Hong Kong, Portland and the Moral Low Ground

I really don't agree with China's recent actions in Hong Kong. Any government that bans and supresses protest reveals itself as weak and lacking in credibility. None of us stand above criticism.

...But...

Given current events in Portland, the US has abrogated any moral high ground that it could have used to criticise. At this point there are literally groups of unidentifiable men roaming the streets in unmarked vehicles snatching people off the streets. These people are not being charged with any offense, no protocols are being followed (no Miranda rights, no identification of the offence being committed, no attempt by the agent to identify themselves). They are then being released without charge because, of course, there are no charges to answer. This is not to do with law enforcement, it is pure intimidation by a government of it's own citizens.

And, just to be clear, it's not a case of putting down violent protest or criminality, it's any random person off the street. Seriously, watch the footage of Christopher David (who's a frickin' End of Level Boss btw). He approaches them entirely peacefully, isn't engaged in anything that could be considered criminal in any way and is beaten with clubs and pepper sprayed.

This is being done in opposition to the elected State government. And Trump is openly stating that he is going to continue this practice across the rest of the nation.


I do not like the way the Chinese Government has behaved in recent years. I think there is much to criticize, up to and including the Ethnic Cleansing of the Uigher people. But how can the West challenge and criticise the Chinese Government when this is their own practice?

I can tell you the truth (or the information I know), but only if you need to collect some information yourself. Otherwise, the dialogue between us will not proceed.

You need to collect the following basic information:
(1) What is Article 23 of the Hong Kong Basic Law?
(2) Hong Kong's nationality law.
(3) The composition of Hong Kong legislature and Hong Kong judges.
(4) Who is the director of Hong Kong TV Station
(5) How much tax does Hong Kong pay to the Chinese government each year, and how much tax Shanghai pays to the Chinese government each year
(6) The current situation of Hong Kong education
(7) How are the freedoms and human rights of Hong Kong people suppressed?
(8) The similarities and differences between the Hong Kong protests and the current US protests
(9) How is the Hong Kong University Student Union different from other universities in the world?

The following points are related to the Hong Kong issue:

(10) What national security laws are enacted by the United States
(11) In what respects does the United States adopt double standards?
(12) Is the complete monopoly of the Western media’s "right to speak" really a good thing
(13) How much information the Western people obtain from the media is true and how much is false.
(14) How much information about China obtained by the Western people from the media is true and how much is false.
(15) How many people in the West can judge the authenticity of media information.
(16) Why did American politics become what it is now?
(17) Why has the United States not resolved the issue of racial discrimination after 400 years?
(18) Is the human rights situation in the United States really good? Compared with China, in what ways is the human rights situation in the United States better?
(19) Is the United States really the country of the American people?

(20) Do you understand China's ethnic minority policies?
(21) How much of the information you know about China do you think is true? What is the proportion of real information?
(22) Why did I say such strange words "I have much more knowledge than Shaggy" ?

If you don't have the time or interest to understand the above questions, so that we can't talk to each other, that' no matter. When you have time, you could pay attention to some of the above questions (especially the first, eighth and 22nd).

Edit:
In addition, my verbal attacks on some people here are entirely due to the Hong Kong issue (not because of COVID-19). The Hong Kong issue has shown me the hypocrisy and double standards of Western media and Western politicians.

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the dialogue between us will not proceed

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Fine by me. I won't be doing your research for you.

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Originally Posted by FunkyDexter

Fine by me. I won't be doing your research for you.

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You are not searching for information for me, I know all the information above. You are collecting information for yourself.

OK, I'll rephrase. I won't be making you're argument for you.

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Originally Posted by FunkyDexter

OK, I'll rephrase. I won't be making you're argument for you.

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No, I have never been interested and have no time to debate, I just provide some information or questions for you to think when I occasionally have time. I think this is a way for me to give back (thank) to this forum.

If one day, you find that 99% of the information you know about china is false, then don't be surprised, because there are billions of people are in a similar situation to you. This happens not only outside China, but also to Chinese people. For example, many highly educated people in China have studied and used traditional Chinese medicine for decades, and finally found that 99% of them are pseudoscience.

Lol this troll just keeps coming back... If you're representing China, all you're doing is showing us how ignorant the average Chinese is and that they're not open to discourse: they believe whatever they're fed and anyone with a differing opinion will be ignored.

You'll need to actually talk to people here if you want to change anyones opinion of China, as all you're doing right now is making China look bad.

When you don't show your hand, you have the advantage of saying that you anticipated any eventuality. Nobody else believes that position, though, at least once they pass the age of about 12, because by that point they have all seen that people who say that they have all the answers are generally less well informed than the average person. The claim of having all the answers is just a pose to cover up uncertainty and doubt. By saying you know everything, but sharing none of it, your opinions are sheltered from information that would contradict and undermine the opinion. It allows a person to maintain a veneer of confidence where none exists beneath the surface.

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Originally Posted by kfcSmitty

Lol this troll just keeps coming back... If you're representing China, all you're doing is showing us how ignorant the average Chinese is and that they're not open to discourse: they believe whatever they're fed and anyone with a differing opinion will be ignored.

You'll need to actually talk to people here if you want to change anyones opinion of China, as all you're doing right now is making China look bad.

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You seem to be showing your ignorance all the time, and I don't see any good qualities in you. From you, I can understand why the United States has such a bad government and why the most powerful (and greatest) country in the world is in a sharp decline.

If you want to talk to others, then you must at least collect some knowledge related to the topic being discussed (for example, some of the knowledge points I listed in #post2). Otherwise, how do you come to talk to others.

In addition, are you willing to discuss with dozens of Chinese people in Chinese at the same time?

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Originally Posted by kfcSmitty

as all you're doing right now is making China look bad.

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You and the US government are making America look worse and worse.

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Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker

When you don't show your hand, you have the advantage of saying that you anticipated any eventuality. Nobody else believes that position, though, at least once they pass the age of about 12, because by that point they have all seen that people who say that they have all the answers are generally less well informed than the average person. The claim of having all the answers is just a pose to cover up uncertainty and doubt. By saying you know everything, but sharing none of it, your opinions are sheltered from information that would contradict and undermine the opinion. It allows a person to maintain a veneer of confidence where none exists beneath the surface.

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Can't you understand what I said in #Post2? Although those questions are for FunkyDexter, I also welcome you to participate in the discussion. The premise is that you can collect and learn some information related to the topic of discussion.

In fact, I have already said that I do not participate in any debate. I just provide some information on some issues for you think and reference. You should understand that in this world, there will not be anyone like me who keeps providing information (about china) that you don't know.

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I just provide some information on some issues for your consideration (reference)

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No you don't, you make unsupported assertions.

Not really the point of the thread though. The thread was a criticism of the current state of the US. The criticism of China is a given.

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Originally Posted by FunkyDexter

No you don't, you make unsupported assertions.

Not really the point of the thread though. The thread was a criticism of the current state of the US. The criticism of China is a given.

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(1) What is Article 23 of the Hong Kong Basic Law?

I won't be doing your research for you. If you want to make an argument, make it.

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Originally Posted by FunkyDexter

I won't be doing your research for you. If you want to make an argument, make it.

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No, I don't.

In fact, all my bad emotions are due to the Hong Kong problem last year. The hypocrisy and double standards of Western media and Western politicians have made me extremely disgusted with Western media and Western politicians. (Before this, I had never had this kind of emotion)

I have a lot to say about the falseness of information and double standards, maybe I can write a book. But now is the time for intense conflict between the United States and China, so I want to wait until the conflict is over before I speak my thoughts.

In addition, please ignore my comments, others please continue to discuss #post1. (If necessary, please delete all my comments in this thread.)

I have told a few jokes about China in other threads:
(1) China is the most open country in the world
(2) China is the country with the richest medical resources in the world (this is due to the deception and over-treatment of traditional Chinese medicine)

Let me tell another joke. The human rights situation in China is better than that in the United States. Specifically, the human rights situation in China is comparable to that of the United Kingdom and Canada, but better than that of the United States and Australia, but weaker than that of France, Germany, and Japan. More importantly, the human rights situation in China has been continuously improving.

Next time, I'll tell some other jokes about China.

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Originally Posted by dreammanor

You seem to be showing your ignorance all the time, and I don't see any good qualities in you. From you, I can understand why the United States has such a bad government and why the most powerful (and greatest) country in the world is in a sharp decline.

If you want to talk to others, then you must at least collect some knowledge related to the topic being discussed (for example, some of the knowledge points I listed in #post2). Otherwise, how do you come to talk to others.

In addition, are you willing to discuss with dozens of Chinese people in Chinese at the same time?



You and the US government are making America look worse and worse.

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I'm Canadian, so try again. Also, I haven't shown any indication of my knowledge on any of the situations you've brought up -- I'm happy to just read what others have said and form my own conclusions. What I have done, is brought up the same point everyone else brings up about you: you do not support your arguments with any form of fact; literally nothing you have said has swayed me in any way on any topic because you have no substance.

You are certainly hard to understand.

You feel that you have the answers to the points posed. Your answers will be filtered through your experiences, just as ours are filtered through our experiences. If western media has hypocrisy, is that because it doesn't speak with one voice? Western media is on all sides of every issue, it just depends on which one you want to listen to on any one issue. There are those on the right, the center right, the center left, the left, and out on the fringes of both of those. There are also western media outlets that are explicitly and intentionally false (the ones that talk about Elvis and bigoot having a baby, for example). So, it's all there, and all freely available. One of the issues in US society today is that any political group has media that meets its expectations, so there is no need for anybody to be exposed to any ideas that they don't already agree with.

And yet you still talk of western media as if it were monolithic. Are you sure that isn't because there is a filter on what you see? If you see it all, then you wouldn't make statements as patently false as that, and yet you do.

Therefore, answer your own questions. If you feel you have all the answers, share a few with us.

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Originally Posted by kfcSmitty

I'm Canadian, so try again.

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This does not affect my opinion at all. Although Canada is my favorite western country. But in most cases, we think that Canada and the United States are one country, at least on the political level (because many Chinese believe that Canada does not have its own political independence).

In my eyes, you are a person without any knowledge and cultivation. I know you treat me the same way.

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Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker

If you feel you have all the answers, share a few with us.

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I certainly have many answers (my own views and opinions). I have made it very clear that I want to wait until the conflict between the United States and China is over before I can talk about my views. In this regard, there are too many things to talk about, involving many aspects, and they come from the knowledge I have accumulated for decades.

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Originally Posted by dreammanor

This does not affect my opinion at all. Although Canada is my favorite western country. But in most cases, we think that Canada and the United States are one country, at least on the political level (because many Chinese believe that Canada does not have its own political independence).

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China doesn't have the best track record realising what countries are tied to each other or not. And the fact that you think they're the same shows how ignorant you are of North America.

Canada is nowhere near as polarised as the US is when it comes to politics, and the current US government has done a ton to sully the relationship between Canada and the US.

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Originally Posted by dreammanor

I certainly have many answers (my own views and opinions). I have made it very clear that I want to wait until the conflict between the United States and China is over before I can talk about my views. In this regard, there are too many things to talk about, involving many aspects, and they come from the knowledge I have accumulated for decades.

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So you want to wait until everything has been decided to say where you stand? What cowardice. You've given new meaning to "Hindsight is 20/20"

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Originally Posted by kfcSmitty

China doesn't have the best track record realising what countries are tied to each other or not. And the fact that you think they're the same shows how ignorant you are of North America.

Canada is nowhere near as polarised as the US is when it comes to politics, and the current US government has done a ton to sully the relationship between Canada and the US.

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I certainly know that Canada is not as polarized as the United States. What I mean is that Canada lacks political independence, and many times it has to succumb to pressure from the United States. Many times, we regard Canada as a state of the United States. Is not it?

But I am very optimistic about Canada's development potential. I once joked with a friend that the most powerful countries in the world in the next 100 years will be the United States and China, but a hundred years later, the most powerful countries may be Canada and India.

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Originally Posted by dreammanor

I certainly know that Canada is not as polarized as the United States. What I mean is that Canada lacks political independence, and many times it has to succumb to pressure from the United States. Many times, we regard Canada as a state of the United States.

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That is the most generic statement I have ever read. China has succumbed to pressure from the United States, the EU has succumbed to pressure from the United States... they are a super power and have a lot of control. Do you consider every country in the world that is less powerful than the US a state of the US?

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Originally Posted by kfcSmitty

So you want to wait until everything has been decided to say where you stand? What cowardice. You've given new meaning to "Hindsight is 20/20"

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In fact, some of my views have been expressed euphemistically and implicitly in some threads. Maybe you are wearing sunglasses, maybe my English is not good, and you don't know anything about my opinion. This is why I think you are a person without knowledge.

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Originally Posted by kfcSmitty

That is the most generic statement I have ever read. China has succumbed to pressure from the United States, the EU has succumbed to pressure from the United States... they are a super power and have a lot of control. Do you consider every country in the world that is less powerful than the US a state of the US?

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No, China sometimes makes some concessions in diplomacy and economy, just to show a flexible posture. China has never succumbed to the pressure of any country on the big principle and big direction.

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Originally Posted by dreammanor

I certainly have many answers (my own views and opinions). I have made it very clear that I want to wait until the conflict between the United States and China is over before I can talk about my views. In this regard, there are too many things to talk about, involving many aspects, and they come from the knowledge I have accumulated for decades.

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See you in the next life, then.

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Originally Posted by dreammanor

No, China sometimes makes some concessions in diplomacy and economy, just to show a flexible posture. China has never succumbed to the pressure of any country on the big principle and big direction.

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Neither has Canada, for that matter. We have the longest unsecured border in the world, yet the countries remain impressively distinct.

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Originally Posted by dreammanor

No, China sometimes makes some concessions in diplomacy and economy, just to show a flexible posture. China has never succumbed to the pressure of any country on the big principle and big direction.

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Making concessions is the same as succumbing to pressures. If China didn't succumb to pressure, it wouldn't feel the need to compromise at all.

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Originally Posted by dreammanor

In fact, some of my views have been expressed euphemistically and implicitly in some threads. Maybe you are wearing sunglasses, maybe my English is not good, and you don't know anything about my opinion. This is why I think you are a person without knowledge.

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No, you've posted links and shown you're proud of China, but anytime someone challenges you on your point to actually get some substance from your post, you blow them off.

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Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker

Neither has Canada, for that matter. We have the longest unsecured border in the world, yet the countries remain impressively distinct.

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I don't think the two countries are completely different. In the huge shadow, one is often merged with the other, or completely hidden by the other.

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Originally Posted by kfcSmitty

Making concessions is the same as succumbing to pressures. If China didn't succumb to pressure, it wouldn't feel the need to compromise at all.

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No country or group of countries can make China yield.

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Originally Posted by kfcSmitty

No, you've posted links and shown you're proud of China, but anytime someone challenges you on your point to actually get some substance from your post, you blow them off.

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Maybe Snowden and Assange can answer all your questions.

You are like a baby and need someone to feed food into your mouth. Are you clear about the questions I listed in #Post2?

Please note that "Uncle Roger" is a character portrayed by Malaysian comedian based in the UK. This is comedy, not meant as an insulting parody but I can imagine Chinese people disliking his comedy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53me-ICi_f8

We used to have a lot of comedians of different ethnic backgrounds doing this sort of thing. Now it tends to trigger people.

Example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yBZV9HwdOU

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Originally Posted by dreammanor

No country or group of countries can make China yield.

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You're brainwashed.

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Originally Posted by dreammanor

You are like a baby and need someone to feed food into your mouth. Are you clear about the questions I listed in #Post2?

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I know it all; far more than you do and me talking to you is like a God talking to a baby.

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Originally Posted by dilettante

We used to have a lot of comedians of different ethnic backgrounds doing this sort of thing. Now it tends to trigger people.

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That's the best kind of comedy.

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Originally Posted by kfcSmitty

You're brainwashed.



I know it all; far more than you do and me talking to you is like a God talking to a baby.

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You seem to have become another me. It's ok.

If you know all, then you should talk to FunkyDexter about your views on #Post1, I want to listen to the teachings of God.

Edit:
If you know all the questions in #Post2, I can predict that your comments will be very exciting. Let's start.

Well I want to talk about the posted question.

As far as Hong Kong goes, I'm not surprised by the crackdowns, as FD said it's a given. That's how an authoritarian government always ends up responding. Actually, I was surprised at how long the government let the protest continue. I thought for a while that maybe there had been some human rights progress in China.

Now the situation in Portland and Seattle has me baffled. Both those cities were having protests going on long before the Floyd incident. But it intensified since. Now there is this cycle of peaceful protests during the day and then vandalism at night. I can understand the police not taking a hard line on the vandalism for the first few days after the Floyd death, but it's way past time start arresting people who are committing crimes. I don't care if you want to protest 24/7, go for it. But if you want to vandalize property then you need to be arrested.

I'm certainly against these federal officers showing up unannounced and unidentified. Then they start to violate peoples civil rights. But what baffles me is why aren't the local law enforcement agencies do their jobs and protecting public/private property. Can you imagine if you owned a business in this area. I would expect it to be protected.

So, what should happen if the local law enforcement wont provide protection and wont arrest people who are committing crimes. I'm pretty old and I've never seen this happen.

In Portland's case I don't have a problem with using Federal officers if the local/state officers wont enforce the law but I do think they did it completely wrong. It should have been open and announced, they have to work within the law and not violate our civil rights.

IMO, only by carefully studying the demonstrations in Hong Kong and comparing them with the demonstrations in the United States, then this thread will become very interesting and informative. This work needs kfcSmitty to complete. If he could do this, I will take back all my words against him and apologize to him.

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Originally Posted by dreammanor

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Originally Posted by FunkyDexter

OK, I'll rephrase. I won't be making you're argument for you.

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No, I have never been interested and have no time to debate, I just provide some information or questions for you to think when I occasionally have time. I think this is a way for me to give back (thank) to this forum.

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dreammanor, you've wrote quite a bit in this thread and others. If you know something, with all this time you have, why didn't you provide that info at the start instead of condescendingly telling Funky to go on an internet scavenger hunt in comment 2?

Put up or... um.. Google the rest. :bigyello:

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Originally Posted by Peter Porter

dreammanor, you've wrote quite a bit in this thread and others. If you know something, with all this time you have, why didn't you provide that info at the start instead of condescendingly telling Funky to go on an internet scavenger hunt in comment 2?

Put up or... um.. Google the rest. :bigyello:

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Even if I use Chinese to talk about Hong Kong, I have to write a lot of words.

Why do I, a Chinese, post a lot of comments on this chat forum? It is because I was very surprised to see that some people have little knowledge of China's information. Not only do they have very little information, but most of the information is wrong. But I don't know how to correct their prejudices or misinformation. Just like you see hundreds of thousands of errors in 50 million lines of code, do you know where to start to fix them?

If you see that 99% of the information about the United States held by almost all Chinese people is wrong, how do you use a language you are not familiar with (such as Chinese) to introduce the real situation in the United States to these dozens of people?

I'm surprised that the protests in Hong Kong were allowed to go on as long as they did, but I'm also surprised that China followed the treaty for as long as they did. Hong Kong was a business linchpin where foreign countries trusted that the rule of law prevailed. That is now gone, and Hong Kong is going to be a bone fought over by the biggest dogs on the planet.

Whenever there has been any kind of systematic riot in the US, it tends to be poor neighborhoods that get burned. They were getting the short end before, they get more of the same in any unrest. What's a bit odd about Portland is that....Portland has always been more than a bit odd. Now they have found a new way to be different.

This sort of shows the problem https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/25/us/po...gas/index.html

I was up late watching this on TV. You got mainly peaceful protests and then a group with a different agenda starts chaos. This time the Federal officers were staying out of site and didn't do anything until people start trying to tear down the fence. There was lots of debris in the streets and there was a fairly large fire, don't know what was burning but it wasn't a building.

So, should the people trying to tear down the fence be arrested? Is taking power tools to the fence a crime? What does destroying the fence or damaging that building have to do with what the protests are about?

The US and Canada are completely different. For a start, the US citizens haven't punched all of each other's front teeth out with hockey pucks yet. Totally different culture. Saying that Canada's just a part of the US is like saying Taiwan is just a part of China. (OK, that last bit was blatant troll bait but sometimes it's just too damn easy).

As for Uncle Roger: yeah, us Brits get equally triggered when an American vlogs on how to make the perfect cup of tea. She used a microwave! An honest to God frickin' microwave, damnit. And don't get me started on how much sugar she put in it. Ruddy septics.

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Now there is this cycle of peaceful protests during the day and then vandalism at night.

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There's always a certain amount of vandalism with protests. Most of us, including protest leaders, will denounce it in all but a few very specific cases (e.g. in the UK the toppling of the Colston statue was praised by BLM but every other act of vandalism has been condemned). Generally, protest leaders understand that bad behaviour will be seized on by the establishment and used to deflect from the point of the protest. It's what the UK press did when they started to write about how we needed to defend Churchill's statue... even though nobody was calling for it's removal. So a week later we get the unedifying spectacle of a bunch of football hooligans "defending" British values by throwing Nazi salutes in front of Churchill's statue and pissing on the plaque of a police officer who gave his life preventing a terrorist from killing people.

And don't be fooled that they are doing exactly that in the US right now. The reason the local police forces haven't been stepping in is that they actually get to see the acts of vandalism that are being reported and know that, while they are wrong, they do not present any where near the level of threat that you perceive them to be. Mainly because of how exaggerated they are by large sections of the media. The local police forces are making an informed decision on how to best manage risk vs rights. The media are selling copy. The politicians are chasing votes. I'll trust the first of those motives.

It's also why Black Lives Matter protesters usually look like this:-
Attachment 178065

While the counter protesters ALWAYS look like this:-
Attachment 178066
Seriously, which of those images frightens you more?

Are some of the protesters engaging in illegal and destructive activity? Yes but they represent a minority. The State authorities who are closer to the problem and have actual skin in the game understand that and understand what represents a proportional response. They are not calling for the kinds of interventions you're now seeing. The business owners, whose rights you cite and call to defend, are not calling for these interventions. The people calling for them are certain parts of the media... because it sells... and Trump... because he's desperate for votes.


Edit> Crossed over with Wes's post and wanted to react to the story in the link. This seems like an odd link to make his point because it's mostly about how peaceful the protests were and how disproportionate the federal response was (including once again tear gassing peaceful protests) so I wonder if it got edited a bit between Wes posting and me reading it. The pertinent bit come in the last few paragraphs:-

"On Friday night, a small group of protesters broke away from the larger crowd and began rocking a section of the fence back and forth and tossing fireworks into the barricaded area at around 10:45 p.m. Federal agents responded with a small release of flash bangs and a few canisters of tear gas.

As the group of agitators continued rocking the fence and tossing fireworks across the barricade, federal agents appeared to escalate their response, the CNN team observed.

A large group of the more peaceful protesters appeared to react to the the smaller group of agitators, by walking over and seeming to try to calm the situation."

... so, a small minority of protesters rocked a fence and threw some fireworks :eek:, the federals escalated their response with flashbangs and tear gas and the majority of protesters stepped in and stopped the minority from what they were doing. And your take away from that is that the protesters are the problem?

You want to ask why the police aren't doing their job? So do I. Why are they not preventing unidentified individuals from attacking abducting peaceful citizens from the streets?

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Originally Posted by FunkyDexter

Seriously, which of those images frightens you more?

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the first of course, there is much more power in that group than in the second. Both pictures show very well the difference between power and force.

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Originally Posted by FunkyDexter

You want to ask why the police aren't doing their job? So do I. Why are they not preventing unidentified individuals from attacking abducting peaceful citizens from the streets?

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the few we had as information in France is that the guys were arrested but free immediately because they are federal agents.

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Both pictures show very well the difference between power and force.

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Very, VERY well put. I'd rep that comment if I could (it doesn't work in ChitChat)

No, that was exactly the article I wanted people to read. The problem is you have missed the point of my posts.

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Live video feeds showed federal agents dispersing tear gas and flash bangs from behind the heavy metal fence set up as a barricade between the justice center and protesters.
Before the tear gas was released, a CNN team saw a large crowd of peaceful protesters chanting "Black lives matter" and waving the flashlights on their cell phones in the air while listening to speeches.
It was unclear if police or a federal agency released the gas.
Hundreds of people remained along the fence attempting to pull or push it over while some attempted to cut the fence with power tools, the PPB said. People in the crowd were armed with gas masks, shields, leaf blowers, power tools, fireworks and lasers, the PPB statement said.

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This show both sides of the issue. The good and the bad. I asked some simple questions in my last post and you have turned that into me living in fear and being manipulated by the media because I'm to stupid to understand what's going on.

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So, should the people trying to tear down the fence be arrested? Is taking power tools to the fence a crime? What does destroying the fence or damaging that building have to do with what the protests are about?

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I watched this happening on TV as I said before and this isn't what happened,

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... so, a small minority of protesters rocked a fence and threw some fireworks , the federals escalated their response and the majority of protesters stepped in and stopped the minority from what they were doing. And you're take away from that is that the protesters are the problem?

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They protesters didn't stop the minority that was causing problems, it continued. If you pay attention to the article it just says they attempted to. They weren't successful. The federal response escalated as the crowd attacks escalated. Last night the federal response wasn't disproportionate. My question wasn't about what has happened in the past, it was whether people committing criminal acts should be arrested.

If you notice this article was from CNN not FOX. Here is FOX's take, https://www.foxnews.com/us/feds-clas...estrict-agents

They're both bias but I know what I saw.

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Are some of the protesters engaging in illegal and destructive activity? Yes but they represent a minority. The State authorities who are closer to the problem and have actual skin in the game understand that and understand what represents a proportional response. They are not calling for the kinds of interventions you're now seeing. The business owners, whose rights you cite and call to defend, are not calling for these interventions. The people calling for them are certain parts of the media... because it sells... and Trump... because he's desperate for votes.

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I don't know where you got the idea that business owners are OK with the situation. In Seattle, they tried to sue the city because of the lack of protection. Justifying lack of police response because the people committing crimes are a minority doesn't make sense to me, criminals are always the minority. So is your opinion that as long as it's a minority then there should be no arrests for committing crimes. I'm trolling a little...

If you think that Seattle and Portland have handle this situation correctly that's fine. If you think the criminal behavior somehow helps the BLM movement, OK. If you don't think that anyone should be arrested, also OK.
That's why I asked the questions.

As for me, I think they've handled the situation badly. Criminals need to be held accountable, if the PPB had done that then Trump wouldn't have any excuse to send in the feds. Who knows maybe he would have anyway but that's not what my posts were about. My only reason for responding in this thread was, as I said, I'm baffled at the complete lack of response to the crimes being committed by the local officials.

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Originally Posted by wes4dbt

My only reason for responding in this thread was, as I said, I'm baffled at the complete lack of response to the crimes being committed by the local officials.

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My understanding was that the Mayors in those cities (Portland among them) had ordered their police to do nothing.

You can figure out their motivation on your own.

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Originally Posted by dilettante

My understanding was that the Mayors in those cities (Portland among them) had ordered their police to do nothing.

You can figure out their motivation on your own.

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Your probably right. My guess is they're afraid that enforcing the law would escalate the violence. Maybe that was a good idea at first but 50+ days later I think that approach has now been turned against the city because once people realized there is no consequences for their actions it has emboldened some people to commit criminal acts. I know that if I went downtown and started spray paint a store front or public building or starting a fire in the middle of the street I would be arrested. So by not responding to these acts what you have done is created a double standard, which is one of the main things people are protesting against.

Well that's enough preaching for me. Think I'll take a nap. lol

When Bundy's group took over the Malheur Wildlife Refuge, I felt they had done something illegal, too. The police did very little other than watch. The one time they took action, somebody died, and he pretty well earned it. What other alternative did they have? How many would have died in an assault? How many got away? The police did well, the prosecutors overreached.

Does the fence matter? No, not really. Sure, it's destruction of property, but it's pretty minor property. Take some pictures, deal with people later. I have no problem with that. The alternative is to send police into a hostile crowd to arrest somebody. Sending one guy would be a pretty bad idea, so you'd have to send a well protected group. Right or wrong, that's going to inflame things. I do think vandals should be charged (except in this state, because graduates of the University of Idaho are known as vandals, as that's the schools...mascot...ish thing, so I have lots of friends and colleagues who are vandals), but I see no reason to do so at the time.

This is also how most police deal with chases, now. If they have an ID on the person, let them run. Some people just run, so let them, then deal with it later when they've gotten it out of their system. It reduces the number of high speed chases and keeps everybody safer. In this case, they're following the same tactic, as far as I can see, and I'm fine with that.

I'm not so fine with the federales. We don't have a national police force, so who are they? Is this what they are trained to do? The FBI, in particular, has some history of being overly aggressive to the detriment of all around. Are these folks better? Probably not, as whoever they are, they aren't trained in the area they are now being asked to inhabit.

SH,

Yeah I remember a little about the Bundy group. Now today we got armed militias rivals in Louisville. https://www.axios.com/armed-militias...07e650ddc.html
I can remember when I use to enjoy guns, I was raised in the country, target practice, hunting was part of life. But now when I see groups of people walking city streets dressed in camo with assault rifles, it just makes me angry and sad for our country. I'd move to the UK but I don't speak their language. :p

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Does the fence matter? No, not really. Sure, it's destruction of property, but it's pretty minor property. Take some pictures, deal with people later. I have no problem with that. The alternative is to send police into a hostile crowd to arrest somebody. Sending one guy would be a pretty bad idea, so you'd have to send a well protected group. Right or wrong, that's going to inflame things. I do think vandals should be charged (except in this state, because graduates of the University of Idaho are known as vandals, as that's the schools...mascot...ish thing, so I have lots of friends and colleagues who are vandals), but I see no reason to do so at the time.

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I mostly agree and if this was just about one fence or one building, I'd completely agree. Did you see what that CHOP zone in Seattle looked like by the time that area was cleared, it was blocks and blocks of damaged property. I don't know how well the idea of take some pictures now and arrest them later would work. It's night and they're wearing masks, plus it leaves them on the street for months to continue these activities.

If I'm reading your post right, it seems you think the best approach is do no policing, because that would inflame things. I can see that as a very attractive solution unless your someone being directly affected by the vandalism. Then there is the question of which laws is it ok for them to break before taking the chance of inflaming things.

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I'm not so fine with the federales. We don't have a national police force, so who are they? Is this what they are trained to do? The FBI, in particular, has some history of being overly aggressive to the detriment of all around. Are these folks better? Probably not, as whoever they are, they aren't trained in the area they are now being asked to inhabit.

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This was done very poorly and underhandedly. States have had federal units working within their states before but it was a cooperative effort.

I think most people were thinking that this situation would just burn itself out. We'll just look the other way for a while and the problem will just go away by itself. That usually works but we're going on 2 months now. Got to admire the dedication of the protesters, I hope good things come out of all their effort.

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you have turned that into me living in fear and being manipulated by the media because I'm to stupid to understand what's going on.

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Not you personally. All of us. You, me, everyone. Affirmation bias is powerful and none of us are exempt. To be clear, the media's goal is not to present you with a bias opinion, it's to make money. Pandering to (or antagonising) your affirmation bias is simply the means to that end. But the effect is still that, in the face of scenes reminiscent of police crackdowns under autocratic, authoritarian regimes which we have long sought to condemn, you will still concern yourself with fences and graffiti.

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I don't know where you got the idea that business owners are OK with the situation

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I didn't say they were OK with it, I said they weren't calling for this kind of response. You've bought up the Chop but that comparison doesn't apply. The Chop was allowed to exist (I think I agree that it was allowed to do so for longer than necessary) and was ended by an identifiable Seattle police operation. Portland, on the hand, is currently seeing unidentified heavily armed men and the footage is clear and easily found: they are attacking and abducting peaceful protesters. It isn't correlating with the criminality of the targets. The point is not law enforcement. The point is intimidation.

I actually think the timing on the Chop was about right, if a little late. Seriously, go back and watch the footage of it finally being shutdown. It's actually pretty peaceful and I feel the reason for that was that he steam had already been allowed to go out of it. The authorities let it run it's course and then ended it in a single rolling barrier march. Contrast that to Portland.

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Did you see what that CHOP zone in Seattle looked like by the time that area was cleared

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Yes, debris and graffiti, and all of it covered by business insurance. That doesn't justify the vandalism but neither does it justify unidentified heavily armed men attacking and abducting peaceful citizens from the streets in Portland.

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If you think that Seattle and Portland have handle this situation correctly that's fine. If you think the criminal behavior somehow helps the BLM movement, OK. If you don't think that anyone should be arrested, also OK.

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Didn't say any of those things but you carry on building your straw men. It'll make you feel better that your self selected bogey men are finally getting the billy-clubbing they deserve... by unidentified heavily armed men.

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I'm trolling a little

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<shrug> no more than I am. I don't feel like either of us is descending to insults, though, so I'm cool with it if you are.

I swear, youngin's today don't know how to riot properly. Now LA Riots of the 90's .... now that was proper rioting... weeks and weeks of total chaos and mayhem.

-tg

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Originally Posted by techgnome

I swear, youngin's today don't know how to riot properly.

-tg

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That's young'uns, not youngin's. Use proper American, you illiterate goob.

Doesn't the spelling depend on whether you're from the South or not?

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Originally Posted by FunkyDexter

Portland, on the hand, is currently seeing unidentified heavily armed men...

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Sorry, but that's neoliberal media narrative, or willful hyperbole... or something.

In every photo and video I have seen those Federal cops are clearly identified as "Police DHS" and not "unidentified" at all.

Attachment 178087

Attachment 178088


This has to be just about the weakest link in the scare stories people use as an excuse to run around with their hair on fire.

I've notice that most of the still photos used in the media are those where an arm or equipment is covering their markings. Where that wasn't possible they have have the gamma adjusted way up or down to help obscure these details.

What a joke!

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unidentified heavily armed men.

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You seem to be fixated on that. Well, I already stated my opinion on that in my first post. Hell we're way past that but if that's all you want to talk about then I'll just move on. It's your thread.

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Didn't say any of those things but you carry on building your straw men. It'll make you feel better that your self selected bogey men are finally getting the billy-clubbing they deserve... by unidentified heavily armed men

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No you haven't answered any of those questions and I never said I wanted people billy-clubbed. But you do continue to spread a false narrative about the situation.

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Yes, debris and graffiti,

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So all you've seen is a few bad apples with spray paint.

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and all of it covered by business insurance

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Really, is that your justification to not hold people accountable for their actions. Does it pay the owners for all their lost revenue, once it's safe they just throw on some new paint and replace the windows, bam everything is ok no other problems. Does make me wonder why they arrest arsonist and bank robbers. Buildings and banks are insured. lol

The anti-globalization movement goes beyond nationalism.

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Sorry, but that's neoliberal media narrative, or willful hyperbole... or something.

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In every photo and video I have seen those Federal cops are clearly identified as "Police DHS" and not "unidentified" at all.

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So you haven't seen pictures of the unidentified officers does that mean they dont exist or you have just not seen them?

I have to say either way those photos look worrying to me almost like Trump after he couldn't get the Army on the streets, instead gets as near as damn close to it as he can.

Making the authorities faceless. Hollywood approves, I'm sure. It allows both sides to deny responsibility for any actions.