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Thread: about creation and AI

  1. #1
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    hmmmm, i have read 2 straight pages on the post "Evolution for those who care" and i wanted to post my 2 cents worth here since the other post is way too long.

    ok first off i do not beleive in god, and i hope sometime in the near future everyone else will drop religion as i think it gets in the way of science and many other things.

    hmmm where to begin? i dont think we were created by random, we evolved out of who knows what by a long period of time. things evolve because the environment changes around them so they must adapt. im sure from whatever we proceeded from, that animal had to change its life styles to survive, and after a few thousand or maybe million years we evolved finally. i do think it is a slow and gradual process, and mutations dont really effect evolution because when a "mutant" animal mates with a normal animal, the baby still has a chance of being normal, but if wide spread mutation occures, than the whole species can be drastically altered.

    i also think every single person who posted their thoughts about science and everything, is most likely wrong because time and technology will advance to be so great that it will answer so many of our discussions in this forum. there is no such thing as "random", something always happens because of something else. its sort of like that newton theory "for every action there is a equal reaction" or something like that. meaning when something in the universe blows up, such as a star, then it effects the surrounding planets, then those planets effect all the life forms on it and so on, it is a chain reaction.

    i know what im saying sounds weird, its because i really suck at explaining and when i went back to read what i wrote, it didn't come out right so please bare with me.

    i dont understand how people beleive in god. how can a "spirit" just wave his/her/it's hand and create something? that seems like the stupidest thing humans have ever thought up, there has to be chemical reactions, fusion/fission, etc etc to create whole planets and solar systems, not a wave of some non-existing entities hand. i know you guys are saying "how can you prove there is no god?", well obviously i can't, but using my common sense, i think there isn't a god.

    back to the thing about randomness, for something to be TOTALLY random, there has to be NOTHING effecting the outcome of the thing being random. meaning no outside force has meddled with the outcome, which is (in my idea) impossible. but again all of my thoughts (and your guys thoughts) will be proven wrong or correct as time reveals more secrets of our surrounding.

    about AI, i think it is VERY possible to create a totally sentient being. not now, but soon enough (if we dont kill each other off) we will find out how to, i am so sure about this, although i cant prove it. we will indoubtably create a machine NOT greater than us, but can think for itself to some extent. i cant say when this will happen, but im sure if our human race can live another tousand years, we will be doing some unimanginable things. to us it seems almost impossible to create something that will react to its surrounding without any outside input, but then how do we think for ourselves? once we firguer out how our brain actually works, all we will have to do is recreat it to some extent in machine form and it would be able to think for itself. as of right now, an AI is a series of if's and then staements. "IF this happens THEN do this", and the best AI in the world is just a HUGE library of IF and THEN statements, thats all. it just has so many if statements that it can react to many of its normal surroundings, but if it is put into foreign surroundings where there are no IF and THEN statements to be true or false, than this machine will not function as intended, but a true AI will be able to think for itself. I consider current AI to be first generation AI, when a machine will be able to create it own IF and THEN statements without a programmers input, then i would consider that second generation AI.

    also about a "creation" can never be greater then its "creator". i think that is false, but there is some truth to it. a "creation" can not be created greater than the creator but it will have the potential to be greater, if the creator was good enough to create a sentient AI. but a creator CANNOT create something more intellegent then intself on purpose, only by ACCIDENT can it give a future to the creation which would make it smarter than him.

    ok im very tired so ill stop blaberring now. BTW nothing came out as i intended it to, i just cant explain things worth sh*t. all that stuff i said sounds like 1sy grader talk, if you would talk to me in person, i would seem a lot smarter but all that stuff i said is really confusing i know. i just cant explain things really well...

    please dont flame me for anything i have said

  2. #2
    transcendental analytic kedaman's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    i dont understand how people beleive in god. how can a "spirit" just wave his/her/it's hand and create something? that seems like the stupidest thing humans have ever thought up, there has to be chemical reactions, fusion/fission, etc etc to create whole planets and solar systems, not a wave of some non-existing entities hand.
    First: hes not a spirit, there no such things as ghosts and spirits. He didn't wave his hand and we didn't create something. WE didn't create anything. Nothing can be created out of nothing so we can't create, so that's why we can't use the create word. It's like saying 1+2=4 because it's not true inside our universe. Instead we use the create word for making modifications in an original way. That's why we have that word. God created everything that is needed for Bigbangexplosion/whatever that started this universe. God created us in that meaning that every atom in us are his creation, and time is his hand to modify us to what we are (evolution illusion). There's nothing stupid about this theory, because it's zillion times more likely than yours. Not nessesarily logical in that part god is outsider to our universe so he don't need to obey this universe rules, but if we have that part everything makes sense, everything is correct. Nothing is leaved to chance. Your theory is logical, but leaves what science can't proove and the cause of universe existense, unexplained.

    Relgion bullshit can't explain things correctly. How did he create universe?

    Well lets assume there are rules like 1+1=2 in this universe. In another(if) there could be 1+1=3. Outside these/this universe we don't have any rules at all. 1+1=whatever you want. There's also no rules that says that matter can't be created out of nothing. So god created universe by saying things, or whatever, because for him everything is possible for him. This is what I call logical in both inside and outside our universe.

    Also science and technology is built up based on our universe, so it won't explain this. People who come up with theories that are slowly accepted by science, but they're nessesarily not always true, because something is not logical, a part is missing. I have come up with a theory that's not missing any parts. And it's logical after all.

    back to the thing about randomness, for something to be TOTALLY random, there has to be NOTHING effecting the outcome of the thing being random. meaning no outside force has meddled with the outcome, which is (in my idea) impossible. but again all of my thoughts (and your guys thoughts) will be proven wrong or correct as time reveals more secrets of our surrounding.
    Randomness can either be chaotic or an illusion caused by our stupidity. I think we're going to find out this in the future. All theories can be prooved that are not using outside universe logics, so by time we will know almost everything, maybe everything in this universe except it's source. You can't proove my theory. many will try but noone can. The only thing I can do is make this clear for people that this is a logical possibility.

    We can't create AI but we surely can evolve it. IF THEN is not AI, it wont learn anything, it just functions the way it is programmed to. Althought making selfmodifyable IF THEN library will be AI.
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  3. #3
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    Red face

    In science, matter nor energy can be created or destroyed, just changed in form.

  4. #4
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    I am somewhere in the middle between kedaman and hdem2.

    But Riddle me this: Who created God? Did he just will himself to exsist? Not possible. I beileve in God but i am also curious about the scientific point of view. About 4.6 billion years ago, the Earth was created and Life evolved from a single cell from chemical reactions. You need to have the perfect weather conditions to create a cell from non-living matter. Some people say God crated life, others say that he didn't.

    But look at it this way. Way back then, people were to puzzled to think of solutions of how we came to be so they could have (i'm not saying they did) made up a guy and say he created everything.

  5. #5
    transcendental analytic kedaman's Avatar
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    Cool More about God

    SteveCRM, I know that, all should know
    Megatron, If you believe in God, you don't actually need to drag him into our universe, his not a thing, a statue or a man in our meaning. His outside universe, where we cannot know what, but surely he have the ultimate power to do anything he wants, theres no rules out there.

    So there is even no rule about time: nothing needs to be created or destroyed, so in other words we could say that God always have and always will exist, but we can't. We don't know how God's livingroom is like, although the bible have gived us some screenshots but they aren't really reliable. God maybe have "time", but I doub't. It would just disturb him and stress him IF he have time to think about us all, which what I think, he must have. This is kindo highabstract to think about things explaining a connection between a timeless "Gods-hyperspace" and our "time-space" universe, but I think god have some API calls for that. Maybe he subclass or somthing.

    hdem2, I don't like you splitting up this in more threads, people maybe post some not related post or ask things about parts of whole theories, things will mess up this way. Anyway I'll post the links to the two other threads on this topic

    Grey Vbworld
    Evolution for those who care
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    writing software in C++ is like driving rivets into steel beam with a toothpick.
    writing haskell makes your life easier:
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    To throw away OOP for low level languages is myopia, to keep OOP is hyperopia. To throw away OOP for a high level language is insight.

  6. #6
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    In the beginning there was unending nothingness. Whether this lasted for the briefest moment or countless eternities, it is impossible to say because time did not exist.

    If you can't create anything, how do you create something out of this unending nothingness. When was the real beginning? Has the universe always exsisted?

  7. #7
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    The universe has existed since there was time for it to exist it, before the universe there was no space and no time. So the Idea that god cannot exist because he couldn't create himself out of nothing implies that the universe doesn't exist. Personally I don't care wheather god exists or not, I really don't think it matters. It's probably a bit of both.

  8. #8
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    It can't be both. It's one or the other.

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    My main problem with the whole notion of god has already been mentioned. If god created the Universe, who/what created god? The idea of god always existing is just something my mind cant grasp. If god always existed, why cant the universe always have existed?
    I do think that true AI is possible but probably not in our lifetime. True AI will have to learn to react and adapt to situations that its creators never programmed it to react to.
    "People who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do."

  10. #10
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    Wouldn't it be interesing if people ccould program "feelings" into robots. So if you do something bad to them, they'll blast you.

    But since you are the creater of the robot, you would alos be able to deactivate it. Sure it could do math problem and other stuff better than you but you are still the creater of it, thus you know it's every move.

  11. #11
    transcendental analytic kedaman's Avatar
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    Cool More about god again

    Megatron:
    According to my theory Universe began at a point, and will end at a point or will lose its meaning while time seems stretched out to unlimitedness, which is what i think is the same. (if u reacted at this then before posting, answer this: What is time without movement?)

    God is not a part of this universe, his the module in the project. Universe is the form. God is the sub_main. He creates an instance of the form, wait until it runs trough, and then kill it or wait it until it get killed. The form will run in a certain time interval, the module is independent.

    The real beginning ure talking about should be when project is executed, but, that's not applying for my theory. There's no real beginning, because the word "beginning" needs the "time.dll" to run. It will show a "missing dll"-message. Hehehe, hope you got my metaphor.

    Why would God need to be created? He needs that time.dll to be that, then who created that one? Answer is that God is. Or whatever (our language doesn't support the God-hyperspace dimensions).
    Use
    writing software in C++ is like driving rivets into steel beam with a toothpick.
    writing haskell makes your life easier:
    reverse (p (6*9)) where p x|x==0=""|True=chr (48+z): p y where (y,z)=divMod x 13
    To throw away OOP for low level languages is myopia, to keep OOP is hyperopia. To throw away OOP for a high level language is insight.

  12. #12
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    I believe that time travel and altering of time is possible. That's what the 4th dimension is all about. As a ship's velocity approaches the speed of light, the flow of time decreases. If you and me are both born at the same time and I was put at a rocket travelling 250,000Km/s and you were stationary, you would have aged 20 yars in 20 years whereas I might have only aged about 3 years. the speed of light is a univeral speed limit. No partical that has a mass can meet or exceed it, thus light is a constant. If someone were to travel at the speed of light, they would never age. Time will stand still for them. If you exceed the speed of light, time will run backwards. Time flows relative to an observer. You'd not notice anything when you are traveling but to an observer, you ae either miving really slow (a little below the speed of light) or you are stationary (spped of light) or you appear to be doing thing "backwards" (exceed speed of light)

    So what's the big deal with all this time travl stuff? Well this proves that time can be altered and or stopped. This means that time is still there. It will always be there.
    Just sometimes, it flows at different rates. Hence, we do not need a time.dll, because time is like the rectangle around the Form. It's always there.

  13. #13
    Addicted Member Cbomb's Avatar
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    Exclamation Megatron

    Einstein did prove all of what you just said. But now with Quantum Sciences coming about they find that light can only be the speed limit in this dimension.

    An experiment was done where they split a particle and then using mag fields they altered one particle. The other (a copy of the one being changed) was down a tube 5 miles away. And yet displayed the exact changes at the EXACT same time. (Proven by synchronized atomic clocks) This leads ME to belive that the "change" information is moving at some instantaneous speed through a different dimension.

    I find this intriguing. Imagine we can build something that transports matter instantaneously! Vega here we come!
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    It was actually proved a few days ago that the universe isn't going to end, it'll just keep on expanding, but slowing down just enough so it'll "stop" after an infinite period of time (I know this doesn't make sense but you know what I mean)


  15. #15
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    I think that trans-dimensional theories could be the explanation to everyone's question of where our universe came from. Consider this, God is God, but not the only God, he is a sentient being from another, parallel, universe that has created this one to study and interact with. It is quite possible that someone with a seemingly infinite life-span could gain enough knowledge, with help from the others of His species, to affect time and space. If they were able to do this then they could transport the beginnings of enough matter and energy into one single point in our universe. This could create the "Big Bang" effect which has been intriguing our scientists for so long. They would also, theoretically, be able to create the sparks of life. Probably as simple as bacteria, or any type of single-celled organism. This would eventually evolve into some sort of higher life form. And, being able to manipulate time, they could easily have our universe pass by in a wink of an eye, stopping in whenever it suits them, explaining why something major hasn't mappened in the last 2000 years. Also, they would also be able to study our universe with extremely fast computers, considering their time manipulation they could create computers that actually process information an instant before it is given the command, thus explaining the "all-knowing" characteristic.

    Of course, I've just been letting my mind wander with possibilities, so don't attempt to take any of this seriously.
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  16. #16
    Addicted Member Cbomb's Avatar
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    Cool

    Like A calculator that "thinks to you" the the answer. Sounds like Star Trek, H.G. Wells, and Superman all in one
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  17. #17
    transcendental analytic kedaman's Avatar
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    Megatron:
    I didn't mention what time.dll does: It just give universe a possibility to change, not putting a time dimension into it that is constant to everything. Exceeding c does not nessesarily make time go backwards, if you don't do it directly (because thats one real impossible). Warp technology is next to AI, i'd say

    SAM:
    I know exactly what you mean, and it makes sense too. I've just told about that theory, but how the heck did they proove it?

    Zaphod:
    Like in THGTTG, hehehe, except that universe is the experiment, not earth. Remember, 42




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    do you mean the one about the univere coming to a stop, I don't understand exactly what they did, they took loads of measurements from the north pole.

  19. #19
    Hyperactive Member Zaphod64831's Avatar
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    Actually...

    kedaman: Actually, I got the idea from an old Star Trek novel called "The Wounded Sky by Diane Duane."

    It's about the possibility of an infinite number of universes co-existing in a single, larger universe. Sort of like a bunch of REALLY slow-moving bubbles in a soda. In the book a strange, glass-spider-like creature discovers that it can manipulate physics through what it calls "creative physics." A theory where physics aren't fixed, but defined through the people and ideas that limit them. Just as Newton "discovered" gravity and applied some rules to them, thus the limits were set. Until a more precise limit was set later on by more aspiring physicists.

    Anyway, back to the main topic. These "bubble" universes exist in the larger universe. The larger universe is unlike all the rest in the sense that it is the EXACT opposite of a vacuum. It is filled with a material called "de sitter space," a super-condensed matter which is described as follows:

    Imagine a black hole, now compress that black hole to the size of a pinhead, now fill an entire universe with these pinhead-sized black holes, then compress that universe down to the size of a pinhead. Repeat about a googol times.

    In short, this material is so condensed that when they brought a SINGLE particle of it into our universe the planet on which they brought it was sucked into it in exactly ZERO time. Less than an 1/1000 of an instant.

    In the book one of these universes in the de sitter universe bumps ours and begins to open a rift. This rift can only be closed by entering the other universe. When the Enterprise and the glass spider creature enter the other universe they find that it has absolutely no physical limitations, including matter, gravity, and light. But through their new "spirited" selves they discover that there is a single entity in the other universe, that universe's God. The other entity, being alone for who knows how long before, has no sense of self or others and has no idea how to perceive the fact that there is something other than its own mind, which it has yet to discover even exists.

    They end up communicating to it through telepathy, attempting to teach it years of knowledge about the fact that it even exists in just a few moments. They end up teaching it about itself by "inventing" pain, which ends up working as they are able to attack it psychologically. They eventually teach it about the predicament they are in and end up fixing it. But the "God" ends up learning loneliness and asks them what it is to do when they leave, with no one else to talk to for the rest of eternity and the knowledge that there is someone else out there. They teach it about creating life and living through those lives.

    Anyway, my point is, our universe could have been created in this sense. Someone from another universe could have penetrated whatever barrier lies between universes and spawned ours, or created it in some sort of laboratory. Someone with that ability would have no problem with creating "miracles" and such.

    But again, I'm just letting my mind wander.
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  20. #20
    transcendental analytic kedaman's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Zaphod, I surely need to read that book, sounds interesting. Again this definition of universe(s) goes far from standard and I can't find any ways to agree/disagree with you. But one thing I found very hard to agree with:
    In short, this material is so condensed that when they brought a SINGLE particle of it into our universe the planet on which they brought it was sucked into it in exactly ZERO time. Less than an 1/1000 of an instant.
    You just said exactly Zero time! If you stop the clock in a universe, there's no movement out there. I think if you put one single particle of anti-vauum into our universe it would in a second collapse the whole universe, eating up exactly everything making everything go so fastbackwards when every particle speeds up zillion times c. We will end up with GIB GNAB as fast as almost ZERO TIME.
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    To throw away OOP for low level languages is myopia, to keep OOP is hyperopia. To throw away OOP for a high level language is insight.

  21. #21
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    What is an anit-vacuum?

  22. #22
    Hyperactive Member Zaphod64831's Avatar
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    That may be true, but it's still a great book. I had to change a couple of aspects, by the way, because if I hadn't I would have ended up having to write the entire book.

    And Megatron, a vacuum is absolutely nothing in a spot. Anti-vacuum is absolutley everything in one spot. I'm afraid that's the best that I can explain it as, but with a little imagination you should be able to figure it out.
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    Someone mentioned here correctly when they said "We must understand intelligence first before we can make a computer to USE it".

    We cannot even come to an agreement about :

    1. The size of the universe
    2. Who created it
    3. Does God exist?
    4. Do we really see things?
    5. Is there randomness?

    And about another billion things...


    If we cannot even get THOSE explained where we ALL agree then how on earth will we EVER be able to all agree on what intelligence actually is?

    Until we can do that we cannot create AI.

  24. #24
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    Talking

    This is my favorite Gen-X argument so far

    We will never achieve artificial intellegence because a group of amature VB programmers can't answer 5 of the hardest phillosophical questions of all time.

  25. #25
    Addicted Member Cbomb's Avatar
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    Talking Darn

    And I was so sure you guys could pull it off. But really by exchanging beliefs and information back and forth like this, and with a programmer's analitical style of thinking we learn and accept or decline ideas slighty faster. Bringing everyone to the answers to the 'top 5' more quickly.

    [Edited by Cbomb on 04-30-2000 at 05:40 PM]
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    Sam *big sigh*

    I am struggling here not to say "are you that SHORT sighted"

    [Heck, I just did... Oops]

    When I say "WE" I am talking about humanity as a species. The collective of ALL of our best minds.

    And when I say "and about a billion others" I am talking about things like :

    1. We cannot agree if neural nets approximate our brain
    2. Psychology now even REFUTES Freuds concepts of Ego
    3. What goes into our decision to pick chocolate over caramel
    4. What are the factors effecting a decision
    5. Heck! What IS the decision making process.

    We can't even work these things out and yet we are supposed to be able to PROGRAM them into an AI?!?!?

    How about you actually answer one of these questions for once Sam instead of just giving me the "Oh I love this classic Gen-X argument"?

    Answer me JUST this :

    How can we program an Artificial Intelligence to do something we do not understand ourselves?


    I'll give you a chocolate if you can at least answer me this

  27. #27
    Hyperactive Member Zaphod64831's Avatar
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    Wink

    By seeking out a more powerful being, hence the gods in all the religions. By seeking these beings we are attempting to find these answers. The answers provided by the gods of all these religions eventually lead to understanding, and understanding to AI.


    And make sure that chocolate isn't a cordial cherry, I hate those.

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  28. #28
    Hyperactive Member Zaphod64831's Avatar
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    And by the furthering of technology. As we advance in our current understanding of technology we will eventually be able to probe the human mind through a much more organized and definite means.


    Make that a box of chocolates.
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  29. #29
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    i agree with gen-x on this one

    i have always thought this, but gen-x brought it up. an AI cannot be totally independant of it's "creator" or programmer untill the programmer himself totally understands how the noodle in his head works. Gen-x is saying, how can you program a machine to do something that you yourself dont know how it works, such as how to make a decision on your own. a scientist cant program that into a machine if he doesn't understand what your brain is doing along the way to come up with your dicision. thats all, its just a basic concept. can you program anything you wanted in VB? no because you must learn those code words before you can use them right? same thing when you try to create an AI, you must know the "code words" in how to create a dicision before you can complete your program.

  30. #30
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    you might able to do something like this later in the future by taking the software from DNA and converting it to digital information.

  31. #31
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    Wink Exactly

    I agree with Gen-X too, I'm just saying that once we get to a high enough level of technological understanding we will eventually be able to understand our own minds better.
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    and we might be able to program a robot to have "a mind of it's own"

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    Don't insult me just because I wear glasses, ok, you're question
    How can we program an Artificial Intelligence to do something we do not understand ourselves?
    I don't know where you pulled this Idea that we have to program it ourselves, some major advances have been made in AI by using progras written by a process mimicing evolution, although we havn't tcreated an einstein, we have created creatures that can accomplish simple tasks in an intellegent way, simulations of a fox chasing a rabbit, for example, pot a 100th generation fox against a 40th generation rappit the fox will always catch it, and nobody knows how they work, I actually have seen these in action and they do display signs of intellegence.

    I'm not saying that we definatley can create AI, but I don't see your objection as valid, you are dismissing most of my arguments on the grounds that they are mathematical, and that maths is based on itself, wheras you've pulled some ideas out of a hat, nameley

    We must program the machine outselves, this Idea of software "evolution" cannot work

    We can never understand the process of human thought.

    where have these ideas come from?
    If it wasn't for this sentence I wouldn't have a signature at all.

  34. #34
    Guest

    i think differently

    well i dont understand your idea how a machine creates other AI's and not a programmer. well how is a NON sentient machine going to be able to program a SENTIENT machine without having emotions, feeling pain, feeling worried, etc when the machine it self doesn't feel those emotions? it is impossible, some scientist who figuered out how those nuerons and other stuff in your brain works has to create the first sentient being, than MAYBE that first generation of sentient creations can create more complex models of itself. i hope you understand what im saying, basically im saying you got to feel what your making and you just cant put all this math together and hope that your machine feels some emotion. it isn't math that makes us happy or sad, scared or brave, its something else that no one knows quite sure what it is. so once we do, then we can duplicate it in machine form some how.

  35. #35
    Guest

    also...

    we have created creatures that can accomplish simple tasks in an intellegent way
    your talking about some robot that serves you breakfast or something, that machine has no emotion. it was programmed not to run into walls, and how grab things, thats all. i hope you dont think that it will get scared if you pointed a gun at it, that machine has no clue whats going on, it just grabs stuff and puts it down at a programmed location. i am talking about being sentient, not a machine.

  36. #36
    Frenzied Member
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    it's not done like that, I think it's done by programming chips, completly random programs are put into the chips, the best few programs are then combined, a bit like mixing DNA, this gives the next generation, then the best are taken from that and combined, with fast computors and simulators you can do this very fast, if you have an algorythm for measuring success, I think you have to design the framework very well so that the programs can be combined without destroying them.

  37. #37
    Frenzied Member
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    Red face I know you don't believe in God...

    About all this about everything happens for a reason...I know this sounds silly, but maybe everything does happen for a reason. If someone has a Bible handy, they should read the first book, Genesis. That has some interesting things on Creation. Wow, this is one of the deepest posts I've ever read.

  38. #38
    Guest
    if you want deep, check out the post "Evolution (for those who care)". that post has all these kinds of posts times 3.

    also SAM, i understand what you mean, but a computer chip wont make a sentient being. this is what we are talking about when we talk about AI. sentient means you are AWARE of your surroundings without any outside input, such as a computer chip or a programmer. all animals, humans, dogs, birds, elephants are sentient to some extent. meaning they fear for their lives, and they know right from wrong, to some extent. when you do all that complex algorithym, its just programming and the machine doesn't feel any emotion. we are discussing how to create the ultimate AI, which thinks on its own without chips.

  39. #39
    Frenzied Member
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    Sorry, I've missed something here, why aren't we allowed chips, how can you have any sort of computer without chips, without coung back to calculators the size of wardrobes.


    If we continue to evolve thes machines to accomplish more complex tasks they will become self awar, just like animals did, it's a natrual step in evolution, wheather we can know if our machins are self aware or wheather they just seem like it is a very interesting question

  40. #40
    Guest
    you guys should really check out the post "Evolution (for those who care)" post. there are some really mind bogeling theories out there. this is the stuff that really interests me, when you talk about time traveling and the universe. not in the kid way though, like in star trek and junk, i think all those shows are bull. but that thread is very intresting, not kiddy theories, so check it out. thanks for all your posts guys, i like talking about this stuff

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