Got laughed at for being a VB Programmer.

Some people are so snotty and elitist. I was hanging out with some people from another company, they were interns programming in script languages or lower level languages.

I told them I programmed in VB. They laughed at it! To them VB was like beneath them or some crap...

Well whatever, I earn double the salary as VB contractor compared to what they would earn in a full time job (if they had a full time job) programming in what they think is a superior language.

I just hate this BS elitest crap. Whatever makes money or is in demand is ok in my mind.

Its hard to say why they feel that way. Probably because they either don't know Visual Basic and feel threatened by M$ dominance or they just think Visual Basic is a beginners language and its eaiser to work with. I really don't look at the language i look at what one does with it. I used to program in Visual Basic then switched to Java.

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Some people are so snotty and elitist

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...perfectly rigth..and that is why they laught....ignore them....Seen so many ppl like that in the past few years since switching to IT....those are the ones that tumbles over when you give them some real hard core work.

I feel your pain. There are alot of people out there that don't know what they are talking about

I think the only reason for this is VB is basically an RAD tool. Even for a newbie, he can create a small app withing minutes..
A good programmer is not decided on the language he works with but the way he writes his code and the complexity involved...
I have seen my Java friends working for couple of days to small calculator which i developed in few hours just for fun.

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Originally Posted by mayurvb

A good programmer is not decided on the language he works with but the way he writes his code and the complexity involved...

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I agree... to a point. I agree with "A good programmer is not decided on the language he works with", but the rest I'm not too sure on. I think of myself as a ood programmer, but it's not on the complexity of the stuff I write. I've written some very complex stuff, but the code is like crap. On the other hand, I've written some very simple code that flowed like water in a stream.

Here's a quote I came across a long time ago, and it's just as valid now as it was then (some 15 years ago). I have no idea who said it, or I'd credit them. I've expanded on it a little

A good programmer knows everything about everything in their head and knows no limits. But the greatest of programmers, knows thier limits and know how, when and where to look things up.

I'm thinking it's time I dig up my copy of "The Tao of Programming."

Tg

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A good programmer knows everything about everything in their head and knows no limits. But the greatest of programmers, knows their limits and know how, when and where to look things up.

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No one can argue with that. My personal philosophy is to use your brain as an index to knowledge residing elsewhere.
Find the one that wrote this, I want to marry his brains.

I didnt wanted to say the comlexity of code, but the complexity of the what the code will do.
No doubt OOP's is the way to make things easier, but those can be done and implemented in VB6 as well.

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Originally Posted by mayurvb

I think the only reason for this is VB is basically an RAD tool. Even for a newbie, he can create a small app withing minutes..
A good programmer is not decided on the language he works with but the way he writes his code and the complexity involved...
I have seen my Java friends working for couple of days to small calculator which i developed in few hours just for fun.

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I'd agree with that, the RAD nature of VB does make it seem like a beginner's programming language. However that's what makes it great in my opinion, you can pick it up straight away, and then expand on your knowledge until you are using the same "beginner's" language to create powerful programs that people would think you used C++ for.

I wouldn't laugh at any one because of what language they program in, after all, the programs you produce depend on your personal ability as a programmer; not your language.

The problem with VB is that it allows people who can't write code to develop applications.

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The problem with VB is that it allows people who can't write code to develop applications

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Bullocks! That's what IDE's does, not a language. Sorry pal...come from vb6 > vb.net > c#..u got it wrong.

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Originally Posted by StrangerInBeijing

Bullocks! That's what IDE's does, not a language.

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Classic VB wasn't much worth without the IDE though...

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Originally Posted by StrangerInBeijing

Bullocks! That's what IDE's does, not a language. Sorry pal...come from vb6 > vb.net > c#..u got it wrong.

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But it's the IDE plus the Langauage that makes VB6.

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Originally Posted by capsulecorpjx

Some people are so snotty and elitist. I was hanging out with some people from another company, they were interns programming in script languages or lower level languages.

I told them I programmed in VB. They laughed at it! To them VB was like beneath them or some crap...

Well whatever, I earn double the salary as VB contractor compared to what they would earn in a full time job (if they had a full time job) programming in what they think is a superior language.

I just hate this BS elitest crap. Whatever makes money or is in demand is ok in my mind.

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It's not VB being the problem here. It's just a matter of whether you knew how to defnd yourself in that situation or not. Harsh as I may sound, you didn't defend yourself, nor did you know what to say to them...

I am always ready for when a coworker of mine (who maywork in C# or C/C++/Java) is about to start mocking VB.NET... even if I'm wrong or playing with words, the main thing is, I get them to stay quiet. :afrog:

As i always say, if the tools you use get the job done, then problem solved!

Back in the early 80's I was laughed at because I was a PC programmer. All of the mainframe boys and girls kept asking me when I was going to become a real programmer.

Some things just never change.

Back in the early 80's I was a mainframe programmer - but on Digital PDP-11 and VAX-11 computers - developing in BASIC.

We were laughed at then for coding in BASIC on the mainframe.

I also coded in FORTRAN, COBOL, DIBOL - we even developed our own 4-GL report languages.

Programming is programming - the language is not relevant.

I currently program in T-SQL in STORED PROCEDURES. Those Payroll Calculations and High School Scheduling Algorithms are now done in T-SQL. VB is only used to display and maintain the data for the user.

I'm still probably being laughed at - but I've been developing software on my own - that I have proprietary rights to - since 1986 - so they can laugh all they want ;)

Geez your old! I wasnt born until 1986!

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Originally Posted by DeadEyes

The problem with VB is that it allows people who can't write code to develop applications.

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Thats not a problem thats an side advantage. Its a good starting point for people to learn programming while getting interested. Starting out with GUI is much more fun then starting with command line "Hello World" from C++.

I think VB is good for its uses. I don't spend as much time developing the basics like forms and menus as I would need to if using another language.

Its not like I'm developing graphics software or a game here. I'm developing client side, form based apps that work with a server database.

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Originally Posted by mendhak

I am always ready for when a coworker of mine (who maywork in C# or C/C++/Java) is about to start mocking VB.NET... even if I'm wrong or playing with words, the main thing is, I get them to stay quiet. :afrog:

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Curiously, what do you usually retorts in cases as such? Could you share it so I could also have an repertoire of retorts when moments come like that?

Making those kinds of disparaging remarks about VB.NET is just silly -- especially with the upcoming Visual Studio 2005, since it has basically evolved into C# with an alternate syntax. There's a strong argument to be made that VB.NET is not even "Visual Basic" at all, in terms of the language and its heritage.

Raise your hand if you know of a hobbiest (ie: non-professional developer) using VB.NET for anything. My guess is that there won't be many hands up in the air.

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Originally Posted by dee-u

Curiously, what do you usually retorts in cases as such? Could you share it so I could also have an repertoire of retorts when moments come like that?

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A few things you could do. Ask them if they've programmed in VB.NET. Most cases, they haven't. You can tell them how do they know what they're talking about. You, OTOH, will have worked in C/C++, since that's where all of us start. Point out how you don't need to waste your time on taking care of petty issues, you have an architecture which takes care of that for you, and that you'd rather concentrate on logic instead.

Ask them if they can create a simple notepad editor in under 60 seconds. You can. They can't. ;)

Someone on VBF had a quote in their signature... it went something along the lines of: Creating enterprise level applications with C++ is like trying to hammer a rivet into a steel beam with a toothpick. Get the point? Of course you do :afrog:

I'll keep those in mind. ;)

I find that programming in VB is synonymous with playing the guitar. Almost anyway can pick up a guitar and within a few hours (minutes!) learn to play chords, and become quite an acceptable player.

The great guitarists are those that understand their trade. That trade is, of course, music. You can strum along with a few chords without knowing anything about music.

If you want to play like Satriani, Vai, or even Clapton, then you will need to learn all the theory that underpins what it is exactly you want to do.

It is the same with programming. Anyone (almost) can get going with VB(6). But to construct n-tier applications that keep a business alive, functioning, and most of all, relevant, takes years of experience and dedication.

Those who laugh are simply ignorant.

When I interview for programmers, I always ask what they think is the best language. If they say 'There isn't one', or 'Depends on the job' then they are selected (automatically) for a second interview.

If they have an answer - which the vast majority of them do - they don't get a second interview.

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Originally Posted by yrwyddfa

When I interview for programmers, I always ask what they think is the best language. If they say 'There isn't one', or 'Depends on the job' then they are selected (automatically) for a second interview.

If they have an answer - which the vast majority of them do - they don't get a second interview.

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An interesting criteria. I like it! (and, agree with it!!) :thumb:

The vast majority of programmers are conceited, and selfish. Just like me. Why do I want to work with another person just like me

I don't even like myself.

;)

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Originally Posted by Hack

An interesting criteria. I like it! (and, agree with it!!) :thumb:

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I don't think its a good question to dismiss someone on.

Its a trick question, some people might not think that "none" is a possible answer.

Really if I was hiring someone, I would ask pseudo code questions and see if they can solve it.

Or ask what languages suit what purposes.

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Originally Posted by capsulecorpjx

I don't think its a good question to dismiss someone on.

Its a trick question, some people might not think that "none" is a possible answer.

Really if I was hiring someone, I would ask pseudo code questions and see if they can solve it.

Or ask what languages suit what purposes.

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In my opinion it's not a trick question at all.

It allows you to peek into the mind of the person you are interviewing and see what they "think" a programming language is. I've hired dozens of programmers and gotten quite a few duds along the way.

Understanding how unimportant a 3rd or 4th generation language is compared to how important "programming logic concepts" are instead is a big issue - at least with me.

We've got a similar one. We don't use it to pass or fail a candidate, but we use it to guage their ability to process everyday items you don't normaly think about:
Q: Why are manhole-covers round?

There is a perfectly good reason for them to be round. It gives a little insight into how they think.

Tg

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Originally Posted by techgnome

We've got a similar one. We don't use it to pass or fail a candidate, but we use it to guage their ability to process everyday items you don't normaly think about:
Q: Why are manhole-covers round?

There is a perfectly good reason for them to be round. It gives a little insight into how they think.

Tg

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The problem with lateral thinking questions is you have to be sure the candidate has not heard the question before otherwise it reveals nothing. A better style are questions that don't have a single simple solution. Microsofts "how would you move mount Fuji?" is a classic.

This is going to to be an outburst but I gotta get my 2 cents in here, as serval people have ridiculed me for knowing/programming in VB6.

A few people have been like:
Them: "What langauge did you make that program in?"
Me: "Visual Basic 6"
Them: "Ha that programming language sucks, why don't you use a real langauge like C++?"
Me: "Well, what langauges do you know?"
Them: "None, but still Visual Basic sucks"
....

Me: "I just made a new program in VB6."
Them: "Cool what langauge?"
Me: "Visual Basic 6"
Them: "omg that langauge sucks, the executables can even be decomplied"
(Im serious, I've meet someone that thought a VB6 complied program can be decomplied back the original code and everything. Not only that, he clamied to be a leet hacker. Ill reserve my judgement.)

-sigh- If they only knew the real abilites of VB. Or had another brain cell...

IMHO, VB6 is the best langauge to do most windows based programs in (note how I said it wasn't the best langauge, just the best language to do windows programs in) becuse in a few lines of code you can do the same exact thing in C++ in like 30-40 lines. Because in C++ you have to declare everything left and right.

Im going to take a quote my friend said and apply it to VB6:

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Programming in VB6 is like making toast, you push the button and boom its done.

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For any fellow VB6 programmers out there, if someone says VB6 is a stupid langauge (and X langauge is better) do what was mentined eariler, changelle them and when you've made your whatever program complete with GUI before them. Just remind that person who the better programmer is :D .

[rant][/rant] There I'm done. ;)

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Originally Posted by DeadEyes

The problem with lateral thinking questions is you have to be sure the candidate has not heard the question before otherwise it reveals nothing. A better style are questions that don't have a single simple solution. Microsofts "how would you move mount Fuji?" is a classic.

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Guess I won't ever work at Microsoft.

I still don't like these questions. If you want to test IQ use IQ questions that uses Math and logic.

But then again, these questions are valid in that they test "outside the box" thinking.

Generally, I don't like trick questions, in that the question seems deceptive. Also the question can seem vague, especially in the context that its a ludicrous question.
Here are some questions I would ask the interviewer:

1) How far to move the mountain? Do I have to move it over the ocean?
2) Does Mount Fuji have to be intact?
3) What frame of reference are we talking about (if its the universe, then Fuji is already moving around the sun).
4) Do we need to consult with the Japanese Government for a permit? Is red tape involved?
5) Is Mount Fuji literally the mountain or can I make a mole hill and call it Mount Fuji and move it?
6) Whats the time limit on the move?
7) Am I too assume I have unlimited budget and can use all available tools?

But let me give it a shot:
Lets assume we're moving THE Mount Fuji 5 miles over land, intact:

I would have scientists develop mono-molecular wire, run it over the base of the mountain to cut the mountain. Then import and hire a hundred million peasants to push the mountain for as long as it takes to move it 5 miles.

For the Manhole cover question:
1) Round manholes cannot fall into the manhole if you turn it on the side. You can have a square do this as well, but the amount of space between the outer edge of the manhole and the actual hole have to be huge.
2) Round manholes take the least surface area of any shape, so its cheaper to make.

Pfft! Too hard..... I'd subclass the mountain object, give it the same property setting, except changing the lat & lon co-ordinates to the new location. There. Easy, simple, and to the point. Unless it's Mt Fuji.NET... in which case I'd also anrchor it left and right, and jsut for kicks, set the docking to "fill".

Tg

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Originally Posted by capsulecorpjx

I still don't like these questions. If you want to test IQ use IQ questions that uses Math and logic.

But then again, these questions are valid in that they test "outside the box" thinking.

Generally, I don't like trick questions, in that the question seems deceptive. Also the question can seem vague, especially in the context that its a ludicrous question.

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Trick questions on interviews should be expected and the ability to bat them around is the whole point.

When I used to give programming tests to potential programmers I would get results from them that had absolutely nothing to do with the skill (logic solving ability) of the programmer.

I would rather have an open minded, easy to direct person working for me - then one that thinks they have all the answers.

I've had many non-team players - veritable know-it-alls - that kill the whole teams progress.

Asking what language suits what purposes potentially shows you the experience of the person - maybe validating the partially true resume. But that certainly doesn't give you an idea if they can build logic well - independently.

I have a huge problem with having to explain so much of what I want done, that I mine as well do it myself - that's frustrating.

That's my two-cents :)

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Originally Posted by szlamany

Trick questions on interviews should be expected and the ability to bat them around is the whole point.

When I used to give programming tests to potential programmers I would get results from them that had absolutely nothing to do with the skill (logic solving ability) of the programmer.

I would rather have an open minded, easy to direct person working for me - then one that thinks they have all the answers.

I've had many non-team players - veritable know-it-alls - that kill the whole teams progress.

Asking what language suits what purposes potentially shows you the experience of the person - maybe validating the partially true resume. But that certainly doesn't give you an idea if they can build logic well - independently.

I have a huge problem with having to explain so much of what I want done, that I mine as well do it myself - that's frustrating.

That's my two-cents :)

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When I hold interviews my attitude is that all programmers are born equal. Regardless of experience, or skillset, I always look at the person.

Programming, inherently, is a very difficult task. M$ (and others) change what it is you need to know every few years. If you employ someone for their skillset you are potentially only employing them until that skillset dies (typically 6/7 years) Their skillset, for me, gets 'em initially through the door for interview.

If you want a team member then you go for the person, and generally ignore his CV (his CV got him through the door, and that's about it)

The caveat being that here he would need 'some' experience in n-tier VB6/COM+/SQL2k but then that would've been on his CV anyway.

I could put that I know C/C++ on my CV, and it might get me a first interview.... but I had better get weeded out in that first round. yrwyddfa, it sounds like I'd get past that first round of yours. Not so good.

We use that first interview to do a number of things. 1) Assess the person in gerneral. 2) Do they have the skill set we are looking for (this is something our HR dept has problems with) 3) Will they fit in here? This is more than just determining if they are a team-player or not. Our organization is _very_ flat, and while we have teams, we also have a lot of cases where the developer needs to have the ability to work alone, w/o supervision. So we have to find the right person with the right balance between the two. 4) Because of the flatness, there's no opportunity for coprorate ladder climbing. We've been through a couple of people who had problems with this issue and it created a lot of annimosity between them and the rest of the group.

Also if you are employing someone only untill that skillset dies... then you are doing them and yourself a great disservice, and I'd be out of a job in a few months. The ability (and willingness) to expand their skillset is a great asset. You can employ the typical C/C++ cermugeon who refuses to learn anything new, produces quality code punches in at 8am and leaves prompty at 5pm, but also gets the job done in a timely fassion. This person works well with the team as well as on his own. Or you can get some one who has some experience with C/C++, VB, does some SQL and wants to take up .NET. The quality of code is slightly below the cermugeon's, but is able to get it done, and works well with others.

Here, we're more likely to take that second person than the first. Mainly because it shows the willingness & ability to shift from one thing to another.

And generaly CVs are inflated at least 10%.

Tg

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Originally Posted by techgnome

I could put that I know C/C++ on my CV, and it might get me a first interview.... but I had better get weeded out in that first round. yrwyddfa, it sounds like I'd get past that first round of yours. Not so good.

We use that first interview to do a number of things. 1) Assess the person in gerneral. 2) Do they have the skill set we are looking for (this is something our HR dept has problems with) 3) Will they fit in here? This is more than just determining if they are a team-player or not. Our organization is _very_ flat, and while we have teams, we also have a lot of cases where the developer needs to have the ability to work alone, w/o supervision. So we have to find the right person with the right balance between the two. 4) Because of the flatness, there's no opportunity for coprorate ladder climbing. We've been through a couple of people who had problems with this issue and it created a lot of annimosity between them and the rest of the group.

Also if you are employing someone only untill that skillset dies... then you are doing them and yourself a great disservice, and I'd be out of a job in a few months. The ability (and willingness) to expand their skillset is a great asset. You can employ the typical C/C++ cermugeon who refuses to learn anything new, produces quality code punches in at 8am and leaves prompty at 5pm, but also gets the job done in a timely fassion. This person works well with the team as well as on his own. Or you can get some one who has some experience with C/C++, VB, does some SQL and wants to take up .NET. The quality of code is slightly below the cermugeon's, but is able to get it done, and works well with others.

Here, we're more likely to take that second person than the first. Mainly because it shows the willingness & ability to shift from one thing to another.

And generaly CVs are inflated at least 10%.

Tg

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I think you should reread my last post.

IMO..

if you work from buttom up..... c++ > java > VB.net

then u won't be "offended" by those people.........cos' u know exactly what's going on......and how to implement stuffs you know already in VB.......

it's like heaven on earth, buddy

You missed out assembly programming, and computer systems architecture, and processor design, buddy :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by yrwyddfa

I think you should reread my last post.

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Okay, it's going to be like that is it?

Let me see if I can break it down... we may simply be missing each other's point.

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Originally Posted by yrwyddfa

When I hold interviews my attitude is that all programmers are born equal. Regardless of experience, or skillset, I always look at the person.

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I think we both agree that you have to do this... personality certanly plays a part. But even if you have a sparkling personality, it won't matter if you can't get the job done.

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Originally Posted by yrwyddfa

Programming, inherently, is a very difficult task. M$ (and others) change what it is you need to know every few years. If you employ someone for their skillset you are potentially only employing them until that skillset dies (typically 6/7 years) Their skillset, for me, gets 'em initially through the door for interview.

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The problem I had with this was "If you employ someone for their skillset you are potentially only employing them until that skillset dies" But hopefully that skill set will show if they have the capacity to change with the times, or if they are going to be a stick in the mud. If we have the choice between a hot-shot Vb6er or some one who knows both VB6 and C++ very well, we're more likely to look at the dual language person.

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Originally Posted by yrwyddfa

If you want a team member then you go for the person, and generally ignore his CV (his CV got him through the door, and that's about it)

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But you can't ignore the CV all together. We are constantly battling HR in this area (although they are getting better). True, the CV doesn't show if the person is a team player or not - but in some cases it may be an indicator of a potential problem (4 jobs in the last 2 years?).

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Originally Posted by yrwyddfa

The caveat being that here he would need 'some' experience in n-tier VB6/COM+/SQL2k but then that would've been on his CV anyway.

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But what is that experience? That's kinda where I was going with my last post... generaly what's on a CV is inflated anyhow, and you _*have*_ to somehow weed out those that aren't going to cut it. So how do you do it?

Tg

Nah. I wasn't being like that. I think we agree on most areas. The vast majority of CV's are inflated well beyond 10%. I think they're worthless.

At least if someone's managed to look at the job description, and then copy it's requirements on a CV then I'll get em in for the first interview.

That's when the "fun" starts.

Actually it's not fun at all. I find it the most distressing experience. I hate every aspect of it.

Are we all saying the same thing? I'm having a hard time reading between the lines on this one...

I whole heartedly agree that a skill-set is a meaningless attribute - when compared to the ability itself - learning new skills is what it's all about. In the past 5 years my shop has become a T-SQL STORED PROCEDURE shop - the VB coding has nearly ceased! When I hired for this large project, I wanted SQL ability - but certainly didn't expect the huge swing into the T-SQL world that we are in now...

All programmers are not born equal - I can not agree to that point, though. Thinking outside the box - seeing logic in your mind - that's a talent that is rare in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by szlamany

Are we all saying the same thing? I'm having a hard time reading between the lines on this one...

I whole heartedly agree that a skill-set is a meaningless attribute - when compared to the ability itself - learning new skills is what it's all about. In the past 5 years my shop has become a T-SQL STORED PROCEDURE shop - the VB coding has nearly ceased! When I hired for this large project, I wanted SQL ability - but certainly didn't expect the huge swing into the T-SQL world that we are in now...

All programmers are not born equal - I can not agree to that point, though. Thinking outside the box - seeing logic in your mind - that's a talent that is rare in my opinion.

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Yeah. But I can't help but think about boxes . . .

I think we are.... it's what we would call around here "Six of one, half-dozen of another".

I've come to the following conclusions:
1) You have to look at the total package as a whole. Parts is parts, but sometimes the sum of the parts still doesn't equal the whole.
2) Every shop is different. Our style of hiring here would sink most IT depts at Fortune 500 companies. While their style would sink ours.
3) Thinking outside the box, but it depends on a couple of factors: a) How big was that box? b) Whose box is it? and c) How far outside the box was it?
4) yrwyddfa likes boxes
5) yrwyddfa needs a new username, one that's more nemonic, easier to type and remember.

:D

Tg

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Originally Posted by techgnome

a) How big was that box? b) Whose box is it? and c) How far outside the box was it?

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A box, in England, is sometimes slang for female genitalia. I thought I should mention it before we go too far down that line. :)

Not that I'm against going down (that line) but the mods might not like it.

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Originally Posted by techgnome

5) yrwyddfa needs a new username, one that's more nemonic, easier to type and remember.

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How can you ever forget me? :cry:

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Originally Posted by DeadEyes

The problem with lateral thinking questions is you have to be sure the candidate has not heard the question before otherwise it reveals nothing. A better style are questions that don't have a single simple solution. Microsofts "how would you move mount Fuji?" is a classic.

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So what is the real answer? I posted my answer (more of a joke) in one of my replies.

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Originally Posted by yrwyddfa

A box, in England, is sometimes slang for female genitalia. I thought I should mention it before we go too far down that line. :)

Not that I'm against going down (that line) but the mods might not like it.

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Same here in the US.... and I was even thinking about it as I was typing it in.... just didn't care.

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Originally Posted by yrwyddfa

How can you ever forget me? :cry:

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It's not that I forget you.... I forget the spelling.

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Originally Posted by capsulecorpjx

So what is the real answer? I posted my answer (more of a joke) in one of my replies.

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As far as I know, there isn't a"real" answer. It's purely a mechanism for testing one's ability to rationalize an answer. It's also a test of creativity. Setting aside reality for a moment, there are a number of ways you can move Mt. Fuji. It could be one teaspoon at a time. While it will get the job done (eventualy) it will take quite some time. You could try pushing or pulling it. Or you reject all reality and sustitute your own. There were a couple of those in this thread, including yours and mine.

Which is better? Shrug. Yours sounds more like an engineer's response, while I think mine sounds more like a developer's response. You questions though in responce to the problem sound more like something an Analyst would ask (gather requirements and all that).

I think it's a creativity test rather than an ability or personality test.

Tg