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So, any change of mind after the latest school shootings? Or is it just going to be treated as "yet another accident"?
If ordinary citizens find it necessary to carry firearms for "self-defense", I can only say the state of law and order in the US is absolutely horrible.
But then, that's my personal view ;)
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It is illegal to carry a weapon in all but a few of the states, so I don't think most people think that everyone in the US is armed. The big thing is that if a burglar breaks into your house, he doesn't know if you have a weapon, but both he and yourself know that you have the right to shoot him if you find him in your house.
Keeps the peace, to some extent.
It is of course still legal to bear arms but I believe that it's not legal to arm bears. ;)
On more restrained note I think that the following logic applies
(i) Guns are available
(ii) Some people will have guns
(iii) Some people are mad
(iv) Some people who are mad will have guns
(v) Unhappy consequences such as reported today
I can't see how you can make guns unavailable through legislation. Americans (as far as I know) enjoy their right to bear arms.
Perhaps some form of stricter licensing is required.
I dont think theres that many americans who walk the streets armed with guns, this was a mass murder. Im sure in Perfectville where you come from things like this dont happen, but in the real world people do some stupid crazy thingsQuote:
Originally Posted by honeybee
they even require trigger locks to prevent tragedy in the home.
:eek2:Quote:
Originally Posted by dglienna
I can't see how that would "keep the peace", only encourage a burglar to shoot you before robbing you.
I think I'd rather he take my stuff than take my life, given the choice. Considering most other western countries have a ban on firearms they are doing well enough, and it's only in the US that these school shootings seem to occur.
No, I still think its a shame they cancelled "Friends"Quote:
Originally Posted by honeybee
Surely even you can see this kid {the bad guy, law breaker, grandparent executioner} is the reason why some {the good guys} would want to carry guns for protection.Quote:
Or is it just going to be treated as "yet another accident"?
If ordinary citizens find it necessary to carry firearms for "self-defense",
Hmmm, lets see...the original show, Special Victims Unit, Criminal Intent, Trial By Jury, ... Yep! I agree!Quote:
I can only say the state of law and order in the US is absolutely horrible.
We need More Law and Order!
...Or more CSI.
...Or another Monk or two...
Thats ok, I forgive you.Quote:
But then, that's my personal view ;)
:wave:
Damned Native Americans, I blame all the firewater. :mad:
We had a stabbing in a school here in the UK. Kids can get weapons its just a matter of how nuts they are. :cry:
One time this kid sent a Komodo Dragon after another guy and it knocked him down and tore his face off. True story.
:eek2:
if you search for "Jeff Weise" on google (the killer) you'll see he posted on nazi forums.
School shootings happen everywhere, and it has no correlation with how strict gun laws are -
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1953425.stm
Umm there are probably loads of people by the same name :afrog:
Of course it correlates to how strict gun laws are. The more lax, the easier it is to get a gun!?!
Bod I definitely agree that if a kid is nuts he will harm people, but you have to admit there's a difference between some kid brandishing a knife and an AK-47
I am not saying guns should be legal but spotting potential child psychos is more important than trying to ban what is probably millions of guns. Its all about practicallity :)
Erm. He was an American Indian, not an ordinary citizen. US government laws are generally not enforced on reservations. Bottom line if a Native wants a gun, he can pretty much have one regardless of the law.Quote:
Originally Posted by honeybee
There is a problem with outlawing guns specific to the US. There are so many weapons available on the black market, If you outlaw the sale of legal firearms only criminals will have guns. I don't bash that craphole of a country you live in. Don't bash the craphole of a country I live in.
Just something interesting I found...Quote:
Originally Posted by Valleysboy1978
"The 2000 International Crime Victimization Survey, the last survey done, shows the violent-crime rate in England and Wales was twice the rate in the U.S. When the new survey for 2004 comes out, that gap will undoubtedly have widened even further as crimes reported to British police have since soared by 35%, while declining 6% in the U.S."
Looks like "well enough" is not exactly cutting it.
X
Thats probably only during Football season.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xanith
Most burglars are just trying to come up with some cash for their latest "fix", and, thus, are unlikely to be armed. they usually prefer when their victims aren't home.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valleysboy1978
True, but are you willing to bet your life on that? Personally I'd rather pump a few slugs in him first and then hear his sad story about why he was cleaning out my house.Quote:
Originally Posted by dglienna
If he was still alive :)
Absolutly, Aim for the kneecaps and we all come out winners. I don't get robbed or hurt and the Junkie would be robber get's his fix of pain medication from the local Jail's medical staff ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by dglienna
and you brought that up, WHY ?
Please have the common sense and maturity to remove that link - before some young innocent travels into it.Quote:
Originally Posted by kulrom
Please!
Violent crime is rising in the UK. I dont think its because citizens cant be armed its because the Police cant. Why would a criminal with a gun fear and officer with their pepper spray. They dont need guns on patrol but they should if called out to an incident :)
Besides, violent crime includes a punch-up. I would hardly consider a punch-up and a shooting level in terms of violence :ehh:
Um knife crime and Gun crime is on the increase in the UK and its going up fast :eek:
Because they are not punished hard enough.
I feel sorry for the police. My uncle is in the metropolitan police and he often arrests someone for assault and they are free to go before he even finishes the paper-work!! :mad:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterBlaster
MB, I assume you are aware that if you shoot somebody, you had best make sure they are dead. Anybody in law enforcement will confirm that you face much greater legal troubles if you just wound somebody in self-defence. If you are going to shoot them, make sure they are dead.
And the problem with that is most people couldn't shot a hand gun if their lives depended on it. That short barrel - without any real training - probably shoot yourself in the foot!Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
At which point the perp hits you over the head and steals your gun as well - more crack for the evening...
Actually in this state if you shoot first and kill your getting Manslaughter. I guess they want to make it sporting and give the burgular a crack at you firstQuote:
MB, I assume you are aware that if you shoot somebody, you had best make sure they are dead. Anybody in law enforcement will confirm that you face much greater legal troubles if you just wound somebody in self-defence. If you are going to shoot them, make sure they are dead.
:confused:
Dude do not use a hand gun as protection in your house. Bullets go through walls bounce around and may come back and hit you or your kids or wife or whatever. It may even hit your computer and that is unacceptable. Use a short barrel shot gun w/pistolgrip and loaded with rock salt or Pepper Pellets.Quote:
Originally Posted by szlamany
Personally, I do not do guns - a gun in your house gets your kids friend shot by accident - all too often...Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterBlaster
The latest one around here was some grandpa dies - no one knows he has a loaded gun in the bedroom and some 12 year old shoots his friend.
That sucks too much.
trigger locks are free. In defense of the grandfather He probably didn't realize that 90% of the people in this country born after 1945 are morons and need a warning label on their cup of Starbucks coffee to know it's hot.
I have heard a study showing that households that have guns have an increased chance of a member dying of a gunshot wound.
Now, there are several possible reasons for that, and the study was not looking at any reason in particular, they were simply measuring that statistic.
One possibility is that people in areas where gun violence is common, are more likely to be armed themselves. In which case, they are more likely to be shot, and their having a gun is incidental to their elevated chance of being shot.
Another possibility is that having a gun in the house should vastly increase the odds of non-crime related shooting. Basically, you can't accidentally shoot yourself if you don't have a gun (though I have heard of a case where a guy managed to kill himself while bow fishing, which is REALLY hard to do). Since you must have a gun to accidentally shoot yourself or somebody else with one, then households with guns would be the only households where such accidents are possible.
A third possibility, and one that people don't like to confront much, is that any kind of violence can become more deadly more rapidly if a gun is involved. It doesn't take a criminal bent on a crime, it just takes domestic violence, a more spontaneous and intractable problem.
I know what you mean. I've been hiding the keys to my gun safe from my wife for years. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
LMAOQuote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
A few months/years back there had been a similar debate here, and somebody had suggested that when a majority of the people are not armed, the thieves and criminals would also tend to carry either no arms or relatively less fatal ones like knives. Personally if you want to let people own guns, you are just setting up incidents such as the school shootings to happen. Yes, you need to weed out the lunatics, but I guess it's far more sensible to ensure that even an occasional lunatic can't shoot a bunch of kids first, before setting out to spot him.
Interestingly, I don't hear anyone make the same argument against burglaries and other gun-crimes: "We should spot the criminals first, instead of worrying about if they can carry guns or not".
It's obvious that identifying a lunatic in a crowd is much more difficult than identifying a gunman in a crowd. Or maybe the sense of self- prevails all other senses?
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Self preservation, perhaps.Quote:
Originally Posted by honeybee
Of course the statistics will say it's unsafe to have a gun in your home, that only makes sense. A home with a gun is more likely to have some sort of gun related incident than a home without. Um, duh? And a home with electricity is more likely to have an electrical fire than a home without electricity.
This kind of debate is, in general, pointless. There are a multitude of pro's, and a multitude of con's. Bottom line, for me anyway, my constitution says it's my right to own a gun, so I do. The last thing I'd want to do is spend a few days cleaning some scumbags blood and guts off my floor, but I'd certainly do it if it came to that.
Many people ask me if I carry a gun when I wander off into the woods for weeks at a time. I don't. They weigh too much, and aren't useful enough. I weighed the cost/benefits, and came to this conclusion. The problem is this: there are situations where a gun is the only suitable tool. However, the situation has to be just right. In the woods, you MUST have sufficient time to react, because even with a gun you are less well armed than most of the things that might attack you. In a domestic setting, that may not be the case. If your assailant is less well armed than you, you have a chance even if you are surprised.
If you work through the scenarios, you need more than a gun to win in a domestic incident (burglary or what not), you also need a certain amount of luck. However, the costs of having a gun in the house are more nebulous. For me, the cost of a gun is serious due to the weight. There is no weight issue in a house, the question comes down to maximizing the utility of the gun while minimizing the incidental risk.
In any case, there is a calculation, and you had best make it.
A small lightweight pistol are usefull in the outdoors as noisemakers. A couple shots in the air will usually freeze or scare away an attaking critter like mountain lions, raccoons(yes they do attack) or coyotes and the like. Unfortunatly most attacks are from Bears(if you go near their cubs) Snakes and spiders in which case your gun will com in handy as a self execution device to avoid a painfull death. LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaska Department of Fish and Game
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
You know Shaggy has bells on his outfit
:bigyello:
And I'm sure he keeps his eyes out for fresh signs of bear activity. You know, a pile of cigarette butts and a couple empty Strohs cans smashed up by a tree.
It's very convenient for the sake of argument to compare electricity with guns. The only thing you forget is the electricity that is probably more lethal than a gun is heavily shielded from a human being. You have well insulated wiring with fuses and whatnots to protect your home from any foreseen electrical mishaps. You don't have a comparable safety for a gun. For the logical reason that if you make the gun difficult to reach, you wouldn't have any use for it because when you need it you wouldn't be able to reach it soon enough. So if you protect the gun, you are in trouble. If you don't protect it you are in trouble. Not the same with electricity (unless of course you have naked wires running all over your home, connected directly to the main power lines.Quote:
Originally Posted by demotivater
Hell the electrical company could be held responsible for any mishaps occuring because of a fault on their part, but the gun manufacturers don't want to hear any of it. They don't even want to ensure their guns would only land with genuine customers i.e. "peace-loving citizens" and not lunatics and criminals. Why would anyone need an automatic weapon to "defend" himself, after all? If that's really the case, that people need automatics to defend themselves, or go hunting with an AK 47 or the like, I think America has turned into a jungle, with the law of the jungle prevailing.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nemaroller
Haven't heard of any school shootings (specially by students) in our country. And here we have two separate categories even in the police department: armed and unarmed.
Just to clear up any confusion:
In all the four incidents from the USA, mentioned in that reoprt, it's the students who have killed others. A parellel can only be found in the incidents reported from Germany, where again I guess half the shooters are "former" pupils.
School shootings happen "everywhere"? I guess the world is much much bigger than Scotland, Yemen, USA and Germany put together :rolleyes:
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Considering that I have weighed my spoons, I suspect that your idea of lightweight, and mine are different. Frankly, a couple firecrackers are of greater value than a small pistol in the woods.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterBlaster
As for raccoons, I actually got in a fight with one over a table in an Everglades restraunt. The raccoon hopped up into the chair next to me, and started stealing things off the table. I whacked it with the centerpiece, and the fight was on.
The odd thing about it was that, while there were plenty of other people in the restraunt, nobody appeared to find it at all unusual that I was having a tug-of-war with a raccoon over the centerpiece. Nobody took any notice. Those darn 'coons are strong, too. Should have hit him with the grated pepper.
I think the greatest threat in this state is probably mountain lions, rather than bears.....no wait, I forgot about Idabillies! They are the most dangerous.
Replace electricity with matches. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by honeybee
I wasn't actually comparing electricity to firearms, just pointing out the silliness of the "more likely" arguement.
You're generalizing to much. From what you said, if there's a gun in the house, you're in trouble, period. That's rediculous and just plain not true.
And when you live in this country, then your opinions about it might carry some weight.
Yeah, that's a good point, me not being American would probably not understand some of the intricacies. However the generalization still holds.Quote:
Originally Posted by demotivater
And the killer had a 14-year old girlfriend who's carrying his baby???? Pregnant at 14???
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Hey, they can get pregnant even younger!Quote:
Originally Posted by honeybee
I knew one who ended up pregnant by 13.
You got to get started early if you really want to be on welfare.
My favorite is the high schools with day care for students babies. I guess they serve a good purpose, just to bad they're even needed.
That isn't really true at all. In most states you can apply for a consealed carry permit, which allows you to carry your gun legally in most places. As long as you haven't committed any major crimes, it is relatively easy to get one of those permits in most states. If you take a hand gun class you can apply for a Non-Resident Flordia permit which allows you to carry your firearm in about 34 states.Quote:
Originally Posted by dglienna
I've never heard that, and I have never seen anyone with a weapon on them out in the open (non-concealed) except for police officials. Concealed is another thing altogether, and most of those were illicit, at least in my state.
I think if I had been carrying a gun, that I would have shot someone by now, so it's better off that I haven't. Lots of people are getting shot over traffic disputes. Glad it never happened to me.
I never thought about this angle:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4386653.stm
But then since he didn't make any statement till it was too late, this angle could actually be true.
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Point to note - someone mentioned they happen only in the US. Perhaps you'd be more satisfied with 'school shootings CAN happen anywhere'. How about kniving rampages?Quote:
Originally Posted by honeybee
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/1376982.stm
I suggest you stop arming bears :eek:
I'm sure the schools in India are perfectly safe, well, unless it's a Christian school eh, honeybee?
Imagine if you armed 'Bees ?
Bees are already armed well enough for my comfort.
To counter such stupid arguments, I can only say that school shootings don't seem to happen in countless other countries where carrying a gun is ordinarily not allowed.Quote:
Originally Posted by nemaroller
So now you want to equate knives with guns? Nice try. :rolleyes: I shall wait till you get to the level of equating guns with a fistfight before I can even think of responding to that argument.
Jeez, it sure looks as if individual opinion counts more than the general welfare....
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