as per the reports on most news sites.
So that brings to close one ten year long campaign. What next?
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as per the reports on most news sites.
So that brings to close one ten year long campaign. What next?
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Gadhafi's waiving white flag, so all price hikes will stop :D.
No, I mean what will the US do now?
The war against terror has majorly kept things moving in the US, as there was a tangible objective of eliminating bin Laden. Now that the objective has been accomplished, the campaign is likely to lose a lot of steam. Though it will be a big plus for Obama for his reelection bid, he must now substitute the hunt for bin Laden with an equally compelling and appealing objective.
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Bet it won't stop one from having to take off one's shoes for the scanners at the airport.
Waiting for a reaction...
I have a question Related to this topic.
Do you think there will now be less terrorism in the world because he is dead ?
Or maybe someone will replace him that is worse ?
More likely someone will replace him. One likely reason is there are many who share his views and so will likely try to advance his views through words and actions. Second, probably less likely but scarier, reason is the US will need someone before long.
Assuming 9/11 didn't happen and the war on terror wasn't waged, where would the US be?
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Hooray!!Quote:
Originally Posted by honeybee
I'm just afraid that someone less smart than Bin Laden will replace him.
Sure it is a major concern and Homeland security is on its feet 24/7 now more than ever before most probably.Quote:
Originally Posted by penagate
However, the message was sent - no one gets away with murders even if it takes 10 years!
Unfortunately the biggest problem as I see it is many "members" of AQ are so brainwashed they don't care much. :mad:
It's great that he's dead, but at the same time I hate to see the death of a misguided life celebrated so much.
Better off???Quote:
Assuming 9/11 didn't happen and the war on terror wasn't waged, where would the US be?
I agree. Imagine what he could've done if he put his energy into something other than murder.Quote:
Originally Posted by System_Error
Good answer!!Quote:
Originally Posted by System_Error
I agree and I'm kinda wondering why they wanted him DEAD so much. Pretty sure they could have just captured him. And also, for a so powerful nation how could it take so long to get to him :pQuote:
Originally Posted by System_Error
It shows you how easy it can be to hide if you are wealthy and choose a good spot.Quote:
Originally Posted by stlaural
Indeed. They played a pretty long game of hide and seek.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarMan
When there's a fire fight... you're not interested in not hitting the other side. When the other side started shooting, you shoot back (and I don't claim to know who or which side shot first... I'm just saying in general)... It becomes a game of shoot or be shot.Quote:
I agree and I'm kinda wondering why they wanted him DEAD so much. Pretty sure they could have just captured him.
Otherwise armies would outfit themselves with Nerf(tm) darts.
-tg
Have you ever seen Osama without an AK-47 within arms reach? ;)Quote:
I agree and I'm kinda wondering why they wanted him DEAD so much. Pretty sure they could have just captured him.
Pakistan had the intelligence of his whereabouts, but they played both sides for a long time...Quote:
And also, for a so powerful nation how could it take so long to get to him
I'm pretty sure they will soon find something else to have a reason to put fear in us.
I mean how else will they justify the billions of dollars they waste on the army?
I would guess that we are so much better off with him dead that the seal team wasn't told, "We want him ALIVE." I would guess that they were just told that we want his body, and it has to be recognizable, but nothing more.
As to the impact of this, I'm not as pessimistic as some of you, which is a bit different. Modern terrorism is so much about advertising that a public loss like that might very much weaken AQ. They aren't independent agents. They exist because people are willing to supply them with their necessities: Money, security, recruits, supplies, etc. The people doing the supplying aren't the people doing the dying. They are pretty much arm-chair backers. In fact, you could see them as investors. They have some position that they back, such that they are willing to invest certain things in it, but it isn't a cause that they are willing to give their lives for. Furthermore, they have lots of alternative organizations that are competing for their resources. The investor decides where they would get the most bang for their buck (which is more literally true in terrorism than elsewhere).
Therefore, the terrorist organizations are like any other NGO, competing for resources from a limitted number of independent investors. The attacks of 9/11 weren't an attempt to topple the US. There was no concerted effort to bring down the government, no follow-up, no timetable, nothing like that. It was a single, enormous attack which would be highly visible, and have a largely symbolic result. In other words, it was a high-profile advertising campaign, which vaulted AQ up to the top of the pile when it came to competing for resources.
If that is the case, then they have just suffered a VERY serious setback. It isn't that the rank and file will be any less motivated. They may even be MORE motivated, since vengeance is such a powerful motivator in our lives, but the organization has just taken a highly visible hit where it hurts the most: Right in the prestige. This could seriously impact their ability to compete for the independent investment resources that have allowed them to keep going. That impact could starve them back down to a second tier organization, which becomes a positive feedback loop. The loss drops their resources, making it harder to take effective action, which makes them appear weaker, which further drops their resources. After all, they have no core goal, just a few implausible platitudes (opposition to the west, and so forth, which is all vague and immeasurable).
I would expect one of two actions: A rather desperate attempt to strike back to prove they are still relevant, or a slide into obscurity (or both, I suppose).
I'm waiting on time to tell how significant this will actually be. I'm glad that he's gone, but at the same time I'm not sure if this one victory has been worth the lives and resources that went into it.
How 'bout "fix the economy!"? I think that will be more important to voters come election time. Osama's dead, can we bring some of those war funds back home now plz?Quote:
Though it will be a big plus for Obama for his reelection bid, he must now substitute the hunt for bin Laden with an equally compelling and appealing objective.
Binladen is the dead! You go girl... to hell.
10 years is also pretty much the time span of his planning of the bombing in the first place (rumor)Quote:
Originally Posted by RhinoBull
just because it's on the news doesn't make it real.Quote:
Originally Posted by System_Error
Fact: Someone with a beard was shot in the face, making the identification by that method impossible.
Fact: Before actual forensic proof of the body's identification could be determined, the body was whisked away hundreds of miles and dropped into the sea.
When you put this in front of you, you start to trace back all the "he's dead" statements and you see they all originated in the white house in a 10 minute speech by a president that 2/3 of the country thinks is Muslim anyway.
Even if he really is dead, the circumstances of this (in an election year!) are going to cause some serious fall-out.
Indeed, and it might be that some people still hold the grudge that may lead them to more broader terrism action.Quote:
Even if he really is dead, the circumstances of this (in an election year!) are going to cause some serious fall-out.
So far there have been no claims to the contrary, so I think we can safely assume it was bin Laden who was shot dead. If indeed it had been mistaken identity, the real bin Laden wouldn't have waited so long to proclaim the folly of the US forces.
About Al Qaeda, I believe it's an organization guided more by charisma than any other thing. This charisma was of bin Laden. With him gone, there's no other leader who will motivate and put into motion the entire framework of Al Qaeda (whatever remains of it). So as Shaggy Hiker put it, the people will try to strike back on their own and be annihilated in the process, or the whole framework will slowly disband over a period of time or both. Most likely it will resurface under some other name. There is a third, but quite remote possibility of someone taking bin Laden's place and reviving the outfit.
My question about the US was more to do with the plans for the future. Somewhere I believe the 9/11 and the hunt for Osama provided a reason for the US to be on the offensive, to mobilize its resources, to have a purpose. Now that the purpose is gone, it will have to be replaced with an equally strong one. While the bin Laden elimination scores big for Obama, he has the equally challenging task of turning around the nation's focus to some other areas. This was one campaign which most of the US citizens had backed, explicitly or implicitly. So I can say the whole nation was united behind this objective, and the result is now on the table. Can Obama, or some other president, unite the whole nation behind another equally significant objective?
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Btw, this is the best news report on the incident.
Are you old enough to remember the world before this "war on terror"? The US was not involved in any wars for 25 years. Why? There was no need. you seem to be focused on violence. Not everyone is as violent as you believe. American movies do NOT depict what life is like in this country. This is a great place to live.Quote:
Originally Posted by honeybee
LAND OF THE FREE AND HOME OF THE BRAVE!!!
Presumably you mean except the first Gulf war, in which the US was a direct participating party, or where they had a very definite presence in many others such as the Balkan war, the Somali civil war, Sierra Leone, Liberia, Libya in the 80's......Quote:
Originally Posted by MarMan
Sounds like you call safe guarding humanitarian aid and other unwarlike behavior a war . No wondoer we disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by zaza
MarMan, there's a good book I just read titled The Savage Wars of Peace. Basically, the US has officially declared war only a handful of times, but we have had troops engaged in firefights in foreign countries for most years that we have existed. The premise of the book was that we learned a HUGE amount about how to fight such wars, then in WWII, we largely shelved the information gleaned from those conflicts, which led to our largest undeclared war: Vietnam. It's a good read, not just for the history, but also the lessons learned from such conflicts.
However, your suggestion that we haven't engaged in warlike behavior is totally indefensible. During the window you mentioned, we did fight Gulf War I, and staged armed invasions of two different countries (Grenada and Nicaragua). You might claim that the former was "safe guarding humanitarian aid", but that would be seriously stretching the definition. The other two bear no resemblance to that phrase in any way. I would argue that the late stage of the Somalia mission, when the UN took over, was also much more warlike than you suggest.
I forgot about the gulf war so I was wrong there. However, it depends on how you define war. Peace mongers would call any conflict a war to bias the argument to thier plight. I don't call an invasion a war. That's why there are two different words, to supply two different meanings. A car is not a truck, although many people use the words incorrectly. The way zaza defines it, nearly every nation in the world is at war nearly every year. If you wish to stretch a definition like that, then it dilutes the word and makes it use almost meaningless.
The Savage Wars of Peace, sounds interesting. Whose point of view is it?
in world theres is 2 "especies":
- us... the good people;
-and the bad people... like Bin Laden and others.
that's true that we have very groups united or not, here or there. but the bad people too...
we can think "kill them all!!!"... but they can think in same way too.
i know that we are in "ligth path" and they are in "dark path". everyone defends their ways. but everyone is affected... inclued children and wemans too....
the question can be supid but have significate: why the humans think in very diferent paths?
(ok... we can "fight" with a friend, but in next day\hour it's everything ok)
I forgot about the gulf war so I was wrong there. However, it depends on how you define war. Peace mongers would call any conflict a war to bias the argument to thier plight. I don't call an invasion a war. That's why there are two different words, to supply two different meanings. A car is not a truck, although many people use the words incorrectly. The way zaza defines it, nearly any conflict in the world is a war. If you wish to stretch a definition like that, then it dilutes the word and makes it use almost meaningless. I certainly don't call bombing gadafi a war. Most require a war to have two sides hurting each other. The rebels are fighting gadafi, they are at war with them. NATO is helping them. Gadafi is NOT attacking NATO, yet some would say the US is at war with gadafi because it suits them. I am more interested in truth.
The Savage Wars of Peace, sounds interesting. Whose point of view is it?
A lot of it is due to selfishness or ignorance. Some people can not see any other point of view except their own. So they can not understand what the other people are really trying to do. They only understand what they "think" the other people are doing. And if they do not like it, they try to make it their way. The people that mind their own business often get caught in the crossfire.Quote:
Originally Posted by joaquim
if you try search something about the 2 Big Towers, you will see very things.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarMan
i have ear so many things and my friends have seen so many pictures, that normaly aren't showed . that's seems natural ask: what is truth?
Good question. It can be different things to different people. And they will fight and argue over which is right, when in fact, they both can be.Quote:
Originally Posted by joaquim
we are in 21st century. and we know respect everyone and their thot's. if we know respect our own thot's why not them? their brain works like ours... at least i think;)Quote:
Originally Posted by MarMan
i only have fraid of 1 of 2 things:
1 - when we catch a real alien invasion and we die by human ignorance.(to be honest i don't belive that we are alone in these infinite universe;))
or
2 - we die by wars and others bad things by human ignorance.(ok... the Natureza is anotherthing).
note: by die, i mean by extintion or something close.
Some people do not respect others. Others do not respect life. The ones that do you may pass by any day and there are no problems, so you may not notice. It is just the few who do not respect others that attract attention. It could be because they are not well in the head. It could be that they do not know how to be respectful, they could've been taught bad stuff. It is hard to know.Quote:
Originally Posted by joaquim
When someone sees an army kill osama, if they do not know what osama did, they think the army is bad. If they see what osama did, they think he is bad. If they already have prejudice either way, then their decision will be tainted. I am biased against murderers, so I am extra hard on them, maybe too hard, unfair to some of them. Sometimes the truth can be hard to find.
"Sometimes the truth can be hard to find." or deleted or even protected... that's why some truths are very complicated to findQuote:
Originally Posted by MarMan
Good point about Al Qaeda there Honeybee, although you do seem to talk of the US sometimes as a singular entity almost like its a person rather than a country. The US does not (like all countries) need any external factors, its reason for being or its Purpose is the people who inhabit it.Quote:
About Al Qaeda, I believe it's an organization guided more by charisma than any other thing. This charisma was of bin Laden. With him gone, there's no other leader who will motivate and put into motion the entire framework of Al Qaeda (whatever remains of it). So as Shaggy Hiker put it, the people will try to strike back on their own and be annihilated in the process, or the whole framework will slowly disband over a period of time or both. Most likely it will resurface under some other name. There is a third, but quite remote possibility of someone taking bin Laden's place and reviving the outfit.
My question about the US was more to do with the plans for the future. Somewhere I believe the 9/11 and the hunt for Osama provided a reason for the US to be on the offensive, to mobilize its resources, to have a purpose. Now that the purpose is gone, it will have to be replaced with an equally strong one.
Think of two Rival Football teams as an analogy, like Real Madrid & Barcelona. The Barcelona fans know that there team is better because they play better football then Real. The Real Fans know that there team is better because it is the biggest club in the world.Quote:
their brain works like ours... at least i think
Who is right? and even if the Barcelona Fan is right that they play better football will the Madrid Fan agree? Unlikely as football supporters are not always rational. In The End both Fans think they are right.
Now take that Scenario and insert it into years of military invention, and add a sprinkling of religion and bake until it reaches the right temperature.
It's a reasonable question, and one that I was concerned about, at first, but I would say that there really isn't one. I found the book a bit academic in tone, such as you might find from a professor writing for a class, but there wasn't too much about that until the end. I would say that the author was a military historian trying to make the case that we spent a couple centuries learning how to do 'small wars', then shelved all that knowledge over the course of the two HUGE wars, and we really need to dust off all that learning for the modern world.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarMan
Along the way, it discussed several actions that have been largely forgotten by Americans, and several individual characters who shaped the military (mostly the Marine Corps, but also the early Navy and Army). It was also the second book that I have read in the last three months that made reference to an undeclared naval war between the US and France at the end of the 18th century, without describing it at all. That one doesn't make the history books.
That's the problem: Too much of it is only half-baked.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers
So what you guys are saying is we need to use better ovens.
Bin Laden's War Against the US Economy
An interesting perspective that is often overlooked.
Not sure how accurate it is.
There is no such thing as truth. It's always one viewpoint against another. Before labelling someone as violent or distorting the truth, or whatever else you call others, please bear it in mind. Also learn to respect someone else's viewpoint even if you may not like it.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarMan
While you are right about people who don't know what bin Laden did calling his elimination as a bad deed, you must also understand that you need to look at the deeds of the US too to see if it really is such a heroic and great act. After all the US actively fostered bin Laden and Taleban so they could fight the Soviets in Afghanistan. So kindly enlighten yourself a little on the history.
And while you are at it, you may perhaps understand why the US isn't liked by all. It's not because it's the land of the free, but it's because all the 'evil' people right from Saddam to Gaddafi and bin Laden were helped and funded by the US when they were working to achieve the US objectives.
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No wonder, everyone has got closets with skeletons they want to hide.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
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I'd have thought the REALLY obvious war the US was involved in before the War no Terror was the cold one. It might not have been a hot conflict with troops firing at each other on a daily basis but it saw massive military expenditure, propaganda, proxy wars... It also neatly represents the percieved external threat which I believe Honeybee was imlpying the US would now lack.
It also rather neatly explains why America's international reputation has been declining for the last 20 years. Prior to 1989 the US could be portrayed as the good guys protecting the western world from the evil Russians, bent on domination. The rest of the world was ready to forgive the American tanks and missiles that were parked in their back yards because they saw those as tools of protection. Since the USSR collapsed those tanks and missiles have been increasingly seen as tools of occupation because it's hard to see what other purpose they might serve. With nobody to protect the world from, the US, with it's overwhelming military might, gets left looking like a bully.
The US, of course, doesn't see itself as a bully and continues to take considerable (and quite justified) pride in having used that overwhelming military to try and protect others. Despite the way the US is often portrayed I do believe that it's governments have almost always been motivated by pretty benign motives in it's foreign policy. What the US fails to see, though, is that just about every empire in history has been built on the basis of deploying it's troops abroard to defend the interests of itself and others rather than through outright agression. The US doesn't intend to build an empire but it is happening anyway. The rest of the world is better placed to spot that phenomenon than the US is so the resentment grows.
@Honeybee, When someone spreads disinformation and you do not correct them you are just as bad as the speaker of untruths. If you do not know something, that doesn't mean it is not true, it just means you are not as informed as the source. And I rarely label people, so your imagination is making assumptions that do not exist. I don't know why you can not understand simple sentences without adding your own spin on it. Are you running for a political office? There is no supporting evidence to any of your claims. So why would you do such a thing? Perhaps you are having a difficulty understanding English? I can help you if you are having trouble understanding some words, all you need to do is ask.Quote:
Originally Posted by honeybee
I probably know more history than you do. That is a poor judgement to make. Why? Because I do not know what history you know. While it may be true, I only said it to show you what you sound like. Because explaining has no effect, I thought if I showed you how it sounds you may stop making that error. You may not however.Quote:
Originally Posted by honeybee
What you state is completely irrelevant. You are reaching for negativity. Why? Maybe you like to be negative, I do not know. No country is perfect. how much money did your country give for foriegn aid? Not as much as the US. We help more people around the world than any other country. We sent one of the worlds biggest cement pumps to Japan to help them. So whether you realize it or not, the US is one of the most helpful countries in the world. You are just in denial about it or purposfully ignoring the facts. And you are also complaining because we helped osama when his country was being invaded? I think it is a nice thing to help someone who is being invaded. Then he turned traiter, and you blame the US? Your thinking is completely illogical. Again, I think you have some deep down anger that you are repressing so it is emerging in silly ways that make no sense.
It is easy to figure out why the US is not liked by all. First of all, you will not like someone who bombs you, that is to be expected. That is logical, then you have the illogical. It is very similar to how famous or rich people get treated sometimes. Some people do not like the richest/most famous/strongest people. Sometimes it is fear, jealousy or selfishness. Then tend to see only what they want and ignore anything that goes against what they want to believe. No one can be friends with everyone in the world. I accept that. there are reasons to like the US and there are reasons to hate the US. So what? That's life. I'm fine with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by honeybee
Quote:
Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
Well said. I would just like to pint out what NeeSomeAnswers said earlier.
The US is not run by a dictator. It has a president that must answer to a building full of other politicians. Some may have poor intentions, some may have good ones. There is no word that anyone can say that the US wants/does/behaves like because it changes every few years and by whoever wins the vote (not for election, but for legislation).
And every empire/world power goes down eventually. It is only a matter of time before the US crumbles.
I don't think that is the reason, in this case. The time period would have been before the US had a navy, and the war was never declared, nor even acknowledged (the French had helped the US win independence only a couple decades earlier). I would guess that it was an inconsequential set of skirmishes that were caused by something minor and resulted in nothing, so I think it has been forgotten simply because of its staggering irrelevance in the face of world events.Quote:
Originally Posted by honeybee
Maybe I was wrong in this context. I have gone through some 'memoirs' written by people up close to people in power, and what amazes me is the amount of information which has been kept hidden from the general public or even the politicians. Which is probably one of the main reasons people write memoirs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
We have had examples of regulatory bodies trying to change the contents of textbooks which are assigned for school studies. Since at that level the kids would usually not know better, once such knowledge is ingrained in them, it's bound to stay with them for a long long time. The worst way to do this is to record opinions and judgements instead of simply events.
@FD you have captured some of my initial question in your post, wrt the military might. With no cold war, no Russia and now no bin Laden, the military engine might run out of steam. And when you have suddenly realized your objective for many years, you are going to be in a vaccuum. My original question in this thread was and is, what can fill this vaccuum? Will it be some other external objectives such as eliminating all the Al Qaeda and Taleban members, or will it be some internal objective such as restructuring the economy or something else?
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Of course, there's always the option that the vacuum will collapse. No further threat, military expenditure cut right back and funds freed up for social programs like health care for all guaranteed at the point of delivery... Actually scratch that, it's a silly idea. The Americans'd never go for it.:rolleyes:Quote:
what can fill this vaccuum?
The military engine restructuring the economy? That's a good one!!! LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by honeybee
Quote:
Originally Posted by New military
:lol:Quote:
The military engine restructuring the economy? That's a good one!!! LOL
Quote:
Originally Posted by New military
You will create new jobs or be shot!!
To be fair, I don't think HB ever meant that the military would be doing the restructuring. The point he's been trying to make is that a government's position is often strengthened by the problems it faces. If a government has no problems to face it's kind of redundant.
There are many who think that the war on terror was an example of this phenomenon. Some go as far as saying the CIA were responsible for 9/11 but most just believe that the Bush government took advantage of it to ramp up the percieved threat - allowing them to appear 'Strong' in responding to it. Personally I think there's alot of truth in that latter position. I certainly believe that the Blair government was exagerating the hell out of the terrorist threat. The Cameron government has continued in the same vein.
Where HB was coming from with the economy is that, from a government's point of view, a failing economy serves the same purpose. It represents a threat and allows the government to be seen to be doing something.
HB, sorry if I've put words into your mouth here but I think that's basically where you were coming from.
Quote:
Originally Posted by honeybee
Pffft. You guys are SO behind the times. In the US, we have been doing that for decades. The most current one has been the attempts to remove evolution, but there have been others. One of the more notable was that Texas bought so many textbooks that they had an inordinate influence on what went into them. If they decided not to use a certain book, that could drive the publisher out of business, so there was a strong incentive to mold the textbooks to the dictates of the Texas board. I don't think that is the case anymore, but the attacks on evolution are still happening in plenty of states.
yea, I see that too in South Africa - There are so Many things that were left out of the history books, especially the history of our own country. Those books made me feel bad for being white.
well another chance of showing some evidence, any evidence at all, that they actually shot anyone, let alone bin laden, is gone. "We're not releasing any photos to anyone at all". They are supposedly afraid that muslims hold him in the same regard as mohommad, which we all know is unlikely at best. (take this and make what you will of it)
http://www.whitehouse.gov/photos-and...sama-bin-laden
there's the announcement video, if no one has bothered to post it. I find it interesting how muslim-like his pronunciation of pakistan is. (not really)
I think they are right in that action. They would get blasted for either course of action, so the more modest one seems best, to me. Plenty of people would object to some kind of gory "trophy" shot. I guess they could have taken the time to set him up like those old west photos where they propped up dead bandits and photographed them. Kind of an odd custom, and one that has long since gone out of style. Furthermore, everybody understands that pictures can be photoshopped, so they are no longer proof of anything. No matter what you do, if a person wants to believe that the photo was faked, they will do so.
Slightly OT from the current line of discussion, but what the hey ...
Anyone know the particulars regarding the "lost" helicopter?
They came in 2 helicopters, and trashed one that had mechanical problems ...
SO .. how did they leave?
All in the one remaining one?
Did another come in?
Spoo, I believe there must have been more choppers than just two. Maybe four. Some news reports put the size of the strike team to be close to 60. While I don't know if that's true, even a 40-ish team would be claustrophobic in a single chopper. But again, that's just my guess.
FD, you are more or less right. I would equate it to a company that's facing a crisis. All the employees unite to tackle the crisis. The moment the crisis is over, the company must replace it with another equally strong objective where the employees will unite and try and achieve it. The war on terror has been the problem that everyone (almost) in the US has been supporting (if not in action then at least in thought). Maybe that's one of the reasons they finally found and eliminated bin Laden, I don't know.
However the US now finds itself in a position where there's no visible/tangible threat to it anymore. Cold war is long over, bin Laden is gone, Saddam is gone, Gaddafi hasn't yet reached the US Enemy No. 1 status. So there's a vaccuum as far as military actions abroad are concerned. How do you get the people to rally behind something so it can be achieved? What is there to achieve?
Economic problems are a good alternative. However as with most internal problems, everyone perceives such problems to have been caused by others' mistakes. For e.g. the bankers will blame the government, the public will blame the bankers and the government blames something else. So the measures to tackle such problems would also be different, in everyone's mind.
Whereas in case of bin Laden, everyone could agree that he should be eliminated, in case of healthcare reforms, you won't have the same agreement on whether the government should manage healthcare directly or leave it in the hands of private companies. This is just one example.
@Shaggy Hiker, yes, I forgot religion is still very dominant and very much part of the state there. We have been kinda lucky in this respect as the books have so far remained free from religious zealots trying to manipulate history. Sometimes I find it interesting that issues like abortion can be debated much more rationally in India than in the US where religion takes the issue to a different plane.
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