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It looks as if the people of France have come to their senses and elected a sensible man as president
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/eu...ion/index.html
The liberal opposition, in true form, rioted when they didn't get their way.
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/eu...eut/index.html
This is something that I have begun to associate with liberals. When they can't get their way in fair Democratic elections they try to take it by other means.
Welcome back to sanity France!
Typical of French liberals especially. If they don't get their way they attack the police. It's hardly their fault!
I for one am happy he's in power because France will continue to shrink in importance on the world stage. I mean seriously, considering they consider the UK inferior to them, how is it that thousands of professional French workers are emigrating here leaving France with an untrained workforce, unattractive to big investors in business
Apparently though the French military has the quickest response time in history, and the training is also the most specific and quickest in the world. Quite impressive!
Of course all they do is surrender at the first sign of trouble :D
I never disliked France.
Now we just need to hope he can reverse the French slide to socialism.Quote:
Originally Posted by moeur
Americans secretly like the French people. We like to listen to their accents.
They've been the butt of jokes since at least the 1940's.
By the way, I'm reading about the Terror at the moment. I don't think France ever really recovered. This guy just won because of basic xenophobia. Without that push, he wouldn't have made it. That's ok, unless it begins to rule his government.
Hurr Hurr, you said Butt.Quote:
They've been the butt of jokes
I don't understand why anyone would think that someone cannot be their freind unless they share the same politics.
Friends help each other.
France isn't going to help us, they just won't be quite as vocal in opposition.
A friend is someone who will help you move. A good friend is someone who will help you move a body.
France is not a good friend, and we only really need good friends now.
...with ...Wars of Independence, for example.Quote:
Friends help each other.
...thanks for helping both us and France in the Suez crisis by the way. Oh wait, you didn't.
At the time of the Suez Crisis the Soviets were ruthlessly putting down an anti-Communist uprising in Hungary which was more of a concern. Both Britain and France had the help of the Israeli’s in an attempt to hold together their crumbing empires. The US did help broker a cease-fire and a peace before a wider conflict happened. The conflict only lasted a week and all troops were gone from the area within a month. So you are incorrect in your assessment of the Suez Crisis in stating that the US didn’t help, it did, just no military help because it wasn’t necessary as the Soviets didn’t carry through on their threat to intervene on behalf of the Egyptians.Quote:
Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
Had the Soviets actually carried through on their threat I am pretty positive the US would have supported both Britain and France, after all the US spent the entirety of the Cold War shielding Europe from the Soviets.
As for the War of Independence, yes France helped us gain our independence from the Brits and spared us from having the Queen on our money and having a boring sport like Cricket as our national game. Thanks France!
X
WWI, WWII and Vietnam don't count as helping out? :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
What about turning a flakey piece of tasteless pastry into the hevanly gift known as the "crosandwich"? That is the true dfinition of friendship.
I didn't say that and certainly didn't mean to imply it.:)Quote:
WWI, WWII and Vietnam don't count as helping out?
The US actively opposed British and French intervention in Suez, seeking and ultimately achieveing UN resolutions to force a ceasefire that France and Britain didn't want. I deliberately used Suez as an example because the American position then was almost exactly the same as the French positon prior to Iraq, the only substantial difference being that the US succeeded where France failed. And yet Brtitain and France continued to view the US as their freinds - just freinds that were disagreeing with them on the current issue.Quote:
So you are incorrect in your assessment of the Suez Crisis in stating that the US didn’t help, it did, just no military help because it wasn’t necessary as the Soviets didn’t carry through on their threat to intervene on behalf of the Egyptians.
In contrast, when France opposed the US on Iraq, you guys started boycotting Frech stores and renaming French Fries (which are correctly referred to as "Chips", by the way:p ) "Freedom Fries". All of which made you look a bit silly, frankly.
We have a proud history of strong reactions (from Wikipedia):Quote:
Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
'Politically-motivated euphemism[s] like this is reminiscent of anti-German sentiment during the First World War, when sauerkraut was renamed as liberty cabbage, dachshunds (wiener dogs) as liberty pups, frankfurters as hot dogs, and hamburgers as liberty steaks or Salisbury steaks. Even the German measles were instead called liberty measles. [9] This similarity is intentional: Rowland described a conversation about these renamed foods during World War I as the inspiration for "freedom fries". [10]'
But, we most likely inherited that funniness from guess who? That's right...
'United Kingdom: During World War I, the German Shepherd was renamed the Alsatian and German biscuits were renamed Empire biscuits due to strong anti-German sentiment.'
See, we still have a strong British influence in our country :)
(Of course, no one calls fried potato sticks 'Freedom Fries', since only Congressional legislators labeled them as such - and it never stuck.)
:lol: I'd never heard those before. Do you reckon Liberty pup wears tight spandex shorts and a cape?Quote:
sauerkraut was renamed as liberty cabbage, dachshunds (wiener dogs) as liberty pups, frankfurters as hot dogs, and hamburgers as liberty steaks or Salisbury steaks. Even the German measles were instead called liberty measles.
Guilty as charged :blush: but the difference is that we (and you) were fighting against the Germans in WWI - that's a fairly good reason for declaring someone isn't your freind (it pretty much goes without saying in fact). The French weren't fighting against you in Iraq, they just weren't fighting with you.Quote:
from guess who? That's right...
You mean it was an "official" thing:eek: I just thought it was some crackpot burger bar owners. Just goes to show what I've always believe:, your people are posessed of alot more sanity than your politicians.Quote:
only Congressional legislators labeled them as such
edit> By the end of this thread I may just remember that freind is spelt friend.:blush:
I've only heard the words Freedom Fries used in jest to mock the stupidity of the jackarse who thought of it. Chips are different than french fries. In the US, chips are called jo jo's if seasoned cajun style or potato wedges. Chips are larger than french fries with a deliciously fried crisp golden outside and a wonderfully soft potato inside. French fries are thin strips of potato that are chemically transformed from potato to burnt lard held together by the remnants of the starch from the spud.Quote:
Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
WTH is a German biscuit?
No. The US considered WWII a "European Conflict" until Japan bloodied its nose a bit in Pearl Harbour. The US would have been happy to see the UK, and the rest of Europe with it, be conquered by Nazi Germany. Some friends.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterBlaster
Tell that to three of my Grandmothers brothers. Wait, you cant. Two are under six feet of dirt and a white cross in France and the other went down over Germany and was never found. If we hadn't been supplying your troops before we actually got our troops involved, there would have been no reason for Japan to attack the US. BTW I'll be sure to tell my nan that her brothers weren't good friends of england or france. I'm sure that will make her day knowing that it was only a european war. :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by Valleysboy1978
Honestly, in hindsite, it may not have been a bad Idea to let germany take over europe. At least your dental program would be better.
There is no evidence what so ever that this statement is true. I guess it could even be called a lie; or maybe just propaganda. Valleysboy, why do you spread such vicious propaganda?Quote:
The US would have been happy to see the UK, and the rest of Europe with it, be conquered by Nazi Germany.
Then as now there were anti-war activists, but the President saw the good that he could do by taking the country to war so he did.
I believe the term you're looking for is Bullsheit, Of course I may offend someone by saying that so I will translate it to the english version "MadCowsheit".
Actually, both positions are right (as usually happens in this country, since political division is nothing new). There were VERY strong pro-German sentiments in the US, including the anti-semitism which was strong in the US, too. One notable American hero was a strong Nazi supporter prior to the war (lindberg), and toured Germany. There was also a large contingent that was completely isolationist without regard to any other issues: They just wanted to stay home and not deal with anybody else's issues.
On the other hand, there was a strong pro-British contingent, and Roosevelt felt quite strongly that we should be fighting the Germans. He could easily have lost this argument had the Germans not put their foot in it to some extent, but he was also actively helping the Brits, even without war being declared.
As for Japan, I don't think the war with Germany really caused that. I think it was primarily a Japanese perception that the US was going to keep expanding its influence to the extent that a small island nation like Japan would ultimately and deliberately, be smothered. They attacked out of a feeling of economic desperation, which was possibly correct, or possibly mistaken.
Japans excuse for destroying the US pacific fleet was: Since the US felt the need to use it's atlantic fleet to support a war against a nation expanding it's borders, It would do the same with its pacific fleet to stop Japan from taking over the pacific Islands. Japan was overcrowded and lacked the resources to sustain it's self, so they decided to invade their neighbors.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
It was a preemptive strike based on our past behaviour of supporting England and France.
What I don't understand with all of this is that the US keeps fighting somebody elses war.
I can't say I'm not grateful for the help they gave Europe during both the first and the second world war, and after that the cold war - and believe me, many europeans feel this way.
What confuses me though is that, it seems the like the US is a pretty messed up country the way it is right now, there's a huge gap between rich and poor, and it seems like emergency infrastructure doesn't even function as it's supposed to(Like with the hurricane in New Orleans).
The US army spends such a vast amount of money fighting wars abroad, whilst it seems like there's one to be fought at home. That's just the view of an outsider though, I don't know how you Americans look at this?
(I appologize for the sudden topic switch BTW, just got me thinking when reading the pro/cons of a US/French alliance ;))
I don't understand it either. I definatly don't agree with it. For some reason the rest of the world thinks the US owes them something and the US government feels the need to honor that..Quote:
Originally Posted by vbNeo
There is a gap because ther are a bunch of lazy basterds in the US. Any one can get rich in this country, but it requires work. They didn't call New Orleans the "Big Easy" for nothing. They had years notice and were given the funds to fix the levy. Guess what, a bunch of lazy basterds elected a bunch of lazy basterds and it never got built.Quote:
What confuses me though is that, it seems the like the US is a pretty messed up country the way it is right now, there's a huge gap between rich and poor, and it seems like emergency infrastructure doesn't even function as it's supposed to(Like with the hurricane in New Orleans).
It's a view of a lot of insiders as well.Quote:
The US army spends such a vast amount of money fighting wars abroad, whilst it seems like there's one to be fought at home. That's just the view of an outsider though, I don't know how you Americans look at this?
(I appologize for the sudden topic switch BTW, just got me thinking when reading the pro/cons of a US/French alliance ;))
Do you really think that we, with our internationally dependent economy, would stay out of other peoples business? This country isn't self sustaining, and is pushing hard to become less so. When much food comes from oversea, most of our energy resources come from oversea, much of our wealth comes from oversea industry, etc., then the policy of the government will be interventionist. Prior to WWII, this was explicitly so, with wars and influence being overtly directed towards proping up the economic interests of those who greased the wheels of government. It was the accepted role of a government to support the economy, which meant the support of those groups seen as being crucial pieces of the economy. Since those groups were largely self-identified, they called the tune.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterBlaster
That's mostly a myth. You need MUCH more than just hard work, few people without a college degree end up wealthy, but those that do are held up as examples to support a myth that was never true. I had crews of hard working people. Not a one of them was wealthy, nor would they ever be, no matter how hard they worked. They lacked the skills necessary to get good paying jobs, but worse, they lacked the skills necessary to acquire the skills necessary to get better jobs.Quote:
There is a gap because ther are a bunch of lazy basterds in the US. Any one can get rich in this country, but it requires work.
They were never actually given the money to do the job. They usually didn't even get promises, then what was built was built wrong. The ACE has acknowledged that it built the levies wrong, and that the whole Katrina thing was a man-made disaster resulting from incompetence and bad design. Of course, this was mostly known before the storm hit, but it was, and will always be, easier for an elected politician to hope that the bill doesn't come due on their watch.Quote:
They didn't call New Orleans the "Big Easy" for nothing. They had years notice and were given the funds to fix the levy.
And look, it hasn't!! Who has paid the price for the mistakes that were made? NOBODY! One FEMA director was fired, then hired back as a contractor, and he certainly had nothing to do with the poor design. How about the politicians? Well, they got re-elected, except for Bush, who can't run again. NOBODY paid, so good lesson will be learned. It wasn't a question of laziness, it was simple economics.
This happened after hurricane Andrew, as well. The simple truth is that plenty of people are smart enough to realize that they can cut costs, and never pay for it. It happened before Katrina, it happened during Katrina, and if you have been following the reconstruction efforts, you know that it is happening again. The lessons were learned: You won't pay any price for cutting corners.
I never said it wasn't true and completly understand why it happened. That doesn't mean I have to agree with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
I've heard that goddamn sob story my entire life. If they were working hard they would be making enough to at least afford to go to school part time. And even if they can't afford it, anyone can go to a community college basically free on loans and grants, or join the military and get their tuition paid. There are always ways. People are to damn lazy to look for them. You mean to tell me that the people on your crews can't read? Last I heard the public library was still free and is full of books on how to make an arseload of money in a capitalist society. I seem to remember learning the dewey decimal system in the "second fooking grade" I had $0 at the age of 17 and am almost ready to retire at the age of 33. They don't lack skills, they lack the motivation and initative to take personal responsability for their financial future. The sad part Is, my taxes are paying for these dirtbags when they retire.Quote:
That's mostly a myth. You need MUCH more than just hard work, few people without a college degree end up wealthy, but those that do are held up as examples to support a myth that was never true. I had crews of hard working people. Not a one of them was wealthy, nor would they ever be, no matter how hard they worked. They lacked the skills necessary to get good paying jobs, but worse, they lacked the skills necessary to acquire the skills necessary to get better jobs.
You are quite mistaken. They were given the money to start the construction by the federal government in 1999 or 2000. The govenor decided to use the money to invest in tourism infrastructure instead.Quote:
They were never actually given the money to do the job. They usually didn't even get promises, then what was built was built wrong. The ACE has acknowledged that it built the levies wrong, and that the whole Katrina thing was a man-made disaster resulting from incompetence and bad design. Of course, this was mostly known before the storm hit, but it was, and will always be, easier for an elected politician to hope that the bill doesn't come due on their watch.
The people who were responsible for electing idiots have paid the price for the mistakes THEY made.Quote:
And look, it hasn't!! Who has paid the price for the mistakes that were made? NOBODY! One FEMA director was fired, then hired back as a contractor, and he certainly had nothing to do with the poor design. How about the politicians? Well, they got re-elected, except for Bush, who can't run again. NOBODY paid, so good lesson will be learned. It wasn't a question of laziness, it was simple economics.
What about those who voted for the other guy? ;).Quote:
The people who were responsible for electing idiots have paid the price for the mistakes THEY made.
It's an interesting discussion however. In Denmark we have a bit more of a socialist approach to liberalism than you guys have in the US. We see it in somewhat high taxes(50% of our salary isn't abnormal), however, this just means the government has that much more money to play around with - which in our case paid off.
Anyone here has exactly the same freedom as you have in the states, and if anything, we get money if we want to start our own business etc.
We have a working health care system, where treatment doesn't cost a dime, education is free as well and by the end of the day there's still enough money for seniors and people on disability.
On top of all this we have a very(and I mean veery) large middle class, which means the gap between rich and poor isn't that big.
I'm not saying Denmark is a paradise, but it's getting there, and of course it took a lot of hard work, but I suppose social liberalism as we have it here is somewhat hindered by the US constitution, or maybe not?
Anyways, I use Denmark as an example because I live here of course, but also because I haven't see anything work better anywhere else. It may be that it's just because we're a smaller country, and as such we're easier to govern, but wouldn't a larger country just mean more natural ressourcers and work power?
Any thoughts on this from you guys?
Yes, If the government wanted 50% of my hard earned money, they would have to take it out of my cold dead hands. I'm already miffed about the 30% they already take and waste. Lucilly we can write a chunk of that off by investing in things the government approves of and donating it to charities that we believe in. Infact some of the environmental groups I donated to actually scored a nice win last week in puget sound! It's absolutly awesome to know that if people believe in something and take action instead of complaining things can get done.Quote:
Originally Posted by vbNeo
Socialism breeds lazyness. People become too dependant on the governement and loose the ability to provide for themselvs. Once they loose that ability they loose their own humanity. I don't know about you but there are only a handfull of people I would unquestionably trust with my life and there definatly ain't a single politician on that list. Is there one on yours?
Socialism breeds lazyness? Seems like a rather onesided view of things.
I'm not lazy, in fact I just busted my ass off this week getting an 80 pages report done, and so did 20 of my class mates. From what I've heard around the world, people are generally fond of Danes because we're not afraid to lend a hand when one is needed, we're good at taking initiative and action when needed.
I didn't say we were socialists, I said we were social liberalists. In my opinion we've found the golden middle road. I happily pay my taxes because I know it pays for my education, and I'll keep paying them happily because if I one day end up getting sick, or one of my loved ones do, I KNOW society will kick in and help out.
I'm pretty much with shaggy on this one. Forging your own luck is all good in theory and all, but practically I really don't find it that good; by helping each other, we can help society become stronger than if it was every man for himself.
Yeah, it sucks. Take off the rose colored lenses.Quote:
Any thoughts on this from you guys?
I think we've had this discussion before. I didn't include the rest of your post, because something was going really wrong with the quoting, and I had no idea what would actually show up.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterBlaster
With these people, it was very much a lack of something, and it was neither effort nor money. It was a lack on dreams. They never considered the possibility that there could be more to life that the narrow path they were told about. We all do that to some extent. I never considered any options other than college. It wasn't that there was any pressure to go to college, it was just such a "given" that I never considered that college was optional until long after I was out. Grad school was optional, and I took the option, but college was not. For those workers, they never recognized that they had other options until, generally, it was too late.
The longer I live, the more I think that it is the real exceptional individual who breaks beyond the bounds that are set for them by the society (at a family or friend level, not general community level) they grow up in.
If you can retire in your early thirties, well, what of it? I chose a career that was unlikely to make me wealthy. Most people (except city folks) are a bit jealous of my day to day activities, but on the other hand, I'll never be rich, either. Maybe this was also a result of growing up so comfortably: My objectives were not material wealth (I could always assume sufficiency, though not wealth), but other goals. Those gals (the crew I refer to was almost exclusively female) were raised to a different goal (need I say what it was?), and achieved it. It wasn't a matter of lazy for them, they were successful by the measure they were raised to value, so was I. They will never be rich, and I probably won't either, but it isn't out of laziness, just different values.
Care to add a citation for that? It is not consistent with what I heard.Quote:
You are quite mistaken. They were given the money to start the construction by the federal government in 1999 or 2000. The govenor decided to use the money to invest in tourism infrastructure instead.
Oh, now we elect the ACE? And are you suggesting that the idiots you elect are better? Blaming people for their own misfortune is a wonderful way of absolving yourself of any responsibility. You are effectively saying that they suffer because they deserve it. That's absurd in this case. The people didn't vote in an engineering failure.Quote:
The people who were responsible for electing idiots have paid the price for the mistakes THEY made.
I'm glad you're proud of your own accomplishments, but you gain no respect from me by casually classifying whole categories of people as lazy and stupid because they have not your glorious radiance. You yourself, despite all your accomplishments, are no more than the roll of the dice away from the gutter.
Hey, it's your country :P putting words in your mouth would just give me an offensive reaction.Quote:
Originally Posted by System_Error
I was speaking of the 50% tax and shared trust idea:D The world will only become a better place when I take it over:thumb:Quote:
Originally Posted by vbNeo
It's not an idea, it's how it works here... But yea, I guess you taking over the world would make it a better place anyway, so who cares? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by System_Error
(Can I have Florida?)
How a country is run is really out of the small peoples control, so it's something I don't give a crap about (but I love to complain and criticize). But who cares, just like you said.Quote:
Originally Posted by vbNeo
I hope you like water:DQuote:
(Can I have Florida?)
From where I sit (Britain) the Sandinavian countries seem to have it just about right. They consistently score amongst the highest countries in the world for healthcare and eduction and amongst the lowest for crime and poverty. They have an exellent public transport system and chuck out some pretty good furniture too (though frankly the things you guys'll do to a pilchard just don't bear thinking about).
You can argue that social liberalism makes for laziness but the Sandinavian countries would seem to provide an example that proves you wrong, I just did a quick calculation based on the GDP and population figures on Wikkipoedia and US gave a GDP/head of 0.043. Sweden gave 0.042 and Denmark gave (drumroll) 0.05 (pat yourself on the back, VBNeo). I don't know how acurate those figures are and in particular the GDP list has a caveat that the figures need updating but I think they provide an indication that the Scandinavians are, at the very least, as industrious as the US and are quite possible more so.
On the downside The Northern Sanidnavian counties (ie Norway, Sweden and Finland) have disturbingly high suicide rates but it's geneally reconised that this is more to do with the six month long nights causing depression once you move North of the Arctic circle than to do with any socio-political reasons. Personally I reckon the predeliction for dodgy death metal might have something to do with it too:p
There seems to be a growing trend in the US to condemn compassion as some kind of weakness. I think that's a) a shame and b) pretty frightening in the most militarily powerful country on earth.
NB The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour had absolutely nothing to do with preventing US from supplying Europe. The Japanese recognised that the US would oppose any Japanese expansion in the Pacific for the same reason that they would have (and had, dimplomatically) opposed the Europen powers expandng in the Pacific: because it would have threatened US dominance in the theatre. You'd already wrangled over Japanese expansionism in China during the Sino-Japanese war and the Japanese knew exactly what your position would be.
The US's entry into WW2 wasn't some act of generosityand brotherhood towards you poor beleagured European cousins, it was an act of reprisal and self interest when you found yourself under attack. That's not condemnation, it's the same reason we all entered the war: because we felt threatened. We realised that the war was bigger than any single nation and, if we didn't fight, we'd eventually be swallowed up. Britain and France came to that realisation in '39 because it was right on their doorstep. For the US the situation was remote so it's hardly surprising that it took you until '41 to realise how great the threat was.
Another criticism that's often levelled at the US is that they profitted from the war. They did, but we'd have done the same. If you want an idea of how the British would have behaved if the threat had been distant enough for us to ignore it for a few years you only need to look at our behaviour throughout the 18th and 19th centuries, the Napoleonic period in particular. We constantly took advantage of European conflicts to grab any colonial holdings any other European nation had while they were busy fighting each other, all the time secure from direct attack ourselves.
Nations are made up of individuals and individuls are self interested. They make a profit when they can and avoid getting involved in other peoples problems until they have to.
Frankly, I don't see a 'gap' between rich and poor as being a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by vbNeo
You have understand vbNeo - some people don't really care how much money they make. I know that might sound foreign to you, but as long as people can have enough to eat - and have decent clothes - that's a quality life for them. My uncle did nothing but sell cars and chase girls all his life. He's flat broke. But he thinks he had the best life of all. A person that knows him thinks he's wasted his life. Who's wrong, who's right?
Say I have a $260,000 house, and someone builds a $5,000,000 dollar house next door. Am I supposed to feel poor now - should I complain to the government that I'm obviously not getting mine? Should I believe the next door neighbor should pay more tax as a percentage than me? No, that would be ridiculous. If you feel poor in relation to others - that's your problem and you have to fix it - not the government.
The thing is the 'poor' are a diverse group - you cannot successfully eliminate poverty because 'poverty' exists for entirely different reasons for just about any one individual. I was poor until I was 27 - never made more than $6,000 in one year. But I never felt poor. I had my own computer (i thought i was rich), an apartment I shared with a few friends - I was about as poor as they get. Yet, it was actually one of the best times of my life. If you came to me as an outsider and asked, "Don't you think the rich should pay more of their share so you don't have to be poor?" I would punch you for calling me poor.
Since 2004 - I make just shy of 6 figures - and while I enjoy the luxuries, my life is not all that exciting right now since I have to work so much and I have kids to take care of - and mortagages to pay, and car payments, etc, etc.
So you see, I may not be poor anymore - but I don't feel as alive and free either.
Now, you say you pay 50% tax.
My effective tax rate was just under 15% - and I got a $4,000 refund check from the federal and local government. (I have 3 kids so - I get that).
So let me ask you - Do you feel poor?
(By the way, as far as New Orleans - you don't even know anything about that - not your fault of course - but all the media hyped urban legends upon urban legends without one ounce of proof. Its good for ratings and during a catastrophe - you don't need proof - just a good story).
Next time you feel hard done by I'd suggest volunteering at your local hospital for a few hours. Believe me, financial issues are the least of your worries and if what you see doesn't affect you, you don't have a heart.
I myself volunteer when I can (which granted isn't much these days) but the worst was when a 10 year old boy was going into surgery for a triple heart bypass. Kind of put things into perspective
Being rich has nothing to do with it. My rant was totally directed at people who blame the rest of society for the fact that they don't have a pot to piess in.Quote:
If you can retire in your early thirties, well, what of it? I chose a career that was unlikely to make me wealthy. Most people (except city folks) are a bit jealous of my day to day activities, but on the other hand, I'll never be rich, either. Maybe this was also a result of growing up so comfortably: My objectives were not material wealth (I could always assume sufficiency, though not wealth), but other goals. Those gals (the crew I refer to was almost exclusively female) were raised to a different goal (need I say what it was?), and achieved it. It wasn't a matter of lazy for them, they were successful by the measure they were raised to value, so was I. They will never be rich, and I probably won't either, but it isn't out of laziness, just different values.
Yeah I'll look for it.Quote:
Care to add a citation for that? It is not consistent with what I heard.
No But the levy was assed and funds were provided to fix it. Who wasted the money? They voted for people who knew the problem existed and ignored it. Dont blame me, I voted for terd sandwich. I told you all giant douche would screw it up.Quote:
Oh, now we elect the ACE? And are you suggesting that the idiots you elect are better? Blaming people for their own misfortune is a wonderful way of absolving yourself of any responsibility. You are effectively saying that they suffer because they deserve it. That's absurd in this case. The people didn't vote in an engineering failure.
The only thing I'm proud of is that I'm not back in my home city sitting around with all of my childhood friends complaining that their welfare check didn't cover the heating bill. And then have the ballz to blame their situation on everyone in the world but themselvs. I did not "casually classifying whole categories of people as lazy and stupid because they have not your glorious radiance"Quote:
I'm glad you're proud of your own accomplishments, but you gain no respect from me by casually classifying whole categories of people as lazy and stupid because they have not your glorious radiance. You yourself, despite all your accomplishments, are no more than the roll of the dice away from the gutter.
No, I don't. I pay my taxes gladly, and even so the government still ensures that I have enough money to live good. What I KNOW when paying my taxes is that: I'm ensured my education, even if I drop out, I have a chance to view the world from another perspective, and choose something else. I KNOW that if I, or anyone I know fall ill, with cancer or whatnot, ALL expenses WILL be payed by the government.Quote:
Originally Posted by nemaroller
Furthermore I KNOW that my government will keep investing in the future of my country. Not only are we one of the leading countries regarding alternative energy sources(forgot the right name; but you know, Windmills and stuff), but we're also pretty much in the intellectual high roller club.
What's important to understand about Denmark is that we're such a small country, and our own natural ressources just won't cut it - we need to have a product to deliver around the globe, and we choose innovation.
So when I pay my taxes, I rest assured that there will always be someone looking out for me, or my family, should I take a wrong step on the stairs of life(Yea, I just came op with that!). I feel rich :).
Sounds like Utopia! Don't kid yourself into thinking that your taxes are enough to pay for all the benefits you receive
Consider this, however. Every time you use the words "the Government" replace it with "my Neighbor" because that is where the money is coming from.
For example:
"... even so my neighbor still ensures that I have enough money to live good"
"... ALL expenses WILL be payed by my neighbor"
Do you think your neighbor would hand over his money to you to allow you to live so good if the government wasn't forcing him to?
Socialism is great for those on the receiving end, but not so great for those on the paying end.
Consider this statement:"Furthermore I KNOW that my government will keep investing in the future of my country"
What this means is that the people in your government think they know better how to use the profits from a business than the businessmen that generated those profits. So, they confiscate those profits and spend them on their latest hair brained scheme.
I trust the judgment of a businessman who has proven he knows how to run a business and generate profit more than the judgment of any government bureaucrat.
So, don't ever use the word "investment" when talking about your taxes. This is just spin the politicians have generated so that you won't feel so bad when they come take your hard earned money.
I suppose the fact that Denmark has a load of North Shore oil deposits that produce over 300,000 barrels a day doesn't hurt either.Quote:
Originally Posted by vbNeo
I would conjure a guess a "small" part of your country's success has benefited from exporting 30% of your oil production.
Thats what my parents generation thought as well. Most of them will be working until the day they die now. You government WILL fook it up eventually. They all do.Quote:
Originally Posted by vbNeo
Some nice selective quoting there, Moeur. Let's try again using the whole sentences:-
"I pay my neighbour gladly, and even so my neigjhbour still ensures that I have enough money to live good"
"I KNOW that if I, or anyone I know fall ill, with cancer or whatnot, ALL expenses WILL be payed by my neighbour"
...or to put it another way, "I live in a society where my neighbours and I will help each other out if the proverbial hits the fan". Doesn't sound to bad to me.
It's eay to portray socialism as a system where the people are all taking from society. In fact it's a system where everyone's giving to society.
The Danish Govrnment is currently decreasing the national debt. That seems to indicate that the taxes ARE enough to pay for those benefits. They are also one of the highest contributors to foreign aid.Quote:
Don't kid yourself into thinking that your taxes are enough to pay for all the benefits you receive
Be carefull. That can be very misleading. Decreasing national debt means that they are paying people back money that they owe. It all sounds good around election time, but that money has to come from somewhere. Find out if it is from your social services budget. I don't know much about the danish government and economy but it is something I would at least check out. Especially since "They are also one of the highest contributors to foreign aid". That only leaves public services budget(healthcare, law enforcement, schools.....), Military Budget, or the governments operating budget to cut. Any one care to guess what usually gets the axe first? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
No you don't. You live in a society where the wealthy are forced to pay for your health care and provide you with a safety net if you decide to stop working. This is how it is with a progressive tax system.Quote:
...or to put it another way, "I live in a society where my neighbours and I will help each other out if the proverbial hits the fan". Doesn't sound to bad to me.
In the U.S.:
the top 1% of earners pay 37% of all taxes
the top 5% pay over half of all taxes 56%
The top 50% pay almost all income taxes in the US 96% meaning that half the people in the US are getting a free ride. I can only assume that the situation is worse in your country.
What's wrong with that assumption is that you asssume the same amount of riches is place at the same amount of people. As I said before; the danish middle class is huge - of course some are more rich than others, but generally, we all live(financially, don't qoute this and start a poetic discussion again) rather good.Quote:
Originally Posted by moeur
This in turn also means that a large portion of the population pay almost the same amount of taxes, and the amount of money coming in from the average joe is considerable. Sadly, I don't have any figures to support this claim.
And frankly? Yes, it is a Utopia, can't think of anywhere else I'd rather have grown up in this world - but I suppose most people think this of their nationality.
I think I misunderstood you. Sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterBlaster
What irks me is that people believe the poor are sitting around whining. There are a few. However, I don't find that whiners are more common among the poor than the rich. I've hung out with street people, hobos (there are still a few around), had lots of poor folks working for me, and even know a fair number of rich and political types (my mother was one of them). In general, the ones who complain the least seem to be the politicians....when they are off the floor. I could speculate on why this is, but it would just be speculation, and I don't know whether it was those characteristics that made them interested in the miserable job of politics also made them non-whiners, or whether being in politics made them non-whiners.
As for the rest, the level of whining seems all about the same. Those I have met who have been truly down and out, have generally had no complaint about their lot. The poor that have worked for me never believed they had the ability to be other than they were, so they generally didn't do any complaining, either.
The ones who did the most complaining were the ones who were clever enough, and anti-social enough, that they believed they were entitled to cynically manipulate the system.
People have mentioned others whining about how unfair life it. What was truly unfair was the poor who were so deliberately poor. They weren't whining, because they had nothing to whine about. They felt they had attained the station in life that was their due, and couldn't be convinced that they could try for more. On the other hand, they believed they were where they were meant to be, so they weren't doing any whining.
My basic point is that in my experience, the idea that there are poor people feeding off the system and whining about what they don't have is mostly a myth made up by a combination of the media interacting with those few sociopathic types who want to manipulate the system, along with a feeling in the US that fiscal accomplishment is a mark of virtue, possibly fueled by guilt over that feeling.
In this country, we worship the "stars", and ostentatious, conspicuous consumption is a MAJOR selling point (why else would anybody EVER buy an H2). Ambition is rewarded in every way, and few of us in the middle class to the upper middle class, ever really avoid showing off to some extent, as if all that we have is some kind of proof of success, which is in turn proof that we did it "right".
But I'm disturbed by that. I'm disturbed by the things I own. I justify the computers in that I can use them to construct things that will amaze and delight people. I justify other things in other ways. In the end, I justify it all, but it still bothers me. I'm tied down. I can't honestly say that I am one bit happier than some of the vagrants I've given rides to over the years. I know how nice it is to have a roof over my head when it is raining, but I only really feel that pleasure when I have been hiking for some time, and the pleasure fades quickly when back in society.
What do I get in the way of happiness for my mortgage (I have almost no other bills)? I know what I get for my health insurance, and I know what I get for my tax dollars, and don't regret either one, but where does the rest of it go, and how am I happier for it? So much of my time is just running the race. If I ran harder, I could make more money, but for what?
I spent a couple hours watching a rock one time (not many people will understand that, though most here would understand it if I explained it, but I don't feel like it, as it isn't important). For those hours, I was happy by any measure. Do I work so that I can spend more time staring at rocks?
More and more, I think the reason I work is so that I have enough money to be able to stare at rocks when I am incapable of working any more. All the rest is just baggage that society is saddling us with.
In the US I can see no reason why someone should remain poor.
I used to be poor and now I am considered rich, but only after many years of hard work. What is preventing others from doing the same?
It is no myth. I could give you a tour of about 5 different Low Income Housing Projects near my hometown. Of course, if you dont get beat to near death for being an "outsider" or robbed at gunpoint, you will find more than enough people sitting around complaining that the "Utility bills are goin up and the damn welfare people won't give me no mo money. Thats why I swing crack, ***** myself out, have 6 kids, rob people, belong to a gang bla bla bla bla bla" Maybe you've been sheltered from this segment of society and that is why it is something you've never experienced frequently? I'll tell you what, If someone has enough brains to sell crack or ***** themselvs out, they have enough brains to make money in the stock market or other investments. And if someone is robbing people for a living, they can damn sure flip burgers while they go to a community college on my tax dollar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
No one deserves to live off of the money I earned when they are capable of earning their own way. An no, I'm not a heartless basterd and realize that a minority of people on public assistance are disabled and "can" not provide for themselvs. I have no problem helping those people out as long as they are re-educating themselvs to eventually return to work.
I understand that with money comes more "bagage" and some people are fine with their lot in life. Honestly I'd be perfectly happy living in a hand built cabin in the middle of the mountains without a penny to my name. I do however have a family and intend on providing them with the means to choose whatever path they decide to take.
Taking on "baggage" is the problem that most people have. The reason? IMO it is poor investing. Instead of buying an "x" that may provide some small amount of amusement, spend the money on self improvment instead. A very smart man told me once that at a minimum, 25% of the money you ever make should go to educating yourself. That way you'll be able to make the same amout of money while only putting in half the effort. It's called working smart, not working hard and it is an investment that generally works out to a 50% increase. You can use that 50% to stare at rocks now or later. Personally I'd rather stare at them knowing I don't "have" to wake up and catch the bus to work at 6:00 AM when monday rolls around. ;)
You hang out at that place? Frankly, I've never lived in inner city, which might well be different. The vagrants I have known have been well traveled, while those on the poor side were rural poor. I would not be at all surprised that rural is different from city. I have no idea whether any of them use welfare, but they do use health care, as the socioeconomic class you were born into is a strong predictor of how many health issues you will have, though why this is so is unknown (take all the obvious explanations, and I can assure you that they have been studied and excluded...read a fascinating article on that several years back, and a more recent one a year or two back). Now, what kind of health care do they use? That I couldn't say, but it was always really cheap.
As for self improvement, I think that I would put my purchasing pattern up against anybodies. I've built a fair gym, with machines, free weights, a treadmill, and a PDA based program to generate a workout routine that fits my lifestyle. That covers a portion of the physical side. The purchase of a house that allows me to walk/bike to work is a part of that. Then on the intellectual side, I got into programming as a hobby to do while I was working at a relatively mindless job (trapping fish in the heart of the Everglades, it proved to hold my attention fairly well). I have now taken up electronics to build a robot. I have never owned a TV, and my reading material has become almost exclusively technical, or scientific, or history.
How much of the money I make goes towards educating myself? Not clear. Not even clear how to calculate that. What would I be spending that money on? Also, that figure assumes that educating yourself more will allow you to make more money. In my line of work, that just ain't so. I already have a Masters, and PhDs don't necessarily make better money, though their options are restricted. Should I change my line of work? That would be crazy. I've got the size, but not the speed, to be an NFL linebacker, so that's out, and aside from that, I really can't think of a better job that pays as well or better. Thus, I would have to consciously make the decision to accept a less fun employment for the sake of more money. As far as I can tell, that would be a sure sign of stupidity.
No, Infact I live 3000+ miles from there now, but I did grow up with them and still know enough people to show up there without getting my arse handed to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
You're not thinking outside the box man. People think education and they think what classes can I take to further my career. What degrees or certifications can I get. Granted they are the most important pieces of education. Say your salary is $4,000 a month. Using 25% of that on education gives you $1000 dollars a month to invest in yourself. Buy a plane ticket to Vegas for the weekend and catch a stock market investors seminar or a non traditional investments seminar. Pick up some books on an area of investing that you may not be familliar with. Pick up instructional videos on Real Estate investment market trends or Metals investment trends...... There are unlimited resources for generating income outside of your 9 - 5 that are simple, take very little time and can sit and generate money for you, not the other way around. ;)Quote:
How much of the money I make goes towards educating myself? Not clear. Not even clear how to calculate that. What would I be spending that money on? Also, that figure assumes that educating yourself more will allow you to make more money. In my line of work, that just ain't so. I already have a Masters, and PhDs don't necessarily make better money, though their options are restricted. Should I change my line of work? That would be crazy. I've got the size, but not the speed, to be an NFL linebacker, so that's out, and aside from that, I really can't think of a better job that pays as well or better. Thus, I would have to consciously make the decision to accept a less fun employment for the sake of more money. As far as I can tell, that would be a sure sign of stupidity.
Yeah, I completely overlooked that....because it would be a waste of money. If I want investment advice, I just call up my father or my sister. If I want to learn more about programming....I turn on the computer. When I decided to learn electronics, I did buy a few books, but nowhere near 25% of even a single paychecks worth.
I agree with the concept. People should try to improve, and there is always some way that we can improve ourselves. However, if that is already your philosophy, then when it comes to trying to put a number value on it, you really can't do it. If your life is already built around improving yourself physically and mentally, then who do you blame if you are not rich?
By the way MB, could you package up some rain and send it this way? I'm sitting here watching rain fall past the window, yet I notice that the concrete it is supposedly landing on is staying dry. How utterly absurd that it can rain so lightly that it is evaporating off concrete as fast as it falls.
Waste of money? :confused: I'm sure you have resources that are rockstars in the investing world, but how do you know what questions to ask them? How do they know what advice to give you? What can you do when you need to make a split second decision and have no access to them? Why should you limit yourself to the knowledge level of a couple other people.
Yeah, a few of the books, web sites, seminars, classes ...... have been sort of useless. I say "sort of" because they have taught me what not to do. Most have at the minimum given me new ideas to look into.
You can put a dollar amount on everything including your "Time". Sure a good book on Lumber and Property investing may only cost a $100.00 but it may take you 40 hours to read it a few times to understand it completly. Then it may take another 40 hours to research areas that lumber will grow and validate there is a good possibility that the property market will increase after harvest. Add in expenses to visit and inspect the area and you're hitting your 25% for a few months.
I've generally found that people who are motivated enough to improve themselvs, regardless of the avenue they take, are not people who throw blame around. Especially for where they are in life. But if they must blame someone, they should blame themselvs.Quote:
If your life is already built around improving yourself physically and mentally, then who do you blame if you are not rich?
It's been raining non stop since Saturday night. I'm sure I could spare a couple kegs worth. Hopefully the rivers don't blow out. It makes my commute a real pain in the arse. Melting snowpack mixed with rain can make for a real mess.
Wish we had a snowpack.....sigh....another year of fires.