Wonder why they hate U.S. ???
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/399142...ar_using_tank/
:confused:
Printable View
Wonder why they hate U.S. ???
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/399142...ar_using_tank/
:confused:
The soldiers concerned are scumQuote:
Originally Posted by Juan Carlos Rey
Are these scum also?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR0AlPB1LTU
:blush:
I've seen so many videos / images / articles where US soldiers acted like scum...I wonder how many of them ARENT scum.Quote:
Originally Posted by davebat
I watched the clips
Where is the check and balance?
Power corrupts...We all human.
There was a experiment at Stanford years ago (20?, 30?) about people in power.
The students chose their rolls: Guards, and Inmates.
The first day and half, the students were having fun their rolls. By the third day the teacher stopped the experiment. The more power the guards had or took, the less power the inmates had.
The experiment was going to go seven days.
ive seen many more where the enemy acted even worse ..Quote:
Originally Posted by Atheist
not that im saying what these in this video did was right .. but they werent exactly cutting the kids heads off or burying them alive in mass graves. ;)
do yall really think they are allowed to stop in areas where they would get blown up or shot anyway ..? war is no fun either way .. it messes with their minds.
That was just disgusting.Quote:
Originally Posted by whoandcar
I liked this comment from Youtube:
Quote:
Originally Posted by NettieNeko
I thought we were all a bit smarter here - do you all just believe that video is fact because it's on the internet?
Come on guys - get real...
If you were talking about me as well, then I thought you were a bit smarter than that...Quote:
Originally Posted by szlamany
Not quite what happened...Quote:
Originally Posted by sessi4ml
http://www.stanford.edu/dept/news/pr...prisonexp.html
and they did not chose their roles - randomly selected...Quote:
"resulted in extreme stress reactions that forced us to release five prisoners, one a day, prematurely."
Urban legend certainly does rule ;)
I was close...The store was told to me when I was in high school...some twenty years ago. Thanks for the link.
Those civilians and those children are NOT the enemy. They say they are there to free that peopleQuote:
Originally Posted by rory
Also being in the internet is not a reason at all to be fake...Quote:
Originally Posted by szlamany
Are you being serious? :bigyello:Quote:
Originally Posted by szlamany
I for one am having a hard time beliving that the video is just a prank by some kids that accidently bought a tank and some realistic looking military outfits :afrog:
how yah know they dont have a bomb strapped to them or their uncle isnt sitin round the corner ready to light the soldiers up ??Quote:
Originally Posted by whoandcar
I never said the kids were the enemy though, but I guess if you understood english ya would have noticed that. . ;)
I doubt its a fake either.. just a couple marines with nothing better to do perhaps .. they should have at least thrown them some water but anyway guess it beats cutting their head off .. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Atheist
When you receive an answer on VBForums, do you dismiss it as a lie because it's on the Internet or do you use your judgment?Quote:
Originally Posted by szlamany
The video in the first post is fully edited - even with a voice-over by what sounds like a professional - it's totally garbage.
And the soldier addressing the camera - most likely a script - that's what is usually needed to produce a bit like this. And after you see that person's face you never see that face in action - all edits.
And the stupid water bottle video - the talker is never seen - could be a voice-over - who knows. But 66 seconds shot from the back of some vehicle - with the driver most likely not even knowing the video is being shot - by who knows who is actually sitting their - or where they even are - it's all BS.
Oh - wait - there are over 80,000 views on that first video - 12000 on the second - they must be real. Quick call the networks - never mind - they lie too...
Quote:
Originally Posted by rory
Guilty until proven innocent? Keep on acting like that and you won't have to ask whether or not they are the enemy, you'll make up their minds for them.
if they were guilty until proven innocent ..Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
they would have been shot on the spot.
Its called being cautious ...
:thumb: :thumb:Quote:
Originally Posted by szlamany
:thumb: :thumb:Quote:
The video in the first post is fully edited - even with a voice-over by what sounds like a professional - it's totally garbage.
And the soldier addressing the camera - most likely a script - that's what is usually needed to produce a bit like this. And after you see that person's face you never see that face in action - all edits.
And the stupid water bottle video - the talker is never seen - could be a voice-over - who knows. But 66 seconds shot from the back of some vehicle - with the driver most likely not even knowing the video is being shot - by who knows who is actually sitting their - or where they even are - it's all BS.
Oh - wait - there are over 80,000 views on that first video - 12000 on the second - they must be real. Quick call the networks - never mind - they lie too...
Amazing how some people are so easily dooped. Glad at least one other person has brains.
Quote:
Originally Posted by szlamany
That's an interesting point. We are all well aware that video can be staged, and pictures can be altered. Some of them can be altered so well that the average person would not get a chance to figure it out.
At one point, a picture was 'proof'. Now they are all suspect. Furthermore, all media is derided as biased by somebody.
It appears that we have created a situation where you can simply disbelieve any information which does not fit your conception of a situation. Conservatives listen to conservative sources like Fox News, or talk radio, because everything else is liberal. Liberals listen to....NPR? BBC? Air America? and deride Fox and the right wing talk radio. As long as you can discount views that are different from yours as being slanted propaganda, then you never need to listen to them.
Of course, this means that you only hear what you want to hear, and disregard the rest. Hardly a recipe for informed descision making.
Naturally, the responsible thing to do would be to listen to that media which is slanted both in agreement with your views, as well as that which is slanted against your views (except for Fox news, as TV news without exception is pure garbage, regardless of the slant). If you don't agree with a piece, you should argue from the position that it is true, and see whether it leads to an impossible situation.
Nah...it's easier to just throw stones.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/399142...ar_using_tank/Quote:
Originally Posted by Juan Carlos Rey
I remember that video - from 2003 when the regime fell? The people in the car were looting and the US soldiers being the only policing authority remaining - taught them a lesson.
Juan, do you hate the U.S.? Case in point, the French hate us but they still have to play nice with us don't they? Even though they were heavily involved in the UN 'oil for food' scandal, and were supplying Saddam's regime with weapons in trade for oil. Then when we were mounting a war, they screamed about us being aggressors - when the whole time they were trying to cover their deceitful ways and protect their sales.
But don't worry Juan, regardless of all the media hyped bias and slander against the US, if a ruthless dictator becomes of power in Argentina, and starts whacking off your family because of their religious beliefs or ethnic background, and we topple him, the US army will be there to destroy the car of the people who looted your home or business just as well.
Well put :thumb:Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
Quote:
Originally Posted by nemaroller
:thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
But don't worry dictators, America almost never topples you (unless you have lots of oil). In fact, as long as you are a right wing dictator, we will probably be happy to look the other way whatever you do, and trade with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by nemaroller
Noriega didn't have oil.
Milosevic (not a dictator - but whatever) didn't have oil.
Chavez has oil and we haven't made aggressive statements toward him (other than Pat Robertson who has no government role)
Compare that to Saddam being the ONLY dictator of a country with oil who we waged war with.
Now that you have listed the few that we did topple, would you care to list the hundreds we haven't toppled. Gee, Saddam when he was killing his own people is on the list. Oh yeah, Noriega is on the list, too. Guess he should have continued on our side.
Prior to 1945, it really doesn't matter, as the US had such a tiny army that we couldn't have disposed of much of anything. Since 1945, the list of those we have deposed is dwarfed by the list of those we tolerated/supported/ignored. You've now listed ALL of the leaders we deposed by open force, and two of them were our clients to whom we turned a blind eye as they were doing things we would normally object to.
We aren't the worlds police. The only times we depose somebody is when we feel it is in our interest to do so. Not be cause it is right or wrong (though it is always couched in those terms, as all wars are), but simply because we think we would benefit from it.
As far as Noriega - he was neutral all sides, and we only tolerated him until he became a problem in the war on drugs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
But as you nicely summarize in your last paragraph - why would we attempt to oust all dictatorships - and I would add especially before the Cold War ended - when it would polarize the tyrants toward the Soviet Union.
Saddam routinely snubbed his nose at us for almost two decades, ignoring UN weapons inspections - and because Iraq has oil and we are the enforcers of our defense (and most of Western civilization) - hell yes he was a worthy target.
People say what did Saddam have to do with 9/11? Nothing - Like we needed a reason for toppling Saddam. Bush should have said - "while we're already over in Afghanistan, we're going to do some other housekeeping and take care of that Saddam situation.". Then at least people couldn't berate him as much for his actions in the Middle East.
Not a bad point, except that I wonder how much Saddam was "snubbing his nose" at Rumsfeld when Rumsfeld was shaking hands with him.
You're the one who suggested that we might topple dictators just to be good guys. If a dictator comes to power in Argentina...again....and this time we decide to knock him off, we shouldn't expect the people in that country to regard us as anything other than we are.
We like to think that we are on the side of angels with our actions, but so does pretty much everybody (e.g. the WWII German belt buckle had the motto "God is with us"). However, other people never see us the way we see ourselves. If we want to see how our actions will be perceived, we can't start from the assumption that everybody who isn't us is just too stupid to understand how good we are.
As an example: After 9/11, people asked, "why did they do this." The answer that the politicians stated was that these people hate freedom. That's a pretty stupid answer, except that it fits very nicely with the self image that we already have. By giving that answer, they allow people to be smugly superior, but that doesn't do a bit of good in preventing similar attacks. The reasons are vastly more complex than that, but nobody will ever figure them out as long as they assume that all the rest of the world sees us the way we see ourselves.
When you look at our actions from the perspective of pretty much any non-American, then you don't see a governement which takes actions that are good, you see a governement which takes actions that are unswervingly self-centered and utilitarian. Since both of those traits are useful, but neither of those traits is incontrovertably laudible, we should expect foreign countries to attempt to manipulate us, but never to thank us....and that's pretty much the situation we have.
Hmmm, it occurs to me that your post could also be interpreted as saying "Shut up and use us."
That would be an interesting point of view, too.
Thank god for America, Keep up the good work. :wave:
We seem to go over this same ground in so many threads...
My reason for getting into this thread was to stop what was about to become a free-for-all against some video images that look cooked to me (I've been in video production from before 1980 - but that doesn't mean I can convince someone else the images are satirical and staged)...
At any rate - bashing the US and the soldiers in Iraq based on either of those videos just made me sick.
As for 9/11 - Osama is a "terrorist" now. We built him up in Afghanistan 20+ years ago - but we considered him "militia" at that time. His current goal appears to be to increase arab strength and decrease western influence (and Israel's - probably a key point). The towers were chosen on 9/11 due to the "symbol" they were of western capitalist greed in his mind - at least that's my belief.
As for Saddam - I've said this before - it's all a game of RISK - the west needs countries they control in that region - the whole saudi/syrian/iraq/iran/afghanistan/pakistan/india (with a huge mix of russia) formula is just plain ugly. We've got Putin coming out this weekend saying we are raising the nuclear threat. That's not because of korea, or iran, or pakistan - it's because we are going to build some missle defenses up in the kosovo region - they don't like the geography of that.
It would be truly great - and unfortunately will never happen - if the UN actually had some ability to think globally and had the strength to measure out those convictions. Instead it's just a platform for voicing opinions - that makes me sad.
After the hell of WWI and WWII in Europe (and everywhere else it touched) - it would have been nice for the world to grow up and consider that all humans have a right to democratic self-rule.
Saddam was an insane dictator - a single person using extreme means to control (as in kill) the people in Iraq that opposed him.
Not every dictator kills out right - but I can't think of a single one that wasn't a "personnally evil and greedy beyond belief maniac".
Google for "top ten dictators" and read about some of these insane people.
Does anything I just said make me smuggly superior? Mostly I feel ashamed of my fellow man - I am thoroughly disappointed.
But I never think of strapping explosives on my back (or my neighbors) and sending them in to blow up a market killing more innocents...
:cry: :cry: :cry:
Good post from the first word to the last. Excellent post szlamany.Quote:
Originally Posted by szlamany
I can see why you feel the video is at least partially staged, but that brings up this question: Video is a big part of the information (media) we recieve about ANY event these days. Considering how easy it is to stage things, and considering how biased we appear to be towards accepting visual evidence over other types, is there any way we can reliably measure the "accuracy" of the images we are seeing.
When we see a tank crush a car, it could just as easy be....well heck, if I had a tank, I'd probably run over a car just for the fun of it. The opening shots look like they came out of a recruitment video (gee that camera just happened to be in the right place...could be...or not). The narrator could have done the narration before, after, next week, the previous year, etc. It's doggone hard to know the difference, yet people tend to believe what they see. Is there a system such that the viewer can have a high degree of confidence that what they are seeing happened as the video shows?
I don't hate the U.S. - As an electronic engineer, I admire you, your science, your technology. But there's no wonder if some people begin hating you due to those kind of behaviour...Quote:
Originally Posted by nemaroller
Thank you, be already had a very bad dictatorship, where 30.000 innocent (and not so innocent) were killed/dissapeared. The U.S. looked the other side.Quote:
Originally Posted by nemaroller
As far as Noriega, you never minded he was narco... You invaded Panama when he tried to nationalize the channel... Not before.
And Irak was invaded when Saddam tried to establish the euro to trade with oil... no other country had to be encouraged to imitate him... As long as he made war to Iran, or killed kurdos, he wasn't a treat to the U.S.
And Talibans (and Ossama) where supported by the U.S. when they fighted the Soviet Union.
It's all about business, my friends...
I am sorry to say I havent read all posts here because I just cant find the strength to read through that much text.
The reason I pretty much belived in this video straight away was because of my growing disgust of the US army after hearing/reading/seeing videos about the torture in the guantanamo base. AND after reading about the military guys that killed an Iraq family and raped their little daughter. AND I remember in the beginning of the Iraq war, hearing reports on the TV that the US had bombed civilian buildings believing that it was ..an ammunition factory if I remember correctly :ehh:, its disrespect for human life to be randomly bombing like that.
AND ever since 9/11 the US goverment police people (I dont know what you call them ..fbi cia...whatever) has been on a real foreigner-hunt to just throw everyone they SUSPECT to be terrorists in the guantanamo base. It was all over the news here in Sweden when the US snatched a swedish guy and without a trial nor evidence they threw him in the Guantanamo base and literally tried to mentally and physically torment him into admitting he was part of the Al Qaida.
Now, is it strange that I think this video is NOT a fake? Or do you, szlamany/System_Error, still think that Im not smart for thinking so?
this was soo funny ... man send them down here to our prison if they want to see torture.!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Atheist
:ehh:Quote:
Originally Posted by rory
That's exactly how how the people living in the US do what they do - what you admire is our business - the fruits of all our labor...Quote:
Originally Posted by Juan Carlos Rey
Of course the need for the canal to be kept open was a requirement - a crazy narco dictator controlling that is simply out of the question.
And in the complex formula of cold-war Russia, Afghanistan, Iran and Iraq - the poor Kurds didn't stand a chance.
If Russia still had cold-war strength and cold-war paranoia the whole region we are talking about would be in a completely different state of being.
It would be a utopia for us all to simply work and build and create and share - the fact that it's not happening that way in the world is certainly not the fault of US policy or US military - our policies and military actions are a reaction to poor decisions on that part of insane people, regimes and idealogies...
@atheist - 100's of thousands of US and other troops working toward some goal in the region - if you judge that goal and those soldiers based on the points you just made then I think you are not being fair. We already said that individual people suck (dictators and bad soldiers or guards) - but there is a larger good being attempted.
You respond like those point was nothing at all, "a few rapes/murders/tortures here and there, thats soon forgotten when we reached our goal"...I cant say that I think that is a fair way of thinking. And if you have already sat that individual people suck, why aint I smart for thinking the first video clip (well..the second one too) is for real? Just because I havent worked with video production since 1980? Or is it because I say negavite things about what is considered the world best country (only by americans though)?Quote:
Originally Posted by szlamany
The bad points you mention are not relevant to the goal - those are aberrations - it stinks that they exist - but individual people do bad things. Those bad people get in a position of power and do bad things.
But they do nothing to the goal - exist outside of it. Those bad people would do bad things regardless of the goal (trust me - I lived in NYC for the first 10 years of my life - bad people exist)...
At any rate - your judgement of the veracity of the videos is your's alone - I already said I could not influence the belief of others.
Question for you though - what country do you feel is the most prosperous - produces the most intellgent property - creates the most of whatever you think a country might be judged by (medicines? technology?).
Most prosperous? I frankly dont know.
is Sweden crime free?Quote:
Originally Posted by Atheist
My point...which I obviously didnt make clear enough, was that after all these things happening around the US military, do you guys really think that it is strange that people belive in these videos (including me)? And when they do, are they not smart? (see Ive been refering to the 'smart' bit all the time, since I really dont like being told that I am stupid, or that I lack a brain, because of what I think).Quote:
Originally Posted by rory
And by the way. No, Sweden is not crime free, but I can garantuee you that we are not in Iraq raping and killing innocent little girls (nor have we freed a people from a dictator, I'll give you that), but also the Swedish goverment is not hunting innocent individuals and torturing them without them having a trial.
Per capita, or overall?Quote:
Originally Posted by szlamany
What yardstick? Well..you do say that we can choose.....so.....well, it's still a tough question. Per capita, depending on which yardstick I choose, I think I would have to say: Korea, Japan, Canada, the US, Iceland.....ummm....well, that's probably it....depends on the yardstick, though.
@shaggy - you are in Idaho...
I wasn't asking you ;)
How many of these incidents have occurred, comparred to the amount of crimes from terrorists against the iraqi people and the US forces, Candaian forces, UK forces, etc etc etc .. Just cause Sweden isnt there doesnt mean a whole lot. The Bahamas isnt there either, thats because well we dont have any army worth mentioning, seems the same way with Sweden. Go visit ogrish and you will see that these couple little pathetic videos you guys are posting here are a joke compared to everything else. Come on, in prison here they will drink their own bath water, use 1 slop bucket per 10 prisoners to 1 cell, slop bucket is removed every few days, eat cold cheeseburgers and drink cold sweet tea .. get raped and beaten. .. come out with a 90% chance of aids ... and it doesnt matter what race or religion they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atheist
that so called torture YOU talk of is a joke.
No Pun intended, just keeping it real .. :bigyello:
@rory - thanks - that's been my whole point...
@atheist - and I never meant to call anyone stupid.Quote:
Originally Posted by szlamany
I for one am Glad the US, Brits, Canadians, etc, are there to help us smaller countries .. regardless of politics its the people themselves that are giving their lives and limbs in many cases, and there are bad apples in every society. Many people dont understand that America is not a country of Bush like people, its made up of people from just about every country in the world, all kinds of different societies, religions, races, etc, and the same goes for the US Forces. If someone rapes or kills someone in the US, they dont go and strap a bomb to themselves or plant a road side bomb killing other people for that other persons crime. The law deals with that person.Quote:
Originally Posted by szlamany
Anyways .. i said my 2 cents ..
Keep up the good work USA! :wave:
You cant be serious man! Innocent people are jailed in a very dictature-ish kind of way by a democratic nation...and tortured. And you say its alright because there are worse jails??Quote:
Originally Posted by rory
One torture method they are using is isolating the prisoners under a very long time exposing them to different things such as high noises, intense light, or extreme temperature.
But it doesnt matter WHAT the torture is, there should be NO torture in ANY country. And the US torturing anyone is no better than any dictator torturing anyone.
Question for you Rory, would you be happy being in the guantanamo base?
I wouldnt want to be in ANY prison, and since I have not committed any crime I will not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atheist
However it would be like a Hotel compared to the prison here.
I just said it is a joke compared to real prisons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atheist
Especially when most of what they want to call torture is not being able to eat certain food and read some book.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rory
Why wouldnt you want to be there? It seemed like such a push-over didnt it? A real piece of cake? Compared to what youve got over there?Quote:
Originally Posted by rory
So what you are saying is that the innocent men in guantanamo should be happy to be there? Because they couldve gotten worse off? I am just now reading an article about an ex-prisoner of guantanamo, I'll list what they did to him and you tell me if its fair.
- He was forced to stand on his knees on rock-solid concrete floor for several hours straight.
- The guards beat him regularly
- His beard was "plucked" off 1 "piece of hair" at a time
- Didnt get to was for 100 days and was, as he said, covered in fleas.
- The guards stomped his legs and crushed his knee
- He was interrogated nude.
- His one hand was always chained to the wall, making it incredibly hard to sleep or go to the toilet.
- Rock music was played out loud when he tried to sleep.
I dont see how you can say that it is no big deal? Most of those men probably have not commited a crime either. They too have families at home.
Anyways..this debate seems to be going nowhere..
and you believe everything nutcases tell you? LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by Atheist
The Easter Bunny is real too BTW .. oh yeah i have a bridge for sale here .. its made of gold .. price is negotiable, payment by paypal only. :bigyello:
Well I see from that reply that you are not mature enough to be discussing serious things. And that you have no respect for human life and the well-being of innocent people. I hope you have a good day for I am ending this discussion with you. :thumb:Quote:
Originally Posted by rory
LOL .. whatever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atheist
:thumb: :thumb: :lol: :lol:Quote:
and you believe everything nutcases tell you? LOL
The Easter Bunny is real too BTW .. oh yeah i have a bridge for sale here .. its made of gold .. price is negotiable, payment by paypal only.
After reading your posts it seems you are too ignorant to discuss serious things.Quote:
Well I see from that reply that you are not mature enough to be discussing serious things.
Tell me, how am I ignorant?Quote:
Originally Posted by System_Error
This is how the Jackson Five broke up.
Yeah, this would probably break up the Jackson Five.Quote:
Originally Posted by grilkip
Getting into name calling with Rory is a waste of time. Nobody gets in the gutter deeper and faster on that road.
What's annoying about that post was that you are saying effectively "My argument is correct, and everybody who says otherwise is a lying nutcase."
That's not just borderline delusional, that's the full-blown, wearing-boot-on-head thing.
Question for you though, Rory: You are more ardently nationalistic than any American I have ever met (and I've met some ardent American nationalists), so why aren't you American? If the Bahamas sucks as bad as you say it does, why are you staying there?
you just like picking a fight is all, and this post is so funny it doesn't deserve a response.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker