Printable View
I was just wondering how everyone was educated and how many years it took to become a professional in programming. Im currently in school for Network Admin but might want to get into programming down the road since im educated a little in c++ and VB.Net
I have a Bachelor's degree in English.
I started in IT as a mainframe data input operator. The only qualification for that was being a fast, accurate, typist.
I worked my way in starting with the IBM PCs that didn't even hard a hard drive. You had to boot from a floppy in drive A: and do/save all your work to the floppy in drive B:
When the IBM XT came out in 1984 with a 10mg hard drive, we all thought we had died and gone to heaven. :lol:
I started as a biologist, and got a Masters as a fish biologist. I have never taken a computer related course in my life. I got into programming at an early age on a TRS-80 Level 1 using BASIC, but set it aside through college and grad school. Once I was out in the work force, I decided to learn C++ as a hobby. That led to a greater interest in programming, which led to people realizing that having a programmer around could really help with biological data manipulations. For about ten years, half of my job became programming. Now I am back to code mostly as a hobby, as the agency I worked for realized they really needed a full-time programmer, rather than a fish biologist who wrote code "when I got a spare minute".
Basically, there are as many possible paths as there are people to take them. If you have an interest and aptitude for code and logic, there will be people who want to benefit from that interest no matter where you go.
My degree is in Political Science and I earned that before the IBM PC hit the market. After that I served in the USMC as a logistics officer and got involved with using PC's there and then even more when I went to grad school to work on a MBA. I ended up not finishing the degree because I found that I enjoyed programming a lot more than bossing people around. :D
Essentially, outside of a few training classes, I'm self-taught.
Three experienced programmers and not a computer science major amoung them.
I love it! :D
Am I the only one with a technically-oriented degree? I got a BSEE, worked in communications for 15 years, then started doing programming.
(Computer Science? That phrase was meaningless when I was in school - we were still studying vacuum tubes.)
I got my start when the department I worked in wanted a new application written and the IT department said they didn't have the time. I stepped in and said I can do that. I did the same thing to learn Oracle DB. Never went to school to start with. I finaly got an AS last year (I've benn donig this for 17 years now).
It's ALL motivation!
Nope - I have mine in mechanical engineering but we also had a FORTRAN course for one semester.Quote:
Originally Posted by Al42
But the funniest part was ... we had to write the code on the paper and let technician to enter it as there was only one keyboard ... :lol:
My high school math department teacher formed a company selling software - I joined that organization when I was 17. I missed 45 days of my senior year in school traveling around the country installing systems - gathering specs - and coming back to develop code...
Full time job at 18 - started my own software house when I was 24...
And I still work 60 hours a week :confused:
I never went to college. I learned on my own while I was growing up, took some classes in high school (PASCAL, QBASIC, Java and C++) and after I graduated high school; I had mentioned I aspired to be a programmer to the company I was workng for as an accountant(the title was Operation's Analyst, but I spent my days balancing the accounts the company owned) and the pulled me over. Did VB6 and some SQL/Access database things for them. Moved onto my next job where I learned VB.Net 1.1 and how to maintain networks, intranets (IIS 6.0), DBA-esque tasks (sql2000) and websites (ASP.Net) along with writing programs that generated reports. I was the only developer there, so if it was under the sun - I had to learn it at some point.
Now I'm at my current job working completely with building objects for frameworks that other developers build applications on (the term is "Software Factories," but it spans across all 3 tiers - not just business objects). I had to switch to .Net 2.0 and pick up DB2 knowledge (also alot about cross-browser support). I've also had to learn about load balancing and the intricacies of mass remote deployment and performance testing.
The point I'm gradually getting to is - in my experiences, it's not what you know, but what you're willing to learn. After you get that first programming job - your background and education doesn't matter. Most every hiring manager will tell you "2 years of real-world experience is the equivillent of a 4 year dgree" in this industry.
i have taken no courses and i am not a "PRO" coder, but i am good. I would like to take a computer science and programming course when i get into college... in 3 years...
Next year i am taking a Bachelor in Professional Software Development. And this particular university i am going to be doing it at is good for job placements. And in the second year there are job placements available at Mazda and Microsoft as well as some other big companies :)
At least you will get plenty of sleep:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by dclamp
I had the option to take a couple programming courses in HS, but it was clear that I already knew more than the teacher, so I avoided them. Actually, I would have been happy to take the PASCAL course, but I would have had to take a BASIC course, first, and I had no interest in learning that....again!
I've got an AAS in Comp Sci.... but only because the Air Force used my on the job training and experience as credits (way cool). I've taken 1 ANSI C class.... 6 weeks of ADA, 4 COBOL, 3 Weeks of ASM...... the rest - BASIC (Apple and PC), QBASIC, VB (3-.NET2) Pascal, and many more are largely slef taught. I got into it when I took an intro class when I was .... 7 or 8, I think it was (loooooooooooong time ago). And I've been programming away at the keyboard ever since (going on 30 years now). I was among the first in my HS to take and pass the AP Comp Sci exam (which is how I came to learn Pascal and OOP).
My current job has be doing all sorts of things, working with EDI, XML, SQL, VB6/.NET, Crystal Reports, doing DBA work, support.
dclamp - careful - there are many different paths to take for a computers degree. Local Uni has both the BIS (Buisiness Information Systems) and MIS (Management Information System)..... one is about management, the other is about doing. I'll let you figure which is which And then they ALSo offer Comp Sci ...... it's all so very confusing sometimes.
-tg
Ive got no education in programming, as im "only" 19 years old:D Im going to a university after summer to read "Systemarchitecture", I'll be learning artificiall intelligense, object oriented analysis and design, C# programming, programming for other devices than PCs (game consoles, mobile phones etc)...and lots more.
It'll be fun. My biggest fear is not getting a job afterwards though:(
well i just finished a Quarter of College prep (within a semester of a new class at my school called "Freshman Seminar"). And i figured that i want to go to UCI (University of California, Irvine). I looked at the courses they offer in computer programing and computer science and i dont know what one i want to take.
here at the "Information and Computer Science" courses http://www.admissions.uci.edu/majors_minors.html#ics
also i might take some engineering courses: http://www.admissions.uci.edu/majors_minors.html#eng
EDIT:
i might also want to major in business just incase i want to start my own software store or something....
If it were me, I'd go with the ICS major, and a biz minor...
UCI is a good school.
-tg
yeah thats what i was thinking. Do you live in the US (cal area)?
Naww, tg lives around me - in the Nebraska area.
oh. then... how did you know that UCI is a good school? lol
I'm not a Nebraska native.... I grew up in SoCal.... Rancho Cuca. to be exact. UCI was one of the colleges I was looking at. Ended up settling on Cal Lu in Ventura CO. But never went. In the end I ended up joining the AF, and that's where I've got most of my training at that time (current employer is very good about keeping us current.)
-tg
Oh Rancho Cucamunga. I used to live in Upland for a few years back in the day and Ontario too. Same hood :)
I have a BSEE too as some other members but I had one programming course in VB 5 but i ended up teaching part of the class lol. I knew more then the teacher. :D
I am all self taught and learned allot from the forums too. Answering questions does have a benefit other then helping that person. ;)
i am basicly self taught too. Well, with VB5 i had, well my gardian, he was an electronics engineer, and he would write programs for his work, mostly for the tradeshow booths. and i would watch him make it, and he put it on my computer, and i basicly would figure out how to do it myself.
most of the time i would make the form, and he would write the code :p
but with PHP i took an online tutorial at VTC.com and then i learned alot more on my own.
I am trying to teach myself ASP.NET and i started a tutorial at vtc and i got bored. so i stoped...
Hey I work in Ontario and live in Moreno Valley - small world.
Do you work in the Healthcare industry techgnome?
I have had no formal training which made it much harder to break into 'professional' programming. I just went had took the VB6 exam for a MCP which was all stuff I already knew and had been doing. Then my resume was dress up enough that I got a foot in. Actually I worked cheap for someone I knew doing a 50/50 split between programming and other things which also let me put programming on the resume. Once I left there it was nothing but straight 100% programming since and at a normal salary. I spent 6 years doing the split and 4 after.
Honestly the cert only helped get the interview not the job and that was primarily because it was non-technical people doing most of the finding and initial interviews. A technical person can usually tell if you are full of crap or not within a few minute conversation.
If you one is a programmer in the Onatrio, California area the company I work for is hiring for a .NET developer/SQL DBA type of skill set.
My father wanted me to take Medicine (he was a Biochemist), but I took an Engineering degree (specialisng in Computer Software) instead. I had sufficient credit in the CS subjects in my Engineering degree that I was able to do an extra year in Computer Science as well. As a result, I have two pieces of paper saying I have separate degrees in both Engineering and Computer Science. Weird.
I took a Traineeship at a State Government department on their Helpdesk - good training ground, but a bit stressful for me. My first real job was with a Multinational IT Outsourcing firm. I worked there for 6 years doing half-a-dozen projects in COBOL, Java and C++. I recently moved back to my hometown and got a job there as a full-time programmer for an IT firm.
My Uni degree did come in handy. One of my Managers thought I had done a double Degree (Engineering and Comp Sci) and gave me a payrise.
Edneeis - no I don't... we produce customizable software for the deregulating energy industry to help marketers manage their client/customers. It's a cradle to grave system.
If I still lived out that way or had plans one moving back out there, I'd toss my CV in to that ring.... but that's not the case.
RD - Upland --- geez, sorry.... I lived right on the edge, just inside Cuca on the Upland side. It was eh, OK. The odd part was that I went to school completely on the other end of town in Etiwanda. But I digress....
I think what Edneeis said about certs and interviews is right on. Especially about the bit of smelling the BS within minutes. We had one guy once who seemed to talk the talk, but when I started in on the technical questions I had - simple ones... like the three major classes of ADO (classic)..... it was a like an episode of Lost in Space - "DANGER! DANGER!" ... (btw: Connection, Command and Recordset -but would also accept Parameter as well)
-tg
I started programming binary load lifters...
Seriously though - I started programming at a very early age, on a passed down ZX81. I was advised at school not to bother with computers because there was no market for them.
My first 'programming' job was as a trainee COBOL developer - Things have changed over the years and I now use real languages ;)
COBOL sounds like a cool language i know a couple of people who still work with it. It is mainly used for? Banks and such right?
COmmon Business Oriented Language
It is primarily for business applications and used to make programs that will generate reports. It is a high level language :)
Kk thanks for the description :)
But they should have named it: TALL
Type A Lot Language
I've heard a rumor it was created by a datatypist.....
That could be the case :P
It's generally used as a batch programming language - and yes it tends to be very verbose.
the original idea for it was to be easy for non-programmers to build routines using normal language - however that never really happened.
You can find out all about its history here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COBOL
Seems to be a little confusion about COBOL. It can do everything - just like VB can do everything (within reason of course).
We had front-end data entry programs in COBOL.
Reports as well.
Batch processing is part of the mainframe/mini world - so that's unrelated to COBOL. We had as many batch-command files running BASIC as we did COBOL code.
We talked with SQL - Oracle - all kinds of databases with COBOL.
COBOL is verbose - the language is long-winded.
But that's not bad - it just is. No big deal.
Reports were a breeze in COBOL because of the way a static memory map could be built - with headings in it in the declaration area and other "variable" spots that "filled" in loop logic with record data.
COBOL is still thoroughly involved in the health care processing world. Anthem BLUE/CROSS uses COBOL still - for data entry through claim processing through payment processing. Full enterprise systems. I made more money with COBOL contracts from 1999 to 2001 then anything else - Y2K was great!
Y2K certainly was a money maker - While my wife was sat at home with a friend drinking cheap booze, I was sat in an office with 20 other folks, drinking free Champainge watching the fireworks across the city and earning £100 an hour.
Roll on the next millenium I say.
ok, topic change... kinda.... C++ & Java with CORBA technology.
are these hard to master? or even learn? There is a company i want to work for, and they program using thoes. I heard C++ is kind of a b(....) to learn...
They are sending me 2 books, here they are:
http://www.oreilly.com/store/series/headfirst.csp
http://books.google.com/books?id=5VT...=title#PPP1,M1
I got my degree in Business (1977). I had to take FORTRAN, COBOL, and PASCAL classes. Interesting, but of no use to me. I got out of college and started selling mainframes for Burroughs Computer Systems. They eventually merged with Sperry and became Unisys. Part of the duties of a "territory manager" (salesman) was keeping tax tables and stuff like that up to date on the old mag stripe ledger card machines. It was all in Assembler code. I seemed to do pretty good at it. After a few years, I transferred over to the technical ranks and started installing mainframes in banks all over the mid west.
By the time IBM came out with their first PC, I was a full fledged tech. My job was to translate BASIC programs from their PCs to run on our PCs, so we could do head to head comparisons.
I left them after 15 years.
Since then I have worked as a consultant for a New Zealand software company (4 years) and I have been the IT Manager here for 11+years.
I have been using BASIC, in its many iterations, since its inception. I am getting old now, and I tire of trying to keep up with Microsoft.
Actually, in all my time with Burroughs, I only met one guy with a computer science degree.
Pasvorto: When you are I graduated from college (I also graduated in 1977) there was no computer science majors, or for that matter, classes. :lol:
You're probably right. I never paid attention. But, there were programming classes. I took 3 of them.
I get the feeling that most VB & .NET programmers are not trained with classes in schoool but are schooled by sites like ours and other various means like books, videos and demo projects.
The degree'd programmer usually is focused on the C languages as they learned in school. Perhaps this is also why C programmers make more money too.
True dat.... :-)
I always thought the CS majors wanted to write operating systems, not solve business problems.
I dislike interview questions like this. It's just not the way I organize my thoughts about programming. If you had asked me this question, "What are the 3 major classes of ADO Classic?", I probably would have stumbled over it too, at least at first as I tried to figure out exactly what you were looking for. But if you had asked, "Tell me the difference between the ADO Classic Command and Recordset objects.", I could have talked your ear off about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by techgnome
I prefer open ended questions over one liners in interviews, both when I'm interviewing and when I'm being interviewed.
We have other questions for that.... I've got a pretty extensive list of questions that I use in interviews. They range from the simple "do you know what you are using" to digging down into their personality. Because of our environment, personality is extremely important. We've had people that, while they know their stuff, they just didn't click with the rest of the company.
BTW - the fact that you would have asked additional questions to find what I'm looking for (how to connect to a database, run a query and return the results) is a +1.... we're looking for analytical thought process too.
-tg
A good fit personality-wise is important but this is something that's hard to gauge in an interview sometimes. I know I'm a lot more reserved in an interview than I am in regular work life. Also, the 'fit' tends to change when stuff happens at a company, like when a new manager comes in.Quote:
Originally Posted by techgnome
The interview process kind of applies to the question of this thread. Some interviewers will ask and look for computer science textbook answers to their questions. For someone without formal classroom experience this can pose a challenge. For example, in one interview I had some database design questions thrown at me. I thought I answered them well by briefly describing how I had approached the design in some applications I wrote. It turned out that the interviewer wanted a more abstract, textbook, answer.
It is very hard. But we're getting better at it. Our last four hires have worked out in that respect. Even though they were slightly less caliber than we would have liked, that can be easily overcome with training. In our shop of 12, personality is important. And since we promote within, in a way I am the "new" manager - and I've been here nearly 10 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by bgmacaw
In all fairness.... If I had to go through the barage of questions I have in my list - I'm not sure I'd hire myself!
But then, I don't ask all of the questions of everybody all the time. I'll pick and choose which ones to ask based on their CV, answers to other questions by the others (we do committee interviews, saves time on every one's part), and answers to some of my other questions. Generally, out of the 40+ I have, I'll ask 15 or so.
There are three that I make sure I ask of everyone.
1) Every developer has learned various tricks and techniques that they put in their "toolbox" or "toolkit". If we were to look in your toolbox, what sort of things would we find?
2) Why programming? What drives you to do it?
3) Why are manhole covers round?
Those three questions alone reveal a lot about our candidates, more than some realize.
-tg
I love it! That is great :DQuote:
Originally Posted by techgnome
Those are some good questions.
A Swiss Army Knife. I like dynamic coding so I've built several templates around this concept.Quote:
Originally Posted by techgnome
A SQL Server Screwdriver. I've got a set of database routines that I've been improving and updating for 10 years now.
I don't sing or play guitar well enough to be a rock star. That means programming is a creative activity for me that some will actually pay me to do well enough for me to make a living. Unfortunately, as with being a rock star, age has limited my options when it comes to programming, at least in the eyes of the audience.Quote:
Originally Posted by techgnome
Do you mean African or European manhole covers? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by techgnome
Why not, eh? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by techgnome
Round is the only shape that will prevent the cover from falling in when tipped on it's end. They used to be square. But when tipped up, the distance of the hypotenuse allows the square cover to fall in. Being round, the radius never changes, and so isn't suseptable to falling into the hole accidentally, and striking workers below.
-tg
Here's a follow-up one for you: Why are septic tank lids square? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by techgnome
@tg - you weren't supposed to give it away...
As for septic tank lids - no one goes under them :D
At least I didn't reveal our other question we like to ask.... it's fun to watch their wheels turn as they think it over - right after they give us the deer caught in the headlights "are you kidding me?" lool.
-tg