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Is RND biased?
The application is flawless. Because, you know... I don't make mistakes.
OK, I do.
But in this case I can find none.
So the application is basically a random number generator.
And to "win" the game takes about 33 years (ish).
I'm good with that part.
The problem is that every time I run it, the negatives out-pace the positives by a lot.
Even though negatives have the exact same probability as the positives.
I don't get it.
I mean I'd chalk it up to random chance if it wasn't like every single time.
Then again, how do you test something in the short-term that takes 33 YEARS to come to fruition????
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Re: I can't figure it out.
For example:
So why does my stuff get taken *way* more often (over the short term)?
Every time I end up in negative numbers no matter what.
Code:
Sub Choose
dim nRnd as long
nRnd =rolldie(2) ' Returns 1 or 2.
select case nrnd
case 1
takestuffawayfromme
case 2
givemestuff
end select
end sub
Sub GiveMeStuff
Stuff=Stuff+1
end sub
sub TakeMyStuff
stuff=stuff-1
end sub
Public Function RollDie(ParamArray Die()) As Long
Dim nTotal As Long
' Returns Sum of all Die Rolled.
nTotal = 0
For n = LBound(Die) To UBound(Die)
rDieRollCount = rDieRollCount + 1
nValue = Int(Rnd * Die(n)) + 1
nTotal = nTotal + nValue
Next n
RollDie = nTotal
End Function
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Re: I can't figure it out.
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Re: I can't figure it out.
All that it means is that the random number generator has a bias. Personally, I've never trusted a random number generator for a range that small. I don't have any particular reason to feel that way, but I do. For that reason, if I want a 50/50 split, I generate a random number up to 100 (depending on the details of the generator). You may also want a better random number generator. In .NET, at least, there is the normal random number generator, but there is also a library with a cryptographically secure random number generator. Presumably, it is "more random", and if that one is "more random", then the normal one is "less random", and less random is not random.
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Re: I can't figure it out.
Something I tend to do if I need to pick between two numbers is to use the current time's millisecond. If it is even use one number and if it is odd then use another.
Take a look at this example:
Code:
Imports System
Public Module Module1
Public Sub Main()
Dim game = New Container()
Do
Instructions()
game.RollDie()
Console.WriteLine("Amount: {0}", game)
Loop
End Sub
Private Sub Instructions()
Console.WriteLine("Press {enter} to roll the die.")
Console.ReadLine()
Console.WriteLine()
End Sub
End Module
Public Class Container
Private _amount As Integer
Public Sub New()
_amount = 0
End Sub
Public Sub New(initialAmount As Integer)
_amount = initialAmount
End Sub
Public Overrides Function ToString() As String
Return _amount.ToString()
End Function
Public Sub RollDie()
Dim currentTimeMillisecond = DateTimeOffset.UtcNow.Millisecond
Dim remainder = currentTimeMillisecond Mod 2
_amount += If(remainder.Equals(0), 1, -1)
End Sub
End Class
Now the only bias is time, i.e. when the user hits the enter key.
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Re: I can't figure it out.
The obvious answer is that nowhere in this code is the random number generator initialized, so this code will always produce the exact same series of random 1's and 2's each and every time it is ran. Assuming that you are running it for the same number of iterations each time, the end result will always be the same. That is why the result is "always negative". It could just as easily have been "always positive", but the point is it will always be "always the same".
The solution is to simply add a "Randomize" statement in Form_Load (assuming this is VB6 code), and then you will see varying results.
Also, as written that code won't work at all, since at one point you seem to be calling a Sub of "takestuffawayfromme", but the actual name of the Sub is "TakeMyStuff".
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Re: I can't figure it out.
The random number generator is "initialized" mulitiple times in the code. At program start-up and then again "randomly" during the program run.
E.g. sometimes during a timer event - Randomize Timer.
It's initialized properly.
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Re: I can't figure it out.
Also too, the "code" above is air-code. The actual code is written properly. There are multiple places that give points and multiple places that take points. Every instance has an equal probability of any other instance.
E.g. if there are two places that give points under a certain circumstance then there are two places that can take points away with the same probability of the ones that give points.
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Re: I can't figure it out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shaggy Hiker
Taxes.
I knew it!
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Re: I can't figure it out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cafeenman
Also too, the "code" above is air-code. The actual code is written properly. There are multiple places that give points and multiple places that take points. Every instance has an equal probability of any other instance.
E.g. if there are two places that give points under a certain circumstance then there are two places that can take points away with the same probability of the ones that give points.
Well, if you want feedback on code, then post the actual code. You might be confident that the actual code is written properly, but that doesn't mean it is.
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Re: I can't figure it out.
OK, it's simple.
The code is thousands of lines and nobody here is going to go through it all and figure it out.
Again, if you can get a point you have the exact same chance to lose a point. And the points are random too. They are color-tiered.
White=1
Green=2
Blue=3
...
Diamond=24
Every time you get or lose points it rolls for how many as well as rolling for a Whiff and rolling for a critical.
They all go to the same sub whether it's plus or minus points. That sub doesn't care. The only thing it does is put a minus in front of points if it's negative but it does all the exact same rolls as anything else.
Honestly, I think I'm just being impatient. I think it just needs to run for at least 10% of it's total run-time to even out. That would be 3.3 years in this case. (really).
Also too, I'm not really asking for an answer to my specific code. I'm certain it's not the code. If you can't find an error in the below then you won't find an error in my code because it's the same thing but moreso.
Code:
Sub ChooseRandomEvent
dim nRnd as long
Randomize Timer
Select Case RollDie(44)
Case 1
TakePoints Brains
Case 2
TakePoints Brawn
......
Case 43
GivePoints Brawn
Case 44
GivePoints Brains
End Select
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Re: I can't figure it out.
These are the declarations for the color tiers (that have no bearing on the randomness)
Code:
Public Const COLOR_TIER_MODIFIER_DIE_SIDES As Long = 5000
Public Enum COLOR_TIER_ID
idx_ColorTierID_White = 1
idx_ColorTierID_Green = 2
idx_ColorTierID_Blue = 3
idx_ColorTierID_Purple = 4
idx_ColorTierID_Gold = 5
idx_ColorTierID_Platinum = 6
idx_ColorTierID_Ruby = 7
idx_ColorTierID_Diamond = 8
End Enum
Public Const MIN_COLOR_TIER_ID As Long = idx_ColorTierID_White
Public Const MAX_COLOR_TIER_ID As Long = idx_ColorTierID_Diamond
Private Const rWhiteChance As Double = 1
Private Const rGreenChance As Double = 0.25
Private Const rBlueChance As Double = 0.1
Private Const rPurpleChance As Double = 0.025
Private Const rGoldChance As Double = 0.01
Private Const rPlatinumChance As Double = 0.001
Private Const rRubyChance As Double = 0.00025
Private Const rDiamondChance As Double = 1 / COLOR_TIER_MODIFIER_DIE_SIDES
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Re: I can't figure it out.
And this won't make a whole lot of sense because I'm not posting all the calls. But this is where it all happens.
Even though the sub allows for explicitly assigning a color-tier, I never actually do that in the app. Every time points are given or taken it rolls for a random color tier.
Code:
Public Sub AddAttributePoints(ByRef AttributeID As PLAYER_ATTRIBUTES, ByRef BuffOrDebuff As BUFF_OR_DAMAGE, Optional ByRef ColorTierID As COLOR_TIER_ID = MIN_COLOR_TIER_ID - 1)
Dim m_CallStacker As New cCallStacker
Dim rAttributeMultiplier As Double
Dim rActualPointsAdded As Double
Dim rAttributeValuePreChange As Double
Dim nAttributeValuePreChange As Long
Dim rModifiedPoints As Double
Dim rRawPoints As Double
m_CallStacker.Add NAME & ".AddAttributePoints(Public Sub)"
If Not ValidAttributeID(AttributeID) Then Exit Sub ' First weed out invalid anything.
If ReachedCap(AttributeID, BuffOrDebuff) Then Exit Sub '
If ColorTierID > MAX_COLOR_TIER_ID Then Exit Sub '
If Whiffed(BuffOrDebuff) Then Exit Sub
rAttributeValuePreChange = rCurrentAttributePoints(AttributeID) ' Save the current value of the Attribute for comparison later.
nAttributeValuePreChange = PlayerAttributePoints(AttributeID)
If ColorTierID < MIN_COLOR_TIER_ID Then ColorTierID = RollForColorTierID ' This will happen if the caller doesn't pass a ColorTierID.
rRawPoints = PointsByColorTierID(ColorTierID) ' Get the actual points to award.
If BuffOrDebuff = idx_Buff Then
PositiveColorTierInstances(ColorTierID) = PositiveColorTierInstances(ColorTierID) + 1
PositiveColorTierInstancesPerAttribute(AttributeID, ColorTierID) = PositiveColorTierInstancesPerAttribute(AttributeID, ColorTierID) + 1
Else
NegativeColorTierInstances(ColorTierID) = NegativeColorTierInstances(ColorTierID) + 1
NegativeColorTierInstancesPerAttribute(AttributeID, ColorTierID) = NegativeColorTierInstancesPerAttribute(AttributeID, ColorTierID) + 1
End If
If Critical(BuffOrDebuff) Then ' Roll for Critical.
rRawPoints = rRawPoints * CRITICAL_MODIFIER
If BuffOrDebuff = idx_Buff Then
PositiveCriticalInstancePerAttribute(AttributeID, ColorTierID) = PositiveCriticalInstancePerAttribute(AttributeID, ColorTierID) + 1
Else
NegativeCriticalInstancePerAttribute(AttributeID, ColorTierID) = NegativeCriticalInstancePerAttribute(AttributeID, ColorTierID) + 1
End If
RaiseCriticalEvent AttributeID, BuffOrDebuff, ColorTierID
Else
If BuffOrDebuff = idx_Buff Then
RaiseEvent FoundTreasure(ColorTierID)
Else
RaiseEvent FellInTrap(ColorTierID)
End If
End If
rAttributeMultiplier = TotalMultiplier(AttributeID) ' Get Multipliers.
'If rAttributeMultiplier <> 1 Then Stop
If BuffOrDebuff = idx_Damage Then
rRawPoints = -rRawPoints
rAttributeMultiplier = 1 / rAttributeMultiplier ' Use inverse Multiplier for Damage. For Player Luck of 1+ this reduces damage. Player Luck < 1 increase damage.
End If
rModifiedPoints = rRawPoints * rAttributeMultiplier ' Apply Multipliers.
If (rModifiedPoints + rCurrentAttributePoints(AttributeID) >= rAttributePointCap(AttributeID)) Then
rCurrentAttributePoints(AttributeID) = rAttributePointCap(AttributeID)
ElseIf (rModifiedPoints + rCurrentAttributePoints(AttributeID) <= -rAttributePointCap(AttributeID)) Then
rCurrentAttributePoints(AttributeID) = -rAttributePointCap(AttributeID)
Else
rCurrentAttributePoints(AttributeID) = rCurrentAttributePoints(AttributeID) + rModifiedPoints
End If
AddPlayerMessage vbCrLf & "(" & AttributeAbbreviation(AttributeID) & "): rAttributeMultiplier = " & Format$(rAttributeMultiplier, "0.000") & "; rRawPoints = " & rRawPoints & "; rModifiedPoints = " & Format$(rModifiedPoints, "0.000") & vbCrLf, 0, True
rActualPointsAdded = rCurrentAttributePoints(AttributeID) - rAttributeValuePreChange
UpdateAttributeTotals AttributeID, CLng(rRawPoints), rActualPointsAdded
If PlayerAttributePoints(AttributeID) - nAttributeValuePreChange <> 0 Then
RaiseEvent AttributeChange(AttributeID, PlayerAttributePoints(AttributeID) - nAttributeValuePreChange, ColorTierID)
End If
If AttributeID = idx_Player_Attribute_Advancements Then CheckLevelUp
If BuffOrDebuff = idx_Buff Then
AddReputation 1
Else
AddReputation -1
End If
End Sub
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Re: I can't figure it out.
Modifiers.
Also too, if you're paying attention you can see that in one place I'm specifying the Energy multiplier and then when it gets implemented I'm ignoring that and doing something completely different.
That's just because I'm still playing with numbers to get the balance right but it doesn't affect the randomness of anything.
Code:
Public Property Get AttributeMultiplier(ByRef AttributeID As PLAYER_ATTRIBUTES) As Double
Dim m_CallStacker As New cCallStacker
m_CallStacker.Add NAME & ".AttributeMultiplier(Public Property Get); AttributeID = " & AttributeID
AttributeMultiplier = 1
If ModifiersDisabled Then Exit Property
If AttributeID = idx_Player_Attribute_Energy Then
AttributeMultiplier = 1 + (rCurrentAttributePoints(AttributeID) / rAttributePointCap(AttributeID) * (MAX_ATTRIBUTE_MULTIPLIER / 7))
Else
AttributeMultiplier = 1 + (rCurrentAttributePoints(AttributeID) / rAttributePointCap(AttributeID) * MAX_ATTRIBUTE_MULTIPLIER)
End If
End Property
Public Function TotalMultiplier(ByRef AttributeID As PLAYER_ATTRIBUTES) As Double
Dim m_CallStacker As New cCallStacker
Dim rAttributeMultiplier As Double
Dim rBaseModifier As Double
m_CallStacker.Add NAME & ".TotalMultiplier(Public Function)"
TotalMultiplier = 1
If ModifiersDisabled Then Exit Function
rBaseModifier = PlayerSkillModifier * BonusModifier * AttributeMultiplier(idx_Player_Attribute_Energy)
Select Case AttributeID
Case idx_Player_Attribute_Energy
rAttributeMultiplier = 1 + (0.2 * (PartyMemberCount / nMaxPartyMembers))
Case idx_Player_Attribute_Advancements
rAttributeMultiplier = AttributeMultiplier(idx_Player_Attribute_Braintrust)
Case idx_Player_Attribute_Braintrust
rAttributeMultiplier = AttributeMultiplier(idx_Player_Attribute_Readiness)
Case idx_Player_Attribute_Readiness
rAttributeMultiplier = AttributeMultiplier(idx_Player_Attribute_IntestinalFortitude)
Case idx_Player_Attribute_IntestinalFortitude
rAttributeMultiplier = AttributeMultiplier(idx_Player_Attribute_Cheer) * BabyBonus
Case idx_Player_Attribute_Cheer, idx_Accumulated_Game_Stat_McGuffinsProduced
rAttributeMultiplier = AttributeMultiplier(idx_Player_Attribute_Karma)
Case idx_Player_Attribute_Karma
rAttributeMultiplier = AttributeMultiplier(idx_Player_Attribute_Advancements)
Case idx_ShieldBurstID
rAttributeMultiplier = AttributeMultiplier(idx_Player_Attribute_Readiness)
Case Else
rAttributeMultiplier = 1
End Select
If rAttributeMultiplier = 0 Then Stop
TotalMultiplier = rBaseModifier * rAttributeMultiplier
End Function
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Re: I can't figure it out.
Again, no bearing on the randomness but this is how the points are calculated:
Code:
Public Function PointsByColorTierID(ByRef ColorTierID As COLOR_TIER_ID) As Long
Dim m_CallStacker As New cCallStacker
m_CallStacker.Add NAME & ".PointsByColorTierID(Public Function)"
' 2 ^ (ColorTierID / 1.75) Returns:
'
' idx_White = 1
' idx_green = 2
' idx_blue = 3
' idx_purple = 5
' idx_gold = 7
' idx_platinum = 11
' idx_ruby = 16
' idx_diamond = 24
PointsByColorTierID = 2 ^ (ColorTierID / 1.75)
End Function
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Re: I can't figure it out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cafeenman
OK, it's simple.
The code is thousands of lines and nobody here is going to go through it all and figure it out.
Again, if you can get a point you have the exact same chance to lose a point. And the points are random too. They are color-tiered.
White=1
Green=2
Blue=3
...
Diamond=24
Every time you get or lose points it rolls for how many as well as rolling for a Whiff and rolling for a critical.
They all go to the same sub whether it's plus or minus points. That sub doesn't care. The only thing it does is put a minus in front of points if it's negative but it does all the exact same rolls as anything else.
Honestly, I think I'm just being impatient. I think it just needs to run for at least 10% of it's total run-time to even out. That would be 3.3 years in this case. (really).
Also too, I'm not really asking for an answer to my specific code. I'm certain it's not the code. If you can't find an error in the below then you won't find an error in my code because it's the same thing but moreso.
Code:
Sub ChooseRandomEvent
dim nRnd as long
Randomize Timer
Select Case RollDie(44)
Case 1
TakePoints Brains
Case 2
TakePoints Brawn
......
Case 43
GivePoints Brawn
Case 44
GivePoints Brains
End Select
You should call Randomize only once in your application and not reinitialize it with every call
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Re: I can't figure it out.
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Re: I can't figure it out.
What do the screenshots add to your question?
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Re: I can't figure it out.
Forgot to quote what I was replying to here:
"You should call Randomize only once in your application and not reinitialize it with every call "
-------------------------------------
Thank you. I wasn't sure about that. I can change that but the app was doing the same thing before I added more randomize calls which is why I added them.
For example, I have a Die-Roll thing in there. It's how many times to roll for a Yahtzee, Large Straight, Small Straight, Full house, etc.
What was happening was I had the randomize statement at the top of the RollDie sub and it was giving me yahtzees way more often than it should have. I mean like 10% when it should be something like 0.08%.
I think what was happening is that it was getting called faster than the timer so that rolls had a high chance of being the same because the RNG was the same if that makes any sense.
So I took it out. Then this morning I put it back but at the bottom instead of the top which is basically the same thing if my hunch is right so that needs to go no matter what.
Again, I'm not a patient person. I think it's me that's the problem and not the app or the RNG.
But I will take out the extra randomize statements.
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Re: I can't figure it out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arnoutdv
What do the screenshots add to your question?
Look at the numbers. Very Bad Luck = 1.05 modifier so the numbers should be going up.
The way it works is that if you get negative numbers it's 1/modifier so bad numbers are less bad. Positive numbers are more good.
So all else being equal the numbers should creep up no matter what.
That's why.
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Re: I can't figure it out.
The issue with Randomize is that it seeds the generator with a new seed. That starts the generated sequence over. If you re-seed with the same seed, then you get the same sequence each time. So, what's the seed for Randomize? Generally, it's the system time. The risk with having more than one Randomize in your code is that you can't be sure that two won't be called within the resolution of the system time, in which case the two would produce the exact same sequence. Having only one call to Randomize solves that.
Random is not perfect. You may be asking too much of it.
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Re: I can't figure it out.
I mean it's what I've got. I tried rolling my own one time and it was a dismal failure.
And if you look at the numbers in the screen shot, then over five hours it's pretty even for the most part.
What's actually happening is that the negatives tend to get colors (other than white) while the positives tend to get only white. So while the instances are the same, the numbers are not. The negative numbers tend to be bigger.
Even if this code isn't right then it's the same for both positive and negatives so it should even out.
This is that code:
Code:
Public Function RollForColorTierID() As COLOR_TIER_ID
Dim m_CallStacker As New cCallStacker
Dim nRnd As Long
Dim n As Long
m_CallStacker.Add NAME & ".RollForColorTierID(Public Function)"
nRnd = RollDie(COLOR_TIER_MODIFIER_DIE_SIDES) ' Determine base amount of points.
For n = MAX_COLOR_TIER_ID To MIN_COLOR_TIER_ID Step -1
If nRnd >= (1 - ColorTierChance(n)) * COLOR_TIER_MODIFIER_DIE_SIDES Then
RollForColorTierID = n
Exit Function
End If
Next n
RollForColorTierID = MIN_COLOR_TIER_ID
End Function
Public Property Get ColorTierChance(ByRef ColorTierID As COLOR_TIER_ID) As Double
Dim m_CallStacker As New cCallStacker
m_CallStacker.Add NAME & ".ColorTierChance(Public Property Get)"
Select Case ColorTierID
Case idx_ColorTierID_Diamond
ColorTierChance = rDiamondChance
Case idx_ColorTierID_Ruby
ColorTierChance = rRubyChance
Case idx_ColorTierID_Platinum
ColorTierChance = rPlatinumChance
Case idx_ColorTierID_Gold
ColorTierChance = rGoldChance
Case idx_ColorTierID_Purple
ColorTierChance = rPurpleChance
Case idx_ColorTierID_Blue
ColorTierChance = rBlueChance
Case idx_ColorTierID_Green
ColorTierChance = rGreenChance
Case idx_ColorTierID_White
ColorTierChance = rWhiteChance
End Select
End Property
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Re: I can't figure it out.
By the way, I kind of forgot to mention that this isn't really a game. It's going to be one when it grows up (maybe). Right now it's just a self-playing scoring-engine. It takes no user input at all. There are built-in ways to game the game but when I'm testing I don't do that because I want to see what it does. It's basically a timer that sets off random events.
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Re: I can't figure it out.
Also too, the run in the screenshot is still going. I'll post another screenshot after some time passes so you can see what's going on.
And I think a 1.05 multiplier might be too much. This run started with 0 stats for everything. But I can start with other numbers. The Rule Set allows a total of 40% per attribute total points that can be distributed and up to 80% in any given attribute.
When I do that it hits a point where it starts to snowball in the positive direction which I expect due to the positive multipliers.
The choices for multipliers right now are 1.05, 1.025, 0 (no multipliers at all), 0.975 and 0.95 (you're gonna lose no matter what except you aren't because winning doesn't depend on attributes at all - they're just misdirection).
To win you just need to fill the siloes with 111,111,000 McGuffins. That's how I came up with the 33 years number. I let it run for a week and did the math (McGuffins per Hour). It was a whole lot of hours.
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Re: I can't figure it out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cafeenman
OK, it's simple.
The code is thousands of lines and nobody here is going to go through it all and figure it out.
Again, if you can get a point you have the exact same chance to lose a point. And the points are random too. They are color-tiered.
White=1
Green=2
Blue=3
...
Diamond=24
Every time you get or lose points it rolls for how many as well as rolling for a Whiff and rolling for a critical.
They all go to the same sub whether it's plus or minus points. That sub doesn't care. The only thing it does is put a minus in front of points if it's negative but it does all the exact same rolls as anything else.
Honestly, I think I'm just being impatient. I think it just needs to run for at least 10% of it's total run-time to even out. That would be 3.3 years in this case. (really).
Also too, I'm not really asking for an answer to my specific code. I'm certain it's not the code. If you can't find an error in the below then you won't find an error in my code because it's the same thing but moreso.
Code:
Sub ChooseRandomEvent
dim nRnd as long
Randomize Timer
Select Case RollDie(44)
Case 1
TakePoints Brains
Case 2
TakePoints Brawn
......
Case 43
GivePoints Brawn
Case 44
GivePoints Brains
End Select
It has nothing to do with allowing for x% of your total iterations to run. If the code is as you describe, and if the result is always negative, the absolutely logical conclusion is that your code is faulty. Period.
Maybe you should refine your thousands of lines of code down to just the simple logic you reference above of "generate a random number and add and subtract based on the outcome with equal likelihood of either" and see if the problem persists, and then start adding your other code back until you find the inevitable error(s) in your code.
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Re: I can't figure it out.
OK, here you go. You tell me:
Every single Random## has an exact equal and opposite. Every single time in every part of the code if points can be awarded then there is an equal counterpart. Every. Single. Time. I've been extremely careful about that.
The first ones and last ones directly reference a specific attribute.
Thus Random01 takes points from Advancement.
The last Random gives points to Advancement.
When I ran out of attributes, the rest of the subs in the middle don't do anything at all with points (mostly). If they do give points then it's a coin-flip in that sub.
And I already did what you said. I had written the whole thing willy-nilly with not regard for evenness because I didn't think I was even going to do this. Once I decided to go in the direction I'm going in now I took all of that out so that no points were given or taken anywhere.
It was then that I created the sub below and ensured it was absolutely even. Even the wait times for each counterpart sub are the same so that one can't get hit more often than another.
Code:
Private Sub Branch(Optional ByRef RandomID As Long = 0)
Dim m_CallStacker As New cCallStacker
Dim m_Hourglass As New cHourglass
Dim nRnd As Long
Static fBranching As Boolean
Static nCount As Long
' Chooses a Random Event.
m_CallStacker.Add NAME & ".Branch(Private Sub)"
If chkBeginProduction.Value = vbUnchecked Then StopAllTimers
If fBranching Or fStoryTelling Or Not Possessed Then Exit Sub
fBranching = True
m_Hourglass
Randomize Timer
nCount = nCount + 1
If (nCount = 1) Or (nCount Mod 100 = 0) Then
AddPlayerMessage vbCrLf & "Selecting a Random Event. Each Event has one d" & NUM_RANDOM_CHOICES & " (" & Format(100 * (1 / NUM_RANDOM_CHOICES), "#0.00") & "%) Probability of Occurring. Random Events can Trigger More Random Events.", 2000
nCount = 1
End If
If (RandomID > 0) And (RandomID <= NUM_RANDOM_CHOICES) Then
nRnd = RandomID
Else
nRnd = RollDie(NUM_RANDOM_CHOICES)
RandomBranchCount(nRnd) = RandomBranchCount(nRnd) + 1
End If
Select Case nRnd
Case 1
Random01
Case 2
Random02
Case 3
Random03
Case 4
Random04
Case 5
Random05
Case 6
Random06
Case 7
Random07
Case 8
Random08
Case 9
Random09
Case 10
Random10
Case 11
Random11
Case 12
Random12
Case 13
Random13
Case 14
Random14
Case 15
Random15
Case 16
Random16
Case 17
Random17
Case 18
Random18
Case 19
Random19
Case 20
Random20
Case 21
Random21
Case 22
Random22
Case 23
Random23
Case 24
Random24
Case 25
Random25
Case 26
Random26
Case 27
Random27
Case 29
Random29
Case 30
Random30
Case 31
Random31
Case 32
Random32
Case 33
Random33
Case 34
Random34
Case 35
Random35
Case 36
Random36
Case 37
Random37
Case 38
Random38
Case 39
Random39
Case 40
Random40
Case 41
Random41
Case 42
Random42
Case NUM_RANDOM_CHOICES - 1
RandomMaxRandomChoicesMinus1
Case NUM_RANDOM_CHOICES
RandomMaxRandomChoices
End Select
fBranching = False
End Sub
Private Function Random01() As Long
Dim m_CallStacker As New cCallStacker
Static nTickcount As Long
m_CallStacker.Add NAME & ".Random01(Private Function)"
If EventElapsedSeconds(nTickcount) < 60 Then Exit Function
AddPlayerMessage AddAsterisks("You failed to complete a critically important task!"), 1000
mw_Player.AddAttributePoints idx_Player_Attribute_Advancements, idx_Damage
nTickcount = GetTickCount
End Function
.....
Private Sub RandomMaxRandomChoices()
Dim m_CallStacker As New cCallStacker
Static nTickcount As Long
m_CallStacker.Add NAME & ".RandomMaxRandomChoices(Private Sub)"
If EventElapsedSeconds(nTickcount) < 60 Then Exit Sub
AddPlayerMessage AddAsterisks("You successfully completed an important task!"), 1000
mw_Player.AddAttributePoints idx_Player_Attribute_Advancements, idx_Buff
nTickcount = GetTickCount
End Sub
-
Re: I can't figure it out.
There's not nearly enough context there to try to concretely suggest where your code might be unbalanced.
One thing you might explain is what this is doing:
Code:
If (RandomID > 0) And (RandomID <= NUM_RANDOM_CHOICES) Then
nRnd = RandomID
Else
nRnd = RollDie(NUM_RANDOM_CHOICES)
RandomBranchCount(nRnd) = RandomBranchCount(nRnd) + 1
End If
At first glance you seem to be saying "Sometimes roll an n sided die for a random result, but sometimes don't". And it might be the case that the "sometimes don't" logic is the source of your problems.
-
Re: I can't figure it out.
It allows me to go straight to one of the subs by selecting it from a combobox that won't be present in the app. So if I change something or add something then I don't have to wait for it to randomly happen.
That's not part of the problem because if I do that then I'm not testing the app for balance. I'm just checking that a sub is working properly. It can't call itself so it doesn't affect anything.
I don't know how much more context you need. That sub is the only place that calls anything that adds or subtracts points. And all the subs it calls that add or subtract points work exactly as the two example I've shown with the exception of the coin-flip subs which I can also post but there's not a lot of ways they can be wrong. I can post an example of that if it helps but it won't.
-
Re: I can't figure it out.
To clarify above post. Yes, I can unbalance the app on purpose by calling specific subs that give or take points. But when if I do that then I don't care about the points because I know I took it out of balance and the results are invalid.
In the current run I haven't touched that. It's just doing it's own thing.
-
Re: I can't figure it out.
Now that I think of it, there is one particular instance I'm not sure about. I think it's right but something about it feels off.
It works like this.
You have a coin flip to do a thing.
If you choose not to do it you lose a point.
If you choose to do it you gain a point.
Even so far, right?
But...
If you choose not to do it you're done.
If you choose to do it then there's another coin flip if you're successful or not.
If you succeed you get a point.
If you fail you lose a point.
Seems like it's still even.
So you have a 50/50 shot of doing the thing.
and if you choose to do it you have a 50/50 shot of being successful.
Thus if you choose to do it you get a point and then have a 50% shot of getting another point.
-
Re: I can't figure it out.
Code for above:
Code:
Private Sub McGuffinRescue()
Dim m_CallStacker As New cCallStacker
Static nRescueChoice(1 To 2) As Long
Static nMcGuffinRescue(1 To 2) As Long
Static f As Boolean
Static nTickcount As Long
Dim Prompt As String
Dim s(1) As String
Dim nMax As Long
Dim nLostMcGuffOps As Long
m_CallStacker.Add NAME & ".McGuffinRescue(Private Sub)"
If f Or (EventElapsedSeconds(nTickcount) < 180) Then Exit Sub
nMax = IIf(McGuffin.Count - MIN_MCGUFFINS_TO_ALLOW_TRANSFER > CurrentAbductedMcGuffins, CurrentAbductedMcGuffins, McGuffin.Count - MIN_MCGUFFINS_TO_ALLOW_TRANSFER)
nMax = RollDie(nMax)
If nMax < 4 Then Exit Sub
f = True
With mw_Player
nLostMcGuffOps = nMax * (1 / .AttributeMultiplier(idx_Player_Attribute_IntestinalFortitude)) * (1 / .PlayerSkillModifier)
Prompt = AddAsterisks("For the love of God, Commandant " & .PlayerName & ", You Must Make a Decision!")
End With
s(0) = "Launch McGuffOps Mission to Rescue " & nMax & " Abducted McGuffins. No Price is Too High to Pay!" & vbCrLf & vbTab & "(Risk the loss of " & nLostMcGuffOps & " McGuffins to save " & nMax & " McGuffins." & vbCrLf
s(1) = "Don't be a Fool, Man! You'll Get them All Killed! Call Them Back! Call Them All Back!!"
MakeChoice Prompt, s
Select Case RollDie(d2)
Case 1
nRescueChoice(1) = nRescueChoice(1) + 1
AddPlayerMessage vbCrLf & vbTab & ">> 2) Don't be a Fool, Man! You'll Get them All Killed! Call Them Back! Call Them All Back!!", 1000
AddPlayerMessage vbCrLf & vbTab & "You command your McGuffOps Team to stand down leaving the abducted McGuffins in the hands of the enemy.", 1000
mw_Player.AddAttributePoints idx_Player_Attribute_IntestinalFortitude, idx_Damage
ShowChoiceCount "nRescueChoice", nRescueChoice
f = False
nTickcount = GetTickCount
Exit Sub
Case 2
nRescueChoice(2) = nRescueChoice(2) + 1
AddPlayerMessage vbCrLf & vbTab & ">> 1) Launch McGuffOps Mission to rescue " & nMax & " abducted McGuffins. No price is too much to pay for our people!", 1000
mw_Player.AddAttributePoints idx_Player_Attribute_IntestinalFortitude, idx_Buff
End Select
ShowChoiceCount "nRescueChoice", nRescueChoice
AddPlayerMessage vbCrLf & vbTab & "You assign the McGuffOp Commander the task of selecting " & nLostMcGuffOps & " McGuffOperatives for this high-risk mission.", 1000
Select Case RollDie(d2)
Case 1
nMcGuffinRescue(1) = nMcGuffinRescue(1) + 1
AddPlayerMessage vbCrLf & vbTab & "Your Rescue Mission Failed! You Lost " & nLostMcGuffOps & " McGuffOperatives, you idiot!", 2000
McGuffin.Add -CDbl(nLostMcGuffOps)
TotalMcGuffinsAbducted = TotalMcGuffinsAbducted + nLostMcGuffOps
CurrentAbductedMcGuffins = CurrentAbductedMcGuffins + nLostMcGuffOps
FailedMcGuffinRescues = FailedMcGuffinRescues + 1
McGuffinsLostInRescueAttempts = McGuffinsLostInRescueAttempts + nLostMcGuffOps
mw_Player.AddAttributePoints idx_Player_Attribute_Cheer, idx_Damage
Case 2
nMcGuffinRescue(2) = nMcGuffinRescue(2) + 1
AddPlayerMessage vbCrLf & vbTab & "Your McGuffOps Team rescued " & nMax & " abducted McGuffins.", 2000
McGuffin.Add CDbl(nMax)
RescuedMcGuffins = RescuedMcGuffins + nMax
CurrentAbductedMcGuffins = CurrentAbductedMcGuffins - nMax
SuccessfulMcGuffinRescues = SuccessfulMcGuffinRescues + 1
mw_Player.AddAttributePoints idx_Player_Attribute_Cheer, idx_Buff
End Select
ShowChoiceCount "nMcGuffinRescue", nMcGuffinRescue
ShowMcGuffinStats
nTickcount = GetTickCount
f = False
End Sub
-
Re: I can't figure it out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shaggy Hiker
The issue with Randomize is that it seeds the generator with a new seed. That starts the generated sequence over. If you re-seed with the same seed, then you get the same sequence each time. So, what's the seed for Randomize? Generally, it's the system time. The risk with having more than one Randomize in your code is that you can't be sure that two won't be called within the resolution of the system time, in which case the two would produce the exact same sequence. Having only one call to Randomize solves that.
Random is not perfect. You may be asking too much of it.
Calling it again and again, even with a different seed, is just not correct.
You only need to initialize the randomizer once in your application.
-
Re: I can't figure it out.
It doesn't matter. I read the vb documentation - I actually bought it in a box that came with three thick books that I've read multiple times. This app isn't a standard app doing standard things in a standard order. Everything about it is random so if it re-seeds it's still doing it at random times and it's not going to regenerate the exact same numbers for the exact same things no matter what.
In cases like this you can reseed as often as you want. Just because everyone tells you that there is a "proper" way to do a thing doesn't mean you have to jump on that bandwagon and parrot that thing over and over again.
-
Re: I can't figure it out.
Also too, I showed you all the code that matters. I keep being told my code must be wrong and even though I've shown the code multiple times, all I'm getting is vague platitudes about how I must be wrong but nobody - not a single person can show me any place my code is wrong.
I've posted it all. So maybe actually stop asking me for more and look at what I've posted and show me where I'm wrong. Hint: It's NOT how I initialize the rng.
-
Re: I can't figure it out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dday9
Something I tend to do if I need to pick between two numbers is to use the current time's millisecond. If it is even use one number and if it is odd then use another.
Take a look at this example:
Code:
Imports System
Public Module Module1
Public Sub Main()
Dim game = New Container()
Do
Instructions()
game.RollDie()
Console.WriteLine("Amount: {0}", game)
Loop
End Sub
Private Sub Instructions()
Console.WriteLine("Press {enter} to roll the die.")
Console.ReadLine()
Console.WriteLine()
End Sub
End Module
Public Class Container
Private _amount As Integer
Public Sub New()
_amount = 0
End Sub
Public Sub New(initialAmount As Integer)
_amount = initialAmount
End Sub
Public Overrides Function ToString() As String
Return _amount.ToString()
End Function
Public Sub RollDie()
Dim currentTimeMillisecond = DateTimeOffset.UtcNow.Millisecond
Dim remainder = currentTimeMillisecond Mod 2
_amount += If(remainder.Equals(0), 1, -1)
End Sub
End Class
Now the only bias is time, i.e. when the user hits the enter key.
That's awesome for yes/no, true/false, on/off.
What's your solution when there's more than two answers?
-
Re: I can't figure it out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cafeenman
It doesn't matter. I read the vb documentation - I actually bought it in a box that came with three thick books that I've read multiple times. This app isn't a standard app doing standard things in a standard order. Everything about it is random so if it re-seeds it's still doing it at random times and it's not going to regenerate the exact same numbers for the exact same things no matter what.
In cases like this you can reseed as often as you want. Just because everyone tells you that there is a "proper" way to do a thing doesn't mean you have to jump on that bandwagon and parrot that thing over and over again.
No, that’s not true.
You complained about a not normal distribution of values. So try my advice
-
Re: I can't figure it out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cafeenman
Also too, I showed you all the code that matters. I keep being told my code must be wrong and even though I've shown the code multiple times, all I'm getting is vague platitudes about how I must be wrong but nobody - not a single person can show me any place my code is wrong.
I've posted it all. So maybe actually stop asking me for more and look at what I've posted and show me where I'm wrong. Hint: It's NOT how I initialize the rng.
No, you haven't shown all the code that matters. Not even close. Post _ALL_ the code and maybe we can find it.
And you are 100% correct that it isn't how you initialize the RNG. Somewhere you have unbalanced outcomes.
Either that or you have done a poor job of explaining your situation.
My understanding is you have some sort of starting numeric value. You are then generating random outcomes where you can either increment or decrement that value. Your explanation seems to indicate that the EV of these outcomes is 0, that is, there is an equal chance of having +x applied as there is -x, for all potential values of x. And yet, in every trial run of this simulation, your numeric value becomes negative.
Is that correct?
-
Re: I can't figure it out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cafeenman
In cases like this you can reseed as often as you want. Just because everyone tells you that there is a "proper" way to do a thing doesn't mean you have to jump on that bandwagon and parrot that thing over and over again.
Yes, you CAN, but no you should NOT. There is nothing that will prevent you from re-seeding, but what I wrote earlier still stands: Every call to Randomize has a seed, which is normally based off the system time. If you can be CERTAIN that you won't be calling Randomize twice with the same seed, then it does no harm to call it multiple times. However, it also does you no good. You don't end up with a "more random" number by calling Randomize a second time. Also, the second number in one sequence is not more random than the first numbers from two different sequences. So, you CAN call Randomize multiple times, but it does you no good and is quite likely to do you significant harm. Therefore, just don't do it.
One thing to note is that .NET got rid of Randomize, so this whole question largely goes away, though there's something like it because you can create multiple Random objects, each of which is a different random number generator with it's own seed.
-
Re: I can't figure it out.
Please use better titles to your posts.
-
Re: I can't figure it out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OptionBase1
No, you haven't shown all the code that matters. Not even close. Post _ALL_ the code and maybe we can find it.
Yes, I have.
I have shown what gets called. I've show how the scoring works. There are two things I haven't shown which is the Branch sub being called so I'll throw that in here.
It won't help anything because it's not doing anything but being a timer that calls Branch without specifying what to do.
And I didn't show all the duplicate subs that do the exact same thing as what I did post because it's redundant.
Unfortunately, I had to kill the run I showed the screenshot of because I paused it so many times to make changes that I was afraid my PC would randomly reboot (doesn't happen a lot but happening at all wouldn't make me happy) and I wanted to save my changes.
Again, I think the problem is I'm impatient. If I let it run a week it will probably be almost 100% even.
So the problem is me, not the code. But to determine anything I have to let it run long enough to have valid results.
In any case I showed all the code that matters. Here's some more.
Posses starts the timer and Exorcise turns it off. If you look at the screenshot there's a radio button (just one) where the user can turn it on but can't turn it off. But the user doesn't need to do anything because it will turn itself on.
Interval on the timer is 1000 ms so it calls Branch every five seconds. Branch has a flag that if it's already doing something it skips out when called.
Code:
Private Sub tmrGame_Timer()
Dim m_CallStacker As New cCallStacker
Static nCounter As Long
m_CallStacker.Add NAME & ".tmrGame_Timer(Private Sub)"
UpdateGameTime
nCounter = nCounter + 1
If nCounter = 5 Then
Branch
nCounter = 0
End If
Select Case RollDie(120)
Case Is <= 20
Possess ' Ensure that Possessed doesn't stay turned off if it's randomly turned off.
Case 120
Exorcise
End Select
End Sub
-
Re: I can't figure it out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
yereverluvinuncleber
Please use better titles to your posts.
ok. I'll do better.
-
Re: I can't figure it out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OptionBase1
Post _ALL_ the code and maybe we can find it.
I'm on the verge of something huge that I plan to market - photorealistic sound. I'm not giving that away.
-
Re: I can't figure it out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cafeenman
I'm on the verge of something huge that I plan to market - photorealistic sound. I'm not giving that away.
What is the ratio of McGuffins to Hertz? Is it the same as the ratio of leprechauns to unicorns?
-
Re: Is RND biased?
OK, this may give away the game, but you have to calculate hertz/pounds for the torque collector then divide that by the screen aspect ratio which is modified by the wing-loading.
It's basic math but putting it together right takes a lot or r & d.
-
Re: Is RND biased?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cafeenman
OK, this may give away the game, but you have to calculate hertz/pounds for the torque collector then divide that by the screen aspect ratio which is modified by the wing-loading.
You can do that all you want, but it ain't gonna fly. You gotta go metric to make it work - and it's hertz/km you need for the torque collector, other wise you're just spinning your wheels.
-tg
-
Re: Is RND biased?
As I said, I'm on the verge of something really big that will turn all conventional thought upside down. I left out the real ingredient - the mean hydrodynamic chord.
Now I've just destroyed my entire future by giving away the secret.
I hope my cats forgive me. :(
-
Re: Is RND biased?
Being serious for a minute, this is an example of a sub that I believe is totally even that differs slightly from the others. This is one of those coin-flip subs I mentioned earlier (the nonsense discussion above reminded me of the discoencabulator).
Code:
Private Sub ReturnToHomeBase()
Dim m_CallStacker As New cCallStacker
Static nReturnToBase(1 To 3) As Long
Dim nRnd As Long
m_CallStacker.Add NAME & ".ReturnToHomeBase(Private Sub)"
AddPlayerMessage AddAsterisks("You return to Home Base to rest for 8 Hours.")
nRnd = RollDie(d3)
nReturnToBase(nRnd) = nReturnToBase(nRnd) + 1
Select Case nRnd
Case 1
AddPlayerMessage AddAsterisks("You decoupled the turboencabulator right in front of your whole family at dinner."), 2000
mw_Player.AddAttributePoints idx_Player_Attribute_Energy, idx_Damage
Case 2
AddPlayerMessage AddAsterisks("You correctly coupled the retroencabulator in front of your whole family at dinner!"), 2000
mw_Player.AddAttributePoints idx_Player_Attribute_Energy, idx_Buff
Case 3
AddPlayerMessage AddAsterisks("You accidentally activated the discoencabulator in front of your whole family at dinner!"), 2000
AddPlayerMessage vbCrLf & vbTab & "Your whole family danced together and had the time of their lives.", 1000
mw_Player.AddAttributePoints RandomAttributeID, idx_Buff
AddPlayerMessage vbCrLf & vbTab & "... until Grandma broke her hip.", 2000
mw_Player.AddAttributePoints RandomAttributeID, idx_Damage
End Select
ShowChoiceCount "nReturnToBase", nReturnToBase
End Sub
-
Re: Is RND biased?
Code:
' Declarations
Public Enum PLAYER_ATTRIBUTES
idx_Player_Attribute_Braintrust = 0 ' B - Braintrust (Formerly Tech Savvy)
idx_Player_Attribute_Readiness ' R - Readiness (Formerly Situational Awareness)
idx_Player_Attribute_IntestinalFortitude ' I - Intestinal Fortitude
idx_Player_Attribute_Cheer ' C - Cheer (Formerly Joy Sparks)
idx_Player_Attribute_Karma ' K - Karma (Formerly Fate)
idx_Player_Attribute_Energy ' E - Energy (Formerly Health Points)
idx_Player_Attribute_Advancements ' A - Advancements (Formerly Tech Points)
End Enum
Public Const MIN_PLAYER_ATTRIBUTE As Long = idx_Player_Attribute_Braintrust
Public Const MAX_PLAYER_ATTRIBUTE As Long = idx_Player_Attribute_Advancements
Public Function RandomAttributeID() As PLAYER_ATTRIBUTES
Dim m_CallStacker As New cCallStacker
m_CallStacker.Add NAME & ".RandomAttributeID(Public Function)"
RandomAttributeID = RollDie(MAX_PLAYER_ATTRIBUTE + 1) - 1
End Function
-
Re: Is RND biased?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cafeenman
As I said, I'm on the verge of something really big that will turn all conventional thought upside down.
Doing that would turn some people right side up.
-
Re: Is RND biased?
You mentioned in one of your posts in one of your thread that would like to resume a session from a fixed starting point the Rnd value list.
I created a small sample which is capable of doing this:
Code in a module:
Code:
Option Explicit
Private m_lCalls As Long
Private m_lSeed As Long
Public Sub RNDInit(ByVal lSeed As Long)
m_lCalls = 0
m_lSeed = lSeed
If m_lSeed = 0 Then m_lSeed = 100 * Timer
Rnd -1
Randomize Abs(m_lSeed)
End Sub
' generates a random value between min and max
Public Function RNDVal(ByVal lMin As Long, ByVal lMax As Long, Optional ByVal lIteration As Long = -1) As Long
Dim i As Long
If lIteration <> -1 Then
RNDInit m_lSeed
For i = 1 To lIteration - 1: Rnd: Next
m_lCalls = lIteration - 1
End If
RNDVal = Int((lMax - lMin + 1) * Rnd + lMin)
m_lCalls = m_lCalls + 1
End Function
To test in a Form with 2 command buttons:
Code:
Option Explicit
Private Sub Form_Load()
RNDInit 12345
End Sub
Private Sub Command1_Click()
Debug.Print RNDVal(0, 255)
End Sub
Private Sub Command2_Click()
Debug.Print "Item 4", RNDVal(0, 255, 4)
End Sub
-
Re: Is RND biased?
Current state of the game. I have a new monitor (old one got a lot of burn-in and was drawing a ton of amps) so have to reboot. I wanted a screenshot before I ended the app.
Numbers are pretty good regarding distribution. I think they're all within spec of being equally, randomly selected.
But the Reputation bar is skewed way positive. It's the Green line right below the stats. It should stay dead center as it is simply a count of Instances, not points.
It has a max of 1000 a min of 0 and it starts at 500.
So one good thing adds one Rep. One bad thing takes away one Rep. It's at-a-glance if the instances are evenly distributed or not.
https://www.vbforums.com/images/ieimages/2024/06/10.jpg
-
Re: Is RND biased?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arnoutdv
You mentioned in one of your posts in one of your thread that would like to resume a session from a fixed starting point the Rnd value list.
I created a small sample which is capable of doing this:
Code in a module:
Code:
Option Explicit
Private m_lCalls As Long
Private m_lSeed As Long
Public Sub RNDInit(ByVal lSeed As Long)
m_lCalls = 0
m_lSeed = lSeed
If m_lSeed = 0 Then m_lSeed = 100 * Timer
Rnd -1
Randomize Abs(m_lSeed)
End Sub
' generates a random value between min and max
Public Function RNDVal(ByVal lMin As Long, ByVal lMax As Long, Optional ByVal lIteration As Long = -1) As Long
Dim i As Long
If lIteration <> -1 Then
RNDInit m_lSeed
For i = 1 To lIteration - 1: Rnd: Next
m_lCalls = lIteration - 1
End If
RNDVal = Int((lMax - lMin + 1) * Rnd + lMin)
m_lCalls = m_lCalls + 1
End Function
To test in a Form with 2 command buttons:
Code:
Option Explicit
Private Sub Form_Load()
RNDInit 12345
End Sub
Private Sub Command1_Click()
Debug.Print RNDVal(0, 255)
End Sub
Private Sub Command2_Click()
Debug.Print "Item 4", RNDVal(0, 255, 4)
End Sub
OK, so I think I misunderstood what you're telling me and I apologize for that.
For your thing to work I would need to save every time I used rnd, right?
I don't think I said that I wanted to save that state of the game (random-wise) though. I don't want to do that. I would like to be able to save the game stats and reload that and the rnd would just get reinitialized.
