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Thread: OOP is Evil Yet Essential

  1. #81
    transcendental analytic kedaman's Avatar
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    hehehe.. well then you'd better start learning and get familiar with a broader range of tools or you wont get anywhere
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    To throw away OOP for low level languages is myopia, to keep OOP is hyperopia. To throw away OOP for a high level language is insight.

  2. #82
    Retired G&G Mod NoteMe's Avatar
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    I am programing in VB, C++, PHP, JAVA, ASM I think that is enough for now.....or do you see what kind of app that I should make that needs an other tool?

  3. #83
    transcendental analytic kedaman's Avatar
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    well if you are the horses for courses person, i'm just saying that you should not stop aspiring in other languages, as for that is a very small and weak set of tools
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    writing software in C++ is like driving rivets into steel beam with a toothpick.
    writing haskell makes your life easier:
    reverse (p (6*9)) where p x|x==0=""|True=chr (48+z): p y where (y,z)=divMod x 13
    To throw away OOP for low level languages is myopia, to keep OOP is hyperopia. To throw away OOP for a high level language is insight.

  4. #84
    Retired G&G Mod NoteMe's Avatar
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    No way it is small and week. I would rather learn how to make 3D models then to learn Functional programming....

  5. #85
    transcendental analytic kedaman's Avatar
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    do whatever you want note, but if you tell me again that you will program under that banner i will have to slap you in the face
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    writing software in C++ is like driving rivets into steel beam with a toothpick.
    writing haskell makes your life easier:
    reverse (p (6*9)) where p x|x==0=""|True=chr (48+z): p y where (y,z)=divMod x 13
    To throw away OOP for low level languages is myopia, to keep OOP is hyperopia. To throw away OOP for a high level language is insight.

  6. #86
    Retired G&G Mod NoteMe's Avatar
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    Adding it to my sig now...

  7. #87
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    Kedaman, it is a noble thing you are doing but if I want to put food on my families table and make the house payment, I will continue to focus on the skills that get me jobs. In all of my years writing code both as an employee and employer, never have I had a task where the end user told me, "and make sure you use one of those new fangled functional languages."

    Note Me is right on the money with 'Use the right tool for the right job'. If we do a project for some company that intends to keep the source code for their IT staff on the west coast to modify next year (or whenever), you can sure as heck bet that they want that code in a language that is well documented and has a ready available pool of talented developers able to continue on where we left off. They (nor do I) want to search the nation for one or two of the 15 guys that can program in Haskell (not that those 15 guys are working anyway. Monster.com is currently listing zero employers looking for Haskell programmers and Dice has one listing but also includes a requirment for strong experience in OO languages including C# or Java)

    If the job calls for a quick little front end to a database, VB or Delphi (or Java depending on the needs) fit the bill. For other projects it may be Java or C++. For web services, it's going to be .NET hands down (probably C# but it might be VB.NET depending on who I assign the project to). If I had a client that wanted us to do an FPS (yea, like that's gonna happen) then we are breaking out the C++ all by itself. Once again, the right tool for the right job. Infact, through out this entire thread, I don't believe you have mentioned any mission critical applications (or any other type of apps for that matter) in specific that are written in your language of choice (with the exception of a vague reference to ericsson).

    My money is going to stay on the OOP table for now thank you.

  8. #88
    transcendental analytic kedaman's Avatar
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    well. you do what you want, its your money, its your business.. Somehow I don't see how money is playing such a huge part in everyones life after all but thats another story. I concentrate on potential, what I can accomplish, you may have something else in interest, but thats your business not mine.
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    writing software in C++ is like driving rivets into steel beam with a toothpick.
    writing haskell makes your life easier:
    reverse (p (6*9)) where p x|x==0=""|True=chr (48+z): p y where (y,z)=divMod x 13
    To throw away OOP for low level languages is myopia, to keep OOP is hyperopia. To throw away OOP for a high level language is insight.

  9. #89
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    Guess I need to move to Finland then because by your statements I can only assume that food and houses are free there. It's not ALL about money. It is about providing for my family first and giving my customers what they want second. My family likes to eat and my customers want robust Windows applications.

    I complimented you on your choice to pursue the 'academic' path but the truth remains that the most of us don't have millions in a trust fund with which to raise a family while pursuing a programming ideal. My potential right now is to see that my children grow up to have healthy, fun lives, not spend countless hours trying to figure out what new (but unused) programing language I can learn

    If money has no bearing, how do you support your family?

  10. #90
    transcendental analytic kedaman's Avatar
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    thanks for the compliment..well i guess this is more of an ethical issue than anything else because what is profitable is not necessarily good. I feel like there is so many things that could be solved if people weren't so concentrated on self interest. Most programmers do their living by reinventing things, its as if there is deliberately a lack of standards so that people can make money out of doing things over and over again. Others work for free and opensource ideals, and thats how it should be, the coorporate world can't compete with freeware in the end.
    Of course until that happens we have to support ourselves the best we can.. studying here in Finland is good, you get allowance to do it which you can live on, but that money must come from somewhere as all the money must come from somewhere, but its where its going that counts. Theres nothing inherently good in money, its rather bad because it allows people to cheat on others.
    Use
    writing software in C++ is like driving rivets into steel beam with a toothpick.
    writing haskell makes your life easier:
    reverse (p (6*9)) where p x|x==0=""|True=chr (48+z): p y where (y,z)=divMod x 13
    To throw away OOP for low level languages is myopia, to keep OOP is hyperopia. To throw away OOP for a high level language is insight.

  11. #91
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    So once you are finished with your taxpayer supported studies are you going to get a job or what? If you work soley on an open source philosophy you still have the problem of paying for your living expenses. Even the most ardent OpenSource supporters have real jobs that pay them a wage that allows them to pursue their more 'social aware' goals. You are much younger than me (in fact you could be my son technically) so I can't say what the future will hold for you. For me however I can most certainly say that for the time I have left walking this planet, I'm going to have to buy the things I want with money - not barter. No one is going to just build me a house if I give them food from our garden. For most of our civilized existence, that model hasn't worked and as the population grows it moves farther from being viable. Would it be nice? Sure.

    You state, "Theres nothing inherently good in money, its rather bad because it allows people to cheat on others." I would argue that it isn't the money that does that but the character of those who cheat. If you remove money from the equation, those individuals will simply find some other way to 'cheat'. Replace money with cabbage, doesn't matter. If I need cabbage and a dishonest person controls the cabbage, he can cheat me. The cabbage isn't to blame.

  12. #92
    transcendental analytic kedaman's Avatar
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    you can't blame the person either, I am for certain not putting the blame on someone in particular for where we have gotten into. I say bad things come from outside, they may not be in the paper of the money, or in the things we have bought out of them, or what we do with the things we have bought and so on, but they sneak in along the path, and in every judgement you make you will soon lose perspective on what you are suppose to do. What am I suppose to blame if it cannot be seen, it cannot be touched, but it leaves disaster confusion and chaos everywhere and in everything it can occupy, just not so soon you wont notice until you've been infected.

    Maybe after the years you tired old people who have given up on things and talk with that certain pessimistic tone, have you got to teach anything about life?

    How come some people are greedy while others are not? Don't just judge before you know whats wrong.
    Use
    writing software in C++ is like driving rivets into steel beam with a toothpick.
    writing haskell makes your life easier:
    reverse (p (6*9)) where p x|x==0=""|True=chr (48+z): p y where (y,z)=divMod x 13
    To throw away OOP for low level languages is myopia, to keep OOP is hyperopia. To throw away OOP for a high level language is insight.

  13. #93
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    All I can add kedaman is that I do blame the individual because we are all in charge of our own decisions. Some are greedy while others are not is because that is the choice they have made. It's that simple.

    As for your question, "Maybe after the years you tired old people who have given up on things and talk with that certain pessimistic tone, have you got to teach anything about life?"

    First, should I be offended that you consider me old and tired? Do you think your parents are old and tired. Perhaps in Finland being 41 makes you old and tired. I tend to think I am just entering the second half of my life. If you think that makes me old and tired that's OK because I tend to think 24 year olds are primarily young and reckless. As for my tone, I am actually quite optimistic. I am optimistic because I consider myself to be the most wealthy person I know. I am rich beyond my wildest expections. Not monitarily of course, but wealthy in that I get to share my life with a beautiful wife and children. Wealthy because I can help my children grow, help them to learn how to get as much information they need in order to make their own choices in life. I do have something to teach about life, every single person has something he or she can teach about life. The only question is who listens.

    I choose to see your endevors as an interesting approach to life. Not the life I would choose to be part of at this time but thats ok. If you are enjoying it then you are making your own correct choices. Perhaps one day my children will work for free, programming in Haskell (of some derivation of it), maybe they won't. Perhaps one day all 6 billion people will live in harmony. Right now they don't.

    What does this have to do with OOP programming or C++ versus Haskell anyway? I don't know.

  14. #94
    transcendental analytic kedaman's Avatar
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    lol.. maybe we got a bit off topic and.. i apologise, I didn't mean to offend you No it was nothing to do with age, its just how you feel about things, you can feel old and tired at the age of 22, i'm 23 btw not 24.

    One thing though is that 6 million people wont live in harmony unless noone is trying Maybe i don't have all the things you have, maybe i never get that far, but i still have my dreams, and i want to give life to them while i still can. Who listens? thats exactly where everyone asking stops, there doesn't seem to be anyone caring, or maybe they are just too afraid to speak up for themselves.

    I don't blame anyone because i know what and why we have gotten here, people who blame often others forget their own responsibility, if they can't see that we are all in the same boat they wont do anything beyond their shortsighted self interest, of course its their own fault, but you add nothing to them or yourself by blaming them, only you can make this world a better place to live.

    a couple of years ago i was naive to think that i could solve all the world problems by a single united programming language, well i could of course, but ever since I have encountered much more serious problems with our society and aware of the moral decline, and so i had to find the reason.

    well there was none though, there is no value in it at all, not for anyone, and that is the hope I want to bring this world.
    Use
    writing software in C++ is like driving rivets into steel beam with a toothpick.
    writing haskell makes your life easier:
    reverse (p (6*9)) where p x|x==0=""|True=chr (48+z): p y where (y,z)=divMod x 13
    To throw away OOP for low level languages is myopia, to keep OOP is hyperopia. To throw away OOP for a high level language is insight.

  15. #95
    transcendental analytic kedaman's Avatar
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    oh btw, here's some important points on OOP, and i agree especially with the private state one
    http://www.bluetail.com/~joe/vol1/v1_oo.html
    Use
    writing software in C++ is like driving rivets into steel beam with a toothpick.
    writing haskell makes your life easier:
    reverse (p (6*9)) where p x|x==0=""|True=chr (48+z): p y where (y,z)=divMod x 13
    To throw away OOP for low level languages is myopia, to keep OOP is hyperopia. To throw away OOP for a high level language is insight.

  16. #96
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    Sorry for not getting to this sooner.

    What do you mean by that? If you had like 10 different objects to consider, how would you pass a pointer?

    An array...
    The only way that I could think of in which you could deal with 10 heterogenous objects in a homogenous container (i.e. array, vector, list, etc.) is to make that a container of void pointers and then type cast each one specifically to what they should be.

    Sounds pretty dangerous to me...
    "Can't" and "shouldn't" are two totally separate things.

    All questions should be answered. All answers should be true. That is why I post.

  17. #97
    Retired G&G Mod NoteMe's Avatar
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    Now I am not following you here...maybe I missunderstood the question from the beginning......do you meen 10 diffrent objects like in:

    - From diffrent classes
    - Or diffrent objects from the same class?

  18. #98
    transcendental analytic kedaman's Avatar
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    I think he is talking about objects as in java, all classes inherit the Object.. aah the overhead that add up the more you use polymorphism..
    Use
    writing software in C++ is like driving rivets into steel beam with a toothpick.
    writing haskell makes your life easier:
    reverse (p (6*9)) where p x|x==0=""|True=chr (48+z): p y where (y,z)=divMod x 13
    To throw away OOP for low level languages is myopia, to keep OOP is hyperopia. To throw away OOP for a high level language is insight.

  19. #99
    Retired G&G Mod NoteMe's Avatar
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    Why the HELLLLL do you want to make a game in JAVA....Garbage collector up your arse...

  20. #100
    transcendental analytic kedaman's Avatar
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    hahahhaa and here you are coding in VB which is garbage collected
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    writing software in C++ is like driving rivets into steel beam with a toothpick.
    writing haskell makes your life easier:
    reverse (p (6*9)) where p x|x==0=""|True=chr (48+z): p y where (y,z)=divMod x 13
    To throw away OOP for low level languages is myopia, to keep OOP is hyperopia. To throw away OOP for a high level language is insight.

  21. #101
    Retired G&G Mod NoteMe's Avatar
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    C++........c++.......I guess you ment "used to code in VB"...

  22. #102
    transcendental analytic kedaman's Avatar
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    no i meant you (pl) not you (s), what else is this forum for
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    writing software in C++ is like driving rivets into steel beam with a toothpick.
    writing haskell makes your life easier:
    reverse (p (6*9)) where p x|x==0=""|True=chr (48+z): p y where (y,z)=divMod x 13
    To throw away OOP for low level languages is myopia, to keep OOP is hyperopia. To throw away OOP for a high level language is insight.

  23. #103
    Retired G&G Mod NoteMe's Avatar
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    Hehe,...programming games in VB is just for learning the subject......

  24. #104
    transcendental analytic kedaman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by kedaman
    no i meant you (pl) not you (s), what else is this forum for
    no wait thats not what i meant either, i meant indef. pron
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    writing software in C++ is like driving rivets into steel beam with a toothpick.
    writing haskell makes your life easier:
    reverse (p (6*9)) where p x|x==0=""|True=chr (48+z): p y where (y,z)=divMod x 13
    To throw away OOP for low level languages is myopia, to keep OOP is hyperopia. To throw away OOP for a high level language is insight.

  25. #105
    transcendental analytic kedaman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by NoteMe
    Hehe,...programming games in VB is just for learning the subject......
    bad language to start learning in
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    writing software in C++ is like driving rivets into steel beam with a toothpick.
    writing haskell makes your life easier:
    reverse (p (6*9)) where p x|x==0=""|True=chr (48+z): p y where (y,z)=divMod x 13
    To throw away OOP for low level languages is myopia, to keep OOP is hyperopia. To throw away OOP for a high level language is insight.

  26. #106
    Retired G&G Mod NoteMe's Avatar
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    I don't think so....just look at me...

  27. #107
    transcendental analytic kedaman's Avatar
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    i started programming games in gwbasic, it can't get worse
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    writing software in C++ is like driving rivets into steel beam with a toothpick.
    writing haskell makes your life easier:
    reverse (p (6*9)) where p x|x==0=""|True=chr (48+z): p y where (y,z)=divMod x 13
    To throw away OOP for low level languages is myopia, to keep OOP is hyperopia. To throw away OOP for a high level language is insight.

  28. #108
    transcendental analytic kedaman's Avatar
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    btw if you really want to do oop stuff then you are better off so in java or objectiveC or perhaps C# or VB.NET, they're made for it.. but they all produce bloatware
    Use
    writing software in C++ is like driving rivets into steel beam with a toothpick.
    writing haskell makes your life easier:
    reverse (p (6*9)) where p x|x==0=""|True=chr (48+z): p y where (y,z)=divMod x 13
    To throw away OOP for low level languages is myopia, to keep OOP is hyperopia. To throw away OOP for a high level language is insight.

  29. #109
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    Originally posted by kedaman
    i started programming games in gwbasic, it can't get worse

    Hehe...I started in VB3, and I am fine...D:

  30. #110
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    Originally posted by kedaman
    btw if you really want to do oop stuff then you are better off so in java or objectiveC or perhaps C# or VB.NET, they're made for it.. but they all produce bloatware

    But I want to program games...and for that C++ is the only choice..

  31. #111
    transcendental analytic kedaman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by NoteMe
    But I want to program games...and for that C++ is the only choice..
    not really remember, the right tool for the right job
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    writing software in C++ is like driving rivets into steel beam with a toothpick.
    writing haskell makes your life easier:
    reverse (p (6*9)) where p x|x==0=""|True=chr (48+z): p y where (y,z)=divMod x 13
    To throw away OOP for low level languages is myopia, to keep OOP is hyperopia. To throw away OOP for a high level language is insight.

  32. #112
    Retired G&G Mod NoteMe's Avatar
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    Yeah and C++ and inline ASM is the tight tool for games...|

  33. #113

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    Ex-Super Mod'rater Electroman's Avatar
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    IDEs for programming on Consoles use C++ with ASM aswell
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  34. #114
    transcendental analytic kedaman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by NoteMe
    Yeah and C++ and inline ASM is the tight tool for games...|
    thats a way narrowminded generalisation
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    writing software in C++ is like driving rivets into steel beam with a toothpick.
    writing haskell makes your life easier:
    reverse (p (6*9)) where p x|x==0=""|True=chr (48+z): p y where (y,z)=divMod x 13
    To throw away OOP for low level languages is myopia, to keep OOP is hyperopia. To throw away OOP for a high level language is insight.

  35. #115
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    No it is not. Untill reasently most games where written in C. But after they saw the advantage of OOP the last 2-3 years more or less all games have been written in C++.

  36. #116
    transcendental analytic kedaman's Avatar
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    now that just proves my point, stop looking back at what people have done and look forward at what you can do.
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    writing software in C++ is like driving rivets into steel beam with a toothpick.
    writing haskell makes your life easier:
    reverse (p (6*9)) where p x|x==0=""|True=chr (48+z): p y where (y,z)=divMod x 13
    To throw away OOP for low level languages is myopia, to keep OOP is hyperopia. To throw away OOP for a high level language is insight.

  37. #117
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    Now I am not following you here...maybe I missunderstood the question from the beginning......do you meen 10 diffrent objects like in:

    - From diffrent classes
    - Or diffrent objects from the same class?
    10 different objects from 10 different classes
    "Can't" and "shouldn't" are two totally separate things.

    All questions should be answered. All answers should be true. That is why I post.

  38. #118

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    Originally posted by Darkwraith
    10 different objects from 10 different classes
    Would this problem still apply if your using collection classes? That way just pass a pointer to the collection class, the way you say sounds like you'd need to pass 10 pointers still but thats better than 100 .

    Or am I barking up the wrong tree .
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  39. #119
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    Originally posted by NoteMe
    Shut up both of you. OOP is the best thing happend to programming ever...or at least somehing like that...A game loop should never be more then just a few lines. It is a tight loop, and you get more controll of it that way....Both of you suck...
    Im not going to try to add too much but i totally agree with NoteMe. OOP is a double edged sword tohugh, so if used in correctly, you end up making life harder, but if done right, its awesome!
    Good programming site:
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  40. #120
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    I'd say games programming is rather well suited to a (fully) OOP model.

    My current (non-game) project, by contrast has a lower-level procedural layer with the higher level stuff being oo.
    an ending

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