Question about abortion.

This is a question for the religious people who are against abortion.

What happens to aborted fetus's? Do their souls automatically go to heaven?

If yes ...

Wouldn't it be the ultimate act of sacrifice for a mother to abort her child?

Think about it.

She is committing a grave sin so her child will go directly to heaven.
Because if she gives birth to her child, there is a good chance that her child might not accept the chosen religion, therefore be sent to burn in Hell for all eternity.

Chew on that contradiction for a while.

my head hurts now

No they go to limbo because they were realy evil in not getting their parents to baptise them so must be punished

There's also the concept of 'The Age of Reason', before which the child isn't supposed to be held responsible for its actions.

Seems like that argument doesn't apply only to fetuses. Shouldn't we kill all people once they are good?

We should try people for decency, and execute them if they are convicted.

You would have to prove that you were a no-good, lousy, rotten, so-and-so if you wanted to avoid execution.

(for all the regulars, don't worry, you are pretty safe).

But then the persecuters would go to hell for executing the just and kind and good people. Since no just, kind and good person would want to persecute, we'd have to put all the no-good, lousy, rotten people in charge of the persecution and execution process.

HOWEVER, since they are no-good, lousy and rotten, they would NOT execute the just, kind, good people... because they are no-good, lousy, rotten people who won't perform their duties and stick to their word!

I like the Wizard of Oz...

Ooooo twisted.

Still, I think history has shown that there is always somebody willing to step up to the plate and kill off anybody who appears to be very good.

This has to be the stupides question I saw in my entire life. Congratulations.

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Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker

Ooooo twisted.

Still, I think history has shown that there is always somebody willing to step up to the plate and kill off anybody who appears to be very good.

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I'll kill anybody except myself for $50k

:afrog:

I bet you eat eggs.

When you eat an egg you eat the soul of a chicken. Can you live with that?

Not if it's a scrambled egg. Then it's just the soul of a retarded chicken. And we know that retarded chickens have no souls.

You could be denying that you ate the next feathered Jesus :sick:

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Originally Posted by mendhak

But then the persecuters would go to hell for executing the just and kind and good people. Since no just, kind and good person would want to persecute, we'd have to put all the no-good, lousy, rotten people in charge of the persecution and execution process.

HOWEVER, since they are no-good, lousy and rotten, they would NOT execute the just, kind, good people... because they are no-good, lousy, rotten people who won't perform their duties and stick to their word!

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Granted, the original question is dumb. But. that's a pretty nifty reply. Not only would they not execute because they're no good - why would the want to knowingly send someone to paradise when they know they are damned to hell? :sick:
What to go capsulebabala, you're enciting a riot! :mad: ;)

In world eventsnow so no more chitchat :)

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Originally Posted by Pino

In world eventsnow so no more chitchat :)

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Uhm, why?

what a horrible subject to talk about, hardly uplifting.

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Originally Posted by mendhak

Uhm, why?

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Because this is more of a 'real' forum :eek:

Only the people are imaginary.

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Originally Posted by baja_yu

This has to be the stupides question I saw in my entire life. Congratulations.

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Just out of curiousity, why? It appears to be consistent with christian teaching, though not christian practice (which doesn't really seem to practice what it preaches).

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Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker

It appears to be consistent with christian teaching, though not christian practice (which doesn't really seem to practice what it preaches).

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I highly doubt it. More likely, someones misundertanding of Christian practice. I'm sure someone actually educated in this area could answer the question in one sentence.

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Originally Posted by capsulecorpjx

This is a question for the religious people who are against abortion.

What happens to aborted fetus's? Do their souls automatically go to heaven?

If yes ...

Wouldn't it be the ultimate act of sacrifice for a mother to abort her child?

Think about it.

She is committing a grave sin so her child will go directly to heaven.
Because if she gives birth to her child, there is a good chance that her child might not accept the chosen religion, therefore be sent to burn in Hell for all eternity.

Chew on that contradiction for a while.

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Well, oh Mr Enlightened one. Answer this . . .

I can hold out my hand, and look at my hand. It is a marvellous collection of cells - but on it's own it is not alive

I can hold out my arm, and look, and feel, smell, and touch my arms. It is a wonderfully complex part of my body (look at the myocin reaction) but on it's own it is not alive but the cells in it are

I can look at my whole body. Remarkable complextity. But chop my head off and the body will cease to exist - but the cells and tissues in it are.

When YOU can tell me what makes something alive or dead and what makes a cell alive and what makes it die you will

(i) enable human beings to live forever
(ii) answer the question of humanity about unborn children.

Until then, well, you know what I'm going to say . . .

Apart from that posting a thread entirely designed to promote an argument of hate, distrust, and general apathy has no part of this forum.

(Oh and as a sidenote . . I understand your question, and I know what you really meant. But the grammer, and philosophical undertones are entirely contradictory. I would suggest you go on a 101 course before you start a thread like this again)

From those last two posts, it appears that there is nobody yet on this thread who feels they actually know christian teaching. I know only enough that this appears contradictory. When those nice, slightly strange, folks in the cheap suits come knocking on my door asking me to pray with them, somehow I don't feel that they have a much more refined view than I have.

If it takes a religious scholar to understand this (nobody here has actually answered it, and most have dodged the question one way or another), then why aren't more people asking that scholar? It appears that they don't know the answer, but it also appears that they don't want to ask the question.

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Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker

From those last two posts, it appears that there is nobody yet on this thread who feels they actually know christian teaching. I know only enough that this appears contradictory. When those nice, slightly strange, folks in the cheap suits come knocking on my door asking me to pray with them, somehow I don't feel that they have a much more refined view than I have.

If it takes a religious scholar to understand this (nobody here has actually answered it, and most have dodged the question one way or another), then why aren't more people asking that scholar? It appears that they don't know the answer, but it also appears that they don't want to ask the question.

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Religious scholars probably answer these questions all the time. But I doubt they do it on a computer programming internet forum.

From the original post, it felt like the person (finally) found a way to "silence" the religious people who are against abortion. And I feel that they are strongly pro abortionist.

I would just like to note that, I am against abortion. My last argument would be religion. I am more against it for humane reasons.

I also think that people that are are pro abortion are mainly young people, who, because it is readily available and cheap, see it as a failsafe procedure on which they can rely in case an unwanted abortion occurs. And because of that, it encourages risky behaviour and unprotected sex.

To all those who are pro abortion, I suggest you watch the short documentary called "The Silent Scream", it can be easily found on the internet.

I can only justify abortion in certain circumstances, like a terminal or degenerating illness of the child etc.

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Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker

From those last two posts, it appears that there is nobody yet on this thread who feels they actually know christian teaching. I know only enough that this appears contradictory. When those nice, slightly strange, folks in the cheap suits come knocking on my door asking me to pray with them, somehow I don't feel that they have a much more refined view than I have.

If it takes a religious scholar to understand this (nobody here has actually answered it, and most have dodged the question one way or another), then why aren't more people asking that scholar? It appears that they don't know the answer, but it also appears that they don't want to ask the question.

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I dont think you need some scholar to answer this question. "Thou shall not kill" from the 10 Commandments should cover it. :rolleyes:

X

I'm sorry but to be "pro-abortion" or "anti-abortion" is frankly short sighted as nothing is ever that simple. A young girl recently raped is now pregnant, but she should not be forced to endure a 9 month pregnancy from this heinous crime. Abortion should be decided on the complexities of each case by the relevant doctors, social workers etc.

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I'm sorry but to be "pro-abortion" or "anti-abortion" is frankly short sighted as nothing is ever that simple. A young girl recently raped is now pregnant, but she should not be forced to endure a 9 month pregnancy from this heinous crime. Abortion should be decided on the complexities of each case by the relevant doctors, social workers etc.

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Couldn't have put it better myself. Abortion shouldn't be viewed as a 'quick fix' but to simply say 'never allow it' ignores the realities of life.

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This is a question for the religious people who are against abortion.

What happens to aborted fetus's? Do their souls automatically go to heaven?

If yes ...

Wouldn't it be the ultimate act of sacrifice for a mother to abort her child?

Think about it.

She is committing a grave sin so her child will go directly to heaven.
Because if she gives birth to her child, there is a good chance that her child might not accept the chosen religion, therefore be sent to burn in Hell for all eternity.

Chew on that contradiction for a while.

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1. You couldn't assume that the fetus's soul goes to heaven, Christianity contains the concept of original sin.

2. To a christian, it is Gods decision as to when you die, not a mothers. The mother therefore cannot claim this as a virtuous act.

3. Murder is murder and would be a far greater sin than sending your child to heaven is a virtue.

4. Good can come from evil acts but that doesn't mean the act isn't evil.

BTW, I'm not a Christian but the point above seem obvious to me.

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Originally Posted by Valleysboy1978

I'm sorry but to be "pro-abortion" or "anti-abortion" is frankly short sighted as nothing is ever that simple. A young girl recently raped is now pregnant, but she should not be forced to endure a 9 month pregnancy from this heinous crime. Abortion should be decided on the complexities of each case by the relevant doctors, social workers etc.

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Exactly what I mentioned above.

For roman catholics it comes down to original sin and final judgement. Everyone is born a sinner. What you do with your life gets you to your final destination on judgement day. I guess seeing that a fetus never broke one of the 10 commandments It would probably won't neeed to book an airline ticket to hell. However, the mother and doctor and nurses performing the operation would.

Abortion IMHO is about as big of a suckerpunch that anyone can throw. Of all the chicks I know that have had abortions, not one of them has a day go by without regretting the decision. Yes even the one who was a violent rape victim. A child is still a child no matter how it got into you. I was on the fence on this issue like some of you until I had my own son. Let me tell you, having a child is the greates gift you will ever get. You may only get one shot at it so don't blow it.

The only case I can see an abortion necessay is in a case where a pregnancy will kill both the mother and child. That case is so rare in modern countries with the medical resources available that it hardly makes for an interesting argument.

BTW: a fact I just read, due to the advances in c-section births, the average size of human heads are increasing. Something to do with larger headed babies and mothers dying during child birth. pretty neat.

http://www.watchtower.org/library/g/...article_03.htm
read the 3rd paragraph

Well that is enlightening. Apparently it is against the bible to marry someone not of your religion....how very discriminatory, and how very sad in this modern world

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Originally Posted by Valleysboy1978

Well that is enlightening. Apparently it is against the bible to marry someone not of your religion....how very discriminatory, and how very sad in this modern world

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I dunno, it sort of makes sense. If someone actually follows the bible teachings down to that level of scrutiny, it would probably be a good Idea that they marry someone who shares that belief. Marriage is a PITA to begin with, conflicting religions just make it even worse. I think the point they are making is that you should marry someone you are compatable with.

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Originally Posted by MasterBlaster

I dunno, it sort of makes sense. If someone actually follows the bible teachings down to that level of scrutiny, it would probably be a good Idea that they marry someone who shares that belief. Marriage is a PITA to begin with, conflicting religions just make it even worse. I think the point they are making is that you should marry someone you are compatable with.

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Yes that is true, if you did not have a marrage mate that had similar intrests and likes, you wouldnt get allong, likewise differing religious beliefs would conflict with one another, which might damage the marriage and make it hard to keep good spritual values.

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Originally Posted by FunkyDexter

1. You couldn't assume that the fetus's soul goes to heaven, Christianity contains the concept of original sin.

2. To a christian, it is Gods decision as to when you die, not a mothers. The mother therefore cannot claim this as a virtuous act.

3. Murder is murder and would be a far greater sin than sending your child to heaven is a virtue.

4. Good can come from evil acts but that doesn't mean the act isn't evil.

BTW, I'm not a Christian but the point above seem obvious to me.

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That argument assumes that all actions taken by the mother are selfish. Certainly she shouldn't expect salvation for that act, but that's not the point. Is the act altruistic? The target benefits, at the cost of the perpetrator. By your argument, any cost to the perpetrator should dissuade them from benefitting their child.

Basically, christians seem to be treating heaven as a consolation prize: You really don't want to go there, but if you have to go somewhere, that's better than the alternative. However, the statements I have heard is always that heaven is a reward, not a consolation.

Since we are into disclosure, my view is that if there is something after death, and my actions are deemed insufficient for salvation, then I am content with that. It is axiomatic (assumed to be true) in most religions, that god is good. I see no conclusive proof of that assertion, and plenty of proof that the issue remains in doubt. If the axiom is false, then "The lord is my shepherd." takes on a whole new meaning. After all, shepherds eat plenty of mutton.

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Originally Posted by damasterjo

Yes that is true, if you did not have a marrage mate that had similar intrests and likes, you wouldnt get allong, likewise differing religious beliefs would conflict with one another, which might damage the marriage and make it hard to keep good spritual values.

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Really? I have had a couple of girlfriends who were deeply religious (one catholic the other christian). However it was never an issue as we respected each others beliefs and leave it at that.

So I have to find a girl who enjoys computer games, karate, getting drunk with the boys and lazing around....I think I'm going to be single for the rest of my life according to that philosophy!

Ever heard the phrase "opposites attract"? ;)

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Originally Posted by damasterjo

http://www.watchtower.org/library/g/...article_03.htm
read the 3rd paragraph

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Argh! Jehovahs witnesses!! I wouldn't refer to that when looking for a general view on these issues from Christians.

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Originally Posted by Valleysboy1978

Really? I have had a couple of girlfriends who were deeply religious (one catholic the other christian). However it was never an issue as we respected each others beliefs and leave it at that.

So I have to find a girl who enjoys computer games, karate, getting drunk with the boys and lazing around....I think I'm going to be single for the rest of my life according to that philosophy!

Ever heard the phrase "opposites attract"? ;)

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Girlfriends ans Wives are two totally different beasts my friend :lol:

I know a guy who is not religious, but who's wife goes to church every Sunday. I never asked him about it. Apparently, it is possible to have a mixed faith marriage, but it sure seems tricky. I suppose if both are backsliding <your faith here>, that would work out ok.

Yeah, my buddies wife is like that. The lucky basterd gets to watch football undisturbed every Sunday :)

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Originally Posted by demotivater

Argh! Jehovahs witnesses!! I wouldn't refer to that when looking for a general view on these issues from Christians.

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Aren't there more than 144,000 Jehovah witness's? They believe that only 144,000 people will go to Heaven at the end of the world (literal interpretation of Revelations).

If so, they can't all go to heaven when Armaggeddon comes.

From some posts, people are very defensive, accusing me of spreading hate which is ridiculous. I'm just pointing out ethical contradictions in your religion. And they sprout up because your religion was created before ethics was fully developed by philosophers and thinkers.

Modern ethics include the idea that group punishment is wrong, people should have personal libert, all people should be equal under the law, and that torture is evil (especially eternal torture). All of those ideas are not supported by most of the Hebrew derivied religions.

The way people reconcile this contradiction is cherry pick or spin what they want to hear from their religious texts.

BTW, I think abortion is distasteful on a personal level, though I think it should be an option in the first trimester as it is now.

My OP was more about trying to point out that the idea about Hell/Heaven itself is flawed.

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Originally Posted by capsulecorpjx

From some posts, people are very defensive, accusing me of spreading hate which is ridiculous. I'm just pointing out ethical contradictions in your religion. And they sprout up because your religion was created before ethics was fully developed by philosophers and thinkers.

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Who is "Your" and what religion are you refering to?

ethics was fully developed by philosophers and thinkers? :confused: :lol:

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Originally Posted by yrwyddfa

Well, oh Mr Enlightened one. Answer this . . .

I can hold out my hand, and look at my hand. It is a marvellous collection of cells - but on it's own it is not alive

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If I lob your hand off, I bet I could make the hand muscles expand and contract with electricity - I could even have it hooked up to IV's and a dialysis machine and keep it alive for a very long time.

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I can look at my whole body. Remarkable complextity. But chop my head off and the body will cease to exist but the cells and tissues in it are.

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That's not entirely true either. Have you ever heard the term 'running around like a headless chicken'?

Point is, you're taking a very interrelated mechanism and disrupting immensely vital parts of it. Because of the dependant relationships, you need to replace or simulate the part that you're removing - and if you could, you would have a body just as operational as when it had your mug on it.

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When YOU can tell me what makes something alive or dead and what makes a cell alive and what makes it die you will

(i) enable human beings to live forever
(ii) answer the question of humanity about unborn children.

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Can you tell me whether green is blue or yellow? Really depends on what you're looking for.

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Originally Posted by yrwyddfa

Well, oh Mr Enlightened one. Answer this . . .

I can hold out my hand, and look at my hand. It is a marvellous collection of cells - but on it's own it is not alive

I can hold out my arm, and look, and feel, smell, and touch my arms. It is a wonderfully complex part of my body (look at the myocin reaction) but on it's own it is not alive but the cells in it are

I can look at my whole body. Remarkable complextity. But chop my head off and the body will cease to exist - but the cells and tissues in it are.

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Thats a silly question. Your body dies when your head is cut-off because of that giant gapping whole that leaks your blood. Your tissues require a constant flow of blood containing oxygen and nutrients to survive. So when you get your head cutoff, the rest of the body is dying from blood-loss (or more specifically oxygen deprvation at a tissue level).

Now if you seal off where your head gets cut off. I'm not sure then, I think your heart and lungs require your brainstem to keep functioning. So if they stop, then the rest of your body again, dies from oxygen starvation.

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When YOU can tell me what makes something alive or dead and what makes a cell alive and what makes it die you will

(i) enable human beings to live forever
(ii) answer the question of humanity about unborn children.

Until then, well, you know what I'm going to say . . .

Apart from that posting a thread entirely designed to promote an argument of hate, distrust, and general apathy has no part of this forum.

(Oh and as a sidenote . . I understand your question, and I know what you really meant. But the grammer, and philosophical undertones are entirely contradictory. I would suggest you go on a 101 course before you start a thread like this again)

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A cell is alive when it's still processing matter and maintaining homeostasis.

Animal cells die because (from my genetics class), everytime your cell divides a bit of genetic material comes loose from the ends, so eventually your cell will not be able to produce the same proteins as before, therefore aging and death.

Cellular aging and death serves two purposes (my speculation):
1) Prevents cancer (uncontrollable cell division).
2) Death is a benefit to evolution. Having kids and dying (instead of living forever and taking resources from your kids) creates new, slightly modified versions of you, and change is curcial to survive evolution.


As for the humanity of unborn children, that is up to debate. I really don't know, but I'm just gonna go along with the first tri-mester thing (abortions legal in first trimester).

But think about it this way, if you take a zygote, and split it, now you have twins. In theory, you can split it infinitely at that stage, therefore have infintely many people.

So what is a zygote? One person or infinte number of people? If you do not split a zygote, are you killing their twin?

Also, accusing me of hate or distrust without giving any points to how that is, is not very constructive. Accusing me of apathy is even more ludicrous. I'm just raising questions on the morality of Hell and the ethical contradictions of old religions. You may feel its "hate" because it threatens your belief system. But Hate is if I promoted violence against people, not challenge belief systems.

That bit about the zygote is pretty good. If life begins at conception, then identical twins are a single person. If there is a soul, it must enter once the number of people has been determined, or else there would have to be multiple bodies for a single soul. That's a pretty wacky idea.

The bit about the genetic material loss sounds just a bit off, but pretty close. I think those are called teleomeres, and they do appear to shrink with each division of the cell, but I don't think that anybody has explained how this causes aging, though I seem to remember some studies that strongly suggested this to be a causitive factor.

Why organisms dies is an odd puzzle. A single bacteria can divide. After division, which of the resulting organisms is the original, and which is the copy? I suppose the original, if there is one, is the one with the molecules in the original strand of DNA. However, the new copy is a perfect clone. In the abscense of memory, if the original is eaten by an amoeba, is the organism dead?

As you get more complex, the question of what is a discrete, unique, organism becomes defined very quickly. There seems to be a good advantage to living forever, since a male, at least, would be able to reproduce for a long time. I suppose life isn't a stable state. Things fall apart, the center doesn't hold.....in the end: You were eaten by a grue!

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Originally Posted by capsulecorpjx

Aren't there more than 144,000 Jehovah witness's? They believe that only 144,000 people will go to Heaven at the end of the world (literal interpretation of Revelations).

If so, they can't all go to heaven when Armaggeddon comes.

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Yes there are over 6,500,000 and more than One million in the United States alone. And yes we do beleive that 144,000 will go to heaven to help rule over the people who will live on the earth forever.

If God never lies, and he created Adam and Eve to "fill the earth and subdue it" - then why would Satan meesing up there lives change that original purpose? That is why he sent his son Jesus to die for a ransom, to attone for Adams death, (A perfect man for a perfect man) so that we can have repentance from our sins.

So since God dosent lie and his original purpose was for the whole earth to be a paradice, it will happen...

Think about this, if Adam and Eve would not have eaten the fruit and sinned, where would they be today... ?

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Originally Posted by damasterjo

Yes there are over 6,500,000 and more than One million in the United States alone. And yes we do beleive that 144,000 will go to heaven to help rule over the people who will live on the earth forever.

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So how can you be sure that that is not what is going on right now. 144.000 people are in heaven right now. And they are ruling over the rest of us who live on earth forever?

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Originally Posted by nemaroller

That's not entirely true either. Have you ever heard the term 'running around like a headless chicken'?

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A cockroach can live a week without its head. The roach only dies because without a mouth, it can't drink water and dies of thirst.

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Originally Posted by capsulecorpjx

I'm just raising questions on the morality of Hell and the ethical contradictions of old religions. You may feel its "hate" because it threatens your belief system. But Hate is if I promoted violence against people, not challenge belief systems.

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Let's just say that Hell and religion in general were invented by the ruling minority as means of controling the poor, working majority of people. Promising them heaven if they obey, and threatning them with hell and eternal suffering if they do not.

Funny thing is - according to the door to door religon salesmens religon, the 144,000 are already chosen. Of course, they don't tell you that at the door. So, sign on the line and prepare to be damned for there are no more vacancies! LOL - Bike riding, tie wearing, brainwashed morons.

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Originally Posted by Capsulebabala

I'm just pointing out ethical contradictions in your religion.

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You'll have to back that up a bit. Start by pointing out what religon you're picking on, then produce your evidence of expertise in said religon.

While we are on the subject of religion, who here has the balls to pick on Scientology? :)

Can you belive I only heard of it a few days ago. And look at this, they have a device called "Mark Super VII Quantun E-meter" which costs almost $5.000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-meter

What interests me is, what makes it "quantum"? Does it operate on quantum physics priciples?
Their website reffers to it as a "religious artifact" :)

Two words: Tom Cruise

The power of Scientology

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Originally Posted by demotivater

Two words: Tom Cruise

The power of Scientology

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This one has loads of interesting clips http://www.scientomogy.info/

All living thing things age and die because all living things require oxygen in some manner. As Oxygen is a corrosive it will cause deterioration of our bodies, gradually.

Not all. Maybe somewhere (or some time) there will be mutant creatures living on nuclear power and they wont require oxygen :D

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Originally Posted by baja_yu

Not all. Maybe somewhere (or some time) there will be mutant creatures living on nuclear power and they wont require oxygen :D

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Now theres a bloke with an open mind! :)

"Open mind"?
perhaps if each word was re-worded to "Empty head"

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That argument assumes that all actions taken by the mother are selfish. Certainly she shouldn't expect salvation for that act, but that's not the point. Is the act altruistic? The target benefits, at the cost of the perpetrator. By your argument, any cost to the perpetrator should dissuade them from benefitting their child.

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The original post attempts to set up a condradiction (and therefore paradox) of morality that an anti-abortion christian would be unable to answer - presumably in an attempt to debunk their belief system (eg. 'How can it be right while this contradiction exists?'). That contradiction only exists if the christian judges the balance of morality as displayed by the mother to be 'good'. I merely demostrated why, in terms of a christian outlook, the balance would not be 'good', ergo, there is no contradiction and the belief system stands up.

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Have you ever heard the term 'running around like a headless chicken'?

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The chicken only actually continues to run around while enough of the brain stem is left intact. In chickens, the brain stem extends a long way down the neck so this can often happen, however once the remaining portion dies the chick clucks it's last. If you want to read something really amusing, if a little grotesque, do a google search for 'Mike the headless chicken' - and it's not a hoax.

>>Found a link to Mike. Be warned, it is a little grotesque but I don't think anyone here will really be bothered by it.

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Originally Posted by baja_yu

A cockroach can live a week without its head. The roach only dies because without a mouth, it can't drink water and dies of thirst.

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Those damn cockroaches really like to show off...

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Originally Posted by FunkyDexter

Found a link to Mike. Be warned, it is a little grotesque but I don't think anyone here will really be bothered by it.

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I think we can all learn something from 'Mike'... I just don't know what exactly that is yet.