A call for open sourcing VB6

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJjzMwo1elA

Since this video where I had firstly posted it was lost in troll posts, I've decided to put it in a new thread in hope that it will reach as many people as possible. So, I'm asking community to watch this video and express their opinions about that.

P.S. I see that some people are ready to criticize grammar in video, but don't judge me because I was hurrying myself up to finish it sooner, and also consider that English isn't my native language. And I don't think that a few grammatical errors will be noticed by someone who is focused rather on the message itself than on checking it's text.

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MS has already stated that they will not open source VB6, why the futile call?

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Originally Posted by dee-u

MS has already stated that they will not open source VB6, why the futile call?

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As stated in video, it's a revolt against that decision.

Microsoft as the developer and owner of a product decided to phase out their product to develop a new product.
This is just business as usual. The fact that they do not want to give away their intellectual property is again within their rights.

That fact that you want them to give you their property for free does not make what you are doing a revolt of any kind.

Put a sock in it.

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Originally Posted by MikiSoft

As stated in video, it's a revolt against that decision.

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There was no need to start a new thread just post the video! You should have search the forum the last thread on the subject in located here.

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Originally Posted by Nightwalker83

There was no need to start a new thread just post the video! You should have search the forum the last thread on the subject in located here.

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Go back and read my first post. I already said that I've posted this video in that troll thread and only a few people saw it.

@Gruff: Remember a revolt against Microsoft's decision to remove Skype API, did that happen? Never say never. ;)

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As stated in video, it's a revolt against that decision.

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Oh look its this thread again, Boooooooooooooooooring.

Where is Niya when you need him?

Ford discontinued the Model T. Help me protest to bring back the Model T.


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Wow, such comparison. *clap clap*
I think that you didn't accept the fact that VB6 is still widely used, so I suggest you to look at Tiobe's list and tell me at which position is ranked. ;)

Little known fact: Ford also offered a Model A express for free.
Stick in the mud Model T'ers ignored it.

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You're right... that is an unfair comparison.

Especially since VB3 is much more closer to the Model T, with VB4 being like the Studebaker,
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and the Edsel being like VB6
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Here's the thing. These posts come across as being whiny and spoiled. The remind me of the 8year old kid that throws a temper tantrum because mommy didn't buy the latest Pokemon toy. And that's why you get the reactions you get. Of course then the other side can't help but to poke the bear, and naturally you take the bait and try to poke back, furhter fueling the whiny spoiled brat image.

Now, if you want an intelligent conversation about the matter, fine. But throwing up video up like this with no other purpose than to stir the pot doesn't do you a lot of good. Just like all the other trheads, this does nothing ore than stir up the emotions. So 7,4000+ people signed a petition? Big deal. People talk about that like it's some mass of numbers. It's not. When you think about the number of developers worldwide, I doubt it's much of a drop in a drop in the bucket.

And Tiobe's index... I think we've all discussed ad nauseum about the inaccuracies of that one.

Again, if you want a fair an intelligent discussion about it, bring it on. All you've done is to demand that it be open sourced. but not why. Or who... Who will take care of it? Who will manage it? And what will it do that it doesn't do now? And I think what people really want ISN'T VB6 the language itself, but the compiler.

-tg

You're right. lets bring back the Geo Metro.

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@techgnome: As I said above, I'm ready to hear opinions from the other people about this movement. It doesn't really matter what part of the VS6 will be open sourced as long as it is acceptable, but I believe that if Microsoft rethinks and decides to do so, it would be very much appreciated by developers around the globe, and eventually someone will continue to expand it's functionality. You already know that there are as many ideas as people who are interested in creating a new VB6, because Microsoft surely won't do that. So, this video was created in the purpose of encouraging that people who disregard and whine about the Visual Studio team's statement, to unite and really do something about that, at least to try to make it possible to be changed.
And that's all I can say.

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Originally Posted by MikiSoft

@techgnome: As I said above, I'm ready to hear opinions from the other people about this movement. It doesn't really matter what part of the VS6 will be open sourced as long as it is acceptable, but I believe that if Microsoft rethinks and decides to do so, it would be very much appreciated by developers around the globe, and eventually someone will continue to expand it's functionality. You already know that there are ideas and people who are interested in creating a new VB6, because Microsoft surely won't do that. So, this video was created in the purpose of encouraging that people instead of disregarding and whining about Visual Studio team's statement, to really do something about that to be changed.

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Ok, my opinion - I think you're a Quixotic fool for trying to tilt this windmill.

And I'm going to ask again... what does VB6 need to do that it doesn't do now, for which you want it to be open sourced? To have it open source means that it is lacking something you need or want it to do. Otherwise, why have it open source, right? Again, I'm also going to ask, who is going to maintain it? Who is going to be the gatekeeper that maintains the balance and harmony of the changes? I also keep hearing that there are people that want a new VB6... but then wouldn't it be VB7? But I also hear that over and over from the same smallish group of people. And if those people are interested in a new VB6 (version not withstanding) where are they now? why HASN'T that "new and improved" VB6 been created? Where are they? Why isn't any one pushing this new VB6? It's just not there.

This is where the OS-VB6 starts to fall apart. One thing people people can agree on is that VB6 should live forever... and it will until the underlying architecture can no longer support it, either because memory addressing finally get to a point where VB6 can no longer handle it, or the registers change such that the byte code simply chokes, it will still be able to be run. You can still install VB6 and develop with it. So that argument doesn't hold much water as I see it.
The second problem with making VB6 OS is change management. Everyone is going to start shoving in their changes that they want to see. Again, this is all running on emotion. For example, first thing I'd do is make Integer 32-bit finally... Longs become 64-bit, just like they pretty much are every where else. Suddenly I've broken a lot of people's code. But I don't care, I got my selfish need done. Until someone comes along and undoes that. Just about anything and everything any one wants to do with it are purely emotional and selfish. It's just going to be the nature of the beast.

which then leads to the final problem, fracturing. That's already happened. And it's also where this supposed legion of developers for VB6 are...B4J, RealBASIC, are jsut two that I can think of off the top of my head. And I know there's a ton of others. All created for a need (see? there's the selfish reasons rearing up its ugly head). How well they fill that need remains to be seen. But the biggest problem I've seen with OS, is unless you have a backer that's willing to toss money down that rabbit hole, once the interest runs out, participation falls off fast.

If you're serious about this, why don't you do something productive about it? Take your own advice ans "really do something about that". Build a plan. Explain why it would be beneficial to MS to release VB as open source. Build a business plan for financial backing, team structure, review processes, debugging and release schedules/plans. Release THAT as a petition. Get people on board with that. Then get people to sign on to the different positions. Then take that to Microsoft and see if they would be interested in being the financial backer it, and lay out what they are going to get out of the investment. And come up with financial backing plan C and D and E and possibly F.

Otherwise you're just farting in the wind my friend. Farting in the wind.

-tg

We have had all these argument in several previous threads.

People are bored now because you aren't adding anything new, you are just rehashing the same old tired arguments that we have all heard before.

MS Have categorically said they will not Open Source, they have no reason to do so, it is not in there interests.

With Skype, this was a product that they were still developing and supporting, they had a base of customers that they needed to keep happy.

With VB6 all they need to do is keep the comparability there so VB6 Apps will work on the next few Windows versions, This way Companies are happy that there applications wont suddenly break.

The fact that you and some other developers are not happy with there decision doesn't mean anything, you have no leverage with MS.

(oh and 7000 odd people is a very very small number, why do people keep quoting that petition as a reason for MS to listen?)

Also finally what do you think Open sourcing VB6 will get you? What is your ultimate goal, i am not sure you even know!

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Originally Posted by MikiSoft

Go back and read my first post. I already said that I've posted this video in that troll thread and only a few people saw it.

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Still, that is NO reason to start a new thread and post it.

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I'm ready to hear opinions from the other people about this movement.

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I actually think it's this sort of statement that ends up inviting so much antagonism in these threads. AxisDJ has a nasty habit of starting his threads with "I want you to tell me what to do" (or words to that effect). You say you want to hear our opinions. But when we respond we invariably find that that's not true. What you want is validation. You want us to tell you that you were right to stick with VB6. You want us to tell you that Microsoft owe you a debt a fealty. Well we don't think those things. We think you're wrong. If you don't want to hear that, stop asking.

You want our opinion, here it is: Continuing to base your business model a tool that was depracated a decade and a half ago is bad business.

At the end of the day, though, our opinion shouldn't matter that much to you. You're the one that needs to make a decision. And then own it. Stop blaming Microsoft for the fact that they made a decision. And owned it.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...2LzVBosMtWnuaD

Oh my God! Not another one!

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Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers

Oh look its this thread again, Boooooooooooooooooring.

Where is Niya when you need him?

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I swear to God, someone needs to make an add-in that would alert me whenever one of these pops up. I always find them a little late!

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Originally Posted by techgnome

Again, if you want a fair an intelligent discussion about it, bring it on.

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I think we had just about every type of discussion about this. Intelligent ones, not so intelligent ones, downright stupid ones, flamewars, shitstorms, just about every kind of way people can talk about something, this was talked about. Man, this topic is just overused bait.

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Originally Posted by MikiSoft

Since this video where I had firstly posted it was lost in troll posts, I've decided to put it in a new thread in hope that it will reach as many people as possible. So, I'm asking community to watch this video and express their opinions about that.

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http://i61.tinypic.com/hweuzk.jpg

Serously?

As if anyone cares about online petitions anyways. Way to be a weekend warrior. Forget the Model T, bring back the McRib!!!!

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Originally Posted by jayinthe813

As if anyone cares about online petitions anyways. Way to be a weekend warrior. Forget the Model T, bring back the McRib!!!!

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Now THAT is a petition I can get behind.

-tg

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Originally Posted by techgnome

Ok, my opinion - I think you're a Quixotic fool for trying to tilt this windmill.

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This sentence should be automatically added to any thread on this topic.

As someone who still enjoys working with VB6, I'm not sure why VB6 developers think that open-sourcing VB6 would solve anything. For every successful proprietary to open-source conversion (e.g. Netscape to Firefox), there are a thousand counter-examples where the open-source version either withered on the vine, or got actively worse. Open-sourcing a closed codebase is a monumental task. It takes tens of thousands of man-hours from both developers and lawyers, and no company is going to invest that money unless there's a clear ROI. In the case of VB6, there is effectively zero ROI. It's just not gonna happen.

I could share many links on this topic, but here's a short and simple one, for the uninitiated:

Open sourcing is not easy

Even if Microsoft did go to all that effort (lol), it's not like VB6 users could do anything with the resulting codebase. VB6 wasn't written in Visual Basic. You'd need a team of highly skilled C++ and ASM developers to do anything meaningful with the source code, and I doubt you're going to find a bunch of top-notch C++ programmers willing to modernize a Visual Basic codebase.

I'd honestly be curious to know how many VB6 developers have ever even contributed to an open-source project. Open-source doesn't work when the community is a bunch of entitled developers who simply want something for free, and unfortunately, I get the feeling that 99+% of VB6 petition-signers fall into that category.

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Originally Posted by Tanner_H

This sentence should be automatically added to any thread on this topic.

As someone who still enjoys working with VB6, I'm not sure why VB6 developers think that open-sourcing VB6 would solve anything. For every successful proprietary to open-source conversion (e.g. Netscape to Firefox), there are a thousand counter-examples where the open-source version either withered on the vine, or got actively worse. Open-sourcing a closed codebase is a monumental task. It takes tens of thousands of man-hours from both developers and lawyers, and no company is going to invest that money unless there's a clear ROI. In the case of VB6, there is effectively zero ROI. It's just not gonna happen.

I could share many links on this topic, but here's a short and simple one, for the uninitiated:

Open sourcing is not easy

Even if Microsoft did go to all that effort (lol), it's not like VB6 users could do anything with the resulting codebase. VB6 wasn't written in Visual Basic. You'd need a team of highly skilled C++ and ASM developers to do anything meaningful with the source code, and I doubt you're going to find a bunch of top-notch C++ programmers willing to modernize a Visual Basic codebase.

I'd honestly be curious to know how many VB6 developers have ever even contributed to an open-source project. Open-source doesn't work when the community is a bunch of entitled developers who simply want something for free, and unfortunately, I get the feeling that 99+% of VB6 petition-signers fall into that category.

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I have seen posts on this forum where vb6'ers claim that either themselves or their crowd already know c++ or assembly as a sweeping generalization to try and show that this already exists. What I don't get is why even bother using vb6 then, c++ has so many more libraries for everything you could ever want to do.

As you said, even if they did open source it, is there actually going to be serious development? In a day and age where more of the focus is on web or native mobile apps, is vb6 really worth releasing? MS views .NET as the successor whether vb6 fanbase likes it or not.

Well, I'm disappointed that the OP hasn't joined back in for over 12 posts now... It's no fun.

-tg

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Originally Posted by jayinthe813

As you said, even if they did open source it, is there actually going to be serious development? In a day and age where more of the focus is on web or native mobile apps, is vb6 really worth releasing?

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These are really the important questions, and the answer to all of them has to be "no," right? Microsoft has open-sourced quite a few technologies over the years, so they know what kind of work is involved, and they're obviously willing to do it when the benefits outweigh the costs. I just don't see any benefits to doing it for VB6, at least not from their point of view - and the various people begging for an open-source VB6 haven't made a case either.

There are paths that the community could take toward creating a "modern" VB6, and honestly every one of these would be less work than open-sourcing VB6 and attempting to modernize its codebase. VB6 is a tangled mess of great ideas mixed with horrible legacy BASIC ideas, and its compiler produces a mess of not-quite-bytecode but not-quite-native code, so modernizing just the compiler - let alone the IDE - would be somewhat like taking a road car and trying to turn it into an airplane. You'd be way better off just building the plane from scratch, and doing it right instead of relying on an outdated, irrelevant foundation.

Microsoft obviously knew this when they moved to .Net, as you say. And whatever flaws .Net has, hopefully everyone agrees that the concept of "write-once run-anywhere" is worth pursuing. Google and Apple and the Linux Foundation all agree, so Microsoft seems to be in good company there.

If VB6 developers were already participating in great open-source VB6-like projects like Gambas, I might believe that they were capable of doing something meaningful with the VB6 source code. But whining != coding, and I see very few VB6 developers who produce good VB6 code, let alone good C++-driven compilers...

(shrugs)

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Originally Posted by techgnome

Well, I'm disappointed that the OP hasn't joined back in for over 12 posts now... It's no fun.

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If this topic ever comes up again (what am I saying - of course it will come up again), I would like to reply with a standard set of questions for the OP.

"What open-source projects have you started? Which open-source projects have you contributed to? Have you ever participated in a project with more than a few thousand lines of code? Have you ever written a compiler, or submitted a patch for an existing one? Do you know how to use Git, or Subversion, or at least TFS?"

If someone can answer those questions satisfactorily, then they've probably earned the right to sign VB6 petitions or start threads like this. But if they can't answer those questions, what's the point?

I don't see what it hurts to ask for this.

I don't expect it to happen, and I don't expect anything to come of it if it did. But why are so many people so afraid every time they see it suggested?

Not sure I see this "fear" you reference. Are people afraid? Or just exasperated?

I fall into the latter category. If I take a trip over to the OP's website, I see a coder with a lot of experience and ambition. He could be a great asset to any number of open-source projects. Contributing to such projects would, in my mind, be a much better use of his time and talents than tilting at the "petition to open-source VB6" windmill (to steal tg's reference).

I mentioned Gambas above. This is a working, mature, modernized re-imagination of VB6. It has made great progress over the years, largely due to one hard-working developer. If everyone who signed a VB6 petition actually contributed to an existing open-source project like Gambas, an open-source VB6 replacement would already exist.

I think it must be fear.

Why else do we see such rabid attacks? Anyone not interested could just pass such a thread by without commenting and let them fade into obscurity.

I was going to pass on a comment until I saw the word "Revolt" being mangled as applied to what he wants.
Silly to step in though as the OP appears to be the type to let it fly over his head.
After that it was meant to be the gentle poking of fun. No fear here my dear.

Looked a lot more like what the kids call "cyber bullying" to me. Could even get the site shut down.

Personally I couldn't care less if VB6 comes back or not. It isn't any threat to me or what I do, so I don't exactly give two farts what happens. What I get tired of is the continual "poor pitty me" crap that usually comes out of these threads. In fact if you go back and read some of my posts, I did in fact try to engage in a meaningful dialog. I think these threads would get taken a lot more seriously and treated with greater respect if there was a plan. Right now it's a disorganized whiny immature attempt at trying to stir up emotions. The OP even admitted to such. Instead of trying to stir up trouble on a site where it's very well known by now, that you're going to just get ridiculed, why not DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT? And I don't mean another petition, we know those don't work. I mean do something serious. If there really are that many people out there that are passionate about this and really want it, then fine, by all means DO something, quit whining about it. You really want a revolution? Organize, start an open source project that can use existing VB6 files and compile them. Yes, that means building your own IDE and your own compiler. Need funds? Get those 7,000 VB6 developers to pitch in $50 a piece. Small price to pay considering what can VB6 costs. That gives you starting capital of $350,000 to start with.

That's the problem that I see with these threads. there's this misguided entitlement attitude that somehow Microsoft owes somebody something. And that's bu!!$h!t and we all know it. I know there's a bunch of people here that still use VB6, great more power to them. If it works, great. For a large part of what I do, VB6 doesn't cut it. I moved on yay me. You haven't, ok, yay you!

SO you tell me where's the fear? That's not the first time I've seen you spout that theory off.

-tg

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Yesterday I made this video in the purpose of practicing in Sony Vegas, and as it turned out that it was a good result I decided to publish it, so take a look:

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It was just a practice and thought it was good so he published it? I don't think the OP has a deep reason to open source VB6. And he is not even a programmer but creates a program that downloads youtube videos.:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by dilettante

I think it must be fear.

Why else do we see such rabid attacks? Anyone not interested could just pass such a thread by without commenting and let them fade into obscurity.

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What is there to fear? While VB6 going open source may be great for enthusiasts, I do not believe that companies will embrace it. Everything I see for my company is slowly becoming MongoDB/JSON, etc. If anything should be feared, it should be web development; but that should not be feared either, because technology will change and its just a new thing to learn.

I would hardly call it attacking the OP. At this point creating online petitions requesting Microsoft to open source VB6 after they had already said they have no interest in doing so is completely absurd. We already have a ton of threads about this topic, it becomes more of a joke at this point. The message is constantly "MICROSOFT DO SOMETHING!!!" instead of "Community, lets come together to do something".

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Originally Posted by dilettante

But why are so many people so afraid every time they see it suggested?

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Afraid ?
http://i58.tinypic.com/nx2tu.jpg

More like annoyed...

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Originally Posted by dee-u

And he is not even a programmer but creates a program that downloads youtube videos.:rolleyes:

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The great irony here is that VB.Net is far better suited to write these kinds of apps.

Can I start a petition to derail this thread ? Wonder if Tiobe would like to help me...

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I think it must be fear

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Nope, it's definitely exasperation.

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he is not even a programmer but creates a program that downloads youtube videos

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erm, he probably shouldn't be doing that. Just sayin':rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by FunkyDexter

erm, he probably shouldn't be doing that. Just sayin':rolleyes:

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If schmidt's link can be considered an advertisement then I think that signature is worse. Just sayin. :afrog:

I hadn't spotted the link in the sig but I agree. I'll allow MikeSoft the opportunity to remove it himself though.