Sometimes I guess I just don't understand..[RANT]

I guess I will never understand management that requires near flawless results in the absence of specifications. I will never understand how that became my requirement as a programmer to gather specifications that were either vague or nonexistent as that is a businees analyst role and then spend that inordinate amount of time on that task and then begin coding and then testing and then completing documentation and all of this with the complaint that this falls beyond a single week as a deadline. Especially when it wasn't identified in my job description or in the interviews previous to my acceptance of said job.

And that this is considered reasonable in lieu of everything that had to be done up to this point to retrieve the data when active views and tables that the DBA( my boss) was responsible for failed to update with either the current data or there were data intergrity issues that meant extra filters placed in stored procedures to exclude this or that.

I will never understand whatever political stuff that is going on between the users( as mentioned by my boss) in terms of complaints but when i speak to them everything is fine and they are understanding the time it is taking and my boss and that obstacles have been posed by him in my way to nail down specific criteria. So there is a discrepancy in regards to what is said in my presence and what he is referring down to me second or third hand.

Now I have to copy my unreasonable boss on every e-mail which he hardly reads because my outlook read receipt reflects that he doesn't and that he wants me to stop any and all verbal communications with them as he says they are saying one thing and you are saying another. How could that possibly be productive based on getting a result quickly as the user/ client contact I interact with has other duties and e-mail doesn't always translate the thought process of what is needed and what is expected to be produced. And he and I have worked well together so far ? How can my job be done effectively without speaking to my point of contact here ?:mad:

There are probably a lot of general things going on in the world as well as something specific in your shop.

I see several general trends:

• Users want more for less.
• Users expect to pay beans and get shrink-wrapped quality spit and polish for one-off projects.
• Programmers are expected to be analysts by management.
• Programming itself is seen as a trivial activity by management and users.
• As the workplace changes, programming is even less valued and those so-called "soft skills" are what you'll be measured on.

I don't see a way out of the box. These combine to create significant conflict.

For personal success you can have the weakest coding skills in the world. The key is to be a pleasant, even enjoyable individual and excel at the paperwork and be visibly enthusiastic at all of the "aren't we great" parties - er, staff meetings. If everyone does this though who is off creating and polishing that code?

Ever seen that movie "Miss Congeniality?" Her abilities as a cop didn't count for much but a low-level grudging appreciation. She came into her own though after being coached to success as a beauty pageant candidate. But competing at that every day wouldn't leave a lot of time for cop work, hmm?

I guess they'd outsource that.

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* Users want more for less.
* Users expect to pay beans and get shrink-wrapped quality spit and polish for one-off projects.
* Programmers are expected to be analysts by management.
* Programming itself is seen as a trivial activity by management and users.
* As the workplace changes, programming is even less valued and those so-called "soft skills" are what you'll be measured on.

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1) that's a general trend... not just in development, but society as a whole. I'm guilty of it just as much as the next person.
2) that's bad... that means someone, somewhere hasn't set the proper expectation. But I do know what you mean. I've seen it too... even after the expectations were set (it was assumed we would just naturally go above and beyond the call and were simply lowballing it). (no, we weren't, it was a stretch to meet the expectations, let alone exceed them.)
3) that's because for too long there were "programmer analysts" ... I used to be one... it's only been in the last 5 years or so that it's being recognized that developers don't necessarily understand the business enough to get what the users are saying. Mean while, the users don't speak "geek" either.
4) That's the worst sin of all... and all too common. Even where I'm at, it's only been in the last two years that management recognized that this thinking has been a mistake. At least we're moving towards correcting that.
5) I hope I die before I get to that point. I hate politics, and I'm a do-er not management. Then again, maybe I won't have to worry about it. Since I don't have those soft skills, I won't get promoted to management.

there is one way out of the box... it's not a pleasant one, nor easy given the economy... but if you can, change boxes. That's what I ended up doing (not by choice though)... and it's been for the better.

-tg

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Originally Posted by dilettante

There are probably a lot of general things going on in the world as well as something specific in your shop.

I see several general trends:

• Users want more for less.
• Users expect to pay beans and get shrink-wrapped quality spit and polish for one-off projects.
• Programmers are expected to be analysts by management.
• Programming itself is seen as a trivial activity by management and users.
• As the workplace changes, programming is even less valued and those so-called "soft skills" are what you'll be measured on.

I don't see a way out of the box. These combine to create significant conflict.

For personal success you can have the weakest coding skills in the world. The key is to be a pleasant, even enjoyable individual and excel at the paperwork and be visibly enthusiastic at all of the "aren't we great" parties - er, staff meetings. If everyone does this though who is off creating and polishing that code?

Ever seen that movie "Miss Congeniality?" Her abilities as a cop didn't count for much but a low-level grudging appreciation. She came into her own though after being coached to success as a beauty pageant candidate. But competing at that every day wouldn't leave a lot of time for cop work, hmm?

I guess they'd outsource that.

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Agreed. But all things being equal the idea that a programmer must also must be an analyst and fill that role is a false assumption or premise. Unless that was a specified prerequisite of the job before coming in to fill the position. Sure we have to be logical thinkers and think of the most efficient solution from a to b but when you are tasked to draft/build specifications( in my case the only thing I had was the result the users had from some time ago in the form of an excel spreadsheet) and then build the program and then test it and and so on all within a week or less is unreasonable. I just described at least two jobs that could be based on that process and of them at any step without the proper information or requirements you can expect some degree of failure, setbacks, bugs or what have you.

This is where I have problem with my manager. He is not a leader in the true sense of the word of collaborating to strive with his team for the most efficient result. I used to work with a mentor who stayed for however long it took with his team and he and I coded late nights over Chinese food in the office and he lived two hours away and had a family. I found him and still find him to be a rare commodity.

In the case of my manager.....
He leaves early and he doesn't care about whatever is encountered with said project so long as it is off his project list. Then he doesn't spend a window of time giving and outlining proper requirements. If you are extracting data which views are you using or what tables an on what server ? You have to pry this information out of him and he usually gets defensive, upset and confrontational because it is his expectation( a false one) that you would have memorized the entire database schema from x servers we have after I have being worked there for x years. In my case going on 2 years.

That would be a fair request if we had a database schema in existence that we had say in Visio, UML or whatever that outlined every current project residing in production and within our test environments and what was running from each database, current issues, deliverable dates and so on.

But we don't have that and the programmers here program on the fly and sent code directly into production which flies in the face of every methodology I have learned since becoming a developer over 10 years ago. Where are the unit test cases and the documentation ? They are nowhere to be found and I code for a financial institution where you would think structures and protocols would be really tight and these scenarios couldn't and shouldn't even remotely happen.

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Originally Posted by techgnome

3) that's because for too long there were "programmer analysts" ... I used to be one... it's only been in the last 5 years or so that it's being recognized that developers don't necessarily understand the business enough to get what the users are saying. Mean while, the users don't speak "geek" either.

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I wasn't really getting the point of this item until I read this. I AM a programmer analyst both in title and fact, by this definition. One of the keys to my getting my current job was that I had been on the other side for an entire career. When I talk to the users group, I listen to what they have to say, but I can provide input that they haven't even thought of, since I've been in their field longer than many of them have, though I now write programs for them.

@Christopher_Arm: Sounds like you have some bad (and bizarre) management. Good to have a rant, as you may not be able to do more than that. However, unit tests and documentation are often jettisoned on smaller projects or pressure projects. After all, in my experience, programmers tend to write terribly, so their documentation is often nearly worthless.

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Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker

I wasn't really getting the point of this item until I read this. I AM a programmer analyst both in title and fact, by this definition. One of the keys to my getting my current job was that I had been on the other side for an entire career. When I talk to the users group, I listen to what they have to say, but I can provide input that they haven't even thought of, since I've been in their field longer than many of them have, though I now write programs for them.

@Christopher_Arm: Sounds like you have some bad (and bizarre) management. Good to have a rant, as you may not be able to do more than that. However, unit tests and documentation are often jettisoned on smaller projects or pressure projects. After all, in my experience, programmers tend to write terribly, so their documentation is often nearly worthless.

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In your case, it works... BUT ONLY because you came from that field. Most developers don't. I played programmer analyst in the military... it's a given. Everyone pretty much knows how that works, so that wasn't a problem. At my last job, when I started there, I was programmer analyst again... learned a lot about the energy industry, it was the only way we could make it work, but as we got more clients and the intricacies of the industry became more complex, it was harder for the developers to keep up with that... plus finding new developers with energy industry exposure is not easy, so we had to find a way to isolate the developers from the users a bit more... enter the Business Analysts, exit Programmer Analyst, re-enter Programmer. I'm guessing that your shop and organization is small enough that it works. Unfortunately in many cases it doesn't.

-tg

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Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker

I wasn't really getting the point of this item until I read this. I AM a programmer analyst both in title and fact, by this definition. One of the keys to my getting my current job was that I had been on the other side for an entire career. When I talk to the users group, I listen to what they have to say, but I can provide input that they haven't even thought of, since I've been in their field longer than many of them have, though I now write programs for them.

@Christopher_Arm: Sounds like you have some bad (and bizarre) management. Good to have a rant, as you may not be able to do more than that. However, unit tests and documentation are often jettisoned on smaller projects or pressure projects. After all, in my experience, programmers tend to write terribly, so their documentation is often nearly worthless.

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Indeed. I got taken off a project by my manager who did not deem the results fast enough only to be put back on it again asking if I could give him the results by the end of the day. I couldn't promise that as I had no requirements to work off of save whatever I had cobbled together. To make an assurance by end of the day without the certainty of the results and proper testing supplementing coding practices has only one outcome and that is failure or the unknown. In fact that is a guaranteed set up to fail as it promotes erratic, unorthodox and "on the fly"maverick programming. The majority of my co-workers do this type of programming in our shop and it can and does lead to problems in the long term while getting the results in the short term.


And this frustrates my manager ultimately and the thing of it is he was a programmer some years back albeit from what one of colleagues shared with me upon his leaving the company after 3 months a poor one who used spaghetti code.

How he arrived at a position of management of IT Development and has maintained said position for 3 years I will never understand. And now I am forced to document my own work to protect my job while I have it for the time being as I have been written up for lack of performance just recently due to this scenario and others like it. This project with the proper requirements and specifications should have taken two weeks at the outside as this is creating stored procedures driving a report with monthly data which must be pinpoint accurate. But because of the lack of all of those I am still working on said project three months later.

Normally I wouldn't care about a situation like this one by myself some years ago. I normally save a reserve amount of money and I would either resign my position for another that I would acquire or wait for the axe to fall. But with the economy being the way it is currently this is not one where a job presents itself right away.

And my life has changed from a few years ago being a bachelor with no responsibilities save my own, I have a 9 month old son now and one on the way. My manager's failure to take accountability in not providing proper requirements and specifications and turning up the pressure on me to produce something from nothing will possibly and more than likely affect them. And that's what bothers me most and is the source of my rant.

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Originally Posted by Christopher_Arm

How he arrived at a position of management of IT Development and has maintained said position for 3 years I will never understand.

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It's the Dilbert Principle: You can't promote the ones who do good work, because they are too critical where they are at, so promote the others.

Something along those lines: Those who can, do.... those who can't get promoted to management. Although, we seem to be the exception around here.... a lot of our management were doers (and many still are doers) ... which feels a bit weird. that means to maintain the balance, there's a company out there with incompetent developers and managers. Scarry.

-tg

Amazing. A pyramid business model that justifies incompetence and lack of accountability up at the top pf pyramid while the people at the bottom bear all of the weight with coding for more stress, more headache, less sleep and less of a paycheck than the people above. And yet if not for us their jobs would not be necessary and rendered obsolete since management "babysits" over the developers. It is confirming with me that within a few years I want to be done with technology and programming as it is a thankless existence and these scenarios I have outlined are becoming the norm.

vb Code:

if (ManagementReallySucks Or PoliticsRunsTheShop) Then
    Select Case (Situation)
        Case ReallyEnjoyWork, IAmIndespensibleToTheShop, NoJobsExistAnywhereElse
              HunkerDownAndHangInThere()
        Case Else
              PolishResume()
              PostResumeToWorld()
              ExitASAP()
    End Select
End If

No I have come to this decision a long time ago it seems from my standpoint.

I graduated from a college where I had low math scores in calculus and differential equations so when my undergraduate counselor spoke with me he told me I 'd be better suited as a lawyer, or as a psychologist.

What I did since I was lazy and discouraged at that time in my life was to redouble my efforts, practically live at the library and get tutoring and apply more disciplined time at study and concentrating on what I was doing as I paid my way through college and it was on my dollar and it paid off and I graduate with my peers in Computer Science. I beat every obstacle that stood in my way that said you can't do this and I rose in my field over time.

Then I came to find the academic world and the corporate word of IT were like night and day. And the expectations of the latter were far greater so I strove to be the best and adapt and learn in regards to the technology and I became quite adept over the years in programming and the logic that goes into scaled projects.

With that said in my tenure I have noticed as a black man in the United States working in New York City no less that I have maybe seen three programmers in my ten years of working that are minorities( black, latino). And even looking back about nine years or so when I first started out before the year 2000 maybe in 1998, I saw more causcasians occupying the roles of analysis, programming, network engineering, consulting, and the majority were managers.

Now the playing field has changed considerably after the dot.com bubble burst.

And of those the majority who have come to dominate the field are predominantly Russian,Middle Eastern, East Indian or Pakistani, and or Asian respectively Japanese or Chinese.

And I have come to find that from my own opinions cultivated over time ( informed or speculative) that America has long since lost its competitive edge in producing students in the inner cities who excel in the areas of math and the sciences to have those equal areas of opportunity open to them. And as a result this is locked away from them. Such as the realm of computer science. And if you have no edge to compete then what right do you have to complain ?

And those who have emigrated here have seized those opportunities and made the fullest use of them so this can not be begrudged because they are good at what they do technically. And they speak with the expertise that is largely absent in higher circles of management and clients which is occupied by other ethnicities( which are largely dominated by circles of whites, blacks and latinos in my workplace).And they have earned a respect that is seldom accorded and they fill a void in this country.

However, I think is fair to say that outsourcing such as it is exists today it the least of our worries as it seems the subset of non-immigrants able to compete in their own nation with all of the advantages over their overseas counterparts do not seem to be able to cut the mustard. Or even open the refrigerator to get to the mustard.

And so I represent a small representative of what is essentially almost non-existent. A generation of american born students who applied themselves after a fashion to be fairly competent in information technology and speak in the language of the information age so as to open doors for themselves.

But now I savor my victory over adversity less as it is now less about merit and effort spent at working harder and smarter and more about social networks and politicking. It is about those who dodge accountability and those who takes the bullet for someone 's else failures. It is about back stabbing and people who steal code from the web instead of innovate or do themselves to get faster results. Rather than the alternative of working and understanding what it took to produce said results.

It is about not caring how those results were obtained but merely that the results are present. It is about being only as good at your latest project as opposed to sleepless night spent working and doing your best and being told from someone who has no technical proficiency but all of the authority that you aren't good enough to measure up. It is about people who get certified with Microsoft via Prometric or who have 3.6 GPA'S graduating college that can not perform when they are assigned a task as well as the non-certified person who has a 2.7 GPA and yet employers use that are a criteria/wedge to pre-empt and select a small pool of programmers for a job. And yet those are the people chosen and hired nonetheless.

"Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference."

I prefer:
"Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to hide the bodies properly of those who pissed me off."

;) :P

Even still... there are times when you have to say enough is enough and buck the system. That's exactly what I DIDN'T do at my last job. I "accepted" the things I couldn't change.... I changed what I could (which wasn't much) ... and it took its toll on me. Since switching jobs, I've lost 10+ pounds (in 6 months)... blood pressure is waaaay, way down... and I can sleep at night again.

-tg

"Even still... there are times when you have to say enough is enough and buck the system. That's exactly what I DIDN'T do at my last job. I "accepted" the things I couldn't change.... I changed what I could (which wasn't much) ... and it took its toll on me. Since switching jobs, I've lost 10+ pounds (in 6 months)... blood pressure is waaaay, way down... and I can sleep at night again."

I think you always had the ability to quit, so your failure was in not knowing the difference.

You both are right in your observations. I need to change jobs as it is highly unlikely anything will change where management is concerned. The documentation of every project I worked on and the issues I encountered due to my thread topic I presented to my boss's boss the Chief Technical Officer of the department is more than likely buried in red tape.
Because I have to remember that she hired him, therefore it would reflect long standing poor business decision and judgement on her part to have let him run the department into the ground for 3 years. So it is in her best interests not to acknowledge what I have written( all 10 pages, dated discussing details and setback due to lack of information/ cooperation) in this regard and yet my mandate to improve via his improvement plan is set for the 1st of June with an or else caviat. I have to leave for my health, for my sanity and the sake of my children.

The problem is the economy isn't helping and even though I have had a few bites time is growing short. I have a little over two months between now and then to escape this place.

when you have two kids and a spouse to support, over 10k in medical bills in a sinking economy.... then we can talk about having choices. I'd been looking (admitedly not actively) for about 2 years)... If I thought I could have made it work, I would have switched careers about a year and a half ago. Gone to work for the railroad as a switchman.... but the reduction in pay wouldn't allow for it.

Christopher - willing to relocate? What is your skillset? believe it or not, there are some that are in high demand around here - and the cost of living is much less than it would be in the NYC area.

-tg

I feel your pain about the economy and jobs.

I probably have been at this a lot longer than you, and have been lucky in that most of my jobs had technical people as good or better than myself with good management.
BUT...
I learned that when I was unhappy with a job, that sometimes you just have to buck-up and do the job to the level you are comfortable with, until you can change. I tried giving less than was expected and got fired and quitting without another job, both of which I found to be unhappy experiences.

If it would make you feel better I could tell you my story about job hunting in the current environment.

Edit: Back in the early 70's, between programming jobs, I did work for the Missouri Pacific RR as a brakeman. I liked it, just not as much as computers and networks.

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I learned that when I was unhappy with a job, that sometimes you just have to buck-up and do the job to the level you are comfortable with, until you can change.

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Yeah, that is basically what I was trying to do... unfortunately (or fortunately as it were)... I got forced into the situation... it didn't help that I kept hearing reports of people who were out 6 months before finding a job. And I realize that I was fortunate enough to only be out of commission for 4 weeks - I'm STILL getting calls and I pulled my resume months ago... Part of the reason I stayed as long as I did, keeping my nose to the grind stone as it were, was that I was also considering relocating to be closer to family. And I wanted to make sure I had something lined up and promising before leaving... but that got taken out of my hands. ces la vi. (is that right? don't really know).

If you were doing programming jobs in the early 70's then, yes, you've been at this longer than I.... I was only born in the early 70's ... ;)

-tg

Try late 60's. I really have been lucky, and humbled. The events of the past 10 months have caused a great deal of reflection, on many aspects of my life.

So Christopher, the bad is needed so you will appreciate the good. Do not allow the bad to consume more of your life than you would a really good situation.

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Originally Posted by techgnome

when you have two kids and a spouse to support, over 10k in medical bills in a sinking economy.... then we can talk about having choices. I'd been looking (admitedly not actively) for about 2 years)... If I thought I could have made it work, I would have switched careers about a year and a half ago. Gone to work for the railroad as a switchman.... but the reduction in pay wouldn't allow for it.

Christopher - willing to relocate? What is your skillset? believe it or not, there are some that are in high demand around here - and the cost of living is much less than it would be in the NYC area.

-tg

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I exist in three worlds now oddly enough. And its tiring. I only see my son and girlfriend on the weekends. I work on Wall Street..hint of irony there. I live in the Bronx. I just bought a condo to be closer to my girlfriend and son and one in the oven and her family who live in Woodbury Ct. So in that sense I have already relocated to Connecticut. Ideally, a job opening up in Westchester, White Plains, Connecticut would be grand. Unfortunately not many jobs are available in those communities so I have expanded my search to New Jersey, Queens and wherever else a job might be that meets my Visual Basic, ASP.Net C #, SQL and Crystal Reports background.

Chris - I sent you a PM.

-tg

I 've sent you a response PM.

I must say that I have learned that within this thread you never realize that others suffer silently with you in your profession until you start a thread like this one. I also should say that when faced down with job loss due to unreasonable environments and people that inhabit them that cause stress and make you worry about your families security is new for me being a new parent, with new concerns you never know what strength or whatever yo have to find within yourself to persevere.

I just bought a condo( mortgage) and I recently bought a car (a new one hence a car loan) to be closer to my new family. Only three years ago or thereabouts, I was a single man that could have walked away indifferently from all of this and I would have needed to find a way to cope or escape with such urgency.

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Originally Posted by dbasnett

"Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference."

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I have a poster with that quote on it.

As said earlier in the thread this is easily said as a single man without obligations, expenses or worries beyond himself. But when you have children one 10 month old and another baby on the way both of whom are depending on your finances to survive in addition to yourself and a new home and a car then this cliche starts running on empty really fast.
I have observed either you make opportunities happen for yourself by being proactive or you succumb to the powers that be and accept your fate. Just like with coding you must change or die from a career standpoint. This means re-inventing yourself and your circumstances even in hard times.

I have seen the acts of complacency and fear of the unknown keep people in jobs and careers that were causing them ulcers and high blood pressure and aged prematurely under bitter feelings for years. To stay in a job even without threat where coding practices like these are going on is a disastrous choice. Because eventually or inevitably take your pick a catastrophe will arise and you don't want to be around when the blameshifting happens and you become the scapegoat.

@Chris - you are not the first at this rodeo. A lot of us have been there, or are there. I'd swap with you in a "heartbeat" ;)

When I posted that famous quotation, I didn't say it was easy. It was meant to point you at some obvious truth's.

I hate my job.
Quit.
I can't quit because of a,b,c.
Ok, don't quit. Change the job
I can't because of a,b,c
Ok, accept it and move along.

When you get my age you will have done this more than once. Quit or accept it, but beating yourself up in a constant emotional loop will make you old quick.

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Originally Posted by techgnome

ces la vi. (is that right? don't really know).

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Close: C'est la vie.

I hate my job.
Quit.
I can't quit because of a,b,c.
Ok, don't quit. Change the job
I can't because of a,b,c
Ok, accept it and move along. <--- in my case, that led to cynicism and a progressing poor attitude... and fed the cycle of hating my job. It wasn't fun anymore, I didn't enjoy it. there were so many ways we could have cut costs, and development time and produced a better software, but the changes were met with the usual political muckity muck going on. In my case, I had trouble changing the job in that there's only so much I can do before word comes back around... once I was "free" of that restriction, it wasn't so hard. Plus I was thinking about moving to the coast, which isn't somehting you "just" do... I wish it were though.

-tg

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Originally Posted by dbasnett

@Chris - you are not the first at this rodeo. A lot of us have been there, or are there. I'd swap with you in a "heartbeat" ;)

When I posted that famous quotation, I didn't say it was easy. It was meant to point you at some obvious truth's.

I hate my job.
Quit.
I can't quit because of a,b,c.
Ok, don't quit. Change the job
I can't because of a,b,c
Ok, accept it and move along.

When you get my age you will have done this more than once. Quit or accept it, but beating yourself up in a constant emotional loop will make you old quick.

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Agreed. And thanks but what chafes me is the b.s of not taking responsibility for the inefficiency. And turning it back to me when I am trying to roll a boulder uphill. It offends me on a professional level and I take my professional reputation seriously.

I mean if you expect me to generate x crystal reports for a user creating a stored procedure wouldn't I need requirements such as the proper database tables or views. Instead of telling I 've been here for two years I should know every server and every database that sits on them production or otherwise. I was hired as a programmer, not as an analyst or as a DBA and even it is perfectly reasonable to be provided with the basic level of information to get the work done without the yelling or the lecturing. If you don't have a database schema that I can reference indicates what views or tables control what reports or web applications all this means is that this will repeat over and over again.

Why am I going over 50 + almost investigating more than 100 tables through trial and error to build what on a basic level could have been provided in the first place ? Why am I being told that instead of cutting and pasting said result set taken from the query analyzer to an excel spreadsheet for quick evaluation by the user when I email it to them that instead I must deliver the stored procedures to a colleague who will sit on it for hour either a) because he has work that is priority or b) because it is not in his self interest or both and so once mapped to the database I must map the fields and parameters to the report and then generate the report and export it to PDF format and then e-mail to the user and if it is incorrect and needs modification based on lack of requirements to start the process all over again.

How logical is that exactly ? Not very logical.

Going from a to z to get to b when from a logical standpoint what I was originally doing made sense going directly from a to b.

Then he wants me to speak less to the client/user by phone and correspond only through e-mails when largely the bulk of my progress was done using both that way the user point of contact and I bounced ideas off one another and results were turned around faster. Again there is a disconnect in terms of procedure and it would seem my ability to get the work done is being diminshed by the very manager that is supposed to help make sure it gets implemented. And this is what had turned one or two weeks worth of work in three months worth of work and back and forth.

And it is because of similar scenarios like this with web applications as well and other scenarios which he believed justified his writing me up. He dodges the accountability of his position and frankly he never should have been promoted to manager. But that is moot because regardless of what I think should be, he occupies that position and will be there after I am gone.

Do you know I have never been written up in any job I have ever held as a programmer, consultant in 10 years of programming ? My work ethic is strong and I bust my tail in my efforts at times where it is called for during crunch time because that is what is necessary in a crisis.

I will normally stay until 8pm at night until 2 am the morning for a job to get it done. While my antagonist is home in bed or relaxing or doing whatever. And this is from a 9am - 5 pm job .And even then I work smart not just hard. I look for the most efficient alternative with the quickest turnaround that gets the results that are mandated to received. So I am ticked at the injustice of it all. That poor management trumps and wins out against hard work yet again. And that my family is now in the cross hairs with me this time.

My initial requests for web applications when I started at the company were verbal with five sentence bullet point emails on average with very little specifications, always subject to change when the manager visited my cubicle.

I would have to modify code of application five times over because it didn't meet his vision and then I would get berated because each time I had to make modifications it wasn't fast enough for him based on the original timeline set. If extensive changes are required in functionality of an application doesn't the timeline need to be reassessed ? How can you use that as a basis for saying my .NET skills need to improve especially when the comment isn't qualified or specific comments about specific projects are not appended to that assessment.:mad:

Time to quit. Find any job that will satisfy your salary requirements, give them 2 weeks notice and quit. Find your dream job later.

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Originally Posted by dbasnett

Time to quit. Find any job that will satisfy your salary requirements, give them 2 weeks notice and quit. Find your dream job later.

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I am not looking for a dream job only a programming job that even if it didn't meet my salary requirements that it had semi-decent benefits. In this recession I can not afford to be too selective or choosy. Mopping toilets and restrooms would be better than this job and I did that many years ago working as a store clerk/ cashier to pay my way through college.

I'll get you that list I mentioned to you sometime tonight. I don't know how much help they will be, but hopefully something will come out of it.

-tg

I'm going to risk the wrath of the forums by saying that actually I do think a good programmer should be a bit of a business analyst. They should be a bit of a project manager and a bit of a politician too. I seem to have spent most of my career picking up the pieces behind programmers who didn't have these skills. I repeatedly see very clever code which performs ultra fast and has a marvelous look and feel but the client is tearing their hair out because it's not fit for purpose, it's hopelessly late and no-one's told them what the hell has been going on for the last six months. All that clever programming matters for nought because it doesn't deliver to the client what they want. I've been extremely successful (forgive my arrogance here but I really have) in turning these accounts round, not because I'm a better coder than the guy who went before me but because I apply some common sense and insight.

You could argue that the roles should be separated so that there's a separate analyst but, when I've worked in that scenario, I've invariably found them to be little more than a barrier to communication. They're just another link in the chain of chinese whispers that leads to the important information getting lost before it reaches me. Let me at the users, I say. If I can sit with them I can gain some insight into what they're actually trying to achieve - and that's often not reflected in the formal requirements I'd get otherwise. I can bring my own ideas and suggestions to the table and, because I understand the limitations of the technologies I work with (something very few business analysts seem to do) I can spot potential problems at an earlier stage.

I also don't think you need to have experience in a particular industry before you start programming for it. I've worked on examinations systems, nursing home booking systems, stock control systems, customer management systems and all sorts of other areas. I've worked in automotive, high street retail, education, home improvement... I didn't understand these formats and industries when I started in them but if you start by getting your head around what the clients trying to achieve and then start applying some common sense to the problems it's really not that hard to understand their requirements. You have to be willing to learn from your client though.

Anyway, that aside, Chris, I would look to move if I were you. You're obviously not happy there (and from the sounds of your boss I'm not surprised) and staying around won't help. I've tried to stick it out in jobs where I wasn't happy before and the truth is your just delaying the inevitable. It's quite clear that both your boss and your users are using you as the whipping boy right now and that's probably not going to change. You're going to get blamed for everything that gos wrong whether it's your fault or not and eventually your reputation and self esteem will be in tatters. That will only serve to make it much harder to land a decent job when the time finally comes and if you're the whipping boy it almost certainly will the first time the company decides they need to make a saving. We're lucky in that programming jobs tend to be pretty easy to find, even in times of recession. Just be realistic about your expectations and you shouldn't really struggle to find something that'll leave you much happier. To paraphrase Confucious "A man who ejoys his job will never work another day in his life"



edit>>Just to add, I doubt your problem truly is that you're being asked to be an analyst. Reading between the lines I suspect your real problem is that you're being used as the whipping boy. From some of the stuff you've put you've clearly tried to communicate with the users and tried to get at what they want. The problem is that they don't really understand the problem and just want you to provide a solution to a problem they themselves can't define and don't want to spend the time examining. They then blame you for failure to deliver a soluttion to the problem that nobody truly understands. I've been in that exact situation - there is no answer to it.

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Originally Posted by Christopher_Arm

Agreed. And thanks but what chafes me is the b.s of not taking responsibility for the inefficiency. And turning it back to me when I am trying to roll a boulder uphill. It offends me on a professional level and I take my professional reputation seriously...

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Get out of there ASAP. I've seen (and been in) some pretty disfunctional shops before but what you describe is complete mahem. As was said earlier, don't worry about a "dream" job, just find something else before you go completely nuts.

-Max

I would think thay my problem is that my manager as a whole has failed to put into place basic procedures for delivering assigments.
And as result of the lack of procedures/specifications, in terms of accountability and responsibility from the managerial side of things he dodges and shirks off putting the onus and all of the load on his development team.
I have a manager that quite simply does not manage anything.

We have a ticketing system through which we receive projects, but beyond that no specifications are provided and those that we do get have gaping holes, inconsistencies and ambiguities.

There is no database schema to indicate what projects sit on what databases and on what servers, so when users call up demanding where x project is and the manager was working exclusively on this we not only don't have permissions but also we don't know what the project is or the state of progress of said project.

My problem is that when I deliver a working application to my manager not only upon delivering saying it doesn't meet his expectations because I had to modify it on the fly several times due to verbal communications over my cubicle which should never be the case. It should be in writing with a modified spec laid out so that clarification is not only key but that several months down the line someone can look at the steps that were taken so that a solution can be replicated if needed.

But worse I delivered a project to him only to find it hadn't been delivered to the user/client for 7 months. And when the user came to my desk I was baffled but when he was confronted he said the project didn't work and I tested this in front of him. So I could infer that a) some bugs appeared later on in said project but if that were the case would you wait seven months until the CEO wants this himself ? or b) he is being deceptive and or evasive but to what end I can not fathom. It struck me as more of a covering your ass technique that I was witness to that day.

As for that a programmer needs to be a politician, a manager, and an analyst. I do not believe this to be so. I was hired to get results by coding solutions in the proper way using the proper methods. If I needed to be a project manager and a programmer then I would not need the one I have as his position would be irrelevant and redundant and not only that but it should have been placed in the job description from day one if that were the requirement.
I think it is fair to say that you need to be aware of social dynamics and the political structure as it exists in said company, therefore you need to have political awareness. But I think you can cultivate that awareness without entrenching yourself in that melodrama. If it was my aim to be a politician then being an executive officer, vice president of a company division well beyond my manager's would be my aspiration.

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Originally Posted by Max Peck

Get out of there ASAP. I've seen (and been in) some pretty disfunctional shops before but what you describe is complete mahem. As was said earlier, don't worry about a "dream" job, just find something else before you go completely nuts.

-Max

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Oh good god....yes I intend to hopefully, the powers that be willing.

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Originally Posted by funky

I'm going to risk the wrath of the forums by saying that actually I do think a good programmer should be a bit of a business analyst. They should be a bit of a project manager and a bit of a politician too. I seem to have spent most of my career picking up the pieces behind programmers who didn't have these skills. I repeatedly see very clever code which performs ultra fast and has a marvelous look and feel but the client is tearing their hair out because it's not fit for purpose, it's hopelessly late and no-one's told them what the hell has been going on for the last six months. All that clever programming matters for nought because it doesn't deliver to the client what they want. I've been extremely successful (forgive my arrogance here but I really have) in turning these accounts round, not because I'm a better coder than the guy who went before me but because I apply some common sense and insight.

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Yes... and no... that used to be the senario at my previous job... the developers were the analysts. And for a number of years that worked. But the process broke down when the developers could no longer do thier job because the industry became more complicated and we ended up spending more time talking to clients than we were developing. Things became backlogged. The only solution was to separate the roles and more clearly define what the business analysts did. It turned out to be good and bad. Good in that all of our clients needs and wants were then funneled through a single point of contact who could then see the big pcture and know if/when there would be conflicting requirements from different clients. It was good because it provided a much needed buffer between the developers and the client managers - who all see their client's needs as being top priority. It was bad because the BA was so..... Retentive that you couldn't sneeze w/o getting a change order. The BA also had a nasty habit of trying to insert technical requirements into the business document (something I fought against and won 9 times of 10).

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Originally Posted by funky

You could argue that the roles should be separated so that there's a separate analyst but, when I've worked in that scenario, I've invariably found them to be little more than a barrier to communication. They're just another link in the chain of chinese whispers that leads to the important information getting lost before it reaches me. Let me at the users, I say. If I can sit with them I can gain some insight into what they're actually trying to achieve - and that's often not reflected in the formal requirements I'd get otherwise. I can bring my own ideas and suggestions to the table and, because I understand the limitations of the technologies I work with (something very few business analysts seem to do) I can spot potential problems at an earlier stage.

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That's what the design phase is for... the BA gives you the business requirements (sans any technical requirements) and the design is supposed to say OK, here the business requirements, here's how we are going to achieve that technically. But it also depends on the industry and the clientel. We dealt with outside customers. More often than not, potential clients want the business documents to see what the system does. They don't care how the engine was put together, they just want to know what the horsepower and towing capabilities are.

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Originally Posted by funky

I also don't think you need to have experience in a particular industry before you start programming for it. I've worked on examinations systems, nursing home booking systems, stock control systems, customer management systems and all sorts of other areas. I've worked in automotive, high street retail, education, home improvement... I didn't understand these formats and industries when I started in them but if you start by getting your head around what the clients trying to achieve and then start applying some common sense to the problems it's really not that hard to understand their requirements. You have to be willing to learn from your client though.

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I don't think you need to have experience in a particular field either, but it helps.... I now know waaaay more about the energy industry than I've ever knonw, and I look at my bill differently now too. And now I get to learn about the construction industry. but even if you know bupkiss before starting, you should know SOMETHING eventually. It's one of the things I'm trying to get training on now where I'm at. I want to know how this all goes together.

-tg

The bottom line is that you have bad managers out there just like bad workers in the programming industry. And some of which are so bad as to make your job quite literally toxic and unhealthy to be at.

The main difference in the two categories is that bad workers can be ferreted out and and eventually terminated by case building and fact finding over time establishing patterns of inefficiency and incompetence in the field.

Whereas, managers I have observed incomptent or unqualified or worse are above that chain of evaluation because they are the evaluators in most cases and they don't have to be held accountable in most instances especially since they delegate their authority for the most part so it would be hard to trace their hand or impact in x project.

And number two is that all managers I have worked for in my entire history in this field...are entrenched in their positions meaning you would have to make a pretty damn near flawless case to remove them from their position whereas with an employee it is at will and without reason as the legalese under the application for employment denotes.

I have seen whole departments cut down their development staff to near nothing( and some of them were really good at what they did) and some that have gotten rid of all of their team to rebuild it from scratch only to keep the do-nothing administrative manager around who was immune to the firing.

And they get the bigger checks and the greater rewards for essentially producing and creating nothing save for standing on the backs of those that do and they take the credit.

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Originally Posted by techgnome

Yes... and no... that used to be the senario at my previous job... the developers were the analysts. And for a number of years that worked. But the process broke down when the developers could no longer do thier job because the industry became more complicated and we ended up spending more time talking to clients than we were developing. Things became backlogged. The only solution was to separate the roles and more clearly define what the business analysts did. It turned out to be good and bad. Good in that all of our clients needs and wants were then funneled through a single point of contact who could then see the big pcture and know if/when there would be conflicting requirements from different clients. It was good because it provided a much needed buffer between the developers and the client managers - who all see their client's needs as being top priority. It was bad because the BA was so..... Retentive that you couldn't sneeze w/o getting a change order. The BA also had a nasty habit of trying to insert technical requirements into the business document (something I fought against and won 9 times of 10).


That's what the design phase is for... the BA gives you the business requirements (sans any technical requirements) and the design is supposed to say OK, here the business requirements, here's how we are going to achieve that technically. But it also depends on the industry and the clientel. We dealt with outside customers. More often than not, potential clients want the business documents to see what the system does. They don't care how the engine was put together, they just want to know what the horsepower and towing capabilities are.


I don't think you need to have experience in a particular field either, but it helps.... I now know waaaay more about the energy industry than I've ever knonw, and I look at my bill differently now too. And now I get to learn about the construction industry. but even if you know bupkiss before starting, you should know SOMETHING eventually. It's one of the things I'm trying to get training on now where I'm at. I want to know how this all goes together.

-tg

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Agreed. I am being paid to do all of that on a meager programmer's salary that I am getting at this job which a couple thousand dollars shy of the national average, when in fact I should be getting paid to do three jobs. Or at least the average net value of the three jobs in terms of salary as I am building the requirments from the ground up, speaking with users as a go between, coding and then reporting my results back and forth. And the time it is taking to implement this task were they billable like in a consultancy I would be making a lot of money right now.

Chris,

There are a couple of books you really ought to read.

1) The Peter Principle
2) The Dilbert Principle

Both of them shed a great deal of light on the subject of management incompetence. The 2nd of the two does so with a little humor thrown in. Sounds like you could really use a mental break right now. You're too busy analyzing a hopeless situation here. About the best you can do, really, is adapt or find another situation.

-Max :D

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Originally Posted by Max Peck

Chris,

There are a couple of books you really ought to read.

1) The Peter Principle
2) The Dilbert Principle

Both of them shed a great deal of light on the subject of management incompetence. The 2nd of the two does so with a little humor thrown in. Sounds like you could really use a mental break right now. You're too busy analyzing a hopeless situation here. About the best you can do, really, is adapt or find another situation.

-Max :D

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Adaption is out since I am under the gun with the trigger about to be pulled by June and since under my original job application has legalese like "at will employment" and "terminate without reason".

I can only do what I have been doing and that is to market my skills elsewhere and I have put out my updated resume since late October/ early November 2008 if I recollect. I got a few bites but then these jobs placed hiring freezes or hired someone else. I have one bite recently and the interview went well but they are interviewing a large pool of candidates and although impressed by me they said they would get back to me.
I will read your book suggestions. Ideally though my manager should have read the Pragmatic Programmer.:)

Got the Dilbert principle today. Great book.:thumb:

I read the book" The Dilbert Principle" and it doesn't change my perspective at all. My boss is incompetent and does not take accountability for himself and blames others for late projects when there are no instructions or specs given by him to get the work done on a timely basis. If anything it makes me realize there is s distinc difference between leaders and managers. Those who manage from a position of authority are often times incapable of leadership.

I am taking the steps to get myself out of this job by applying to other programming jobs on a near daily basis. It might not come fast enough though as he has written me up with the or else that trails off by June. So I have secured some part time work in the Army Reserve and past that I am trying to be hopeful.

update: I am still at my job so that is a good thing.:D

I am still stressed as I indicated earlier with the same infighting( I am documenting everything that happens) so that is in the minus column. All in all I should be happy the recession hasn't cost me my job yet. There is no worse inner feeling for a man than one who can not feed or support his family.