Sympathies to all those involved
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Sympathies to all those involved
Agreed, and good luck to those yet to be involved :thumb:
Same here.
Most of family lives in/around New Orleans. I am very concerned.
I hope they're all OK. This is a nasty storm . . .Quote:
Originally Posted by Cander
Keep us up to date with any news buddy. I'm sure they'll be fine :thumb:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cander
The eye of the storm went right over my uncles house, but he had gone to Alabama a couple days ealier to get out of the path of the storm. My cousin is moving north (to live with my other cousin) because the place where he was working is closed and he has to find a job.
Thanks everyone. I just got word that everyone is ok. 1 of my aunts however has lost everything. Their house is completely gone. :cry:
My mother luckily didnt live where they used to which was right on the Mississippi river. I saw pictures of that area and its completely submerged.
So sad.
At least she's alive dude, something to be thankful for as property can be replaced in time. Glad to hear they are all alive though :thumb:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cander
Thanks for the update.
I went through that last year. My 99 year old grandmother, and elderly aunt were right in the path of Charlie. It's all just a giant game of roulette (with the storm being the wheel) in that part of the country. I always wanted a storm while I lived down there, but then, I had nothing to lose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cander
I did try to convince my landlady that she really had to get out of the Florida Keys if a Cat 3 or above was aimed at them. She didn't understand the concept of the storm surge, thought it was just big waves.
I'm amazed that the most serious damage to NO may be happening AFTER the storm.
umm excuse my ignorance... but do these storms usually harm certain cities? or is it always random?
I can't believe all the people that stayed. They were arresting looters an hour after the storm hit. Other people were drowning in their attic. I guess that all we can do is to hope for the best, but I'd have been the first one out, if I got the chance. How about the people that were in the dome that got hit? They're getting bussed to somewhere else. What a mess!
As a general rule, the storms are 'born' just to the west of Africa. They float westwards picking up energy from warm near equatorial seas making landfall somewhere in or around the Gulf Of Mexico/Caribbean.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPolite
They become more frequent in around a 40 year cycle(1920/1960/2000) Not much is understood why this should be the case. There are erroneous 'facts' cycling around about global warming, and El Nino, but there's no evidence to support that either makes the frequency of Cat4/5 storms increase.
As for is it random? The answer is no. The storms follow the laws of physics (thermodynamics/hyrdodynamics) like everything else. Like most weather phenomena it's reasonable easy to produce mesoscale forecasts (it's heading for the carribean) but at a local level (it's heading for New Orleans) it's extremely difficult.
Yeah a storm surge is bad news.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
Most people think that a storm surge is caused by winds whipping the water up. This might be moderately true in some cases.
In Katrina the storm surge was caused by the intense low pressure of the system itself.
High, and Low pressure is essentially a measure of how much vertical atmosphere there is above a given point. Clearly if you have high pressure the water beneath is compressed. The opposite is true for low pressure.
We, here in the UK, occasionaly (once a century) get a low pressure system moving across Scotland, and then South down the North Sea. The simple pressure change has contributed to storm surges along the east/south-east coast of England of up to four metres. People perish every time.
I drives me insane watching some of these reports.
One guy in New Orleans was on tv and said "It was horrible, I was in the living room when the eye passed over. I ran into the basement which filled up with water. I almost died, it was terrifying"
THEN WHY WERE YOU THERE YOU IDIOT??????!!!!! :mad:
They are warned that a hurricane is on its way, evacuate now. I would pack up as much stuff as possible and go up north to New York for the weekend. Why in the world would someone want to stay in a wood house while a category 5 (although later a cat 4) hurricane is on its way!?! WHY??? WHYYYYYY????
It has to be lack of education. Some people, I presume, do not understand what a Cat5 storm is, and are therefore not concerned enough to take the warnings seriously.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valleysboy1978
Valley: If I told you that a MCS (Mesoscale Convective System) combining with frontogenesis, and a weak cold-front was just about the occur over your house, would you:
(i) Stay indoors
(ii) Ignore me, and go outside.
I would get onto the net asap and check out what it was. If it is a threat I would go somewhere safe, like a family or friends house. My life is not something I would risk. Besides, a hurricane is ever so slightly better known that an MCS.Quote:
Originally Posted by yrwyddfa
I would also likely be at risk from an MCS as my house is at the base of a large hill
and come on, it's not like the US isn't experienced with hurricanes. They have around 6 of these every year, granted usually by Florida but still you'd think they would know enough about hurricanes to know this is something you just get out if its way
Yes I know I picked a rather extreme example to make my point.
This example is what happened in the atmosphere to cause the Birmingham tornado.
The point I meant to make was that meteorological classifications are generally meaningless to the lay-person.
Cat5 is meaningless. What is the category scale 1-20? If that was the case you'd stay put, assuming Cat5 was not the highest on the scale.
In my opinion there should be descriptive categories such as Notable/Significant/Exceptional/Severe/Extreme.
if this was the case then everyone would listen when an 'Extreme' warning was issused. Even normal newscasters could convey the simple message that this thing is going to costs lives.
When they informed the people of winds reaching 150mph, that should be clear enough. I certainly wouldn't want to stick around to see it. If I was a tourist there (was in Florida beginning of August) I wouldn't stick around. My friends and I were all in agreement that if a hurricane was coming we'd all rent a car and go up north for a week. It's just not worth the risk.
The Birmingham tornado was different because the so-called experts didn't predict it so there was no warning and no chance of evacuation.
That's not true. TORRO (the UK authority for tornadoes) issued a warning 6 hours hence. The media just didn't report it . . .Quote:
Originally Posted by Valleysboy1978
Says a lot about the media doesn't it, especially as it is surely their weather reporters responsibility to report a tornado in Birmingham. What are we paying our license for!?!
Actually national weather forecasting comes under a Statutory obligation from the government. The vast majority of data comes from the Met office which has a duty to provide the best value for the public purse. Only the BBC has the duty to report the weather. At their forecasts, at the best of times, is dumbed down beyond belief.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valleysboy1978
The BBC did mention tornadoes in their morning broadcast; but the locality, nor severity was not mentioned.
Amateur weather websites predicted a Midlands tornado from around 6am on the said morning.
I'm surprised the BBC hasn't been criticised over it. I can just imagine their report
"...in Wales there will be sunny spells and in England there will be a tornado at some point today. Now back to the news."
The BBC obviously assume the British population has the relative intelligence of a poodle.
In their defence the vast majority of people don't even watch the weather, and when they do they just want to know is it going to be sunny enough today to have a BBQ.
They are somewhat beween a rock and a hard-place. License payers would go ape if they allocated 10 minutes for an indepth weather forecast.
Besides you can get reasonable forecasts if you listen to the shipping forecast on BBC Radio 4 - you're just never going to get it on prime-time tv.
Still, even if they said there was a severe weather warning in Birmingham with a potential tornado that would be enough to raise peoples awareness. If they don't watch the weather well there's no much else the Beeb can do.
I suppose they may not want to cause widespread panic too. Tough call.
The problem with 'severe' weather warnings is that the Met Office (and hence the BBC) issue them all the time. It is indeed a rare occasion that we get severe weather events.
I would call 'Severe' what's happened in New Orleans, and not half an inch of surface water on the M4.
On the YrWyddfa Weather Extremity Scale (Notable/Significant/Exceptional/Severe/Extreme) I would call it 'Notable'
The Birmingham tornado (on my scale) would probably be a 'Significant' event. The 1987 October storms I would call 'Exceptional'
agreed :thumb:
YrWyddfa Weather Extremity Scale
Notable/Significant/Exceptional/Severe/Extreme
Notable
Weather conditions may impeed normal day to day activities. Modern buildings remain intact. Care will be needed in some localised conditions
Significant
Weather conditions will impeed normal day to day activities. Some care may
need to be taken as conditions will present a danger to life. Modern buildings may sustain some minor damage
Exceptional
Day to day activities will be affected. Unless precautions are taken weather conditions will cause loss of life. Some modern buildings will sustain some damage
Severe
Some loss of life expected, modern buildings will be damaged
Extreme
Major loss of life expected, modern buildings will be destroyed
Oh look! I'm laughing so much my sides are splitting :rolleyes:
I'm not Welsh.Quote:
Originally Posted by penagate
I find it difficult to find a sense of humour when signficant numbers of people are injured or dead.
The point of the conversation was to provide a better way of informing individuals so they could better save themselves.
Is that worth a joke?
I know you're not Welsh :confused:
I don't think there's any situation where it's worth losing your sense of humour, but seeing as it obviously upsets you, it's gone.
My sincerest condolences to those affected by the hurricane.
worht a joke --- eeeeh... iffy at best. Sometimes that's the way to deal with tragedy.
Anyways... to answer some of the points brought up in this thread.... I only scanned through most of it, so this may be repeat info.
First up, the damage in NO was mostly a result of the levees busting, not so much from the hurricane itself. Most of the damage the hurricane did cause was in the Biloxi/Gulfport area where the eastern edge of the storm hit the hardest. That's also why alot of people were still holed up in their homes and such when the water started rising. No one expected the dams and levees (which had worked jsut fine in past years) to be breached. A lot of people under estimated the punch that Katrina would pack as well. Also, in order to get out of town, you have to BE ABLE to get out of town. There's a good number of people (I think that I heard 60% but it seems high) in the NO area are classified in the poverty level. Odds are they aren't going to have a car to get out of town with. And even if they did, *** are they going to go?
This is only the third Cat 5 hurricane (even though it was down graded at the last minute, it was only a thin line between the two) to hit land.
Yesterday Pres Bush flew over NO to look at the damage.... what about flying over Biloxi and seeing the entire neighboorhoods that are now gone. There was one vid that I saw that showed a street in Gulfport.... all that remained was the three steps leading up to each house. Everything else is gone.
What I want to know, and the thing that I haven't seen covered.... is all those people in the bayou.
But anyways, it's not just NO that was hit hard by this, the entire region has been dealt a pretty bad blow. It's going to take some time to recover, but it'll happen. I saw some plans last night on how they are going to get the h2o out of NO.... Seems kind of ingenous, and at the same time a little bit stupid. But it's crazy enough it just might work.
-tg
We, of course, get the reports of what's going on over here in England, but what's the feeling over there in the States?
Does this feel like an international event?
I can assure you that the sympathies of everyone I've talked to (England, Germany, Holland, Denmark) is with the US.
Politics (and whatever) don't come into it. We're talking about real people here in real trouble.
I'm disappointed that my own govt has not been a little more public about this.
Techgnome is right about the poverty level in New Orleans and the surrounding areas. These aren't people who can just load up the car and head to NY for what is estimated to be a two month period before they can return to their homes. Watch the news footage, there are many elderly and indigent refugees.
That said, there are people who had the means to evacuate and chose to ride the storm out. You will find that in every storm. Those are the stupid people. (Granted, most of them probably didn't expect the levees to break.)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4205074.stm
My God, what the hell is going on over there . . . . :confused:
Now that is just plain stupid. Looting, and shooting at a rescue vehicle? Uh, why on earth would anyone do that; for heaven's sake, it's an emergency...Quote:
Originally Posted by yrwyddfa
Of course, we are probably only hearing about the minority cases that make it into the news. The vast majority of them are probably very cooperative, after all, it's their city that's being cleaned up; but sadly that's the way of the news that we don't get the full picture.
People are desperate. Conditions are terrible. Relief is slow in coming because of the flooding. A man climbed the Superdome rafters yesterday and jumped, commiting suicide. People are not acting in their right minds because of the devastation. Many haven't had any food or clean water since Monday. People are dying in the streets trying to evacuate. It's very, very desperate there right now.
I understand that some people could not evacuate because of their situation.....then they should have gone to the safe zones, not stayed in their little shack
There will always be people who underestimate a hurricane, they are usually the dead ones.
What's likely is the rescue helicopter picked someone up, left and some nutter with a gun didn't like the fact they were left behind and decided "If I can't have the helicopter, nobody will". But let's leave the gun laws out of this discussion shall we?
30,000 people went to the Superdome. It was considered a safe zone.
New Orleans is below sea level. There weren't many safe zones once the levees broke. That's when most of the damage occured. Flooding is 20 feet in places.
You're right about the person who shot at the helicopter. There are also a bunch of carjackings going on. People are desperate to get out. Unfortunately events such as these can bring out the worst in people. But, in many cases it can bring out the best. The doctors and nurses are not leaving the hospitals, the emergency personnel are not leaving, and rescue relief is on its way. Yesteraday, sports enthusiasts in the area were encouraged to join in the rescue if they had a boat. Hundreds turned out to join the efforts. Many rescues were made that way.
I know it was a safe zone, I was just curious why someone would prefer to stay in a small wooden shack than a huge concrete stadium.
Well I'm sure they will have a rethink on the levvies. They obviously aren't as strong as they were advertised. It's so sad at a time like this that some people still think of themselves. It is dispicable and frankly looters should be shot on sight.
You have to understand the gulf culture. Alot of these people have been riding out hurricanes Their entire lives. Considering how many we get hit by a year, that's quite a few hurricanes in a lifetime. I'm sure that's why there were still a lot of people there. Actually it was no suprised that the levee failed. Last hurricane season I saw a television show explaining the layout of the lake, levee and location/elevation of NO. They knew it was going to break and kill a bunch of people eventually but there were no funds available to fix it. Louisana and Mississippi are extremely poor states with the majority of the residents living well below poverty level.
hmm Mabe the us should have donated all of tsunami relief money to fix New Orleans and the water breaks on the Mississippi River? Selfish Americans!
I am seriously disgusted. There are people attacking rescue crews, waiting outside hospitals to loot the hospitals and rob the doctors and nurses, and shooting at helicopters and evacuation personnel.
aah now THAT deserves imprisonment for life!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Cander
It deserves me to chain them down and start sawing off body parts.
I am seriously pissed.
I hear about those things more and more the last few years, where paramedics and firemen are aproached very agressivly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cander
I've had sort of a news-blackout for a week or so due to some crazy working hours at work, just yesterday all I knew was that a hurricane had hit in some place in the US (so what else is new), then I actually watch a news report and possibly thousands have died and its chaos all around! This is disturbing!
I still think that without the US infastructure and experience (with extreme weather) it could have been far worse.
Good luck to all there.
any ideas why these crazy people attack the rescuers?
This quote on CNN really just got me about deploying the National Guard
*** is this BS? They can send troops into the most unstable region in the world but they are worried about sending in troops into New Orleans?Quote:
There are hundreds of people from the National Guard here in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. We're seeing people from all the agencies. They're waiting to deploy.
Their sense is that the condition inside New Orleans is so unstable they don't want to be sending people into harm's way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPolite
Because they've been without food or clean water since Monday in 95 degree heat. If they have shelter, they are without electricity, no air conditioning, or plumbing. The stench at the Super Dome is said to be unbearable. Dead, bloating bodies are in the water and laying around the city and helicopters have been flying by people who have been waving them down. I imagine my temper would be beyond the boiling point.
I'm not excusing the behavior, but I sure am glad it's not me.
I dunno I met this chick once at Mardi gras and...... :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cander
I think they're probably more afraid that some jackarse will start shooting at the troops and proced to get 30 people mowed down by m-16s and 50 cals.
Any way. It's the same as the Riots in LA. No one could give a sheit about Rodney King. It's just a bunch of poor, recently homeless thugs taking advantage of a little bit of anarchy.
April 26th, 1992
There was a riot on the streets
Tell me where were you?
You were sittin' home watchin' your TV
While I was participating in some anarchy
First spot we hit it was the liquor store
I finally got all that alcohol I can't afford
With red lights flashin', time to retire
And then we turned that liquor store into a structure fire
Next stop we hit, it was the music shop,
It only took one brick to make the window drop
Finally we got our own P.A.
Where do you think I got this guitar that you're hearing today?
(Cuz' as long as I'm alive, I'ma live ill B)
When we returned to the pad to unload everything
It dawned on me that I need new home furnishings
So once again we filled the van until it was full
Since that day my livin' room's been much more comfortable
Cause everybody in the hood has had it up to here
It's getting harder, and harder, and harder each and every year
Some kids went in a store with their mother
I saw her when she came out she was gettin' some Pampers
They said it was for the black man
They said it was for the mexican
But not for the white man
But if you look at the streets, it wasn't about Rodney King
It's this ****ed-up situation and these ****ed-up police
It's about comin' up and stayin' on top
And became 187 on a mother ****in' cop
It's ain't in the paper, it's on the wall
National guard
Smoke from all around
(Any unit, any unit...)
(Homicide, never doing no time)
Give me my share, my share.
Gimme my share, I want it.
Gimme my share, I need it now, I need it now.
My share.
A wicked one who doesn't wanna see me go.
Just gimme my share, I want it. Gimme my share.
But you don't want to give it to me,
you don't wanna see me go.
Gimme my share, I want it, Gimme my share.
But there is a wicked one.
(Units be advised of an attempt 211 to arrest now at 938 Temple, 9-3-8
Temple, many subjects with bats trying to get inside the CB's
house...they're trying to kill him)
Let it burn
Wanna let it burn, wanna let it burn
Wanna wanna let it burn
(I feel insane)
Riots on the streets if Miami
Whoa, riots on the streets of Chicago
On the streets of Long Beach
In San Francisco
Riots on the streets of Kansas City
Tuskaloosa, Alabama
Cleveland, Ohio
Fountainberry, Paramount, Vista Buelle
Eugene, Oregon
Eureka, California
Hesperia
Santa Barbara
mother ****in' Nevada
San Diego
Lakewood, Florida
****in' 29 Palms
(Need a unit to... structure fire and numerous subjects looting)
(10-15 to get rid of this looter)
That's Sublime right?
Anyway... its sounds more like the looters are looting food and supplies. I mean seriously, all that food would be wasted because of loss of refrigeration and the supplies would inevitably be water damaged. The store owners will have a complete loss according to the insurance companies - and these people know that.
If I was in New Orleans and my kid needed clothes... NOTHING would make me hesistate about breaking glass in some clothing store to get him clothes for the night. And nothing would stop me from getting that child fed.
Its not like people are running off with 40" plasma televisions - where the hell would you load them? There's no vehicles to load them onto either - and how would you make your way out of the city without it getting inevitably damaged by water?
Aside from that - I think they really need to consider abandoning downtown New Orleans... they state the coastal degeneration will bring the ocean straight to downtown New Orleans within this coming century. So what's the point really? To save some historic French shopping district? That would be the biggest waste of Federal money since the Iraq war.
As far as sympathies from Europe and Asia - that's all fine and good. But don't waste your time. They started some collection at my workplace - I live in Wisconsin where the only threat is tornadoes - and all I thought when they mentioned the collection was - aren't we already paying for FEMA through federal taxes? And who's going to get these 'collections'?
What I'm really peeved about is the Midwest getting slapped with higher gas prices even though very little of our gas comes from the Gulf refineries.
The price went from 2.72 a gallon to 3.40 in the course of days. Now's theres the looting!
Told you it would happen, troops have been given the order to kill looters on sight http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4207202.stm
The problem with the looters in New Orleans is that the majority are armed and very desperate. Apparently one man shot another simply to get to the food first, I would imagine that shot man is near detah due to the festering wound (from dirty water), is it still justified to clothe your child if you kill another human in the process? Of course not.
As for aid from Europe and Asia, we will of course help in any way we can, that is what allies do. However it appears George W Bush in his infinite wisdom has told us to keep out of the US's business. Charming.
As for what they need to start doing, i honestly don't know. I would have said, start evacuating people but they are hardly going to send an unarmed rescue helicopter into an area where people are shooting at it.
Oh, and as for getting peeved...of course I would be annoyed at a helicopter flying past me but that is no excuse to shoot at rescuers. They are just doing their job, and a fine one at that, and should not expect to be shot at by fools with guns
Good god! This is outrageous! No offense to the yanks on this forum, as your all top blokes :thumb: but this doesn't shine very well for the US public image. New Orleans is in the middle of its worst crisis and should be a time when people band together to get through this...instead the blokes are raping and murdering!!!!Quote:
People were raped in the Superdome. People were killed in there. We had multiple riots
It's like their back in the stone age!!
I'm sorry about this guys but it makes me furious at how disgusting some people can act at such a dreadful time
according to my beliefs:D... it's better to be killed than to kill, so no it's no okay to kill for food/clothes :)
it's very sad :(
do they really just shoot the looters btw? no warnings or anything?
I would imagine so as most of the looters themselves will be armed.
:mad:
umm are there any more vids
I dont get cable TV right now :(
this sucks aaaah
There are some video clips on the BBC News website
Associated Press videos- (Katrina videos really start on page 2)
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/files/s...T&SECTION=HOME
And, CNN has free video now, and of course, there's always FOXnews.
ABCNews has a subscription, and NBC video is rather lacking.
I think your getting caught up in media sensationalism. All it takes is one or two bad individuals to label the whole crowd as murderers and rapists - and make global headlines. You're talking about maybe 100-150 criminals running around the city terrorizing people - possibly including some escaped prisoners during the local prison evacuation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valleysboy1978
I was watching some CNN last night and some of the anchor-hosted shows were obviously flamboyant in their attitudes - one in particular - went from being very concerned to being very indifferent in a manner of a second. She obviously was posturing for ratings by playing up the situation.