Is it true that the devil really existed?

Can you prove it?
So what was his real name?
Tiamat?, Beelzeebub?, Pan?, Lucifer?, Satan?, etc...

George Bush? ;)

He/it is a christian concept based on previous religons...

VBKNIGHT,

Do you have something on your mind? Are you taking life a bit to seriously at the mo?


td.

Yes, VBKNIGHT. There is a devil whose kingdom is called hell. To prove this, you must assume/believe that the Bible is true.

i thought its name was jethro? :)

(according to islam)
ya there is a devil.. and no his kingdom is not HELL
its his place after end of time(meaning thats where he will be, among some others...(jethro?) :)....

his name is Satan, or Iblis
he was not a fallen angel..
he is among the beings of Jinn...
blah blah, i can go on

but for now i will just think of jethro when wanting to know who the devil is

Kovan is right. Atleast a Christian and a Muslim can agree on that. Satan will be cast to hell after the tribulations period of believed seven years. I do believe satans original name may have been lucifer(holder of light) and is believed to be the only angel to ever hold two angelic postitions. Satan was cast out of heaven and now roams here. Most people don't believe because they don't want to. You can give people all the proof they want some time and if they don't want to believe they won't. This is something you will have to decide for yourself. If you would like to discuss this more you can email me at [email protected] I may beable to answer any questions you have and if I can't know people who can.

what is an angel?
according to islam - a form of being without any freedom to make decision...
so there for satan could not have been an angel since angels have no free will..

according to islam again.. quran clearly states that satan was of Jinn being..
but because he was so righteus, he was among the angels
then he failed to prostrate to adam
and that lead him to the evil dude he is

so in short
muslims dont believe satan was one of the angels
however, that he was so good that he was with the angels in the sense that he was close to perfect..
and his pride got in the way of prostrating.. to adam
as he claims "why would i prostrate to him, he is made of clay and i am made of fire..."
and this is another example.. muslims believe that angels are made up of light (Nur)...

if anyone want references to what i said
let me know

Jdavidson

muslims dont believe in any specific number of years..

he will be alive til end of time
and he has been given the will to try to manipulate peoples minds, however he is NOT responsible for their actions.
he just tells humans to do something, if the human does it, its humans fault, he is only calling them to do it, but not doing it for them
(all this is clearly stated)
if you want references, it can be provided



[Edited by kovan on 11-14-2000 at 12:29 PM]

I wasn't refering to that kovan, I was talking about the fact that satan isn't in hell the rest of it you infered I said we agreed on. But satan was an angel and angels are capable of intependent though which the bible shows through and through along with ancient jewish documents and writings. Satan was second only to God and in satans fall he took a third of the angels with him.

[Edited by jdavison on 11-14-2000 at 01:22 PM]

so who created Satan then? and why?

It can only be asumed that god created the angel and satan (seperated to satisfy everybody) Why he did is uncertain and was done before the time of man. So in all honest I don't know

<joke>
God created satan so he could have something evil enough to compete with Jethro in Australia
:rolleyes:
</joke>

I really have no idea why God created satan, perhaps it was an "experiment" to create a better angel(is that possible?), that failed..

Satan is a fallen angel. He was an archangel second to God in command. Angels (and the devil WAS an angel) were created to perform God's bidding.

Dennis kinda illustrated my point, which is if god is infallible then if he didn't intend satan to be what he is that would be a faliure.

I didn't mean to illustrate that....

*Dennis holds up piece of paper*

This is the illustration....

*It's a picture of a house*



Ummm.. but seriously, perhaps when adam & eve bit into that apple it allowed satan to expand his "empire"

I think that still counds as faliure, Is there a christian opinion on why satan fell.

He slipped on a bar of soap.

I can prove this just as well as anyone else will be able to prove any other theory.

err soap wasn't invented until 800 AD (by the french ironicly enough, although they used it to slick their hair back, I don't know who was the first to think of washing with it)

do the french bathe???? Does this prove that satan was french?

yes... haven't you ever heard of french devils?

no

no

as far as if god actually intended for us and satan to fall, only god knows. Satan was cast out because of jealousy

12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O shining star, son of the morning! You have been thrown down to the earth, you who destroyed the nations of the world. 13 For you said to yourself, 'I will ascend to heaven and set my throne above God's stars. I will preside on the mountain of the gods far away in the north. 14 I will climb to the highest heavens and be like the Most High.' 15 But instead, you will be brought down to the place of the dead, down to its lowest depths.
Isaiah 12-15

You can read the whole chapter here:
http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStu...lt&showtools=0

Dennis is also correct when adam and eve bit the apple, they gave their authority over all the earth to satan

oh, wait, that was "asian devils"
my mistake.. :rolleyes:

Dennis, what are you talking about?

actually I shouldn't of asked because you clearly don't know.

I was trying to make a joke....
obviously it wasn't very funny...

Satan was thrown out because he became jealous and tried to overthrow God.

As far as why God let it all happen, it depends on your theology. Most people believe that everything that happens is the will of God. Therefore, it was part of God's perfect plan that satan was thrown out and that adam and eve sinned.

There is no such entity as Satan/The Devil whatever. This was a construct of the early christian church, based on previous religons....will dig out an old text book which details the History of The Devil.

Dennis and Kovan

....lol....very droll boys. We all know that if there was a devil then that devil's name would be Celine Dion.

Jethro,
What I gather from what you said is that you don't believe that God exists. If you did, then it says in the Bible that satan exists. What do you think is resposible for demon-posessed people?

Urgent clarification:

God and the Bible are not the same thing. Don't confuse them. Belief in the Bible implies belief in God. Belief in God does not imply belief in the Bible.

I have heard that there was no mention of the Devil/Satan/whatever by the Church before some time in the Dark Ages, or therabouts I think. I don't remember the source of this information, but it seemed very reasonable at the time. Something to do with suppressing a peasants' revolt or something along those lines.

Quote:

---

Help help I'm being oppressed!

---

I'm sure someone recognises that ;)

demon-possessed people.....try looking up mental disorders in your family medical book.

I have never stated l don't believe in God. All l have stated is that my god doesn't need a few extra bucks and doesn't reside in a patriarchical church structure.

Are you prepared to claim that you believe in the christian god, therefore kovan is wrong and on an elevator to hell. That is one hell of an ego trip.

HarryW,
1. God wrote the Bible. It says that in the Bible. If you believe in God, then God's words are written in the Bible. Therefore, if you have common sense, you will believe the Bible. (besides the Bible being the most historicaly accurate documentation intact today)
2. You heard wrong. The Bible was written BEFORE Jesus was born. The first few books of the Bible talk about satan. Suppressing a peasants' revolt? LoL

Jethro,
1. God exists
2. I don't think you have any idea what you are saying about a few extra bucks and doesn't reside in a patriarchical church structure. (is this some type of mental babble?)
3. I do not condemn kovan or anyone else.
4. I do believe in God. (previously stated)
5. This is not an ego trip. These truths are not mine. They are in the Bible. (and yes, I do believe that the Bible is the word of God)

Edwin, I would appreciate it if you didn't insult my intelligence. How many people here do you think are unaware that the Bible (Old Testament at least) was written before 0 AD? Not many I assure you, and I'm not one of them.

Also, I say again, believing in God does not mean you believe in the Bible. No, it has nothing to do with common sense. If you are going to discuss this then you must seperate the concept of Deity and Doctrine. I would ask you what makes you think it's so clear that God wrote the Bible and that God couln't just exist without having anything to do with the Bible, but I get the impression from what seems to be your viewpoint that you would give an answer based on your personal beliefs, which is not the issue here.

I would like to bring to your attention that God wrote the Koran, according to Islamic doctrine. So what now links the concept of a Deity (who we are calling God) specifically to the Bible (Christian doctrine) and the Christian faith? The existance of God is not dependant on the Bible.

Well duh... You said that someone made up satan after 0 AD. How do you think satan is mentioned in the Bible then?

Are you Islamic?

Do you think God made creation? Or, do you believe some alien accidently launched a nuke and caused the solar system including our planet to spring up out of nowhere.

I justify my statements. Deity and Doctrine are dependant on beliefs. Man is ignorant of higher systems. If man knows there is God, where did he learn this? In the Bible. There is no scientific proof that God exists or that the Bible is true except for creation.

As for personal beliefs,
Not trying to insult anyone, but I believe that the Koran is not true. I believe that there is one God and that God is the God in the Bible.

You are not even rocognising the possibility that the Bible may have been changed. I don't discount this possibility.

As I said it was something I heard, I read it on this forum in fact. I'm not going to claim it's true because I don't know.

Not that it bears any relation in particular to this, but no I am not Islamic.

I don't know why you keep associating Deity and Doctrine as dependant on one another; they clearly are not. The existance of God does not require the truth of the Bible. Perhaps this will clear it up for you: the existance of your God, the particular form of Deity you believe in, implies the truth of the Bible. A God in general, however, most certainly does not.

Quote:

---

If man knows there is God, where did he learn this? In the Bible.

---

Are you suggesting that there was no concept of a God before the Bible? That is a very bold statement, and it looks like pure opinion to me.

There have been many monotheistic religions across the world in the history of mankind. I strongly doubt that the concept of God stemmed from the Bible.

Jews believe in the Old Testament, yes? They also believe in God, but they do not recognise Jesus Christ as the messiah. Do you consider them to have belief in the same God as you?

Incidentally, in reference to my 'I wish...' thread on my desire to add music to threads, I think I would add 'Mrs Robinson' by the Lemonheads to this one :rolleyes:

The Bible has not changed. It has been discovered in numerous different ancient manuscripts that were not discovered till much later.

I was not associating your religion with the logic of this discussion. I was merely curious why you brought up Islam.

You seem to be avoiding my question of your views on creation versus evolution.

I concede that Diety and Doctrine are not necessarily linked in all systems. However, they are both dependent on belief. It is possible that you believe in the Bible (existance) but you do not believe the truths therein so you do not believe in God.

There was concept of God(s) before the Bible. However, they were based on worship of creation. True concept of the Christian God couldn't be realized without first
A. Meeting God or a witness
B. The Bible
A bold statement proceeds from a bold man.

Jews believe in the same God as Christians. They do not have a complete understanding of what God has done for them along with ignorance of grace and justification.


What band is LemonHeads? Never heard of them.

[Edited by Edwin_Drood_1870 on 11-14-2000 at 10:54 PM]

Interesting thread... I can't help but play the devil's advocate on this. If God created the Universe, then where did God come from? It's a case that you are trading one unknown question with another. If you say that God has always been, then isn't another just as justified as saying that the Universe has always been? Does that mean that God and the Universe are one and the same?

Personally, I don't care for religions. To me, religions seem to be a construct of man used to control and to many atrocities have been committed in the name of religion. I do believe in a God, I just don't think that God limits Him/Her/It self to one religion.

This is just my point of view.

Well if you'd prefer, there are versions by Simon & Garfunkel, REM, Weezer and Pennywise :) I haven't heard anything of the Lemonheads in quite a few years now, and I know little about them anyway, except that they made a version of 'Mrs. Robinson'. Do you know the song? I just supposed you might approve of the lyrics, that's all.

Anyway back to the point, I see you are concentrating on the specifically Christian God again. Well if you don't want to discuss the concept of God without Christianity then I won't try and make you (not that I presume to suppose I could).

You're right, I have avoided your questions about my views on creation versus evolution. Personally I am sceptical of them both. My views, my beliefs (although they aren't really beliefs) are not easy to qualify, nor would I particularly care to. They are my own and I don't ask or expect anyone to agree with me. Don't worry I'm not a cultist or anything ;) A simplistic view might be that I am a borderline Agnostic/Christian, but that, as I said, would be simplistic.

jcouture100,
God existed when nothing else did. A scientific impossibily but God made the rules. Nothing that I can think of could attempt to justify God as being creation. Can something create itself? No. There is always creation and creator. Your post seems to imply that God shifts from monotheisism to polytheisism when convienent.

HarryW,
No hard feelings? Didn't mean to flame or anything. Never heard of Mrs. Robinson either. Does it have something to do with theology? If so, I think I am tired of theology for a few days... well, maybe a few hours.

I guess you are probably right in the end. It all comes down beliefs. Afterall, nothing as complex as God can be proven. I encourage you to check out the Christian church. Have you ever gone? If so, what denomination? When I look at the world especially nature, I can't help but realize that God created it. The big bang theory has no truth. Order has never come from disorder.

Well my predominantly scientific background means I shall have to disagree with you on the last point, and tentatively on the Big Bang theory. I get the impression you are something of a Christian fundamentalist, is this true? Do you evolution shouldn't be taught in schools?

No, no hard feelings, you have been a very gracious opponent ;) Much more so than many anyhow.

I am sure you encourage me to look at Christianity, many do :rolleyes: My parents wer both brought up Christian, one Catholic and on CoE, but I wouldn't really classify myself as either. If I had to I would say I was catholic, but that's more to do with my opinions on the origin of the Church of England than anything else. I have, of course, been to church, although rarely. It seems like a nice kind of place to go sometimes, but as a lifestyle it doesn't sit well with me. I hold some similar reservations to Jethro in some ways too. In case you are still unaware of what he was on about, essentially he was referring to corruption within the Church, tithes, and that sort of thing. I neither expect nor desire anyone to share my specific thoughts on the subject of religion, so organised religion seems somewhat strange.

If you read the old religious debates (a very long one was 'Why such an effort to prove the Bible wrong?', I think it was started by jdavison) then you will see more of my opinions on religion, but coming from a different point of view to the one I have presented here. You will also encounter some thoughts from my good friend Gen-X ;) He seems to have gone AWOL now though.

I believe that evolution can be taught in schools as long as creationism (is that a word?) is also.

There are some "Christians" (that really aren't) that make it look like the church members are corrupt.

I suggest trying what's called a "non-denominational" church. There might not be one close to you, but it is worth a try. While I respect the Catholic church, catholicism can be very legalistic.

Well to be honest I think the only person who should decide my beliefs is me. One of the things I am not keen on about organised religion is that I don't feel comfortable with finding one that is a close match for my beliefs and then adopting the rest of the beliefs that accompany that religion. I think that whatever I decide to believe will have to come from within myself. If I have learnt one thing from all the theological debate on this forum it is that nobody can prove anything to someone with differing beliefs to them. Proofs are only personal proofs.

Well anyway, I don't have that much to say, except that I am happy as I am.

Oh I nearly forgot - 'Mrs Robinson' is not an explicitly theological song, no. It's a catchy tune though, and I like it :) Why don't you download it from Napster or something? I have *checks mp3 collection* 472 other suggestions if you need any more ideas of what to listen to. I doubt you'd like most of them though :rolleyes:

Science and Religion can't muddle up 2gether?

Yes, of course Science and Religion can co-exist.

You can easily make a logical synthesis between Scientific 'truth' and Religious 'experience'.

I am a Catholic (note: big C) and a scientist (shock, horror). I believe that God has given me the intelligence (and I do have some Harry) to use my discernment to make judgements about what is right and wrong...

I do not discount the possibility that I have got it wrong, but I hope not. I follow the line of Blaise Pascal (who is a bit of a hero, even though he was French!).

If I believe in God and He does not exist, I lose nothing, if I do not believe in God and He exists, I lose everything, therefore I believe.

Pretty neat proof and I guess we could prove His (or Her) existence by induction (that is a private joke for Harry).

Nobody seems to have mentioned Free Will in all this and if it goes on much longer we might have to start up a Philosophy thread.

Edwin: I totally agree that Order does not come from Disorder (that's classic Entropy) but why does that rule out the Big Bang? That theory states that matter was so dense that physical laws break down, chaos is a meaningless concept in that situation, but interestingly, the exact configuration of matter prior to the Big Bang leads to our current Universe... hmmm

Paul

P.S. For Christians: If there is intelligent life out there, did Christ die on those planets too?

Wasn't that a really crap film starring a big fish...

(oh bugger. wrong thread!)


td.

science and religion
Link

also as a believer in ONE God,
i believe there is a lot truth the so called big ban theory
that the fact the universe is expenading.....


[Edited by kovan on 11-15-2000 at 07:54 AM]

I didn't read all this since my last post but saw a few things I want to comment on. What is believed to be the oldest book in the bible, Job, does reference satan numerous time. 0 ad was probably 200 years after the death of Jesus on the cross. This goes according to the jewish calender. Just because you can't see something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You don't want to see something, fine, thats your perogative but that doesn't mean its not so. I don't think air exists because I can't see it, but does that means its not there.

Science and religion can and have coexisted. Its only because of the arrogance of humans that it has changed.

Harry, I agree you should be the one to decide what you believe. There is truth in the bible and I think Genx did this a while ago but proved that anybody can completely warp what is actually said. It is all of our responsibility to find the facts. But just to tell you the church is not always right and you should always challenge your beliefs, wether christian, aithiest, muslim... to come to the truth.

Kovan seems to think he is the only one who believes in ONE God. Well your wrong, I believe in one God. God is a 3 fold being like us who were created in his image. Body(Christ), Soul(father), spirit(holyspirit) but these 3 elements make up a whole being(one). The soul is the main controling figure, this is who we are. The body has a mind (our physical desires) of its own which will conflict with our soul or what we know is right. This is why Jesus can be the son of God and God

i and another BILLION people on this earth believe in one God
so i am not the onely one

we went over the trinity, i and every other muslim feels 3 entities dont make one
thats how WE believe, you believe other wize, very cool and respected

Guys,

Give it a rest. Neither of you are interested in debate. You are both just posturing. Get back to the VB, we're safe there.

td - I think you will find that Free Willy was a seminal moment in film-making history, we of the First Church of Willy Worshippers will brook no opposition on this. Anyone saying otherwise will be fed to the piranhas (in a caring, religious sort of way)<ahem>

P.

actually am always up for a good DEBATE :)
besides if we think about vb 24/7
it will not be healthy:)

Kovan, do you believe we are a three fold being?Do you believe we have a body soul and spirit?

just like every other christian
your trying to prove Gods attributes by having a human as a proof, and saying that, you are trying to say that we are like God, have 3 folds and so does God

here is three RETHORICAL questions:
If jesus died for MY sins, i can do what ever the hell i want and since he already suffered for my sins, then i am forgiven (that is if i believe jesus is way to heaven)

If jesus died, shouldnt god die too?
or now does god have 2 more folds left go to? since jesus being one of them (as you say) died

If Jesus was god(or one of his folds), how does he become his son too?


oh and the bible is NOT direct word of God
its mans interpertation of what God said
and since we know men aint perfect
and neither are their interpertation, what does that lead to?

i guess that makes it 4 rethorical questions

Well I've pretty much said all I have to say on this thread I think, unless the topic changes. I would just like to mention to Kovan, however, that I think his persistent denial that the concept of the Trinity is possible is getting old. I don't think anybody's asking you to believe it's true Kovan, just to understand how the idea works. It's like a clover leaf, three parts to it but all part of the whole. It's one leaf, but with three distinct parts to it. An ant has a head, thorax and abdomen, you don't say that's 3 beings. Each is an integral part of the whole.

Kovan, do you actually believe that God can die?

lets move it to a new thread

Christian belief is based on previous religous teachings of other religons.....notably quite a few which could be considered anti-christian today.

The fact that a few people posting here actually believe in the existance of Satan as a tangiable being, should indicate to you that they are quite closed to religous debate, i.e they have been indoctrinated in their own beliefs and will not change, but caren't see that others may have opposing views.

All organised religon is based on the interpretation of subjective writings, by (generally males) people wishing to maintain, justify their own positions.

As Bono says, "My God isn't short a dollar".

Christian beliefs are not base on previous religous teachings. They are base on the words of God.

People believe that the devil exists. Therefore the debate is closed? WRONG

The Bible was not written by subjective male writers who were trying to justify their positions. The Bible was written through men, but it is the Divine and Holy word of God.


P.S. My God doesn't need your dollar. He owns the universe.

I not a believer in religion but if people believe in that good on them just don't try and convert us no believers okay.

Anyway a good site you all should check out is http://www.religioustolerance.org