It does seem that a lot of VBF members does not believe in God's existence and I am curious why.
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It does seem that a lot of VBF members does not believe in God's existence and I am curious why.
There is no physical proof that says only something can be created by god and not by science.
It is a consequence of the way that most programmers' minds are shaped to work.
Can science create something?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightwalker83
My 1st year high school teacher thought us that creating means making something out of nothing so if someone else can make something out of nothing then I will be baffled.
I was saying that there isn't anything that you can't just say that god is responsible for it but science could also be responsible.Quote:
Originally Posted by dee-u
Most people who believe in God do so because they are brought up in households or even Countries that believe in god and they impress those beliefs on there children.
This certainly applies to organised religions like Christianity, Judaism or Islam anyway. For instance a huge percentage of the population of Israel is Jewish.
I on the other hand was brought up in a family with no belief in God what so ever. I was never told that i either should or should not believe in god and was allowed to make up my own mind.
Being of a technical and scientific persuasion, i like to have some sort of factual proof that something is true. Nobody has ever been able to show me anything that could amount to proof or even evidence that God is real therefore i do not believe in God.
I think part of the problem is this Belief thing. I do not believe in Ghosts, Monsters or Father Christmas either as to believe in them you have to suspend rational thought.
Perhaps those who believe in God tend to not be programmers.
I was brought up in a society where people deeply believe in God. The moment of my birth, I was baptized without being asked for my preference. As I was growing up my parents would take me to church even if I didn't understand what the homily was about as evidenced in family pictures taken after going to church. In my first few years in grade school, a considerable amount of time was spent on religious subjects and I even remember having several Religion notebooks to which I write notes about the martyrs of days gone past. A lot of the school celebrations were centered around Christian beliefs and traditions. The same thing applies during my High School days up until my University days. We were even given the assignment of buying a new bible for class. Anyone who doesn't have the correct version and edition of the bible will be given lesser marks. Basically, I spent 23 years studying and practicing the religion I was brought up in.
All my friends were devout Christians, I even had a high school classmate that become a Nun despite being one of the most popular girls in school.
Then I joined VBF and met a lot of atheists and learned more about reality. Before that, I already felt false because I am not devout and I felt like what I was doing was routine and meaningless. Talking to different people from different beliefs and disbeliefs prompted me to have an open mind and embrace ideas that no devout would ever do.
I believe that Religion is good in that the morals are deeply instilled into people but in the same way it can prevent some form of innovation or improvement. For instance in the Philippines, because of religion, most if not all forms of contraception are shunned. One city even bans any type of contraception. The church teaches people to "Be fruitful and multiply" which to some family means have more and more children. This inevitably leads to overpopulation. Instead of trying to be inventive, the people are stuck at trying to make ends meet to put food on the table. I am not saying Religion is causing these things but it's the followers that most often than not misinterprets the teachings of their religion.
Now I have become tolerant but indifferent. I still believe in core values presented by Religion, but I just don't practice or preach.
I actually find this question quite offensive (and not only because the dreadful grammar, semantics and the lack of a question mark).Quote:
Why are you not a believer of the existence of God
It implies that religion is some sort of "default setting" for human beings. It is not.
Religion cannot be derived from any kind of observation, it must be taught by other people (unless someone's making it up off the top of their heads (see Catholicism)), thus making it an invention of man.
In answer to the question though, the reason I don't have a religion is that I have common sense and logic instead.
What's the worst that going to hapen to me if I don't believe in God? I can't go to hell because I don't believe in that either.
I've got nothing to gain from believing and nothing to lose from not believing.
Because I choose not to ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by dee-u
I believe in God, but only when I want to troll the science forums that are lurking full of angsty teens.
My problem with most religions is that they employ obvious brainwashing. I am immediately turned off when religion is discussed because big red alarms go off in my head sccreaming *DANGER* BRAINWASHING SCAM *DANGER*.
I am not a sheep.
How about everything that surrounds you? How about your breath? Are these things not convincing enough that someone great has made all of them?Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers
http://eldredpascoe.com/graphics/dobbshead.GIFQuote:
Originally Posted by wossname
Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.Quote:
Originally Posted by kregg
It was just curiosity that led me to start this thread, no offense meant. It's just that I believe in the existence of God and I was curious as to why many amongst the members here do not believe in His existence.Quote:
Originally Posted by wossname
Even if you don't believe in hell it does not mean you are not going there, I don't think disbelief will mean that it will not come true.Quote:
Originally Posted by wossname
I could believe in god, I could believe in pink elephants.
I dont believe in god because i find that there is no reason not to. I have not chosen to be an atheist "just for the sake of it", I find that science explains things much better than any religion.
I identify myself as Christian.
I grew up in a house where I went to church twice every Sunday. However, it was not until I went out into the real world myself, learned about other religions, that I decided that I really do believe in God. It was a conscious decision I made after years of thought.
I was taken aback a bit when I learned there were so many Atheists on this board. However, when thinking about it, as programmers/computer geeks/etc., we are taught to think logically. And I will admit, for religion, you do have to suspend a good amount of logic to believe in some of the things religious people believe in.
One big example is the birth of Jesus Christ. How, with all the knowledge we have of the human body, can one believe a virgin gave birth to another human being (especially considering artificial insemination was not around back then)? It's just one those stories I believe, because I believe in the power of God.
Different religions has varying doctrines which are opposite one another, as such I will agree that religion will not explain things better but the Bible should, the Bible and science agrees on certain situations like the ones listed here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atheist
What's your definition of God?Quote:
Originally Posted by dee-u
I'm certain that God exists. I could get into proofs about God's existence but if someone doesn't want to accept them you can't force them to so you have to respect everyone's freedom to believe as they choose to believe.
Here's some food for thought. If you look in your mail box and you see a letter in there you know that someone put the letter in there. If you see a universe that is the result of intelligent design you know that it had a source that was intelligent. Did you or I create this universe. It obviously is the result of a power that is beyond human power.
If you happen upon a television which is made up of many parts put together in such a way that it operates as a television do you say well it was just chance events that brought all those parts together so the tv operates as it does. Consider a human being which is much more complex than any tv. Is it just chance that brought about human life or was it authored by a supreme intelligence capable of much more than any human. I say the latter.
An all poweful being that created everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by capsulecorpjx
Hell only exists in certain traditions. Interestingly, it is easier to conceive of than heavan. Any attempt that I have heard to describe heavan makes it sound like the place would only be desirable if you had been lobotomized or worse. Meanwhile, people can come up with all kinds of interesting descriptions for Hell, and it always sounds more appealing.Quote:
Originally Posted by dee-u
I would be willing to believe in a god, but not any of the ones I have seen in any organized religion (except some eastern belief systems), as they trivialize what has to be an exceedingly complicated situation. Consider that a large array of sensory neurons are fining in your body at every instant. All the sounds that reach your ears are being heard, all the light that hits your eyes is being seen, all the touches are being felt, etc. Yet of this stream of information, you are aware of no more than a very tiny percentage. Something is filtering out the vast majority of the sensory input before it ever reaches your conscious mind. That filter is not without bias, as can be easily demonstrated (like that video of the people passing a basketball around), which constantly colors the way we perceive the world around us. Therefore, our conscious self appears to be the sum of our bias filters, yet it is the conscious self that we most identify with. Most people would get over the loss of a finger or a leg, while they would not get over the loss of their conscious self (such as with Alzheimers or brain damage). Yet that conscious self is nothing but the sum of what the filters pass.
I am working on a robot that has a large number of sensors. Not all of the sensory input will contribute to the goal that the robot has decided on, and some of the input will be counterproductive. The brain modules will need to filter out the input that is deemed not to be constructive. Will it be right? Certainly not all the time. How are we different from that robot in any way other than scale when a person can get in a car accident by texting on a phone? Their brain filtered out information that was vital to the continued existence of the person, and it happened below the level of consciousness. The filters failed. Is there a god behind the robot? Is there a god behind the person?
Is there room for god in this? Yes, but not a simplistic god that requires ritual devotion to the writings and thoughts of other humans who have achieved positions of authority through myriad means. God can't be within our understanding, so all organized devotion can't be meaningful. Worse, organized devotion performed out of fear of punishment (Hell), or with the expectation of reward (heavan) isn't benign by any stretch of the imagination. It is either neutral (just going through the motions) or malevolent.
So I choose to say that if there is a god, and there certainly doesn't need to be, then it will not be a god that conforms to any Judeo-Christian belief system.
The question of the virgin birth is another issue. After all, Mary wasn't a virgin in the original script, because the original script was not written in English, so the characters "virgin" would have been meaningless. A different word was used, which was relevant in the language of the times. What that word was cannot be determined exactly, as the oldest existing version of the bible was written centuries after the fact. However, the word used in some of the earliest known bibles is a word that would mean "unwed" as easily as "virgin". An unwed mother would be no surprise in this age, or any other.
In fact, books such as "The Closing of the Western Mind", which discusses the politics in play in early christianity leading to the creed of Nicea that founds (roughly) most of modern christianity, shows that what we take as accepted doctrine in this age came from ferocious (and often violent) negotiations between competing doctrines. However, the book also makes clear that there is a large amount missing from before Emperor Constantine, partially because christianity was, occasionally, heavily persecuted and not well documented.
The point being: The beliefs of today were not handed down by god, but are the results of bitter and violent fighting between various factions with different interpretations of whatever material they had at hand.
Is he concious? Does he have a human personality? If so why would he?Quote:
Originally Posted by dee-u
Many human motivations have been explained by social and evolutionary behavriologists, specific to our social and biochemistry.
It wouldn't make sense for God's personality or motivations to be like us.
I do believe in the virgin birth of Christ. With God all things are possible. What is impossible for man is not impossible for God. I believe we all have the potential to become like God. Christ taught that we can do what he did. I believe we will all come around to know that God exists after we go through a great enough number of experiences. God wants us all to be happy but He's given us freedom to chooses so if we suffer I say it is because we are living in error to some degree or other. Because we are worshipping false gods to some degree or other.
Im sorry, but that page was a sorry attempt in tweaking ambiguous sentences from an old book in an attempt to make it look as if they are talking about the things we discuss in science today. I'm defenitely not buying it, I mean just because they mention the stars and the sun in the bible does not mean the bible "agrees" with the astronomy we know today.Quote:
Originally Posted by dee-u
What about the times when the church literally murdered (and/or banished them) scientists for discovering things that were against what the church was preaching?
We have a saying here in Sweden which would be translated into english something like: "Turning the coat the way the wind blows", which means you dont stick to a certain standpoint but keep adjusting it in order to make yourself look like less of a fool.
As much as I enjoy discussing things like this ... I understand this particular topic is one where both sides are very...fond of their views. Perhaps we shouldn't debate the topic but rather just answer the original question, to keep it clean!
I agree. I believe in more than a million gods and I don't want any one of them to particulary offended. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Atheist
An exchange of views is rather welcome as long as no one is being offended. Let it be assured that I respect everyone's belief.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atheist
I just cannot get my mind into a non-believer's thought hence I want to know the reasons of their disbelief that's why I started this thread. I have to say I am not religious nor a Catholic, I haven't got a chance to visit our church for many years but I am a firm believer of the Bible and in the existence of God. This is not a religion thingy, religion does not even save one from getting into hell.
I think god exists but not in the bearded, fear striking sort of way. We as humans are arrogant. We believe that this "creator" has some sort of vested interest in us. Why would he? Intelligent design is another farce that we have made. If there is a divine being it would operate on a vastly larger or smaller scale than we could ever comprehend. If there is a god my feeling is he designed things like chance and random probability not organs and rocks.
Also I echo the sentiments of Shaggy, why would this all powerful entity punish or reward us based on morals that are only contextually human? For instance, think of animals culling the weak for the sake of the herd. If this where to happen in a human society it would be considered morally inconceivable yet we understand that it beneficial in terms of species survival.
Why are you a believer in god?
Can't imagine, or are terrified of, being dead, gone, non-existant? So you think up this idea of life after death. Man created god because they were full of fear, unable to understand so many many things, it was an easy answer to relieve their fear. Or they created him to enstill fear into children to prevent them from doing wrong things because if they did they would burn in hell for eternity. Who knows....
Unfortunately the idea never died and it just kept growing and growing, causing more trouble than it solved.
Sure it sounds great, the idea of life after death, and why wouldn't it!
I believe in the bible. Heck, I've seen one, touched one, and even read a few. Therefore, I feel quite certain that the bible exists.
They all sat down one day for a cup of tea with some crumpets and had forgiven each other, and they all lived happily ever after.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atheist
Believing in Hell doesn't make it real either.Quote:
Even if you don't believe in hell it does not mean you are not going there, I don't think disbelief will mean that it will not come true.
No, And your use of the word someone is interesting too. Most people seem to have a view of God that is very Human like.Quote:
How about everything that surrounds you? How about your breath? Are these things not convincing enough that someone great has made all of them?
I find it very far fetched that any 1 being could have created the universe and all the things in it. Science generally has a much better and more convincing explanation.
Also why do we have so many different religions that contradict each other ? which one is right ? surely if there was a god who wanted us to worship him he would ban all false religions. Then everyone would know where they stand.
Also what about the religions like Hinduism which believes in multiple gods ?
The more i read and experience about organised religions the more i find them disturbing. Also what about people who kill either themselves or others in the name of God. These people really believe that there is a god up there that wants them to kill other humans that God has supposedly created.
Now if i was God and i had created Humanity i would be really pissed off if one of my creations started to take it upon themselves to kill off others in my name !!
lol i'm sorry but how can you use that as 'proof' ? Thats just a story that has no evidence whatsoever, sure a man called Jeesus may have lived at that time but how on earth can anyone be sure that his mother was a virgin? Just because it says in some old book then it must be true? Please...Quote:
Originally Posted by Blakk_Majik
One thing I really do not understand is why the Bible is any different to any other story book. Why did someone pick up the bible and think wow this must all be true, rather than thinking oh look an interesting story that someone has made up.
Exactly, this guy Jesus could have fallen from the sky or he could have been a Spanish drug mule working for the Romans. There is no proof of god what so ever the drug smuggler theory has more proof than it.Quote:
Originally Posted by chris128
I am a heathen infidel unbeliever because I do not feel the need for God to explain any part of the world in which we live.
The fact that I do not know exactly how "it all began" (the infinite descent argument... so what created A? Answer: B. So what created B? Answer: C. So what created C? ... etc) does not mean that I need to provide a God at some point to end the line of questioning. I am happy to say that I don't know, and indeed it makes me want to find out. That's part of the nature of being a scientist, I suppose.
As a caveat, I will say that I have some friends who are both religiously evangelical and scientist; they rationalise both by putting their scientific inquisitiveness down to the need to understand more of God's work.
I also am prepared to accept that some "questions" may not really be questions. For example, "why are we here?" sounds like a reasonable question to ask, but implicit in its construction is the assumption that there is, in fact, a reason why. In my opinion, one might as well ask "Why is blue?", except that that is a clearer example of a non-question.
So I would turn the question around. Ask yourself why, fundamentally why, do you believe in the existance of God and don't be afraid to examine the truths, even if they might be uncomfortable.
Is it simply because you were indoctrinated, ie brought up in a religious environment and it is now as much a part of you as your mother tongue is your first language?
Is it because you are terrified of the consequences, and can't imagine the thought of a point in time where you might simply cease to exist, so you feel the need to imagine that there is a place where you will continue to be?
Is it because you desire the rewards, such as eternal life, or peace, or 72 virgins, or even more crude motivations?
Is it because you find the arguments of the scientific media (and Shaggy Hiker) regarding evolutionary biology and astrophysics to require belief, and therefore feel that they are on an equal footing with your own religious ideas, thereby justifying them? (I would point out that this doesn't actually answer the question of WHY you believe)
I would be interested to hear such self-analysis, if it is undertaken honestly.
Galileo was persecuted by the Catholic Church for what he taught.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atheist
From wikipedia article :
wikipedia article on Galileo GalileiQuote:
On 31 October 1992, Pope John Paul II expressed regret for how the Galileo affair was handled, and officially conceded that the Earth was not stationary, as the result of a study conducted by the Pontifical Council for Culture.[108][109] In March 2008 the Vatican proposed to complete its rehabilitation of Galileo by erecting a statue of him inside the Vatican walls.[110] In December of the same year, during events to mark the 400th anniversary of Galileo's earliest telescopic observations, Pope Benedict XVI praised his contributions to astronomy.
The Catholic Church in a sense apologized for how it treated Galileo. We all make mistakes so I think the churches have a right to make mistakes too.
You have shown no proof. All you've presented is someone claiming to be the result of a virgin birth.Quote:
Originally Posted by EntityX
In all honestly, I think more likely, Joseph and Mary had pre-marital sex, and to cover up for it and save their honor, they claimed that the pregnancy was a miracle.
That or the whole thing was made up after Jesus had followers .
...Well actually, technically it does.Quote:
Even if you don't believe in hell it does not mean you are not going there
If you look at all the main monotheistic doctrines from the past 4000 years or so, they all indicate that the God in question derives his (her?) power from the total number of believers that follow him. If everyone stopped believing in God all at the same time, then that God would cease to exist.
What is less clear though is that if people changed their mind again a minute later and believed again, would the God you get back be the same one that vanished a minute ago or would he be a different (but very similar) one?
Also it seems to me that as soon as you die, your own amount of belief instantly becomes valueless to God or Satan. I came to this conclusion because presumably there are many (say 1000 times) more sinners in Hell than their are holies in Heaven. The sinners would certainly have a very tangible belief in Satan because he's busy torturing them all the time. If that post-mortem belief in Satan and God was actually "counted", then Satan would be 1000 times more powerful than God.
This would lead to a state of affairs where Satan would vanquish God, and bring about a new era where people that worshipped Satan would be regarded as holy and those that worshipped God as evil. A complete 180 degree role reversal. Thus begins an endless, infinite cycle. On average, therefore, God == Satan.
Q.E.D.
Hmm, actually this logic thing isn't all it's cracked up to be.
You know what? Forget it!
Persecuting someone isn't just a simple mistake. Especially when you're such an influential community as the catholic church. These "men of god"...should they not know the truth universe and how its built? If they claim that heliocentrism is false back then, should it not also be false now? Why the sudden change? If they claim to have a book that explains the creation of the earth, and being able to "contact" the creator of earth...why have they been wrong on so many accounts? Thats just one of the things I've been thinking about from time to time.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by EntityX
For me personally I don't need to believe in God because I know for certain He exists so belief is unnecessary. It's not anything that I could ever prove to anyone else though. Some people have abilities that you or I do not have. So I guess you could say I have a perception of God that not everyone does. For those that don't have the same perception they might believe or not believe in God but I'm convinced that we will all eventually evolve our consciousness to a state where we directly perceive God so that belief is unnecessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by zaza
As for the purpose we exist I say it is to realize perfect joy and God is that perfect all satisfying joy. So I say the purpose of life is to realize our oneness with God who is perfect joy. Examine your motives in everything and you'll see that you are always acting to find joy in some form or other. Whether you believe it's possible to attain or not is another question.
All the joys of the senses(food, sex, music, etc) are tainted so to realize God we have to learn to transcend the senses and identification with the body at will. That is what the science of meditation is all about. The masters dedicated incarnations to meditation in order to become God-realized souls.
Most people when they are awake are in a constant state of sensory activity and sensory identification. Through meditation you can learn to gradually calm the senses and even shut them down at will. That takes practice and time. When you become sufficiently fed up with the senses and realize that they are truly powerless to satisfy your soul then it's possible you might be ready to make a serious commitment to start disciplining the senses and perhaps even meditating. Suffering can be a prod to awaken us.
I was wrong, God does exist; he is a regular commuter on the 08:20 from Paddington. Here's the proof:
http://www.fullmoon.nu/articles/art.php?id=tal
I'm afraid that is pretty much a definition of belief. Without any physical evidence, and with the open acknowledgement that you will never have any, then how is there any difference between your belief and your certainty? That you have certainty of belief is something that you have in common with many other religious people, however it does not make it an actual certainty.Quote:
Originally Posted by EntityX
Your belief, or your certainty if you choose, is defined entirely within your own mind. I suspect that your reasons for continued believing are also contained entirely within your own mind. For example, perhaps you perceive an unusual feeling when you close your eyes, or meditate, or pray, or whatever it is that allows you to confirm your beliefs.
Is it a coincidence that prayer / meditation of some description is a significant part of a majority of religions? It involves putting your body into a state in which as many of the senses are suspended as possible; closed eyes to hamper sight, body supplicant to hamper touch, a location that is quiet or with chanting to hamper hearing, and which similarly tends not to have a wide variety of smells (nobody prays in the kitchen whilst wife is cooking, for example), and there is nothing to taste.
So you cut off as many of your bodily senses as you can, and concentrate your mind on the search for a mental contact with the "other being". Is it any surprise that, because you desperately want to believe it is there, or because you are certain that it is there, that you find it?
Given how easy it is for the brain to interpret its surroundings in so many ways, such as the basketball example cited earlier, or even simple colourblindness, it makes it all the easier for the brain to form its own interpretations when deprived of significant external stimulus.
This psychological phenomenon has been studied extensively, and continues to be so.
My original question, however, has what prompted this? Did you read a book one day, decide you liked the sound of it and gave it a try? And hey presto, you found "something"? I am curious...
I sense that there is a being that is much greater than any human being. I know that That Reality is everywhere and connects everything and is involved with everything and everyone. You can develop a relationship with God just like you can develop a relationship with someone you know. God can respond to you just as a human being can respond to you and He can respond in ways that no human could respond. There are many different levels of God contact and I could certainly be much more advanced in my contacting of God than I am but you can know God exists just as certainly as you know anything else exists. As certain as I am of my own existence so certain am I of God's.Quote:
Originally Posted by zaza
To answer the question what prompted this, I would say life and all that happens in it prompted it. We're all seeking happiness and nothing less than God is going to satisfy our soul. I say all of us are going to come around to that truth whether it is sooner or later, in this incarnation or thousands of incarnations from now. There's a force that keeps pushing us to seek our satisfaction in the body, in material realities and sensory realities and that force is very strong. It takes time to evolve to a state where you can completely resist it and realize that absolutely everything you could possibly need or want is right at the center of what you are. That is what meditation is about. It's about realizing that the kingdom of God is within us. The joy we are seeking is within us. Even if you don't believe in God if you keep on trying to improve yourself as a person I say you're on a path back to God even if you don't think you are. Yogananda said, "The evil man in time becomes again the perfect soul." So even evil people will become illumined eventually but it might be after numerous painful lessons and many incarnations.
I don't know about those doctrines but I cannot agree with them if that is what they say. God has all been powerful even before He created humans hence it is illogical that He derived His power from the beliefs of humans.Quote:
Originally Posted by wossname
True theist would also believe of the existence of Satan, I cannot imagine someone who would believe in Satan and don't believe in God, what could be reasonable is that those who don't believe in God would be following Satan's influence without them knowing. =)
God has given us freewill to choose what we should believe so He does not coerce all human to follow or believe in Him, it is up to us if we will accept or reject His existence. I just choose to believe in Him, after all what should I lose?
I pray even when I am driving, prayer is conveying your message to God and does not require special rituals.Quote:
Originally Posted by zaza
Your 1st grade high school teacher is using the Straw Man argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by dee-u
Regardless, the belief in God does not require proof of the existence of God. But it does remind me of this:
A hurricane is coming to a small town. All the warnings have been given but one man says he will wait for a sign from God to tell him what to do. So he sits on the porch waiting for the sign.
As the wind builds, a guy in a truck passes by, but stops to offer him help to leave. The man replies that he is waiting for a sign from God.
The surge waters rise, swamping his house. A rescue team in a power boat see the man in a second story window. Still, the man states that he'll wait for a sign from God telling him what to do.
The water rises further, the man is on the roof. A rescue helicopter sees the man in peril and moves in to help. Once again, the man protests that he is waiting for a sign from God.
Later, the man is before God. He asks God why did he not receive a sign. God replies; the truck, the boat and helicopter were not enough for you?
The existence of science and technology does not preclude the existence of God, or visa versa. Science is not a 'belief' mechanism and is not a replacement for religion or belief. For example, creationism is not an 'alternative' to the science of evolution. Science is based solely on disprovable theories. Teaching and practicing science does not preclude a belief in creationism at all.
I have to say that's nonsense, Creationism is basically the theory or belief that the Universe, life and humanity was created by god in 7 days as described in Genesis chapters 1-2.Quote:
For example, creationism is not an 'alternative' to the science of evolution. Science is based solely on disprovable theories. Teaching and practicing science does not preclude a belief in creationism at all.
This theory goes more against science than any other theory i have ever heard.
How can anyone believe that the Earth was created in 7 days and is approximatily 6000 odd years old despite all the archeological evidence against it is quite astounding.
I mean if we believe Genesis literately Eve the first woman was created out of 1 of Adams Ribs.
Most religions will fail once we find conclusive proof of life on other planets. Most of them are very earth-centric in their histories and beliefs. Why would god send his only son to just earth? God created us in his image. So that means that all sentient life in the universe looks like us? What happens if we find lizard people out there?
Depends what she's cooking!Quote:
Originally Posted by zaza
You have just argued my side. You are applying scientific theory to creationism: because you have argued that creationism is verifiably false based on scientific principles, it is, therefore, an invalid theory. However, a theory is not a belief.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers
Even so, have you not considered that God - based on the understood abilities of God - made the archeological evidence appear to be older than 6000 years? Maybe the universe was created yesterday, and we have been given all these memories and experiences in such a way that we believe them to be true?
Regardless, this would fall in the 'belief' category, and not 'science'. Many people insist on applying scientific principles to belief systems - the preordained (sic) outcome is that it will fail, thus proving such belief system to be false. It is odd that so many smart scientists are so blinkered in doing so; but it's not so surprising when so many creationists want to consider Creationisim as a replacement for science.
Further, many who furiously oppose creationism, the Bible and belief in god as shaping our world will inevitably fail because they assume far too much about a belief system; precisely that they cannot fathom a belief in something that cannot be scientifically disproved. Generally, they take the belief as literal: that those who believe in God, and by extension, The Bible (not distinguishing between the testaments) 'literally' believe the world was created in seven days. Weather a person 'believes' such a thing has no bearing on science beyond the fact that it doesn't follow scientific principles.
Scientists often build their arguments from the point that The Bible is a history book, or a document-of-what-happened, and gleefully point out the contradictions. Fundamentally, though, belief systems are not under the tenure of scientific principle.
So basically you are saying Creationism is valid because people believe it to be so.
Then if i believe that the Moon is in fact the main source of light in our solar system rather then the sun it may be an invalid theory, as scientifically it can be dis-proven but because i believe it, it is in fact perfectly valid and in fact true.
The Moon is the main source of light in the solar system as i believe it to be so such is the power of belief.
And nobody can disprove it because you cant use scientific reasoning against my belief as it is a belief.
Also what Science do you believe ?
Do you believe that all science is false or just the science that contradicts your beliefs.
For instance the law of gravity is a scientific theory that we can observe the effect of therefore we have created a theory that explains how it works.
If i was to believe that Gravity did not exists would it then not exists and in fact be false ? as belief cannot be explained or argued against by scientific principals.
I also think this is a weak argument for the simple reason that you are talking rubbish. It's your belief and that's cool but its not a tangible argument. Saying that Allah wrote the Koran is tangible. Saying that god made evidence to counter his followers evidence is just waffle. The funny thing is the first scientific prove of a god (if it happens) will be advocated by the very people that claim science is rubbish.Quote:
Originally Posted by SJWhiteley
Tell me where I said that was proof? I have no more proof that God exists than you have that he doesn't. I simply used that as an example of things that I believe, which go against rational human thought based on the information we have currently.Quote:
Originally Posted by chris128
It is clear that you would've figured this out, had you read my post instead of pouncing on the sentence that you picked out to make fun of.
That is what I have chosen to believe. Not one time in my post did I say "believe this or go to hell", as it is not my place to judge anyone's beliefs.
In the future, please refrain from putting words in my mouth.
No they don't. That was Terry Pratchett :). The religions just say "I'm right, everyone else is wrong, if you don't believe me you'll be punished" or some loose derivation of that.Quote:
If you look at all the main monotheistic doctrines from the past 4000 years or so, they all indicate that the God in question derives his (her?) power from the total number of believers that follow him.
The problem here is the same one that comes up in every similar debate, whether it's phrased "Why don't you believe" or "Why do you believe". Those who do believe in a God do not and usually cannot provide logical proof that their God exists. Atheists take that as proof that he doesn't or as weakening the argument for his existence while missing the point that belief in a deity osn't logical, it's fundamental (not to be confused with fundamentalist:rolleyes:). To give an example of what I mean, close your eyes and hold out your hand. OK, you know where it is don't you? You have an absolutely fundamental knowledge of exactly where your hand is. You can even touch your nose with pin point accuracy without needing to open your eyes. You just know where it is without question. That's what believing in a deity is like - you just know. Logic doesn't enter into it.
Equally, theists are unable to understand the mentality of those who ask for proof of God. Why? Because they 'know' that their god exists. Atheists become the equivalent of someone saying 'your hand isn't where you thought it was and I won't accept that it is until you can prove it.' Well you know where your hand is. You don't need to prove it. You probably can't prove it. You just know it and can't understand how anyone could question something you know to be not only true but patently obvious.
The argument is destined to go round and round because the midnset behind each position makes it impossible to understand the opposite position.
Oh, and before any smart arse quotes Kinesthenic Perception back at me I know all about it. My hand analogy is meant as just that, an analogy (or parable, if you will:p) meant to help understand the opposite mindset, not as a scientific proof of some kind.
The religion I follow wouldn't fail. It takes what you are talking about(discovering alien life) into consideration. It also has a different interpretation of the Christian scriptures from many churches out there. The only begotten son of God is an omnipresent reality that Jesus Christ was perfectly united with so in some sense you could say that Jesus Christ was the only begotten son of God but Bhagavan Krishna was also perfectly united to that reality so you could say that Krishna was the only begotten son of God. It refers not to a human individual but to an omnipresent reality. I believe that Jesus Christ has equals and that we are all potentially his equal. That's where I diverge from what some Christian churches teach. Paramahansa Yogananda(1893-1952) wrote commentaries on both the New Testament and the Bhagavad-Gita and taught that their teachings are compatible. I believe he was one of those rare equals of Christ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psyrus
I did say most religions would fail. I was born and raised catholic but no longer believe in the church.Quote:
Originally Posted by EntityX
The thing is though, and I've always been curious about this - what do you 'believers' think of other religions? Do you think that Vishnu and all the other religion's gods dont exist and you just happen to have found the 'real' god that is worth following? Doesnt the fact that so many different religions exist make you think that some, if not all, of them must be a load of nonsense?