Breaking News -- Rudy hints at getting out!!!!!
If it is true, then it is one Phony down and one to go!!!!
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Breaking News -- Rudy hints at getting out!!!!!
If it is true, then it is one Phony down and one to go!!!!
He should have kept the "Comb-over"
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:...e/giuliani.jpg
Once he loses in FL, he can be officially credited with the stupidest campaign in recent history.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
No, I will officially credit him right now based upon some of his more questionable decisions:
Dressing in drag and abandoning the comb over:
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:...liani_drag.jpg http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:...520dancing.jpg http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:...1/Giuliani.jpg
and his dumbest mistake, Bernard Kerik
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:...k_vl.widec.jpg http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:...1/33721022.jpg
Very early voting (one small country) has him a respectable third.
Goodbye Rudy, Goodbye Rudy, Goodbye Rudy, I love to see you go!!!!!
With 51% percent of the precincts reporting, Rudy is a distant 3rd with 15% of the vote.
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:...i-headslap.JPG
Why did I dress up like a woman?
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:...20Giuliani.jpg
You just can't make this stuff up. Rudy to endorse McCain as early as Wednesday.
Bye Bye Rudy!!!
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:...avegoodbye.jpghttp://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:...ages/assad.jpghttp://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:...r0_354811a.jpghttp://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:...%2520GUY24.jpghttp://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:...ildrenKM39.jpghttp://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:...83908_2328.jpghttp://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:...intonswalk.jpg
Yeah hes gone but hes likely to support someone worse.....John McCain.
X
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xanith
Nobody is worse than Rudy, I lived under his reign for 8 long years!!!
Good riddance to Bad Rubbish!!!!!
I'm still trying to figure out what you didnt like about the guy. I was never a Rudy supporter but I did see he had some strong points. I know the guy was very polerizing for people in New York and its quite obvious that you hate the guy, but he did cut taxes and clean up the city rather well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Gambo
And McCain is worse. I mean we are going to have a choice between Hillary and McCain? Thats not a choice, thats a ticket.
X
Your country has an electoral system that was specifically designed to keep power concentrated in the hands of a few select rich people while maintaining a pretense of democratic choice for the rest of the population and for over 200 years has been doing exactly what it has been designed to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xanith
The nature of your comment suggests that at some previous point in history you actually had some form of choice and your vote somehow mattered. When was that?
Ouch... What perfectly enlightened country do you happen to be from, eh? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer
I can name quite a few examples of people who grew up dirt poor in the US who became very prominent and powerful political figures. I would even argue that it's far more likely to happen here in the US than anywhere else in the world. Maybe you just watch too much CNN...
Really? I always got the impression that US elections where more about who can raise the most money for advertising...... many other countries have very strict limits on political spending, thus evening out the playing fields....Quote:
Originally Posted by homer13j
Furthermore, those countries that have a free higher education system are far more likely to provide political opportunities to "dirt poor" citizens by allowing them to persue any career they wish. Be it doctor, lawyer or even computer programmer. Given that a good education is often (but not always :) ) linked to political life, this would appear to be another deciding factor in favour of other countries having more political opportunities... but oh, hang on, I forgot, America is the land of the free, isn't it ;) How silly of me to question that :)
Don't forget, if it wasn't for the USA, a lot of countries today would be speaking German, Russian, or some sort of Middle Eastern Dialect, eh SurfDemon? ;) I guess during the period of 1940 to 1945 our political system was functioning very efficiently, eh SurfDemon.Quote:
Originally Posted by SurfDemon
Haha you think its free higher education huh? A lot of these socialistic countries that you are talking about have tax rates upwards of 40-60%. When will people learn that nothing is free, everything is getting paid for one way or another. I for one would rather have the choice to go to any college I want, paying as much or as little as I decide, not what the government decides.Quote:
Originally Posted by SurfDemon
And even the very poor in the US can get a great college education. There are so many grants, scholarships, and low interest loans available to those that work hard and get good grades in high school (which is “free” for everyone in the US).
There is a reason why people from all over the world come to the US for higher education, even though it is not “free”. I guess it’s the same reason why people come to the US for medical care, the “free” education that other countries doctors receive is just not the same as it is here in the US.
X
:) Riiiiggghht. So a country with free eduction is a socialist country now is it? Funny definition, but there you go.... funny a quick glance at that socialist country of Britain shows that it's tax rate is 22% up to about $100,000. Which if I'm not mistaken is lower than the US tax rate for a comparable income.... strangely enough, it also has free medicine..... when will you stop harping on about that? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Xanith
Oh hang, that's all very socialist isn't it? I get the impression that you think if anyone does anything different from the US, then it's "socialist". You see, it's very simple. Free higher education equals higher earning workers. Higher earning workers bring money into the country and pay a percentage of it in taxes. I have no doubt that the British government got the cost of my Computer degree back many times over in taxes... (at 22%), rather than if I had stuck to a lower paying job....
I'm curious. What's your policy on privatising other aspects of public service? Or is it just "Socialist" when it's anything different from the way the US does it at present? :)
How about privatising the police force? How different are they really from doctors and nurses in that they provide a service?
I know, what about privatising the fire-brigade? They would have lots of nice new equipment and they would only go out to those who paid their subscription. So is it socialist the fact that your fire-brigade isn't privatised?
What about NASA. Shouldn't that be privatised and made to fend for itself?
:)
Just because something is free, doesn't always make it better. Most people perform better when they have to work for something, (Paying for School etc.) then if it is given to them (i.e. welfare).
@ SurfDemon - Take a breath and relax. You are too tense this has definitely stuck very close to home with you.
Ah, we have the old chestnut. "If it wasn't for us you would be speaking German.". Really? Funny, but the when many countries stood up to be counted in 1939, the US was notable by it's absence. Is it likely you would have joined the war if you weren't attacked? Therefore I would say that no, your political system wasn't functioning very well then either. Or am I missing something?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Gambo
Strangely enough, most people in Britain, whilst greatful for the late US help, and recognising that it did certainly lop a few years off the war, attribute the fact that they still speak English to the British, Canadian, Russian, New Zealand, Australian and Refugee European troops...... but hey, I know you want to believe that Britain would have fallen without you :)
Sorry :) I don't mean to be tense. I'm, actually really enjoying this banter, because at the end of the day, it's really good fun to argue with people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Gambo
If I am a bit tense, then it's nothing to do with you guys... I've just found out that I've got to fly to Pakistan for a few weeks on Friday. I bloody hate going there as I stand out like a sore thumb, and I'll be honest, it scares the bejesus out of me :(
Oh and I should request that you never take anything I say personally. I do actually really really like almost every American I know personally, and I do think that the US has an awful lot to be proud about (Nasa, Technology etc.). However, your education system, health care system and political system don't really fall into that "things to be proud of" category...
That's right... who can RAISE the most money has the best shot, not who HAS the most money. We have (largely unconstitutional) campaign spending laws, too. If that wasn't the case Steve Forbes would have been president for the last 8 years and nobody would have ever heard of Dennis Kucinich (I can dream, can't I? ;) ).Quote:
Originally Posted by SurfDemon
Compared to us y'all are socialists... :bigyello: With the exception of maybe Australia.Quote:
Originally Posted by SurfDemon
Quote:
Originally Posted by SurfDemon
Lend Lease, it was in all of the papers.
Actually that is wrong. If I was working in the UK I would be taxed at 40% for what I was earning (this band starts at 34,600 pounds which is ~69,200 dollars). Also my capital gains would be taxed at 32.5%. It is 15% in the US. So in other words if I was working in the UK they would be taking twice as much money they are taking from me here in the US. To reiterate my point education is not “free”, healthcare is not “free”, it is all being paid for by the taxpayers.Quote:
Riiiiggghht. So a country with free eduction is a socialist country now is it? Funny definition, but there you go.... funny a quick glance at that socialist country of Britain shows that it's tax rate is 22% up to about $100,000. Which if I'm not mistaken is lower than the US tax rate for a comparable income.... strangely enough, it also has free medicine..... when will you stop harping on about that?
Countries are free to do things the way the want, I personally don’t care if people want their government to handle everything from cradle to grave or not, that is their choice. Here in the US I would fight anything along the lines of nationalized heath care or even nationalized higher education.Quote:
Oh hang, that's all very socialist isn't it? I get the impression that you think if anyone does anything different from the US, then it's "socialist". You see, it's very simple. Free higher education equals higher earning workers. Higher earning workers bring money into the country and pay a percentage of it in taxes. I have no doubt that the British government got the cost of my Computer degree back many times over in taxes... (at 22%), rather than if I had stuck to a lower paying job....
Again there are plenty of opportunities for people in the US who wish to get a higher education that are poor. There are plenty of scholarships, grants, and low interest loans that people can take advantage of.
Since I am not an elected official I don’t have any “policy” that I have stored in my file cabinet somewhere. Socialist governments are socialist governments, my suggestion would be to look up the word or read up on what socialism is. You seem upset that I am calling a spade a spade for some reason. I personally don’t care if other countries do things differently, that is for their own people to decide what they like. I have my own views as to how I think government should control our lives, that is the only thing I am trying to express.Quote:
I'm curious. What's your policy on privatising other aspects of public service? Or is it just "Socialist" when it's anything different from the way the US does it at present?
Of course there are basic government functions that have to be funded like building roads and protecting their citizens (that’s police and fire). The problem comes in when government try’s to take over every single aspect of our lives by providing all our needs from cradle to grave. I mean shouldn’t everyone have a house? Why doesn’t the government provide us all houses to live in? Don’t we have to eat? Shouldn’t government provide us food? Of course we need something to wear right to stay warm, shouldn’t the government provide us clothing? Heating Oil? Child Care?...etc. You can go on and on.Quote:
How about privatising the police force? How different are they really from doctors and nurses in that they provide a service?
I know, what about privatising the fire-brigade? They would have lots of nice new equipment and they would only go out to those who paid their subscription. So is it socialist the fact that your fire-brigade isn't privatised?
What about NASA. Shouldn't that be privatised and made to fend for itself?
You seem to be very angry at something, did the US somehow screw you out of something?
X
Er might I quote...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Gambo
So, like I said, in 1939, the US was noticable by it's absence..... :)Quote:
It began in March 1941, nine months before the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. It was abruptly stopped by the Americans immediately after V-J day.
Okay, I conceed, my exchange rate was completely wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xanith
However (you knew there was going to be a however didn't you :) ), let's look at the tax brackets. (I'm going for a single person here as it's easier to compare)
US
10% $0 - $8000
15% $8000 - $32,500
25% $32,500 - $78,850
28% $78,850 - $164,500
33% $164,500 - $357,700
in the UK (using the exchange rate of 2:1)
Taxable Allowance of $11,000 (so nothing under $11,000 is taxed)
10% $11,000 - $16,000
22% $16,000 - $81,000
40% Over $81,000
So say someone earning $100,000 in the US and Britain
The US person would pay $800 on the first 10%, $3,675 on the 15%, $11,587 on the 25% bracket and $5,922 on the last chunk. Making their Federal Tax bill $21,984. So, Basically 22%.
The UK Person would pay $500 at the 10% rate, $14,300 at the 22% rate and $7,600 for the last chunk. Making their bill $22,400. Or 22.5%
Now hang on, there is another kicker here. I believe that the individual states also tack on state income tax (the above is federal), which can be about another 10%...... there is no such thing in Britain.... so, your original point that Free Education and Health care countries have massively high tax rates would appear to be incorrect.
Just for a laugh (yes I am that sad), I did Canada's rate (also Free Health care). It works out at
$5,682 at 15%, $8,334 at the 22% rate and $6,300 at the 26% rate... which is $20,316 or a tax rate of 20% (for someone earning $100,000)..... which is a couple of points lower than the US tax rate... but hang on, don't us socialist countries have high tax rates....? :)
P.S. If you were paying twice as much when you were in the UK, then you should get a tax consultant, you should be able to get a chunk of it back.
As to your point of it not being "Free Healthcare" I totally agree. We use the term free in that the patient doesn't have to cough up any money. Of course the money has to come from somewhere, my point is/was that it isn't necessarily coupled to exhobarant tax rates. That seems to be a fallicy that gets banded around by those who are anti-health care for all.
What's the difference between a fireman adminsitering first aid to a fire victim, as a nurse administering first aid to a fire victim...? I'm failing to see the distinction between some things being okay to privatise and others not. Don't get me wrong, I actually agree that we shouldn't nanny people from cradle to grave, but that's not the point of free healthcare. This is about saving peoples lives so that they can go on to become useful members of society...Quote:
Of course there are basic government functions that have to be funded like building roads and protecting their citizens (that’s police and fire).
Not in the slightest, and I apologise if I am coming over that way. I am merely thoroughly enjoying a very good argument. If truth be told I'm not actually a 100% fan of free education, but I am posturing from that point to get the argument going.... personally I think the education should only be "free" if the government has a good chance in earning that money back in the future (through either the taxation of the high earning job or the boost to the economy that skilled workers bring).Quote:
You seem to be very angry at something, did the US somehow screw you out of something?
Personally I don't think they should be paying for students to study 5 years of the History of Art or French Poetry etc., unless there is either a need for that profession or a decent paying job at the end of it for most of the graduates..... ;)
SurfDemon,
Would you please stop cluttering up the debate with facts and well-reasoned logic backed up by hard data. Everyone knows that facts have a distinct liberal bias and can't be trusted.
Government run programs are evil and inefficient. Therefore any argument that says that they are not evil or more efficient than something in the private sector is, by definition, flawed and irrelevant. Please keep that in mind to stop further derailing of people's mindless rants against socialism.
:) Sorry, very inconsiderate of me.
Using one example hardly presents the entire picture. Looking at overall tax rates on individuals you will still find the more socialistic countries still have the highest tax rates because more money is needed to fund all of the government programs. Countries like Belgium, France, Germany.
Looking at tax revenues as a percentage of GDP and you will find:
1) Sweden 51.3%
2) Denmark 50.3%
3) Belgium 45.5%
4) Norway 44.3%
5) France 44.0%
15) UK 37%
24) Canada 33.5%
34) US 26.8%
Also looking at the mean income tax rates (which gives a better picture than just 1 example). You will still find that Canada and the UK still put a greater tax burden on their citizens, with the US being around 28% and Canada being around 32%, with the UK coming in around 34%.
But I was talking more about countries such as Belgium (mean taxation around 56%), Germany (52%), and Sweden (48%) who have far more extensive socialistic systems than either Canada or the UK.
But like I said people are free to choose the system they feel comfortable under, and if you want more government control over your life than by all means vote for it (if your free to vote in your country that is).
X
But, as SurfDemon mentioned above, that doesn't take tax brackets into account. For lower and middle class people, gross numbers are meaningless.
Also, you're comparing apples and oranges. I live in Canada now and health care expenses are included in my tax rate. I lived in the US a couple of years ago and while I had a lower tax rate, I had to shell out $200/month for health care for my family - and that's having a fulltime job with good benefits. You can't take that expense out and then say that you're getting better value because the rate is a few percentage points lower.
Yes gross numbers are meaningless if you are just talking about yourself :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer
But if you want to get the complete picture than you do have to look at them, sorry.
I know all about the Canadian Health care system (my wife is Canadian, and a nurse who worked in the Canadian system). Let me just give you a personal example of the Canadian system that just happened to my wife's Uncle:
He was having chest pains and went to go see the doctor in Canada. He wanted to know if he could have an angiogram or some other test to find out the problem. He was denied by the Canadian system, too costly. Well sure enough 1 month later he had a heart attack, fortunately he had it while shopping in Maine (US). He lived but needed a triple by-pass which was completed by US doctors.
Had the tests been performed in Canada he wouldn’t have had that heart attack. He could have possibly died needlessly.
How does that old saying go? You get what you pay for.
X
Obviously not good enough... I have NEVER had to pay for my own health insurance, and the only person I know who does (who's not working for peanuts) owns his own business.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer
Try this: Drop by any heath clinic in Buffalo or Detroit and ask what percentage of their patients are Canadian. If Canada's socialist system was so great the number should be close to zero, right? :D
You should not apologize for coming over that way. You should apologize because you have no Idea in hell what you are talking about. Your calculations regarding the US tax system are off base. First off. If you make $0 - $5,000 a year you are paying 0% income taxes. if you are a full time student at any level you are paying 0% taxes unless you are written off under your parent's account then they pay 0% tax for your income and are refunded a portion of your tuition. Meaning, if you get into college you are not being taxed. Also, I'll use myself as an example. I fall under the 33% category but do not pay 33% of my income to the IRS every year. I have employer provided private health insurance but my dependants do not. I am however given a tax break for having dependants which more than covers that expense. There are also other writeoffs, like charities business expenses ect... If some one in the US does not have health insurance it is because they are f-ing retarded or have parents who are f-ing retarded. I guess that comes back full circle to education. Americans are educated on the public dollar for 12 years. Those who perform the best are generally offered scolarships, Those who don't can go to community or state colleges for free using grants if they are poor or interest/tax free using student loans if they have money and are below to average students. Those who choose to not take advantage of these available options end up shoveling krap the rest of their lives... and that is where they belong. The best of the best are generally given the best education which is why the united stated has managed to improve it's self at such a rapid pace.Quote:
Originally Posted by SurfDemon
X. I can post a converse example. My dad had chest pains and dizzyness. He was in hospital in a "heartbeat", had an angiogram promptly and a cat scan within a matter of days...... I guess it just depends on which hospital you go to.... With any system you can pull up examples of people who get good service and people who get poor service.
Homerj. What are the figures, you don't give us any answers? If there are a lot, how many are people travelling from Canada, and how many are Canadians who live in Detroit etc.? The reason I ask is that I imagine 10% of the people who turn up in Calgary's hospitals are Americans? That might sound shocking until you realise that 10% of the population of Calgary are American.....
Okay, I'll conceed that US tax law is not my specialist subject, so what would an average single guy earning $100,000 a year pay in taxes? I am genuinley curious. Thanks in advance.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterBlaster
Or poor?Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterBlaster
It varies greatly depending on the individual. Questions I would have are, Is he a property owner? Any children? Self employed? Contributes to charity? Employed by non-profit? Yearly work business related expenses? Educational status? Race? Yearly Tax Deferred investments AKA retirement Plans? These are just a few questions. The US tax system is extremly complicated. Average would be between 20% - 28%.
Actually the poor are not the people having problems with lack of health insurance. State Welfare coveres basic care for the poor. It is the lower middle class that is having problems and it is specifically lower middle class people living beyond their means and or not taking advantage of the current system that have this issue. The issue is "Federal" level healthcare. It is not necessary, the states provide for the people who can not afford it already. Lower middle class families making 30 -40K a year need to realize that living in a 200K trach mansion house carrying 30% - 50% of their gross income in unsecured debt and driving thier uninsured kids to soccer practice in a brand new minivan is not an acceptable way to conduct ones personal finances. They also need to realize that their teachers were correct when they said "If you study hard and pay attention in school you will be successfull" repeatedly for 12 years.
Good point. I was unaware that it was the lower-middle class making up the bulk of the uninsured. I just assumed it was the poorest. Thanks for clarifying that. :) It is unfortunate that there seems to be segment of all societies (regardless of which country you are in) that need to keep spending money on tangible assets (keeping up with the Jones) rather than intangibles (insurance etc.)
This tax debate started silly and got worse. Nobody has come even close to comparing apples to apples, as far as I can see (and MB appears to be off on his own tangent).
There are two main points that nobody made (though MB came VERY close to explicitly stating one of them):
1) Few Americans pay just income tax, and I have no idea to what extent this is true for any other country. To compare income tax and capital gains rates between countries is absurd. A fair comparison is what percent of your gross income goes to taxes, but it would take a bloody accountant to figure that out, even for a person with simple taxes like mine. Everything is taxed, and taxed at a different rate in ways visible and transparent. Good luck trying to figure out how much you have paid in taxes in a year.
2) Even if you look at income tax alone, SD and MB appear to be differing on whether you look at income or taxable income. Since taxable income is dependent on the whole myriad of exemptions, deductions, and stuff like that, figuring your tax rate as a percent of gross earnings is simply wrong. Figuring it out based on taxable income is possible, but since taxable income is unrelated to gross earnings, the comparison is meaningless.
As for our electoral system, somebody cynically mentioned that it was designed to retain power. At the very least, we are well aware that it is a terrible system to represent the will of the people, and we have discussed in this forum at least two systems that are both superior, and well within our grasp. Since there has been plenty of study of the issue, the results are known and demonstrable, and yet there is no real noise about fixing a broken system, I side with the cynic.
Under one of the superior voting systems, there might be a Hillary, there might be a Rudy, and there might be a Ron Paul, but they wouldn't look like they do now, because they would have to run on different issues.
The poor take it in the shorts when it comes to health care. The really troubling aspect is that studies show that your socio-economic status growing up is an excellent predictor of how many health issues you will have during your life. Even if you become rich later in life you are at greater risk for pretty much everything based on how you grew up. I have never seen an explanation for this, though I have seen a few attempts to study why it happens.
Basic care is provided by all states if you can't afford it. On the other hand, they are free to make sure that you can't afford it before they provide it, which is an unfortunate fact that the elderly get to face. I have two grandparents who had all their savings sucked away before they got any health care. At that point, what is left for them? The answer is state covered senior facilities or family members. The former option is inferior in many states (maybe all of them, I don't know), and the latter is untenable for somebody who needs round-the-clock care. For both of my grand parents, they went from meager to very meager once they went from savings to no savings. Since private insurance is not so thrilled about insuring the elderly, another group that gets left behind are those who didn't plan well during peak earning years.
Other than that, the people I know who had to make health care trade-offs were not the poor, they were the lower middle-class that MB mentioned. People without employer provided health care, and not enough money to buy private insurance. It's not a small category.
I don't know the exact figures, that's why I said you should ask. I do have a friend who works as a receptionist in a clinic in suburban Buffalo and she claims more than half their patients are Canadian. Let's say she's exaggerating a bit and it's "only" 25%. That's still a pretty frightening figure if that many people are willing to drive literally hours, cross an international border and pay cash for services they could stay home and get for "free." And we're certainly not talking about Canadian citizens living in Buffalo... :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by SurfDemon
Have you ever heard of an American (or any other nationality for that matter) traveling to Canada (or Britain, France, Germany, etc.) for health care? The Cleveland Clinic gets all kinds of foreigners traveling here to use our supposedly inferior system because they know they will get the best treatment in the world. And it's not only good for the richest of the world's rich, but that same clinic treats our city's poor as well - often at a loss.
That's why I get so pissed when I hear some ignorant fool claim America's health care system sucks. Yeah, it's expensive - mostly because of government interference in the free market. But if it was really so crappy Americans would travel abroad for health care, not the other way around.
Quote:
Originally Posted by homer13j
Ummm...yeah, all the time. Mexico, too. Mostly it's for meds, but not entirely. Now that I think about it, I have only heard of people traveling to Mexico for health care, and both places for meds. I have some sources I could check, though, if you really care.
Sounds like to me that your dad was brought to the hospital for emergency care. It is true if it is an emergency Canada will provide the necessary care. My wife's uncle had a routine visit to the doctor and wasn’t any emergency, in the US he would have been promptly given tests to determine the problem, in Canada oftentimes such care is not seen as affordable under the Canadian system unfortunately.Quote:
Originally Posted by SurfDemon
I could give another example from my wife’s family. One of her relatives was having gall bladder problems. Since it was not deemed an emergency she had to wait to have it removed. Well a year passed of her in pain every day until finally she had to be rushed to the hospital because her gall bladder had become infected and had burst. She lived but could have died.
These are just 2 examples from my wife’s family. I have read of many others. The Canadian "free" health care system is widely under funded and inadequate. My wife’s parents have purchased supplemental insurance (along with a lot of other Canadians) to help offset the shortcomings in the Canadian system.
A lot of the best doctors and nurses from Canada come to work in the US. There is a great shortage of both in Canada, especially specialists. Which makes wait times for anything a lot longer.
X
Er, as has already been mentioned by SH, yes, lots of times. Maybe you just don't hear about them. In actualy fact one of my ex-workmates is American. They are here because his wife has cancer and the treatment was too expensive in the US.Quote:
Originally Posted by homer13j
Out of interest, which province was this in. It is true that the "richer" provinces do have much better medical facilities than the "poorer" ones. (Alberta luckily enough for us, being stinking rich - BTW, thanks for buying all our oil :thumb: )Quote:
Originally Posted by Xanith
Er, ***???? Where did you get this fact from? You seem to assume that the only thing doctors work for is higher wages. The average wage of a doctor here is (apparently) $230,000 a year. More than enough to live comfortably. Coupled with the higher quality of life up here, I find your "fact" that a lot of the best doctors leave, questionable. I have no doubt that there is a brain drain from Canada into the US, that is inevitable when you have ten times the population, and often high paying jobs, but as often as not it'll be your average Joe "hacksaw" Henderson, (specialises in pouring cheap whisky over the limb before hacking it off) from Newfounbdland who's looking to make big bucks who makes the move.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xanith
hang on, let's get some facts...
So, yes, the brain drain is happening, are they necessarily the "best", .... who knows? If I was offered quadruple my salary to move to the states, I doubt if I would, my kids are settled in School here, a lot of my family are here, I can afford a very comfortable life, there's more to life than just money, and I think most people see it that way. You might just find that you are getting the money-grabbing doctors :)Quote:
According to a 2007 article, the Canadian medical profession is suffering from a brain drain. The article states, "One in nine trained-in-Canada doctors is practising medicine in the United States... If Canadian-educated doctors who were born in the U.S. are excluded, the number is one in 12."
Well, it's not like we have huge surplus medical staffs down here, either. The reason they can make so much in the US is that US staffing is pretty poor in number. Any medical professional seems able to get a great job anywhere they want to in this country. With a demand as high as that, we should be sucking in workers from everywhere just based on supply and demand.
The reason those folks leave Canada is not because there is a great shortage up there, but because there is a greater shortage down here.
Of course I am.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
If you don't know what % of your gross income has gone to taxes every year, you need to fire your accountant. Typically to be efficent you should Owe the IRS $0 at the end of the year and the IRS should owe you $0 at the end of the year. If you are getting a refund at the end of the year, the government has just collected 1 years worth of interest on your money instead of you. You need to work with your accountant to get that figured out man.Quote:
There are two main points that nobody made (though MB came VERY close to explicitly stating one of them):
1) Few Americans pay just income tax, and I have no idea to what extent this is true for any other country. To compare income tax and capital gains rates between countries is absurd. A fair comparison is what percent of your gross income goes to taxes, but it would take a bloody accountant to figure that out, even for a person with simple taxes like mine. Everything is taxed, and taxed at a different rate in ways visible and transparent. Good luck trying to figure out how much you have paid in taxes in a year.
Your taxable income is directly related to your gross income. You can not make any stratigical investment decisions based on just one or the other.Quote:
2) Even if you look at income tax alone, SD and MB appear to be differing on whether you look at income or taxable income. Since taxable income is dependent on the whole myriad of exemptions, deductions, and stuff like that, figuring your tax rate as a percent of gross earnings is simply wrong. Figuring it out based on taxable income is possible, but since taxable income is unrelated to gross earnings, the comparison is meaningless.
Agreed.Quote:
As for our electoral system, somebody cynically mentioned that it was designed to retain power. At the very least, we are well aware that it is a terrible system to represent the will of the people, and we have discussed in this forum at least two systems that are both superior, and well within our grasp. Since there has been plenty of study of the issue, the results are known and demonstrable, and yet there is no real noise about fixing a broken system, I side with the cynic.
Under one of the superior voting systems, there might be a Hillary, there might be a Rudy, and there might be a Ron Paul, but they wouldn't look like they do now, because they would have to run on different issues.
The government plan and what it pays for shouldn’t be different by province. I am not talking about level of care I am talking about what gets paid for under the Canadian system or not. It doesn’t matter where you go to the doctor, what the government pays for will be the same everywhere.Quote:
Out of interest, which province was this in. It is true that the "richer" provinces do have much better medical facilities than the "poorer" ones. (Alberta luckily enough for us, being stinking rich - BTW, thanks for buying all our oil)
As far as wait times some of the more populated parts of Canada will have less of a wait for some procedures, but that is simply because there are more doctors available to see patients.
Well the hospital that my wife works as now there are quite a few Canadian doctors and nurses working with her. Also a lot of her friends that she went to school with are working in the US. I get the fact first hand from my wife and from what I have read.Quote:
Er, ***???? Where did you get this fact from? You seem to assume that the only thing doctors work for is higher wages. The average wage of a doctor here is (apparently) $230,000 a year. More than enough to live comfortably. Coupled with the higher quality of life up here, I find your "fact" that a lot of the best doctors leave, questionable. I have no doubt that there is a brain drain from Canada into the US, that is inevitable when you have ten times the population, and often high paying jobs, but as often as not it'll be your average Joe "hacksaw" Henderson, (specialises in pouring cheap whisky over the limb before hacking it off) from Newfounbdland who's looking to make big bucks who makes the move.
hang on, let's get some facts...
So, yes, the brain drain is happening, are they necessarily the "best", .... who knows? If I was offered quadruple my salary to move to the states, I doubt if I would, my kids are settled in School here, a lot of my family are here, I can afford a very comfortable life, there's more to life than just money, and I think most people see it that way. You might just find that you are getting the money-grabbing doctors
You are right there is no way to tell the expertise of the doctors and nurses that are coming to the US. Some might be as you say just looking for more money; others might want the chance to work in a top hospital, some maybe a little of both. The US has some very prestigious hospitals that draw doctors and nurses from all over the world. My wife worked at the Mayo Clinic which is one of the top hospitals in the world, not only did doctors and nurses come from all over the world to work there, a great number of patients came from all over the world to get care there as well.
If you know anything about doctors or nurses (which to me sounds as if you don’t if you think most are just looking for more money) most of them care about working in top hospitals and getting the best work experience they can for their career. The US is tops in research and teaching in the medical field which is why a lot in the medical field come here to learn and work. So it wouldn’t surprise me a lot of the top doctors from all countries would want to come to the US to work, not just for money, but the chance to work at some of the best hospitals in the world.
X
You always are. It's one thing I have most appreciated about you.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterBlaster
You misunderstood what I was getting at here. I pay federal income tax, state income tax, gas taxes (federal everywhere, state in some places, municipal also in other places), sales tax (different rates on different purchases), room and meals tax, property tax, DJ taxes (you never see them, do you even know what they are?), maybe PR taxes (I don't know what these are myself), etc. and etc. Of the total gross income I take in, how much is going to tax in one form or another? I haven't a clue, and doubt anybody else knows for certain. However, it is relevant to this discussion since people were talking about their tax burden, especially the US tax burden. At the very least, the income tax you pay is dependent on which state you live in, since some states tax income, while others don't. Apparently, some municipalities do, as well, since I have a tab on my W-2 for them, though I have never used it.Quote:
If you don't know what % of your gross income has gone to taxes every year, you need to fire your accountant. Typically to be efficent you should Owe the IRS $0 at the end of the year and the IRS should owe you $0 at the end of the year. If you are getting a refund at the end of the year, the government has just collected 1 years worth of interest on your money instead of you. You need to work with your accountant to get that figured out man.
As for the concept that you should owe nothing to the IRS and the IRS should owe nothing to you, I totally agree. In most economic situations, I think that owing somewhat each year would be better than breaking even. However, my accountant is worth every penny I pay him. I pay him nothing, and get the full value that amount buys (yes, it's me). Frankly, I have been getting a refund for the last few years, and am not going to change it because I haven't faced the same tax situation in the last few years as our legislature keeps tinkering with property taxes just enough that I never know whether I will be paying more or less. The bank can't figure it out, either, which is entertaining. They've had to give me fat checks because they overcharged for escrow. Now I think they are undercharging me because the taxes changed again. If they can't figure out how much I am paying in property taxes, how much easier would it be for me? I wait for the bill to see what each new move will be. Last year I paid half the property taxes that I did four years ago. Now I appear to be back to 80% of what I paid the first year in this house. It's a joy.
Yes I misunderstood. I was speaking of federal taxes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
I believe my point was that most good nurses and doctores aren't interested in more money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xanith
As for your wife working in the Mayo clinic, that is very cool, as it does have a rightly deserved excellent world reputation. And I fully understand that Canadians (and other nationalities) would travel from all over to come work at such a place. However, that is not representative of you average city general hospital......
Anyway, gotta dash. It's 5.30am (jet-lag!) and I'm in a hotel in Karachi where the "high-speed" is more like dial-up - probably due to the cable damage. So have fun folks. I'll tune in again soon. :thumb:
So when does the world do their yearly taxes?
I believe the US's TaxDay is April 15th or so.