http://mosspuppet.com/2010/01/24/its...-apple-tablet/
Gary
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The i-pad has been released today morning.
I'm just waiting for the pricing ... naturally they are hyping it up, holding the shocker for the very end.
-tg
Wait the next thins up will be the I-pee
iPad looks pretty disappointing to me. I thought they were going to make it a computer... instead it's a giant iPod Touch, awesome!
Wow. So close...Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryMazzone
http://www.mactard.co.uk/iblog//iblo...06/macmod4.jpg
I predict $ 929 for the first gen.Quote:
Originally Posted by techgnome
Not quite:
Wi-Fi-only iPad prices: $499 (16GB), $599 (32GB), $699 (64GB)
Add $130 for 3G... so the top end is $829...
-tg
Not too bad, but still can't compete with Netbook prices. I reserve judgement of whether this is a viable tool until the next mobile OS release which will probably not be shown until Apple's developer conference. This thing REALLY needs multi tasking. More so than the iPhone/iPod Touch.Quote:
Originally Posted by techgnome
As is currently this does possibly put a dent in Kindle and Nook sales and may do well for no techies who just want a simple cheap mobile system.
I would say if some hardware vendors can get a nice device together to run Windows 7 with its multitouch and other nice features (like it being a real computer OS) then it would service the "tablet" market much better than this device.
Who really wants to lug around a giant iphone.. we were going in the direction of making things smaller for a while, but now it looks like apple is trying to take all their small device success and just create them in bigger form factor.
It will service the techie tablet market. But just sticking Windows 7 on a tablet will not do anything for the consumer market which is where Apples focus is here.Quote:
Originally Posted by kleinma
If I'm to be completely honest, I was intrigued about what Apple's idea of a tablet PC was and if it would be better than Microsoft's offering. So when I found out it was an enlarged version of the iPhone with no multi-tasking, no Flash (for at least playing flash games off the internet) and not the true Mac OS X software on it, I was disappointed immediately.
Even as a "cheap" gimmick, it even lacks the bloody camera. My Eee PC 1000HE was £300 and still has more functionality than the iPad (which has a horrible name).
I hadn't heard of this until today, but Microsoft's Courier looks far more interesting to me than the iPad. It's still not a "real computer OS," but the concept is practical and appealing.Quote:
Originally Posted by kleinma
As a computer, I agree. But looking at this as a consumer appliance, this is actually a fairly nice little device. This is the stuff Bill Gates was talking about years ago. As far as multi tasking, I have a very strong suspicion it will come in the next major point release of the iPhone OS.Quote:
Originally Posted by kregg
I so hope we get what we see in those videos. Courier looks tasty. And BTW it would be a 'real OS'(probably Win7) just like the iPhone OS is a 'real OS'. Do not confuse visuals with operating system.Quote:
I hadn't heard of this until today, but Microsoft's Courier looks far more interesting to me than the iPad. It's still not a "real computer OS," but the concept is practical and appealing.
Sometimes words are not used literally (hence the quotes). I was not (nor do I think kleinma was) unaware that the iPhone OS is indeed a real OS. But it can't do the things I like to see in my "real OS" - install what I want (not just what is granted to me from the appstore), true customization, etc.Quote:
Do not confuse visuals with operating system.
Fair enough. :thumb:Quote:
Originally Posted by SambaNeko
Apple have moved into the female hygiene product market :confused: So you use this once a month, on a bright side it's probably scented.
On the ipod touch, I can't go into safari, download a word document, and edit it. If the ipad also can't do this, it is worthless.
I want a file system where I can download, create, and store files in. The ipod doesn't have that. The ipad probably doesn't either.
The new SDK has opened APIs for accessing a shared storage area so it just might.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrow_Raider
Well, the iWorks suite of apps is available and was running during the demo. So there's got to be some kind of file storage system.
-tg
You stole my line. :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryMazzone
Even as a consumer appliance it is a joke. Lets look at how it can be perceived by a customer:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cander
As an eBook reading device: It supports books, but what is the price of these books, and how big is the library of books for the device? I'd be interested in the Kindle if only for one reason - it is backed by Amazon, one of the largest online booksellers. I am bound to find a book that I like, a book that I never got round to reading, and/or the latest book release by any publisher.
As an internet browsing device: Again, it does the job well considering that the Safari app on the device is a straight port of the iPhone, but redone for the big screen (i.e. unique features of Safari found in Mac OS X will probably not be found in here like plugin support etc). But you have to consider this (for the US at least): If you can live with WiFi only, that is fine, but WiFi isn't everywhere, so 3G would be ideal. But that means having another monthy fee just for the privilege of having internet access. And in the US, the plan is with AT&T, who are currently having problems dealing with the 3G data coming from iPhone 3G(S) alone, let alone the iPad. If you have an iPhone or a smartphone that is capable with internet access and it currently has done the job for you so far, then you are better off sticking with a device that has internet and phone capabillities.
As a video playing device: It is nice that there is a feature to actually good use of the large screen, but 16GB is too small, especially when it comes to videos. Apple do provide more space, but then the price enters the really uncomfortable range for using the device for playing videos or watching HD films. Again, if you have an iPhone, this does the job for you, albeit in eye-strain-o-vision.
As a game console: I thought the idea of playing on the iPhone was unappealing due to lack of hardware buttons, but I can understand for some people that they may like the iPhone's game offerings. However, I can't say the same for a device that is 10". The games that are out for the thing are probably iPhone based apps, which means it probably isn't optimised for the thing. And anyways, lets look at the current gaming devices that will be out on the market:
PSP 3000: $170
PSP Go: $242
DS Lite: $130
DSi: $170
iPod Touch (8GB version): $184
iPhone 3G (8GB, with $30/month data plan): $99
iPad (Wifi only): $500.
Does that look appealing? Especially given the iPod Touch basically does everything the iPad does and looks better.
For working: If you are fine with working on a virtual keyboard, then you'll probably like the idea of the iPad. The problem is that it is basically a crippled version of the Mac OS X version, which if it were me, it would get to me a couple of months down the line. Not only that, but I tend to open up multiple documents at a time - and since this thing does not support multi-tasking (and I seriously doubt they will bring that in the next OS release. A feature like that I presume would take a whole change of the core OS, which could mean the apps from the App Store could no longer be backwards compatible - which is a big killer for the iPhone and its millions of apps), the lack of multi-tasking means I can't view my PDFs with my word documents as well as having my university's moodle site open to check what my lecturer has said about a certain question. Even still, the lack of physical keyboard makes the iWork a DOA app for me (I use the control. I appreciate not everyone works like this and/or can work absolutely fine with the iPad, but one has to remember the iWorks app isn't preinstalled on the laptop, and from what I've read, you will have to pay for each app (i.e. Word, Powerpoint, etc equivalents will have to be purchased seperately).
In all cases: If you want a specific feature, then $500 at least is a lot to ask for. If you are talking an all rounder, then the closest thing to this device (and I mean closest) is the iPod touch, which is $184. You are shelling out $316 for a bigger screen for apparently a better internet viewing experience, support for book reading with an unknown library database, a questionable work device, and a better video watching playback experience - and bear in mind the cheapest version doesn't even come with 3G, and if you do get the 3G option, that's another monthly payment being taken from your bank. I'm a student, and if I was forced to choose an Apple product to buy out of the iPhone, the iPod touch, or the iPad (and if shooting myself wasn't an option), then I'd go for the iPod touch simply because it is a smaller, more useful clone of the iPad.
Man I'm hungry from writing this much... :confused:
Instead of answering all your points, I will just address this last paragraph as it sums up exactly the problem you have understanding how this is a consumer device. I don't mean for that sound as harsh as it does. So don't take that as an attack. The main point being, you think like a techie. That is not a bad thing, it is just the wrong way to think about this device.Quote:
Originally Posted by kregg
You, as many other people, are too focused on seperate features and saying X device can do X better and cheaper. Y device can do Y better and cheaper. Well what device can do X and Y and Z very well for what is not very expensive AND be an enjoyable experience? That is the question you should ask as that is the important one. Sure you say the iPod Touch can do all those things cheaper, but have you tried reading a book on an iPod Touch? While the iPod Touch is great for on the go little device for quickly checking on web sites or other bits of media and data, something bigger is WAY better for experiencing that media. Especially around the house. And around the house is more the focus of this device anyway. While it is mobile, it is still focused on being a device you can easily take anywhere in the house. I will touch back on this point later to discuss why this is important and how it changes your average consumer computing experience. I want to get to some of the other things first.
To address your issue about eBooks, Apple is working with the majors of book publishing like Harper Collins and Simon and Schuster. Those are not the only ones. They mentioned at least 5 or 6 publishers. And the prices are actually very competetive to the Amazon store. In the event keynote you can see prices ranging from $4.99 to $14.99. $14.99 being new releases. They are also in the ePub format so before anyone starts shouting about proprietary formats, they can stop now. This certainly makes buying from the Apple book store much more attractive over Amazons proprietary AZW format. And if the Amazon and B&N book stores still 'float your boat' there are iPhone/iPod Touch versions of their apps available in the App Store that should work on the iPad.
The 3G point really isn't worth addressing. How many devices of this size come with 3G? And when a USB connected 3G modem can cost up to and over $200, that point loses any meaning in the discussion and makes using the 3G models of the iPad as a comparisson point against devices without 3G pure spin. And in particular when you are using the iPod Touch as a comparison point that does not have 3G, let alone away to attach 3G to it at all.
To understand what is important about this, you have to go back many years to Bill Gates' book "The Road Ahead" as well as many of his CES keynotes back in the day. He was all about the internet appliance. Devices for the consumer for the consumption of the internet and our media. And that is what we are getting. Not a computer. But an appliance. This is the kind of device the average consumer will get a lot of use out of around the house. Imagine this. A device that docks to a keyboard for working on your financials, writing letters, or other productivity task at your home office. When you are done, undock it and either dock it to your TV to watch movies off the device, or keep it in your lap on the couch to browse the web while watching NBC. Need to go drop your kids off at the Super Bowl (metaphor alert :p), take it with you to the bathroom to read a book. Add in the possiblites of mobile gaming AND the quite real possiblity due to new APIs in the latest SDK that a dock could be created to play the games on your TV where the dock handle the control inputs and pushing the game display to your TV. And yeah I know, netbooks are cheaper and can do all that too. Well can you do all that and have it be an actual enjoyable experience? Every try reading an eBook on a netbook in the bathroom or on the couch? Ever try playing a game on a netbook on the couch? Not exactly ideal. The netbook is great, on a desk, but the experience is far from ideal.
Again, and I cannot stress this enough, this is a consumer focused computing appliance. Not a tech geek toy and not a computer. I hope none of that came off as too much of an attack on anyone. That was not the intention. Just saying geeks think like geeks. You need to think like your customer to understand the usefulness of this device to them. They need easy access. They need slick interfaces. They need one stop locations for all their media purchases. We may not need it, but many consumers do.
Last point I want to make, is reserve final judgement on this device until at least WWDC. I am fairly sure the next major point release of the iPhone OS (4.0) will be shown off then. As of now the iPad is only running a minor point release (3.2). This event was just to show off the basics of the device.
I need my coffee now.
Ah, the good old, "this wasn't intended for you, so your opinions are invalid."Quote:
You need to think like your customer to understand the usefulness of this device to them.
I don't really care to speculate about the mass market success or failure of this thing, but I feel it does show a failure to innovate - something Apple usually does well. I have a co-worker who's a Mac fan and he would go on and on about all this neat stuff the Apple tablet was going to have. He - like everyone else I've heard from - was disappointed by iPad. It's just a big iPod Touch.
That disappointment is really palpable amongst geeks right now. Geeks who learn about these products first, and could be hyping it from the get-go. But won't.
Geeks were dissapointed in the iPod, the iPhone, the GUI, and the mouse too. I have actual history to back up my points.Quote:
Originally Posted by SambaNeko
Well, true that I don't really keep a historical log of geek disappointment, and your silly empirical evidence of fickle feelings interests me not! Personal memory does not serve for the GUI, the mouse or the [original?] iPod, but I recall plenty of enthusiasm over the iPhone, plenty of gushing, plenty of geeks declaring, "I want this."
But my only real point was iPad is disappointingly lacking in the innovation department.
After reading this:
http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/patterso...stionsanswers/
I think I'm going to pass... no ports? No USB? No card reader? And it wobbles when you put it flat on a desk surface? Better off with a Mac Book... the only advantage I can see with the iPad is the 3G ... but then I can buy a 3G USB connector if I need to. Had there been at least one USB port and a card reader.... and maybe a different OS interface other than the iPhone one.... maybe...
-tg
Interesting how you almost make it sound like being old enough to have a historical perspective is a bad thing and that empirical evidence is silly despite being a valid hypothetical model. But that is your right I guess. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by SambaNeko
And yes there was mass attack from the geek community of the iPhone. You can't do REAL work on it. No one wants to use a touchscreen. No file system. etc. Sounds familiar doesn't it? The only reason it is louder now is because all eyes have been on Apple since January 2007 with the introduction of the iPhone.
And yes. The iPad is not revolutionary innovative. It is evolutionary. Doesn't change anything I have said.
I agree with you for the most part, but just FYI, Apple has a dock connector to USB and dock connector to SD card adaptors for the iPad. The call it the camera adaptor for hooking up your camera to the iPad, but I would wait and see how, and if, 3rd parties start supplying support to use that port in their apps. The API to use the dock connector for accessories was opened some time ago but no one has really taken advantage of it as of yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by techgnome
If I'm prefixing "silly" to "empirical evidence," I am either an idiot or joking (I thought the alliteration was a dead giveaway too...). Or both. Your choice, but suffice to say I think you're taking me both far too literally and seriously. :)Quote:
Interesting how you almost make it sound like being old enough to have a historical perspective is a bad thing and that empirical evidence is silly despite being a valid hypothetical model.
Fair enough. I just get very passionate about technology. :thumb: I am sorry if I took you out of context.Quote:
Originally Posted by SambaNeko
The problem with that is that it's ONE more additional cost... Might as well spring for a MacBook at that point... or a netbook, or.... what ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cander
-tg
I know. But still the potential is there. Whether that potential is realized, that is a subject for the future.Quote:
Originally Posted by techgnome
That the same as vapor ware as Vaporware only for hard ware as far as I'm concerned. I can claim it will do anything so it has great potential
Here's the changes I'd probably make to it:
Flatten the back so it doesn't wobble when you type on a desk surface.
Add a couple USB Ports, a firewire and an SD Card reader.
Add in a HDMI port, and the externals are good to go.
Next, to address the OS, I'd make it run OS X AND the iPhone interfaces. A simple switch, or an option setting, and you can switch back and forth. Oh, hey look at that.... development AND testing in one package... hmm... Naturally, it'll restart in what ever mode I left it off in.
Might even toss in BlueTooth just for kicks.
Orrr.... I'll just use my laptop, which has nearly all of that already (except for the OS).
I think the idea might have been right, but the execution of that idea fell flat.
I think they may have missed the mark big time with this one.
-tg
Nope. Learn what vaporware means. Seeing the potential of a device and what could be done with the hardware via the software is supposed to be what a programmer does.Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryMazzone
techgnome. It does support Bluetooth. What I have been told, this is unconfirmed, that you can pair bluetooth keyboards to this thing. And now that there is an API for accessing a shared storage area, we may see bluettooth file transfer. All maybes of course, but again the pieces are there. Agreed on most your other points except the OS X part because it would still be on a different architecture and therefore doesn't mean your existing apps will just work on it.
I spoke to my eldest sister today, who is not a techie. When she saw the iPad, she loved it. No matter how many negative points I threw at her, she still wanted to own a iPad... that was until I explained to her it has no flash and no camera.
Now she is so disappointed with the iPad. I feel bad, like I've just kicked a puppy. At least her bank balance will thank me.
I know what vapor ware is. My point is I consider it the same for this. Oh well we missed the mark but just think of what we can do.
so it's your fault kregg.... I should (iShould?) have known... now I'll have to wait an extra year to retire. My retirement fun dislikes you very much. ;)
-tg
Quote:
Originally Posted by kregg
I hate Flash. It needs Silverlight for Netflix! :sick: And if you mean front facing camera, agreed. Video Skype could have been the killer app. :cry:
I hate it too, but when Steve said something along the lines of the iPad delivering the best internet experience ever, and then finding out that nearly half of the internet doesn't work on the damned thing for a non-techie user, it is massively frustrating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cander
Now here is the thing - if the iPad actually had Mac OS X, then I could actually attempt to download and install the damned thing.
I do have to say I think Adobe's response to no Flash on the iPad is laughable. They are throwing words out like proprietary. How about Adobe opens up the Flash specification and then maybe Apple could develop their own Flash support in Safari that isn't a resource hog. :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by kregg
It's not the fault of Adobe.... it's Apple that's the hang up.
http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/patterso...flash-support/
http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/patterso...VAw8Ew78lCMZA5
-tg
It is both their faults. Adobe has never provided a plugin on OS X that hasn't been a serious resource hog. And the ARM version they produced was not the full version until very recently (Flash 10 wasn't ARM optimized until October I beleive). Apple is at fault for not saying 'Hey Adobe, lets work together' and not having open plugin support. But Adobe is far from being innocent. In fact they have been kinda dickish about Mac support for their products before.Quote:
Originally Posted by techgnome
From a Linux user point of view:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cander
http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/6...tviolinwz4.jpg
How about being on a platform where every single proprietary software (including drivers, etc) are badly done, if they even exist at all. To get upset that Adobe haven't made a plugin for OS X that isn't a resource hog is laugable. Have you tried using any of their products at all? All of them are bloated crap, and they all perform badly on any OS they are on. And don't even dare get me started on trying to use Flash on 64bit Linux.
The only reason Flash has done so well is because of how versatile the actual flash plugin is, despite how horrible it is to run. It's a damned necessary evil, and for a device that has claims to be the best internet experience ever, not having flash is euthanising your product for the average user, not the techie user, as you are so eager to point out.
EDIT: Also, this wasn't meant to be a direct attack as just pointing out/debate/etc. Please really don't take this post personally.
Geeks aren't the market, like the iPhone this either succeeds as a fashion accessory or joins the long list of failed Apple products.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cander
Personally after looking at the specs am waiting on seeing what the Microsoft product will have to offer as the iPad simply sucks the life out of the universe imho.
Lol. I hate many uses of Flash, but there are some games and animations that I'd miss without it. I was willing to accept Apple's argument of "Flash is too much of a resource hog for a mobile phone," but to not have it on the iPad is surprising and ridiculous to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by kregg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cander
Don't confuse novelty value with productivity. There are devices and services that exist that cater to these needs. These are novelty value based 'needs' which are being created by the existence of the device. In practicality, you won't do this. I don't know who does read books on a netbook, bathroom or couch, but I'm not sure why the comparison is being made. And if you're in the bathroom long enough that you need a book, then you should really eat more fiber. If you're using it in a home office, then the question arises - why are you using it as the center piece of your home office? Use a computer. And yes, you said don't think like a techie, but if you're going to mention productivity, think multitasking. So it's not a productivity tool. It's an Internet+media consumption application. Like a phone. With a bigger screen. And thus, the endless comparisons.
I do not take it personally. But I think you missed the context in why I was saying that. Yes Adobe products sucks. That was the overall point I was making. My response was in context to who is at fault about no Flash.Quote:
Originally Posted by kregg
Throwing out the old 'fashion accessory' BS argument that everyone tries to use when talking Apple pretty much makes your argument worthless.Quote:
Geeks aren't the market, like the iPhone this either succeeds as a fashion accessory or joins the long list of failed Apple products.
Personally after looking at the specs am waiting on seeing what the Microsoft product will have to offer as the iPad simply sucks the life out of the universe imho.
Could you possibly have missed the point and context of everything I said any more than you have? If you don't know why the comparison to netbooks was made; if you are going to play strawman about the bathroom comment; if you think productivity just means multitasking; then I really have nothing more say. The context was quiet clear. You are simply try to break up what I said into separate arguments that become meaningless. Hint for one of your points, productivty in the context it was being used obviously refers to home productivity software such an spreadsheets. Think about it.Quote:
Don't confuse novelty value with productivity. There are devices and services that exist that cater to these needs. These are novelty value based 'needs' which are being created by the existence of the device. In practicality, you won't do this. I don't know who does read books on a netbook, bathroom or couch, but I'm not sure why the comparison is being made. And if you're in the bathroom long enough that you need a book, then you should really eat more fiber. If you're using it in a home office, then the question arises - why are you using it as the center piece of your home office? Use a computer. And yes, you said don't think like a techie, but if you're going to mention productivity, think multitasking. So it's not a productivity tool. It's an Internet+media consumption application. Like a phone. With a bigger screen. And thus, the endless comparisons.
You should do some marketing and learn how products are sold and exactly how products are viewed. Most if not all Apple products are not as good as their competitors products they are sold on brand and brand loyalty :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cander
The iPod for example is simply a fashion accessory as is the iPhone. If another company had of released these products they would have been no where near as successful.
You are the one that needs to do some marketing research because you are so wrong. And if you had actually paid attention to anything I have written about consumer wants and needs, you might actually figure out the truth beyond that tired old drivel you heard someone else say on the internet.Quote:
Originally Posted by KiwiDexter
And they say Apple users are sheep. lol
I'd agree with that last statement.... See Zune v iPod figures..... Apple's figured out the one thing that escapes other hardware venors, and that's sex sells.... the iPods/iPhone is marketed as a trendy, sleek, sexy object... and it (the marketing) works. It's not because the product is superior.Quote:
Originally Posted by KiwiDexter
-tg
I don't know much about the iPad but 54 (had to just edit that from 53 because another post got in there) posts in under 48 hours is unusually high for any Chit Chat or non Chit Chat VBForums thread.
Dude you are either being incrediably naive or Apple advertising has simply zoomed over your head.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cander
Of course Steve could simply save some money on marketing as clearly his demographics aren't getting the messages his Marketing team are sending out. Now that wouldn't surprise me in the least.
A couple of the laptop manufacturers are trying sleek designs and pushing the sex part of it. Be interesting to see how they go.Quote:
Originally Posted by techgnome
Of course, I knew I was missing something the entire time I was writing the post. The point! *slaps forehead* "Be careful," I said to myself, "don't forget something important, or he'll use the strawman word again." Alas, I missed the point!Quote:
Originally Posted by Cander
Yes, the context is clear. Very clear. You're attempting to use 'strawman' (trademark?) in order to avoid questions, points or other comments which don't agree with your "points" which all of us, clearly, are missing.
I will definitely think about home productivity, will you think about home productivity too? Let's spend some time thinking about what people do at home. Normal people, not the smart ones, but the dumb ones (who aren't programmers and who watch Big Brother and other reality shows). This is going to sound like an attack, sorry, but I think that your view of productivity or the benefits of this product are based on what Apple's view is. I want your view. Cander's candor!
The dumb typical user doesn't want a computer to browse the internet. Computers have too much maintenance needs. You have to organize your files into folders, move and maximize and minimize windows on the screen, obtain and use antivirus software, regularly install updates, find applications from millions of sources, etc. Users don't understand these concepts. They don't want to understand these concepts. And, they don't want to do that stuff.
The ipad requires the user to do none of those things that a computer requires. It should be updated sometimes, but it isn't the end of the world if it isn't.
Also, many users don't multitask on computers. So it is actually easier and better for them that the ipad doesn't allow it.
Everyone on this forum should be underwhelmed by the ipad. We should all think that it is stupid. Apple isn't targeting us. Apple is targeting the average dumb user. No one on this forum is an average dumb user, so we aren't impressed by the ipad. Apple is targeting people who want a device or appliance to browse the internet, not a computer.
This is the only point I can actually agree with, but the iPad comes at a high price for such an easy computer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrow_Raider
Have you got any hard figures on that? On average, I've seen "dumb users" browse the web AND chat to friends over MSN Messenger. That is multi-tasking. That is one thing that the iPad cannot do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrow_Raider
Like I've said, this appliance, if viewed as just something to browse the internet is far too expensive, even for an average user. Add the fact that the thing doesn't have flash, and that's killed it off. True, it has Youtube on there, but what happens if the average user wants to browse a site that isn't youtube and needs flash - e.g. Kotaku, or Gametrailers (the biggie that definitely needs flash). What is the user supposed to do then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrow_Raider