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Browsing through the threads today in .Net, I have come to the conclusion that JMcilhenney has finally snapped from all of the "I don't know how to do it, can you give me code that does it for me" or "I can't get your code to work" threads.
Granted, those same threads drive me insane, too, but he does put a good effort into trying to answer their questions.
All in all, I think the man deserves a vacation.
:lol: Where is the proof of this?
Ah, yes, it truly looks as if JM is in need of a vacation! Maybe Brad can order him to stay away from the forum for a month.
Without JMcilhenney the site will be dead.. He says that you have to search before asking question ... What is the wrong in that one ?
It's not that he's wanting people to do research; rather, it's just how he's saying it. :P
Lazy people deserve a proverbial kick in the butt, which I consider my sarcastic remarks to be. If it prompts them to think for themselves in future then I've done them a favour. If it prompts them to give up software development then it might be for the best anyway. If you want to be any sort of software developer then you shouldn't need someone to explain how the internet and a search engine work. Not knowing is no crime. Not trying should be.
Who are you?Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcilhinney
That is unless they have tried thinking for themselves but failed and so came to the forum as a last resort.Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcilhinney
That's not what I'm talking about. If someone tries to find what they need and can't then of course they should post here, and I'll do my best to help them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightwalker83
If someone posts here asking about creating an internet-capable chat client and, after providing some relevant general information I say:and then 7 minutes later they say:Quote:
You might want to do a bit of reading on network address translation (NAT), which is the mechanism that allows multiple internal (LAN) IP addresses to share one external (internet) IP address
I think that it's a fairly safe bet that they havne't made any effort to search for information on network address translation for themselves.Quote:
Okay, and where could I find information on that?
If I had just said "NAT" then I could excuse it, even though a web search for nat would still return relevant information, but I gave the full name and a brief description of what it's for. If anyone is truly not capable of finding information for themselves with that then I'm not sure they're capable of developing software.
Well, I think that would lead to trouble be vbforums starts denying access people because they are lazy. There wouldn't be need to forums then because all the information would already be available and people would all be nerds and geeks. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcilhinney
Would be funny though if forums were able to detect whether a new user was lazy or not and deny them joining the forum. :lol:
I'm not suggesting that lazy people be denied access. I'm suggesting they stop being lazy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightwalker83
There's a definite need for forums. I've posted questions on this and other forums myself, and received help. When problems are complex and require the bringing together of multiple concepts, when problems have obscure solutions, when the key words to search for to solve a problem are not immediately obvious. Those are the times when people should be posting on forums. Obviously, the less experience you have the more situations will qualify. Being a rank beginner at VB doesn't mean you can't click the Help menu in VS, it doesn't mean you can't search the web and it doesn't mean you can't read. Those options should always be tried first, no matter your level of experience.
All that aside though, when I give some the exact key words to search for then I expect that they will be able to search for them. That only takes basic computer skills, not programming skills.
I think what it comes down to is that some people believe that lazy questions should be answered, some believe they should be ignored and some believe that the fact that they are lazy should be brought to the poster's attention. They are all valid points of view. I fall into the third category and I'm unlikely to be recategorised any time soon. You can love me or hate me. I'm here in the hope that what I post can make those who read it better developers. If that's by imparting knowledge or just getting some to use their head instead of putting their hand out then I'm happy. If I don't make any friends in the process, I can live with that. Friends just want to share your chocolate anyway.
Jupiter Media snappped?
Here's an example of what can be achieved if one practices what I preach.
http://www.vbforums.com/showthread.p...62#post3549262
A couple of minutes on the web and I was answering a WPF question for someone else when I have basically zero WPF experience. Seek and ye may well find. Don't seek and ye certainly shan't. I'm not saying that the member there was necessarily being lazy because they may well have searched for themselves after last posting and they were following a slightly different thread of advice. It just proves that you don't have to wait for others though.
I agree with jm.
I try to be strict about not spoonfeeding lazy people with information. Altough it always ends up with someone else (usually a newer member), coming in and handing the lazy poster everything he needs, rendering my attempts of making him less lazy completely useless.
I know. Don't ya hate that? It's like one parent saying "eat your greens" and the other saying "don't worry, have some ice cream anyway". ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Atheist
i think teach is a better word than preach. Not everyone learns the same way, but learning by doing yourself has a better retention.Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcilhinney
The worst is when someone copies code from the forum into their app, pastes it and then complains about it not working after being spoonfed the answer. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by jm
...
When that happens, it sometimes takes a great deal of patience on my part to not trout slap the poster (not the OP, but the undermining code poster).Quote:
Originally Posted by Atheist
Especially when you've noted that the code you provided is "Untested, and you'll need to change varaibles and controls to fit your situation." ... Grrr...Quote:
Originally Posted by BillGeek
-tg
I agree totally, my view is that if they are too lazy to help themselves then they can pay me good money to fix it for them. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcilhinney
ComboBox26...
ddl1
You mean to tell me jmcilhinney that you are not omniscient. I thought you were omniscient. The image I had of you has been rudely shattered.Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcilhinney
IL be your friend John...Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcilhinney
Oh so you like chocolate do you.
I spend all my coding time trying to think of better ways to be lazy! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcilhinney
I can respect concerted attempts to be lazy, but when it just happens through laziness...Quote:
Originally Posted by penagate
The trick to being lazy is to get plenty of exercise so that everything become easy to do.
So what you're saying is if you are not presently lazy you have to work at being lazy so it becomes second nature. That way your laziness will be automatic and effortless.
i have to agree with jmcilhinney,
you can tell straight away when a person is just wanting you to do the work for them and when they are willing to learn and research.
I only start a topic on here when i can't find what i need via Search. i have got to add the the basic search is not very good on here and i find that searching google gets better results although it does sometimes end up back here at VBF.
Well dont jmcilhinney
PS can you give me the code to set all the clocks in my office to a set time each day so i can get off early !!! :)
David
no but we can give you code so you come into work late. Same net effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Davadvice
I must agree with JM...
Oh, I have a little tool for you :D
http://lmgtfy.com/
I ran into this a few minutes ago:
http://www.vbforums.com/showthread.php?t=574953
It even got serious replies...
I was actually looking at that thread too..I was thinking about making a post questioning the "making of other peoples homework", but figured it'd be of no use.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBigB
There's a phenomenon where people of intermediate experience want to take every opportunity to show what they can do and, indeed, help other people. Because there are many questions that such people won't be able to answer or won't get to before those with greater experience have already answered, they take every opportunity to answer questions that they find that they are able to, even if they shouldn't. I can't criticise these people too much because I certainly did the same thing early on. The more questions you've answered though, the less you feel compelled to answer questions you shouldn't, and the easier it gets to spot those questions. That said, given that the OP in that thread did the right thing and said that it was an assignment, a little more restraint with the provision of code could have been shown.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBigB
In my day, all you had to do was berate the lazy noobs until they got all mardy and never came back. Never any stress, plus it's a lot of fun.
These days I've retired from posting in the technical forums. I berate people for my own enjoyment.
I'm in two minds about this. I know that I've often used worked examples as a great learning tool and that's essentialy what you're giving someone by just posting a code response. I'd take the posted code, step through it, watch the values change etc and use it to learn from. It seems a shame to deny someone else the same opportunity if they're going to use it as a learning tool.
On the other hand I can remember back to my degree and the number of people who would just grab completed code and hand it in. I remember once a girl asked the java tutor for some help. When the tutor said "OK, you'll need to create a function" she turned to the keyboard and typed 'Dim myFunction as new function'. This was in the final year! She's clearly been cribbing for the past three years and hadn't understood a damn thing. I've even worked with some programmers in industry who think they can get away with cutting and pasting code from an existing module that does something similar. It's a nightmare trying to pick up the pieces behind these morons.
So whether or not I just post an answer back really depends on how it was asked for. If I get the impression someone genuinely wants to learn then I'll probably give them the benefit of the doubt. If someone's clearly coasting I just ignore their question. If I'm not sure then I'll post an answer but leave a syntax error or two in to prevent it compiling - I can then wait and see if they resolve it themselves or post back "I tried ur cod it not wurkz wot iz prob plz."
you just copied and pasted that last line........ Cheat. ;)
I think there is a fundamental problem with the way programming is taught in colleges in the US (can't speak for other countries).
Over here, there is no time to focus on programming. You have a program due in your .NET class tomorrow, but you also have an Accounting test to study for and an English paper to write. This was the biggest problem for me personally while I was in school.
On the other hand, you have students that are just downright lazy (which I am sure is the group JM's angst is focused toward). Posting homework assignments word-for-word is the ultimate example of "I just want you to do my work for me".
Maybe you guys could create a forum specifically for homework assignments. I'm a member on a physics forum and they do it too, it works pretty well. There's one section for general questions about physics, and there's another section for homework assignments.
If you make a post in the general section, there's a 'warning' at the top that tells you to post in the homework section if you have a homework issue (with a link there), so new members can learn that.
In the homework section, you are automatically given a template as:
1. The problem statement
2. Relevant equations
3. The attempt at a solution
(I guess 2. isn't really relevant here, but you could turn it into 'which version of VS' or something)
The 3rd is the most important; members are 'forced' to show at least an attempt at their assignment, and then explain why they couldn't finish it. If anyone ignores that and just asks for the solution, he is given a warning that that is not the purpose of the forum.
Also, people simply providing the answer without giving the OP the chance to do it him/herself are also warned.
It works pretty well over there, but I can imagine it requires a fair amount of moderating. But once you've got it set up you can basically eliminate any 'plz gief code kthnxbye' posts...
That's not a bad idea but the problem here isn't really with homework assignments. The problem is that some people are just too lazy (or dense) to do any work themselves. There's a definite tendancy for these people to be students getting assignments done but they're by no means the only ones. If we did adopt that aproach it would be applicable to pretty much the whole forum. Maybe that would be a good idea though.
Also, there are times when I have no idea where to start solving a problem. At that point I'll ask for a nudge in the right direction rather than a complete answer and I don't think that's unreasonable. What should I put in the 'Attempt at solution' box in that scenario?
I actually think it's a pretty good idea but would need some refining before it could be made to work here.
I think that's a bad idea. This will lead to the influx of "programming is just a job" people, of which I see many at my work place. The only tendency that homework help will lead to is that they'll keep finding people to help them. Programming is not just about writing code, it's also about thinking and logic and design and everything that (the original) Spock believed in. I don't want more of these people who don't actually like programming in the workplace. They make me uncomfortable. Many of them even have social lives.
um... ok where is the other part of the conversation that I missed??
EDIT: ahh... first post on second page strikes again :blush:
Well the idea is that people posting in the homework section are only given hints and tips on how to arrive at their solution, maybe a tiny code sample here and there, but certainly no full examples and solutions. If someone asks how to generate a random number for example, we could point them to the Random class documentation, instead of given the code to do it. Right now, I see loads of people simply replying with the code needed to do something, without any explanation, and I'm pretty certain most people will copy paste that and not look at it twice. If we point them to the right classes and documentation, they get a chance to find out for themselves and learn something.Quote:
Originally Posted by mendhak
How is that any different than what's going on now? There's nothing to stop people from posting the solution in the homework area any more than in the rest of the forums. Actually, what I see happening is that people won't post inthe HW section, knowing that they won't get the answer... they're going to post where they think they will... I've seen a number of C# postings in the VB.NET section, simply because they see the C# forum as dead and think they'll more likely get an answer in VB... then when some one posts something, they reply "well, I was hoping for something in C#" (yeah, you know who you are)...
Having a HW forum wouldn't solve anything.... just create more work for the mods.
Best way to solve this, if it looks like homework, smells like homework or tastes like home work, it probably is... so treat it as such, call the poster out, give them a hint, don't give the code, and let people know that we don't just doll out the code, and that if they at least make an attempt, and come back with SPECIFIC questions/problems, then we'll HELP them work out the solution. If you find some one who just blindly posts the answer w/o so much as an explanation or attempt to provide some guidance, send them a PM and let them know that it's not kosher, and that while not against the rules directly, it does go against the spirit and traditions of VBF to do stuff like that.
-tg