    kovan
    You may address me as "VirtuallyVB"; watch the spelling! Or as "VVB". Anything less from a person so interested in precision is an insult.

    You began this thread with a question on the trinity. If you don't want to discuss it, use a different thread.

    How would a God make "himself" known? By using references that are not known by the person "he" wanted "himself" revealed to? No. Unfortunately, the references must have been of the type understood at the time of the revelation, unless the revelation was for a different time. Another unfortunate fact is that this method can be viewed as untrustworthy to a person trying to disprove a revelation of this God. The language I'm writing to you now has limits of gender. "Why didn't God give me the sign that I was looking for?--This is arrogance.

    I don't know of any document not written by man. At best, man was the secretary for God. I think the bible claims that God penned the ten commandments into stone (but that could have been a movie claim). Either way, Moses had enough time to carve it himself in my opinion. This leaves room for unbelievers, although it could have been "penned/carved" by God. Jesus didn't actually write the bible we read, so why expect an Aramaic text? Who was the audience of the original text or any text for that matter?

    Your claim that the Quran was written by God is at least as weak as Christians claiming that the bible was written by God.

    You really should try and group what you believe about Jesus from the Bible and from the Quran. You might find that you are trusting the bible more than you would like. Then tell me (or yourself) if you are trusting a blaspheming prophet or the Son of God of what can be "allowed to be known 'with God's permission'" through the writings of a man acting as the secretary for God.

    kovan, the only arguments you have ever provided (and it wasn't even your own arguments) were the ones on specific numbers like eight versus eighteen. I am not qualified to address those although personally I question what is scripture (that written by a secretary of God for God's purpose to be included in the writings) and what is historical accounting with no "dictation" by God. There is a verse that says, "All scripture is God-breathed".

    Whichever "religion/way-of-life/God" you choose to follow, make sure you are thinking for yourself. Don't lie to yourself. We all struggle with that. What are the fundamental truths? What is truth?

    A man always does the interpretation until... oops, what if it becomes time for God's interpretation?

    Regards.

    [Edited by VirtuallyVB on 11-18-2000 at 02:57 PM]

  38. #38

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    hmm

    VVB
    you know Gen X was right about one thing
    that you try to work around whats presented and bring out something that will try to cover the issue thats on the table

    if the arguement saying God wrote the Qur'an is as week as christians claim
    i want you to find ONE, i mean ONE REAL contridiction...

    i have presented you with over 100 from the bible that you, or ANYONE else who believes in christianity have NOT
    i repeat, have NOT even explained them and convince me that its not a contridiction..

    about trinity
    i already SAID i know exactly how you guyz belive in it
    however i do NOT, repeat do NOT think it makes sense at ALL
    thats why you should just drop the trinity issue and this post took to another level and trinity was dropped

    so in short
    can you PLEASE try to explain the contridictions in the bible that i have posted on this thread so long ago
    til you or someone convinces me, those are 100% contridictions.

  39. #39
    Frenzied Member HarryW's Avatar
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    Kovan, is this really a reason to believe that a text was written by God? That it 'has no contradictions'? I could show you a maths textbook with no contradictions in it, that doesn't mean it's written by God. I can accept that you think the Bible is corrupt (although I wouldn't necessarily agree with you, I think it's open to debate), but to say that the Koran's lack of apparent contradictions shows that it was written by God and not written by a human secretary (as I have heard them called) seems a little.... well.... unreasonable.

    Also, I have to be honest, I think you're relating the idea to your beliefs and dismissing it based on them, and I think that that's a bad way to look at it. You are saying it's unreasonable because you don't believe in the concepts that surround it - particularly Jesus being a part of God. I don't really relate to you on this, I can't see how you can look at it like that and be confident that you've assessed it fairly enough to say it doesnn't make sense. It does make sense if you have Christian beliefs, but clearly if you don't then it doesn't. That doesn't mean it's wrong! It's all a matter of opinion.
    Harry.

    "From one thing, know ten thousand things."

  40. #40
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    kovan
    I'm surprised your logic has carried you this far. Or maybe I should expect your logic to have carried you to where you are.

    I addressed your 1st 5 contradictions (you mis-numbered them, remember?) and even your 2nd 5. Did you really post 100? Or did you round 15 to 100?

    If you "rounded", then I'll dismiss all your numeric apparent contradictions and say they follow your same algorithm for rounding.

    If you recall, I gave you the benefit of the doubt and scored the 1st 5 as only 80% for the bible and 20% questionable. A percentage that I didn't approve of.

    Anyway, your "contradictions" do not shake me to my soul. You however, might want to consider what it means to not have a savior, or worse yet, a blaspheming prophet.

    Actually, it's worse to not have a savior, but I'll leave that as an exercise to the reader.

    Good luck in your search.

    Hey, are true Islam descendents of Hagar who bore Ishmael? Not like Joe Blow that can become a muslim, but the actual Islamic lineage?

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