Do I dare post news of a iMac refresh in a Microsoft forum? I do

Haha lol, no flaming me please :p

• The lower end 21.5" iMac costs $1199:
  Core i3 CPU @ 3.06GHz, ATI Radeon HD 4670 256MB, 4GB 1333MHz RAM, 500GB HD.
  
  
• The higher end 21.5" iMac costs $1499:
  Core i3 CPU @ 3.2GHz, 4GB 1333MHz, 1 TB HD, ATI Radeon HD 5670 512MB.
  
  
• The lower end 27" iMac costs $1699:
  Core i3 CPU @ 3.2GHz, 4GB 1333MHz RAM, 1 TB HD, ATI Radeon HD 5670 512MB.
  
• The higher end 27" iMac costs $1999:
  2.8GHz Core i5 CPU, 4GB 1333MHz RAM, 1 TB HD, ATI Radeon HD 5750 1GB.

I'm planning on getting the higher end 27" iMac if the 5750 is a desktop GPU and not a mobile GPU, otherwise I'm not really interested, considering the 4850M I have performs better than it afaik.

Thoughts?

Do I dare call a mactard a mactard?

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Thoughts?

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As Phillip J. Fry said "Like anyone on Earth cares..."

How much can you afford to spend?

We all have our crosses to bear in life...I just don't understand why somone would go out and spend money to add a new one.

http://super-genius.org/images/worst_thread_ever.jpg

Oh, wow, a $2000 system that's slower than a $500 to $600 PC assembled manually. Excluding monitor, but I'm sure you could pick up a nice 50" Plasma for under $1400.

.a nice 50" Plasma for under $1400. .... $1K or less even.

or a nice LCD tv. Plasma ftl

http://www.mendhak.com/extras/macosx_baby.jpg

@mendhak :lol:

Jebus, the pricing...
Do they have unicorns assembling the systems?

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Originally Posted by TheBigB

@mendhak :lol:

Jebus, the pricing...
Do they have unicorns assembling the systems?

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Fact: Apple fans will pay any price to own the latest apple gadget, as long as it has the apple logo on it.

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Originally Posted by mendhak

Do I dare call a mactard a mactard?

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:( not a Mactard

Meh, oh well, I was hoping for some serious replies. I think they're all pretty good value, considering the package, but especially the 27" quad-core model, a screen that size is expensive :p

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Fact: Apple fans will pay any price to own the latest apple gadget, as long as it has the apple logo on it.

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Nope, comparing such a computer to a PC you'll find their pretty much similar, with exception to a better GPU in the PC, but they aren't necessarily that pricy, you pay for the form factor.

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you pay for the form factor.

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Could you translate that please ?

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Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers

Could you translate that please ?

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Think of girls buying phones. They buy phones for looks rather than functionality. Which is why pink phones exist.

Yesterday on RegHardware I noticed that the top product in every IT category was made by Apple.
Then I noticed I had sorted by price (highest to lowest)

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Think of girls buying phones. They buy phones for looks rather than functionality. Which is why pink phones exist.

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Yes i thought it meant some nonsense like that, just wanted confirmation, basically you are paying through the nose for a nice shiny box !

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Nope, comparing such a computer to a PC you'll find their pretty much similar, with exception to a better GPU in the PC, but they aren't necessarily that pricy

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I bet you i could build my own to the same spec significantly cheaper !

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Think of girls buying phones. They buy phones for looks rather than functionality. Which is why pink phones exist.

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Yes i thought it meant some nonsense like that, just wanted confirmation, basically you are paying through the nose for a nice shiny box !

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Nope, comparing such a computer to a PC you'll find their pretty much similar, with exception to a better GPU in the PC, but they aren't necessarily that pricy

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I bet you i could build my own to the same spec significantly cheaper !

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Could you translate that please ?

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You're paying for the form factor, everything combined into one package.

Have a look at some of these:

200xt series all-in-one from HP, it starts at $850 and by the time you've upgraded the GPU to the GT 230M 1GB and bluetooth it's $980. Now, the HP also lacks an IPS display, a bluetooth mouse & keyboard, and the iMac GPU is better, even if you ignore those differences, it isn't really an unreasonable difference between them.

p6570t series desktop, it starts at $550, after I've added the 5450 GPU, $60 speakers, 21.5" screen, prem wifi + bluetooth, it's $870. Although, it lacks an IPS display, wireless mouse & keyboard, in this case a web cam and microphone too, call all of those an extra $100, that's $970.

As you can see, the iMac is $230 more. So, if you wanted it you'd be paying for the form factor, and the OS.

I'm only attempting to disprove the notion that the prices are ridiculous, as you can see, they aren't.

If we are talking about the Core i7 27" iMac @ 2.93GHz, a lot of the value is in the screen, if you don't care about the screen size then you're probably better off getting something else.

HPE-380t series desktop, it starts @ $1099, and by the time I've upgraded the GPU to the GT 220, added prem wifi + bluetooth, and the $60 speakers, it's $1299, with a Core i7 930 @ 2.8GHz, 9GB 1333MHz RAM, 1 TB HD.

The closest equiv. 27" iMac has a Core i7 870 @ 2.93GHz, 8GB 1333MHz RAM, 1 TB HD, and it costs $2399. If you add the $150 21.5" screen to the HPE then you'll end up with a similar machine for like $800 less, but if you add the 27" Apple screen, or the 27" dell screen, you'll be paying the same or $100 more respectively.

You all know the pro's and cons of an all-in-one, less upgradability, less mess, everything in a neat package.

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I bet you i could build my own to the same spec significantly cheaper !

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All right, I'm interested. See what you can build, try the low end 21.5" iMac, and the high end 27" Core i7 iMac.

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Yes i thought it meant some nonsense like that, just wanted confirmation, basically you are paying through the nose for a nice shiny box !

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As I said above, you're not paying through the nose. You might pay a bit more, but it isn't anything ridiculous, particularly if you're after the form factor and/or the OS.

Icyculyr, why do you insist on posting Apple news on a Microsoft based forum, in which you knowingly acknowledge that forum members won't like the news ("Haha lol no flaming me please")? Don't take it as an attack, I'm just curious to know what would you gain from doing so?

At the risk of having a word with the moderator, why don't you discuss this sort of stuff on an Apple based forum? That way you can have a more active and enthusiastic conversation about these things, rather it boiling down to you defending your own personal choice (which is, at the end of the day, your own choice, and it is neither wrong or right).

I personally don't really see the point of bringing this sort of topic discussion over here unless there are more people willing to discuss more positively about Apple (and if you do want to, then you should be allowed to). It seems like you are either trying to get an enthusiastic conversation going (and failing), or just trying to defend your own decision/prove other people wrong. If it is the former, then I can completely understand (anyone remember my threads on TF2? Nope? My point exactly), but you got to remember though Icyculyr that this is a programming forum at heart, with a bit of a Microsoft bias.

Don't take this as an personal attack on you or anyone; I just see someone trying to light a match underwater and getting nowhere, that is all.

But why would anyone really want the iMac form factor? Monitor fails... the entire unit is 'bricked'. Anything else fails and the monitor is useless.

Plus with the recent federal court ruling that breaking DRM while not infringing copyright does not violate DMCA, so it's theoretically legal to purchase OS X, and 'crack' it to run on any hardware the owner(licensee) likes.

The idea of a programmer being unable to assemble a PC seems kind of like hiring a math teacher that requires a calculator, because he's unable to work out problems with pen and paper.

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The higher end 27" iMac costs $1999:
2.8GHz Core i5 CPU, 4GB 1333MHz RAM, 1 TB HD, ATI Radeon HD 5750 1GB.

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HPE-380t series desktop

Genuine Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit
Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-960 quad-core [3.2GHz, 1MB L2 + 8MB shared L3 cache]
FREE UPGRADE! 9GB DDR3-1066MHz SDRAM [5 DIMMs] from 8GB
1.5TB 7200 rpm SATA 3Gb/s hard drive
2GB ATI Radeon HD 5570 [DVI,HDMI, DP, VGA adapter]
LightScribe 16X max. DVD+/-R/RW SuperMulti drive
Integrated Ethernet port, No wireless LAN
15-in-1 memory card reader, 1 USB, 1394, audio
No TV Tuner
Integrated sound
No speakers
HP USB keyboard and optical mouse
Microsoft Office Starter 2010
Norton Internet Security(TM) 2010 - 15 month
HP Home & Home Office Store in-box envelope

Price: $1,909.99
PC instant rebate: –$350.00
Price after savings: 1,559.99

So, do I win something? I just built a more powerful computer, with more RAM, a bigger hard drive, and a slightly speedier graphics setup for 450$ below the base price of your most expensive mac. I also did it using a link you provided as proof that macs are no more expensive then a comparable PC?

I also don't factor in BS like a keyboard and mouse. 95% of use will not be buying a new keyboard and mouse, nor will most of us be buying a new monitor unless it is sorely needed(although the price listed above includes one of the cheaper 21" LCD's I could chop off 60 bucks off my cost there). Besides if I really wanted to spend money on a mouse and a nicer keyboard I wouldn't be buying it from HP (nor Apple).

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All right, I'm interested. See what you can build, try the low end 21.5" iMac, and the high end 27" Core i7 iMac.

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Ok i am a bit too busy today, but when i have got a few mins i will take up that challenge :0)

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Icyculyr, why do you insist on posting Apple news on a Microsoft based forum, in which you knowingly acknowledge that forum members won't like the news ("Haha lol no flaming me please")? Don't take it as an attack, I'm just curious to know what would you gain from doing so?

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I enjoy discussing against a tough crowd. I don't like it when anything turns into insults, and I have been called a fan boy here before, so I was politely asking that they remain out of any discussion.

If no one is interested they don't have to reply, but if they are as I am, they can, its good fun.

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At the risk of having a word with the moderator, why don't you discuss this sort of stuff on an Apple based forum? That way you can have a more active and enthusiastic conversation about these things, rather it boiling down to you defending your own personal choice (which is, at the end of the day, your own choice, and it is neither wrong or right).

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I discuss the same things on many forums, in fact, this is only one of four threads I have regarding the iMacs, what can I say? I enjoy it.

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personally don't really see the point of bringing this sort of topic discussion over here unless there are more people willing to discuss more positively about Apple (and if you do want to, then you should be allowed to). It seems like you are either trying to get an enthusiastic conversation going (and failing), or just trying to defend your own decision/prove other people wrong. If it is the former, then I can completely understand (anyone remember my threads on TF2? Nope? My point exactly), but you got to remember though Icyculyr that this is a programming forum at heart, with a bit of a Microsoft bias.

Don't take this as an personal attack on you or anyone; I just see someone trying to light a match underwater and getting nowhere, that is all.

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Nah I don't take that as an attack at all, nothing insulting whatsoever about your post.

I have several motives, one is that I enjoy discussing technology, all of it, with particular interest for Apple's tech. I also want to disprove the common belief that Mac is ridiculously more expensive, and with each new Mac revision, I see them only as getting more competitive.

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But why would anyone really want the iMac form factor? Monitor fails... the entire unit is 'bricked'. Anything else fails and the monitor is useless.

Plus with the recent federal court ruling that breaking DRM while not infringing copyright does not violate DMCA, so it's theoretically legal to purchase OS X, and 'crack' it to run on any hardware the owner(licensee) likes.

The idea of a programmer being unable to assemble a PC seems kind of like hiring a math teacher that requires a calculator, because he's unable to work out problems with pen and paper.

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That's true, if the screen dies the computer is bricked, but you could always plug in a second display to back up your data or whatever else you needed to do, until you could get it fixed -- considering it's only an additional $169 for AppleCare warranty (3 years) it'd be worth getting that.

And after 3 years? Pay again..... I have my wife and daughter using machines at least 5 years old now since they don't need that much power for what they do....

But again the price just went up $169 ....

No, I think you just like the attention. It's what we refer to as trolling, or close enough anyway.

For the sake of not having one gigantic post, I've split it into two.

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HPE-380t series desktop

Genuine Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit
Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-960 quad-core [3.2GHz, 1MB L2 + 8MB shared L3 cache]
FREE UPGRADE! 9GB DDR3-1066MHz SDRAM [5 DIMMs] from 8GB
1.5TB 7200 rpm SATA 3Gb/s hard drive
2GB ATI Radeon HD 5570 [DVI,HDMI, DP, VGA adapter]
LightScribe 16X max. DVD+/-R/RW SuperMulti drive
Integrated Ethernet port, No wireless LAN
15-in-1 memory card reader, 1 USB, 1394, audio
No TV Tuner
Integrated sound
No speakers
HP USB keyboard and optical mouse
Microsoft Office Starter 2010
Norton Internet Security(TM) 2010 - 15 month
HP Home & Home Office Store in-box envelope

Price: $1,909.99
PC instant rebate: –$350.00
Price after savings: 1,559.99

So, do I win something? I just built a more powerful computer, with more RAM, a bigger hard drive, and a slightly speedier graphics setup for 450$ below the base price of your most expensive mac. I also did it using a link you provided as proof that macs are no more expensive then a comparable PC?

I also don't factor in BS like a keyboard and mouse. 95% of use will not be buying a new keyboard and mouse, nor will most of us be buying a new monitor unless it is sorely needed(although the price listed above includes one of the cheaper 21" LCD's I could chop off 60 bucks off my cost there). Besides if I really wanted to spend money on a mouse and a nicer keyboard I wouldn't be buying it from HP (nor Apple).

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I was comparing things spec for spec, merely proving that for what you're getting, it isn't a rip off (or even much more). As I said, the screen holds a large portion of the cost of the 27" iMac, if you would rather have a smaller screen, by all means do that then.

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Ok i am a bit too busy today, but when i have got a few mins i will take up that challenge :0)

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Cool, look forward to it.

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And after 3 years? Pay again..... I have my wife and daughter using machines at least 5 years old now since they don't need that much power for what they do....

But again the price just went up $169 ....

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The screen shouldn't ever fail. After the screen fails you send it in for repairs and they probably charge you a few hundred to fix it.

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No, I think you just like the attention. It's what we refer to as trolling, or close enough anyway.

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I'm not trolling, or anything of the likes, like I said, I want to disprove the "myth" that Macs are ridiculously more expensive than the PC equiv. and also I enjoy debating/discussing.

I have no idea why you guys are still arguing and trying to reason with him. He's obviously a mac fanboy and nothing you say will change his mind. You're just wasting your time.

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Originally Posted by baja_yu

I have no idea why you guys are still arguing and trying to reason with him. He's obviously a mac fanboy and nothing you say will change his mind. You're just wasting your time.

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No, I'm not. And I don't understand why people keep saying this over and over again? It adds nothing of value to this discussion, if you aren't interested in producing an argument against what I've said, why post?

Because your behavior constitutes or is very close to trolling - deliberately posting counter-community discussions in order to generate negative attention. I don't imagine you post very many "omg I love Window 7 and steve balmer's bald head" threads on apple forums or "Lol, if there's no god how did jesus walk on water??" threads on science forums but that's just it - you could post the same topics in a different way and claim to want constructive discussions on it, when you are actually going to inflame the community. Yet here you are with another thread. Why?

Yes, Mac vs PC debates do happen but they happen on a technology forum such as this, they aren't deliberately created on a continuous basis as you're doing, which is what constitutes trolling.

So the question is to you - if you see that you're inflaming the community (as you are likely aware judging by this thread's title), why do you keep posting this? And if you don't see what you're doing, why don't you realize it?

Shall I go to a Bible forum, post "Hey brothers, here are 20 reasons why Buddhism is better than your religion," wait for the flames, then respond by saying "Uh if you aren't interested in producing an argument against what I've said, why post?". No, I won't do that because you need to learn to respect the community regardless of their beliefs. And that's one thing I don't believe for a moment you have - any respect for the people here - I say this because the only other alternative is that you lack common sense or are deliberately being obtuse, but I don't believe that you lack common sense, I believe you are actually quite intelligent (which is why you are here).

You can of course easily learn how to work your thoughts into any discussion in a respectful way rather than an in-your-face approach. My favorite... this. Look at wossname's posts. He has scathing sarcasm and at the same time he isn't being offensive. I wish I were like wossname.

it doesnt bother me that apples are overpriced. sometimes its way overpriced and somethings it can be fairly reasonably priced. The price isnt what make apple suck. Noone needs you to be the all high and mighty apple fanboy who will convince this mostly MS community that apples are great.

Thats exactly the problem right there. You think apple are so great that you want to make sure everyones opinion is the same as yours, and if they arent, you will just post response after response that doesn't prove anything to anyone except you and other apple fanboys.

Apple Sucks. Get over it. Move on. You aren't convincing anyone. You are actually doing the opposite in that you are proving how apple fanboys are the most annoying and ridiculous type of fanboy on the planet. Just because your a self proclaimed "not an apple fanboy" does not mean you are one. I'm not a human. There, I said it. Does that mean its true? No.

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Do I dare post news of a iMac refresh in a Microsoft forum? I do

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You call that a dare???? :D

Daring is answering queries in VBF.
Daring is ensuring that you help the other members by offering them good solutions, keeping in mind that you might have to face ridicule by other people...
Daring is being ready for all the criticism (not sarcasm) that you might get when you post a solution
Daring is preempting the problem and offering a good solution
Daring is... aw come on... Like Mendhak said, "you are actually quite intelligent" so I hope you get the message...

You can play this game all night :afrog:

http://www.amazingsuperpowers.com/co...th-or-Dare.png

@Icyculyr, you may be a Mac, but you don't seem hip. If nothing on that page reminds you of your Macness, then you're delusional or trolling.

@mendhak, your description seems to basically call anyone who's passionate about anything even slightly unorthodox a troll. He does seem genuinely passionate about Macs, and doesn't seem to go about spreading his Mac love in a rude manner. Annoying? Perhaps. But trolling? I think not. Just a case of Win fanboys hating on Mac fanboy(s).

I wouldn't call this a Windows only forum. Office for Mac has long had VBS, and .NET is multi-platform due to Microsft's deal with Novell to work on Mono.

Windows/Microsoft is losing market share on all fronts, so it's foreseeable that this site will continue to attract non-Windows users.

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Originally Posted by FireXtol

@Icyculyr, you may be a Mac, but you don't seem hip. If nothing on that page reminds you of your Macness, then you're delusional or trolling.

@mendhak, your description seems to basically call anyone who's passionate about anything even slightly unorthodox a troll. He does seem genuinely passionate about Macs, and doesn't seem to go about spreading his Mac love in a rude manner. Annoying? Perhaps. But trolling? I think not. Just a case of Win fanboys hating on Mac fanboy(s).

I wouldn't call this a Windows only forum. Office for Mac has long had VBS, and .NET is multi-platform due to Microsft's deal with Novell to work on Mono.

Windows/Microsoft is losing market share on all fronts, so it's foreseeable that this site will continue to attract non-Windows users.

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Your interpretation of my description is incomplete and incorrect. Read it again.

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Originally Posted by mendhak

Your interpretation of my description is incomplete and incorrect. Read it again.

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Not worth the time. I have better things to do than reread rude comments that are best described as trolling.

Perhaps you should reread your comments and deliberate over proper decorum for a moderator?

Have a nice day.

If you choose to interpret my post in a different way, fair enough, can't be helped, that's your comprehension. I'll re-explain anyway, since I should (and didn't mean for it to appear rude, but this is the nature of text based conversations on the Internet).

Being passionate about something is fine, but there's always the matter of context. Context and intent is important. So you can express your passion in different ways, the nature and intent of this thread is not one of them. The title itself says a lot. The OP is likely aware of the setting and context of this forum - it has nothing to do with who's using what (we have lintards, wintards and mactards), it's about repeated intent. Get it now?

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You call that a dare????

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IT was a JOKE. FYI creepy image lol

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it doesnt bother me that apples are overpriced. sometimes its way overpriced and somethings it can be fairly reasonably priced. The price isnt what make apple suck. Noone needs you to be the all high and mighty apple fanboy who will convince this mostly MS community that apples are great.

Thats exactly the problem right there. You think apple are so great that you want to make sure everyones opinion is the same as yours, and if they arent, you will just post response after response that doesn't prove anything to anyone except you and other apple fanboys.

Apple Sucks. Get over it. Move on. You aren't convincing anyone. You are actually doing the opposite in that you are proving how apple fanboys are the most annoying and ridiculous type of fanboy on the planet. Just because your a self proclaimed "not an apple fanboy" does not mean you are one. I'm not a human. There, I said it. Does that mean its true? No.

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I'm not a fan boy. And, if you read my posts, I'm not trying to convince you they're the best, only that the prices aren't ridiculous.

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@Icyculyr, you may be a Mac, but you don't seem hip. If nothing on that page reminds you of your Macness, then you're delusional or trolling.

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I don't seem hip? Meh, yes I am!

I'm neither delusional or trolling, but I don't know what you mean "if nothing on that page reminds you of your Macness"...?

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Context and intent is important. So you can express your passion in different ways, the nature and intent of this thread is not one of them. The title itself says a lot. The OP is likely aware of the setting and context of this forum - it has nothing to do with who's using what (we have lintards, wintards and mactards), it's about repeated intent. Get it now?

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The nature and intent of this thread was to see what people thought of the new iMacs.

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Originally Posted by Rules?

You will not behave in an abusive and/or hateful manner, and will not harass, threaten, nor attack anyone.

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I may be mistaken. I don't think calling people any kind of tard could be considered as anything besides rude. It seems to me that people who would appreciate banal name calling would be trolls. You insensitive clod!

I've split this into two posts for size.

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Because your behavior constitutes or is very close to trolling - deliberately posting counter-community discussions in order to generate negative attention.

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I'm not trolling or anything of the likes. I'm not "deliberately posting counter-community discussions in order to generate negative attention", all I said initially was "What do you guys think"? In reply to comments saying they are ridiculously overpriced, I said that they aren't, and provided evidence to support that.

I've never said anything to intentionally provoke a negative response, like "Macs are better than PCs", or anything of the likes.

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I don't imagine you post very many "omg I love Window 7 and steve balmer's bald head" threads on apple forums or "Lol, if there's no god how did jesus walk on water??" threads on science forums but that's just it - you could post the same topics in a different way and claim to want constructive discussions on it, when you are actually going to inflame the community. Yet here you are with another thread. Why?

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Of course I don't, but I also see no need to. Windows 7 is an OS, it has a lot to do with preference, I'm not going to tell someone it's the best, or that it's the worst, unless I'm speaking of experience with it.

Macs are often, for lack of better word, discriminated against, many (particularly PC users) see them as overpriced machines. Well, I dislike that, they aren't really much more expensive, at least in some lines, so I enjoy trying to provide an argument that shows that they are not overpriced, but in fact similar, or at least fairly priced for what you're getting.

I also believe that Apple is becoming a lot more competitive with their pricing with each new refresh, so when the new refreshes come I post the prices & specs and see what people say.

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Yes, Mac vs PC debates do happen but they happen on a technology forum such as this, they aren't deliberately created on a continuous basis as you're doing, which is what constitutes trolling.

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Not so, I think I made one thread defending the iPhone 4 antenna, aside from that this the only one that I remember, I wouldn't calling that on a continuous basis, and again, I'm not trolling.

Trolling is when someone says something to intentionally provoke a harsh or negative response, I.E going into a forum and posting a one liner "PCs suck", "Windows suck", or throwing baiting lines out, always with no evidence supporting their claim, I don't do that.

I'm also not going to blindly argue if you can prove the iMac is overpriced. But, as my previous posts suggest, I'm merely trying to prove that on a part by part basis that the iMac series isn't really overpriced, in fact they a similarly or competitively priced.

This doesn't mean you couldn't forgo the 27" screen in your build and get a cheaper one with a better system, and I never said that you couldn't.

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Shall I go to a Bible forum, post "Hey brothers, here are 20 reasons why Buddhism is better than your religion," wait for the flames, then respond by saying "Uh if you aren't interested in producing an argument against what I've said, why post?". No, I won't do that because you need to learn to respect the community regardless of their beliefs. And that's one thing I don't believe for a moment you have - any respect for the people here - I say this because the only other alternative is that you lack common sense or are deliberately being obtuse, but I don't believe that you lack common sense, I believe you are actually quite intelligent (which is why you are here).

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Firstly, I do believe I respect the community. I've never bashed Windows or anything of the likes, and in fact have received tens of thousands of replies in the VB.NET forum helping me with learning and whatever coding issues I'm dealing with.
I initially only asked everyones thoughts, and true, I do have the tendency to respond to any comment along the lines of "Macs are overpriced" with "No they're not", I provide proof.

Just because I post about Macs in a primarily Windows based forum doesn't mean I don't respect the community, if you've probably noticed I'm never insulting (at least I try not to be).

Would not being rude and insulting better provoke you all to reply in such a negative way? I'm always polite, never sarcastic, never insulting, I don't believe those characteristics constitute a troll.
(PS, thank you for the compliment lol)

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You can of course easily learn how to work your thoughts into any discussion in a respectful way rather than an in-your-face approach. My favorite... this. Look at wossname's posts. He has scathing sarcasm and at the same time he isn't being offensive. I wish I were like wossname.

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They aren't intended to be an in-your-face approach, this should just be as simple as it is. I posted iMac pricing, people comment, it doesn't seem to have gone that way.

Tell me this though, am I so wrong for posting proof against someones argument that a Mac is overpriced? I don't like it, I don't like that many believe this, when it really isn't true.

My defending of products isn't just for Apple, if someone said Macs have better parts therefore are better than PCs, I'd say they don't, I wouldn't just leave it because they favour the Mac.

TLDR; I'd like for this thread to kind of go on topic. If anyone still continues to say they are overpriced, despite my postings indicating they are similarly or fairly priced for what you're getting, then I will refrain from replying to that post/part of the post.

Arguing with someone about the way they perceive you will only ever reinforce their perceptions.

The tooth fairy doesn't exist.

Macs are overpriced.

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Arguing with someone about the way they perceive you will only ever reinforce their perceptions.

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What can I say? I'm sensitive, when someone says something it bothers me, denying it makes me feel better, which is why I reply to every comment calling me a fan boy or whatever else, saying that I'm not, etc.

So, it's a bit of a catch 22 for me then lol? Its life, it'll probably change over time and I'll care less of what others say or think of me.

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The tooth fairy doesn't exist.

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:eek::eek::eek:

Also, I might add, the 5750 in the 27" iMac is actually a 5850M 1GB, which is a good thing, considering the 5750M (Apple only uses mobile GPUs in their iMacs) is significantly worse than the previous generation 4850M.

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Macs are often, for lack of better word, discriminated against, many (particularly PC users) see them as overpriced machines. Well, I dislike that, they aren't really much more expensive, at least in some lines, so I enjoy trying to provide an argument that shows that they are not overpriced, but in fact similar, or at least fairly priced for what you're getting.

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I develop user interfaces for a living so my main gripe with Apple products comes from that perspective.

When you buy a Mac, what you get is a very nice looking machine (lots of money spent on aesthetics and packaging... nice for a car, but worthwhile for a computer?) with an awful user interface. The two devices which you spend most of your time using to interact with the computer — the keyboard and mouse — are of dreadful design and construction. Never mind how many buttons the mouse has; how are you supposed to hold it in your hand? How are you supposed to type seriously on a keyboard which has almost no tactile feedback? And the operating system itself, for all its Unix roots, is no more stable than an up-to-date Windows, and less stable (and less powerful, and slower) than a good Linux distribution.

Even if the hardware was of equivalent price to an equivalently specified custom PC (which is not the case here) the usability level is inferior. Hence: overpriced.

My opinion is that Apple don't seem to be capable of making good user interfaces, just nice-looking ones.

An example: the iPhone. I own a 3G model. Originally I bought it to develop mobile apps, but then I realised that every man and his iMac-using dog had had the same idea long before me.

The phone looks nice. It sits comfortably in the palm of my hand and slides nicely into (and out of, usually at the most inconvenient moments) my pocket. The home screen with all its icons is okay, but reminds me a bit of very early desktop operating systems. The phone is clearly app-oriented rather than task- or data-oriented, which seems to indicate a design approached from the perspective of a software developer rather than an end-user. (OSX's dock is the same, and even more confusing because it conflates data and apps.) The indicators for messages, emails, and missed phone calls are little numbers in red circles which annotate the appropriate app icons, but don't really convey any useful information. To actually find out what they represent I need to open the app in question — and if multiple indicators are showing, I need to navigate through each app in turn. (In the case of the Mail app I need to manually find where new emails are because it doesn't take me to the right inbox even if only one inbox has unread mail.) The home screen also doesn't have any way of showing upcoming appointments from the calendar — a basic feature that has existed on mobile phones since they became personal organisers as well as communication tools — so to get a "to-do" list I have to open the calendar app. For this reason I barely use the calendar and only find it useful to set reminder alerts.

Why can't the home screen tell me what I want to know rather than always showing me apps I already know about?

The iPhone OS is also very slow. I don't know why it is so slow, because it doesn't seem to do very much, and when it does, it frequently crashes. Even with Wi-fi and Bluetooth disabled, the UI is less responsive than a basic 3G Nokia phone which I can buy for $50 from Target. For example, the Settings app appears to open straight away but it takes between 2-10 seconds for the screen to populate with controls. This is exaggerated when the battery is low, which wouldn't be a problem except that the battery life is totally crap.
On most occasions I have trouble unlocking the phone using the sliding control: it just bounces straight back from the right-hand side to the left. And far worse: approximately 1 out of 5 times when I receive a call while the phone is locked, the interface completely freezes so I am unable to take the call. This is unacceptable for what was a $1000 state-of-the-art smartphone.

I could go on but these complaints represent what I think most people find with Apple products. They are sold not only on aesthetics but on usability, but in actual fact are very difficult and frustrating to use on a daily basis. They are often advocated to be easier to use for people with no prior experience with other platforms, but I have not seen any evidence to support this assertion. I have not seen any problems experienced by non-technical Windows users that could be solved by instead using a Mac.

This is why your Apple and Mac news is met with scorn at a forum such as this. We are a community of software developers and advanced technology consumers, who understand the purpose of technology and how it should work.

Let me give you a definitive argument as to why Macs are overpriced.

Take for example the new iMacs that just came out. Check the price. Now, do you remember the prices of the old models? If no, look at the prices now. They are exactly the same. There's no price correction with Apple. Do you really think that the components in that iMac cost the same today, and a year from now, or how much they cost a year ago. As new CPUs come out, new and bigger hard drives, the prices of the current ones go down, yet, Apple keeps selling them at the same price as when they first rolled out the model. That's keeping the price artifficailly up, and is basically overpricing.

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When you buy a Mac, what you get is a very nice looking machine (lots of money spent on aesthetics and packaging... nice for a car, but worthwhile for a computer?) with an awful user interface.

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Out of curiosity when was the last time you used a Mac? Which version of the OS was it?

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The two devices which you spend most of your time using to interact with the computer — the keyboard and mouse — are of dreadful design and construction. Never mind how many buttons the mouse has; how are you supposed to hold it in your hand? How are you supposed to type seriously on a keyboard which has almost no tactile feedback?

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Are you referring to the Apple wireless keyboard (with flat keys) and the Magic mouse?

Ever since I used Apple's keyboard (with the flat keys), I'm not interested in anything else, I used to have this keyboard with an inch to half an inch thick keys, I can touch type on it quite fast too, ~90 WPM.

I didn't overly like the Mighty Mouse (although I used one), but I do like the Magic Mouse, it was a little new / uncomfortable for about a week, after that I've become used to it.

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Even if the hardware was of equivalent price to an equivalently specified custom PC (which is not the case here) the usability level is inferior. Hence: overpriced.

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By usability I assume you are referring to the UI (OS) and the keyboard & mouse?

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The indicators for messages, emails, and missed phone calls are little numbers in red circles which annotate the appropriate app icons, but don't really convey any useful information. To actually find out what they represent I need to open the app in question — and if multiple indicators are showing, I need to navigate through each app in turn. (In the case of the Mail app I need to manually find where new emails are because it doesn't take me to the right inbox even if only one inbox has unread mail.)

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Thats true, but most of them you learn quickly. If you've got a 5 over your phone app it means you've got 5 missed calls, on the messages app it means you've got 5 new texts, etc. In iOS 4 mail has a universal inbox now, I use it very often. I never liked checking my mail boxes individually.

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The iPhone OS is also very slow. I don't know why it is so slow, because it doesn't seem to do very much, and when it does, it frequently crashes. Even with Wi-fi and Bluetooth disabled, the UI is less responsive than a basic 3G Nokia phone which I can buy for $50 from Target. For example, the Settings app appears to open straight away but it takes between 2-10 seconds for the screen to populate with controls. This is exaggerated when the battery is low, which wouldn't be a problem except that the battery life is totally crap.
On most occasions I have trouble unlocking the phone using the sliding control: it just bounces straight back from the right-hand side to the left. And far worse: approximately 1 out of 5 times when I receive a call while the phone is locked, the interface completely freezes so I am unable to take the call. This is unacceptable for what was a $1000 state-of-the-art smartphone.

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Eek... was this with iOS 3 or 2? I'd say it's more the iPhone than the OS, the iPhone 3G only had a 400MHz CPU and 128MB's of RAM. I remember hearing that the iPhone 3G was really fast with iOS 2, but it got a bit sluggish with iOS 3.

Did you end up taking it back? Or trying to get them to replace it?

I used a 3G for a while until I got my 3GS, I had a similar experience, battery life wasn't great (in the latter days), I did find it quite sluggish, but not as bad as yours. Never had the UI lock up when a call comes in, that's pretty bad...

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I could go on but these complaints represent what I think most people find with Apple products. They are sold not only on aesthetics but on usability, but in actual fact are very difficult and frustrating to use on a daily basis. They are often advocated to be easier to use for people with no prior experience with other platforms, but I have not seen any evidence to support this assertion. I have not seen any problems experienced by non-technical Windows users that could be solved by instead using a Mac.

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I feel the opposite :p

Albeit, I do love Windows 7, it is by far the best version of Windows so far, I would much rather OSX as my main OS though. I much prefer the OSX UI, and I've become accustom to Expose and Spaces, Quick Look, and many other things.

I much prefer Windows 7 over 10.4 (Tiger) though.

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Let me give you a definitive argument as to why Macs are overpriced.

Take for example the new iMacs that just came out. Check the price. Now, do you remember the prices of the old models? If no, look at the prices now. They are exactly the same. There's no price correction with Apple. Do you really think that the components in that iMac cost the same today, and a year from now, or how much they cost a year ago. As new CPUs come out, new and bigger hard drives, the prices of the current ones go down, yet, Apple keeps selling them at the same price as when they first rolled out the model. That's keeping the price artifficailly up, and is basically overpricing.

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Sure, thats true. Apple's products are at their best value within five to six months, and their worst towards the beginning of a new update.

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I didn't overly like the Mighty Mouse (although I used one), but I do like the Magic Mouse, it was a little new / uncomfortable for about a week, after that I've become used to it.

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Well I could get used to sleeping on a bed of nails, but that doesn't make it good. I've got the wireless kbd and magic mouse on the iMac, and a Logitech wireless Desktop Wave Pro combo on the desktop, and they can't compare in terms of ergonomics and prolonged use. It's like comparing a chariot to a limousine.

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Originally Posted by baja_yu

Well I could get used to sleeping on a bed of nails, but that doesn't make it good. I've got the wireless kbd and magic mouse on the iMac, and a Logitech wireless Desktop Wave Pro combo on the desktop, and they can't compare in terms of ergonomics and prolonged use. It's like comparing a chariot to a limousine.

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Erm, I couldn't lol. I don't know whether using the Magic Mouse is bad for my hand or not, but I've noticed no difference. It's quite comfortable now that I'm used to it. I've never used much else really, other than my dads razor, but I prefer the MM.

Only downside from my perspective is not being able to click multiple buttons at the same time, I.E, start dragging a file and then activating Expose to find the window I'm dragging it into, or in FPS games where you hold right click to bring up the scope and left click to fire, also dual wielding weapons.

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Originally Posted by Icyculyr

Out of curiosity when was the last time you used a Mac? Which version of the OS was it?

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Either Tiger or Leopard. Whichever is older.

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Are you referring to the Apple wireless keyboard (with flat keys) and the Magic mouse?

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Yes, that flat keyboard, and the oval-shaped flattish mouse with the dinky little scroll wheel and no button — I'm not sure if it has a name. (Edit: It was the Mighty Mouse!) After five minutes of pushing it around and "clicking" it I felt like throwing it through the window. The keyboard was equally awkward to use.

At home I use a Logitech G5 mouse which fits my hand comfortably and has buttons placed more or less where my fingers are. That's sensible design. I'm not sure what the design philosophy is behind the Mac keyboards and mice, or if there even is one beyond "make it look avant-garde".

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Thats true, but most of them you learn quickly. If you've got a 5 over your phone app it means you've got 5 missed calls, on the messages app it means you've got 5 new texts, etc.

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Yes, I know how it works. It's very simple, which is why I said it feels like an interface designed by a software developer. Proper user interfaces take much more development effort than storing a few notification counters.

Here is an example of a better smartphone home screen:
http://www.tracyandmatt.co.uk/blogs/...vertical_2.jpg
It's a screenshot from the HTC Touch Pro2 which I think runs Windows Mobile 6 with some sort of custom shell.
This screen has clearly had at least some thought put into its design. The clock is huge, which is valuable because people frequently tend to pull their phone out of their pocket to look at the time and the large font minimises the effort required to do this. The date is much smaller because it is less often needed. Below that you can see several upcoming appointments, which is very handy and encourages people to use the calendar function of the phone. Finally you have large buttons to open frequently-used functions, as with the bottom row of the iPhone home screen.

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Eek... was this with iOS 3 or 2? [...] Did you end up taking it back? Or trying to get them to replace it?

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3. I bought it in "as-new" condition from eBay. I think it had a 12-month warranty which would have expired now, plus it has water damage.

Man, I'd almost buy a mighty mouse if it wasn't shaped like a oblong hockey puck. That 360 degree ball is awesome. Would be perfect for Arkanoid/breakout/clones.

I wish other mice(more ergonomic) had that feature.

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or if there even is one beyond "make it look avant-garde".

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Nope. That's it. But the Magic mouse is even more avant-garde and even less ergonomic. That thing is flat as a pancake.

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Originally Posted by Icyculyr

I've never used much else really, other than my dads razor

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http://www.vbforums.com/

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Either Tiger or Leopard. Whichever is older.

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That'd be Leopard then.

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Yes, that flat keyboard, and the oval-shaped flattish mouse with the dinky little scroll wheel and no button — I'm not sure if it has a name. (Edit: It was the Mighty Mouse!) After five minutes of pushing it around and "clicking" it I felt like throwing it through the window. The keyboard was equally awkward to use.

At home I use a Logitech G5 mouse which fits my hand comfortably and has buttons placed more or less where my fingers are. That's sensible design. I'm not sure what the design philosophy is behind the Mac keyboards and mice, or if there even is one beyond "make it look avant-garde".

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Yeah I thought so, I don't overly like the Mighty Mouse, I do the Magic Mouse though, not many multi-touch mouses around (afaik).
I used to have s Logitech mouse and keyboard with my PC, I don't remember what model it was.

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Yes, I know how it works. It's very simple, which is why I said it feels like an interface designed by a software developer. Proper user interfaces take much more development effort than storing a few notification counters.

Here is an example of a better smartphone home screen:
http://www.tracyandmatt.co.uk/blogs/...vertical_2.jpg
It's a screenshot from the HTC Touch Pro2 which I think runs Windows Mobile 6 with some sort of custom shell.
This screen has clearly had at least some thought put into its design. The clock is huge, which is valuable because people frequently tend to pull their phone out of their pocket to look at the time and the large font minimises the effort required to do this. The date is much smaller because it is less often needed. Below that you can see several upcoming appointments, which is very handy and encourages people to use the calendar function of the phone. Finally you have large buttons to open frequently-used functions, as with the bottom row of the iPhone home screen.

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I do like how the Calendars are shown, but personally wouldn't trade it for app view the iPhone uses. The time is small on the iPhone but it doesn't bother me, if I'm just checking that it's huge on the lock screen, I usually check the Calendar icon for the date.

I've seen some pretty awesome jail broken photos, the dock was similar to that Windows Mobile dock, there was an App folder on the screen to get to your apps, etc.

Check it out:
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/204/img0096t.png
http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/9671/img0154.png
Down to the little Android logo for the battery meter lol

That's one of the themes in Winterboard, I've been considering jail breaking, but I might only after I get the iPhone 4.

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3. I bought it in "as-new" condition from eBay. I think it had a 12-month warranty which would have expired now, plus it has water damage.

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Oh ok, each new OS revision slows down the older phones a little bit more each time. iOS 4 has slowed it down even more. The 3GS is very snappy though, even with 4.

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Man, I'd almost buy a mighty mouse if it wasn't shaped like a oblong hockey puck. That 360 degree ball is awesome. Would be perfect for Arkanoid/breakout/clones.

I wish other mice(more ergonomic) had that feature.

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Magic Mouse is better than the Mighty Mouse if you can get used to it, it has no scroll ball. You just move your finger in the direction you want to scroll.

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Oh ok, each new OS revision slows down the older phones a little bit more each time. iOS 4 has slowed it down even more.

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That's daft. Newer firmware should be better, not worse.
A mobile device isn't a PC that can be upgraded part by part. It is what it is. It should be straightforward to improve iOS performance, given that there are only 4 or 5 different models it has to run on — in contrast to Android or Windows Mobile, which might be run on potentially anything.

If anything, the more you post, the more convinced I am that Apple products are overpriced garbage. :)

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Originally Posted by penagate

...
If anything, the more you post, the more convinced I am that Apple products are overpriced garbage. :)

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I am already. I was srsly planning to buy iPhone and/or maybe a macbook if not an iPhone.

Now I will never. :afrog:

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That's daft. Newer firmware should be better, not worse.
A mobile device isn't a PC that can be upgraded part by part. It is what it is. It should be straightforward to improve iOS performance, given that there are only 4 or 5 different models it has to run on — in contrast to Android or Windows Mobile, which might be run on potentially anything.

If anything, the more you post, the more convinced I am that Apple products are overpriced garbage.

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It is better, and a little slower. You can't expect an update that brings many new features to run faster or the same as it did on the prior OS update, the benefit of upgrading far outweighs the negative. And, when I say negative, I'm not referring to the issues you were having.

Take Android 3 for example, it requires a 1GHz CPU, my point being that big updates require more power. I'm not saying that going from iOS 2 to 3 is anywhere near that big of an updates, just trying to illustrate my point, that these type of updates can't offer new functionality and improve performance, a minor slow down shouldn't be unexpected, if you experience more than a minor slow down, then you should do something about it.

Did you experience these problems on your 3G immediately or over time?

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Originally Posted by Icyculyr

It is better, and a little slower. You can't expect an update that brings many new features to run faster or the same as it did on the prior OS update

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Why not? When I add functionality to my software, it runs (in general) at least as fast as it did before. The only exceptions are when the new functionality is particularly complex. In those cases, the existing features don't get slower.


Edit: In other words, my software is slow all of the time! Ha ha ha.

penagate's software uses bullet-time effects in execution.

I once tested a UI that penagate gave me. I clicked on a button and my monitor exploded and turned into a giant punchbowl full of Mountain Dew and I bathed in it for 3 days it was the best button ever.

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...and I bathed in it...

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Your monitor is either very big, or you are very small. Which is it?

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Your monitor is either very big, or you are very small. Which is it?

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Well he is a Frog even if it's of the mutant three-eyed variety, so i would say small !

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Originally Posted by penagate

Edit: In other words, my software is slow all of the time! Ha ha ha.

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I use the "fast=true" setting on operating systems that increases the speed of the software. :p