Poll to prove a point to About A Girl

I know that About A Girl and I have our political differences, but she is still convinced that people actually sent their kids to war.

Before I go on, I would like to state that these are facts I'm gonna point out, not opinions. Plus it's common sense to recognize these as facts anyways. First of all, these soldiers are not kids. They are legal adults. As in 18 or over. Secondly, they have volunteered to join the military of their own free will. They knew what they were getting into. And they did it because they are proud to serve and fight for our country. God bless our brave men and women in the military who would die to protect the United States of America.

So all you Michael Moore fans need to open your eyes and realize that in that scene on Farehnheit 911 where Michael Moore is asking all the Senators if they would send their kids to war is pointless cause of the facts I just stated above.

Michael Moore started on the right track when i saw him on an ifc doc some time ago. Going into large corps uninvited and asking questions such as "Your company made 2 billion last year. So why then did you lay off 10,000 employees?" was in my opinion the right track. Why he decided to change directions i don't know but i think it has somthing to do with money and that he knew he could get more people behind him if he made it poltical. Of course there is a link between Grorge W Bush and corporations but Michael Moore failed to tackle issues that relate to goverment and companies like when companies donate large quantities of money to people running for office.

Are we talking full on military, or reserves? I think you;ll find that most reservists joined up for the tuition assistance, and didn't think it was possible that some dummy would cause them to be shipped over to Iraq.

Ever heard anyone say "Get out or Join Up?" Even the judge says "Join up or serve time." May not be much of a choice, but it still is a choice.

There was no draft. ;)

So nobody got forced into joining.

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Posted by crptcblade

Are we talking full on military, or reserves? I think you;ll find that most reservists joined up for the tuition assistance, and didn't think it was possible that some dummy would cause them to be shipped over to Iraq.

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Then that's just ignorance on their part. You join up knowing full well that if the crap hits the fan your the next in line to go.

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Originally Posted by Dilenger4

Then that's just ignorance on their part.

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I never said they weren't stupid. ;)

I think duration of time is more of an issue. For instance some people were told that they were going to have to be over in Iraq for 6 months then it's change to 12 months then 15 months.

When it comes to war, there is no such thing as a time duration or a deadline. You do what you got to do to win the battle.

Yes i agree. I was just saying that would be more of an issue.

What would you say then for the kids that are brought up and there parents drill into there heads how militry is the way to go? Just like how some parents keep telling there kids that they have to goto uni have school. They have a choice but will end up upsetting there parents so its based on how much they will go to keep the family happy. And for richer people their parents have the threat of cutting them off if they don't choose the familys route.
I would call that being forced into such a career path or educational path.

lots of kids join to get money to GO to school when they get out.

A lot of them join to earn money for uni, or simply because they can't get jobs elsewhere.

Calling that "free will" is entirely subjective. You can be technically correct in saying that they are joining of their own free will, but if we get down to practicality, you'd be incorrect. :)

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Originally Posted by mendhak

A lot of them join to earn money for uni, or simply because they can't get jobs elsewhere.

Calling that "free will" is entirely subjective. You can be technically correct in saying that they are joining of their own free will, but if we get down to practicality, you'd be incorrect. :)

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:confused:

Sorry. I tend to overanalyze things.

There are plenty of other jobs they can do for money. They may be boring but they are safer than the military. All military personnel make there own decision to join and we should support them as best we can when they need our help. Wether its moral or physical help. To say others made them join takes away the pride they probably feel for their choice. Any job where you put your life on the line for others is a job where you should be immensley(sp) proud even if you never enter into a dangerous situation you are willing too.

Hmm ran off there didnt I? :eek:

I don't want to sound heartless because I respect these guys for what they are doing in Iraq, I know I couldn't do it. However, these are adults who have CHOSEN, whatever their personal reasons, to join the armed forces. If it is for education, money, enjoyment, satisfaction does not matter, they chose this career path. The fact that they thought all they would need to do is train train train is their own fault. If you are in the armed forces you should know that you will be called into action if need be....it is the job they chose!
:rolleyes:

Who gives a toss? As long as our underage soldiers kill more of their underage soldiers then we are in the clear.

Plus they are the Halo generation, they must be pwning baddies all over the place.

:D

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Originally Posted by Valleysboy1978

I don't want to sound heartless because I respect these guys for what they are doing in Iraq, I know I couldn't do it. However, these are adults who have CHOSEN, whatever their personal reasons, to join the armed forces. If it is for education, money, enjoyment, satisfaction does not matter, they chose this career path. The fact that they thought all they would need to do is train train train is their own fault. If you are in the armed forces you should know that you will be called into action if need be....it is the job they chose!
:rolleyes:

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Do you, then, have respect for the Iraqi insurgents or young jihad-soldiers?

they are following orders, which is required to do their jobs. I joined when we were at peace, and in 1980, there were hostages at the olympics. after a few weeks at basic training, we all were in a meeting, and they announced that the hostages had been killed, and that we all would be shipping out PDQ.

I didn't believe it, but almost half of the 1200 people were hysterical! After about 15 minutes, they told us that it wasn't true, but COULD HAVE BEEN. At that moment, I wondered if it was all a mistake, but I finished my tour without having to do anything that I didn't sign up for. I did leave without re-enlisting, though. Plus, I had my job, so that if I were called back, I would have the job already. Then I got too old, so now I'm not concerned.

I thought that everyone would benefit from two years of service, but now, I'm not too sure. May not hurt, though.

Forcing people into the military is wrong. I would fight for a war a genuinly beleive in but never fight a war if I thought it was wrong or overreacting :)

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Originally Posted by mendhak

Do you, then, have respect for the Iraqi insurgents or young jihad-soldiers?

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Definitely not. Those idiots kill their own people, men, women and children. Men like that should be left to rot in the desert :mad:

If you don't mind how about throwning girl/women joing the armed forces into the discussion. I had a friend which I knew quite well when I was younger and she choose to join the amry, since she'd been in there awhile when I see her now its hard to talk to her. Her wole attitude has changed from being in the army and not for the better, I can see this probably isn't just a thing for females but I was seriously shocked at how much it can chnage a person.


P.S. How come this is world events now?

This thread is moving around so much I'm getting dizzy! :rolleyes:
Yeah, I've got a mate in the R.A.F. and he has turned into a real w****r now. I find they get more arrogant

I joined the military in March 1990, at age 20.
I did it to take advantage of the G.I. Bill, which helps with paying for college.
In August 1991, my unit was activated to go to Saudi for Desert Storm (the first Gulf War, for you youngin's)
Our initial tour of duty was to be for 6 months, I ended up having to stay 9 months.

At that time there was a maximum of 1 year for a tour of duty, they have since raised it to 2 years.

It ruins moral when the soldiers think they'll be leaving and then they are told they have to stay another x amount of months.
It's better to tell them "Your tour of duty may last upto 2 years".
This way there isn't any expectations, they just know they'll be there for 2 years or until they're told to leave, which ever comes first.

I have never heard of anyone being forced to join the military (this excludes the 60's draft), either by their parents or a judge, etc...

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Originally Posted by Electroman

What would you say then for the kids that are brought up and there parents drill into there heads how militry is the way to go? Just like how some parents keep telling there kids that they have to goto uni have school. They have a choice but will end up upsetting there parents so its based on how much they will go to keep the family happy. And for richer people their parents have the threat of cutting them off if they don't choose the familys route.
I would call that being forced into such a career path or educational path.

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This is still a choice, not an easy one obviously, but still a choice.

Choose to follow your own path, or the path your family wants you to take.

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Originally Posted by Electroman

If you don't mind how about throwning girl/women joing the armed forces into the discussion. I had a friend which I knew quite well when I was younger and she choose to join the amry, since she'd been in there awhile when I see her now its hard to talk to her. Her wole attitude has changed from being in the army and not for the better, I can see this probably isn't just a thing for females but I was seriously shocked at how much it can chnage a person.


P.S. How come this is world events now?

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It can definitely change you, both for the better (being more disciplined, etc..) and for the worse (overly aggressive).

It's a maturing experience. I've seen things I wish I'd never seen. I've done things I wish I'd never done. All your past experiences mold you into the person you are right now. And all future experiences will continue to mold you into the person you will become.

Some are bad, some are good. It's learning and knowing how to cope with the bad things that is important.

Some friends of mine just love watching the beheading videos and stuff like that...I can't watch it...It makes me sick to my stomach. It reminds me of the things I would like to try and forget.

Growing up, I had only been in one real fight and that was in high school and it only lasted one punch. I got punched and then I tackled him. Then it was broken up.
When I joined the military, the testosterone is overwhelming...Everyone thinks their the top dog, some can back it up, some can't. So there's alot of fighting. I fought alot in the military (more than I would like to admit, me and a couple of other guys actually had nicknames associated with our constant fighting).

After getting out, I found I still had the desire to be aggressive and fight, but the civilian world is alot different than the military one. Things I did in the military would land me in jail or prison in the civilian world.
So, I decided to start taking martial arts to satisfy my desire to be aggressive and fight. I've been doing it ever sense, and the desire to fight has actually subsided, because now I have a resource where I can direct it.

The phrase "Sending your kids to war" is a term rich polititions use to describe the draft process. The phrase makes it sound like they are sending their kids to war, but in reality they are sending your kids to war. :)
They may or may not be kids, but if I had a son who was 18, I would still consider him to be my "kid".

The draft is a trick to get you to voulenteer, they have you raise your right hand and walk across a line on the floor, once you cross the line, you just voulenteered. The constitution prevents being forced into the military.

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Originally Posted by Valleysboy1978

Definitely not. Those idiots kill their own people, men, women and children. Men like that should be left to rot in the desert :mad:

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Thanks for confirming my thoughts.

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Originally Posted by mendhak

Do you, then, have respect for the Iraqi insurgents or young jihad-soldiers?

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Getting to the theoretical aspects, don't you think the so-called insurgents are doing a better job than the occupying US forces?

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Originally Posted by Valleysboy1978

Definitely not. Those idiots kill their own people, men, women and children. Men like that should be left to rot in the desert :mad:

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And what about the men who create such situations for them??

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They were killing their own people in Iraq long before the allies went in and is often the case elsewhere too :eek:

They were not killing their own people in Iraq ,before the allies went in. Saddam was killing his own people. Theres a big bloody diffrenz.

insurgents or soldiers.

Saddam was doing the mass murdering some of his soldiers were. He is responsible but just because they were following orders doesnt mean they have clean hands. Its only a small minority though

Insurgents are still killing civilians now. There goal is to cause fear through murder. :sick:

maybe I should start reading before answering :thumb:

I didn't answer for the following reasons:

(i) The age of adulthood is undetermined
(ii) The complex state of mind of someone who
(iiia) Wants to join the military to kill
(iib) Wants to join the miltary to protect a country
(iic) Wants to join the military for financial reaons
(iid) Wants to jon the military for ego (as in id,ego,superego) reasons


... remain ill-defined

Furthermore: What is a legal adult?

This also presupposes that people do send their children to become military personnel. Where is the evidence?

I loaded poll is very much worse than no poll at all.

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Originally Posted by Jacob Roman

I know that About A Girl and I have our political differences, but she is still convinced that people actually sent their kids to war.

Before I go on, I would like to state that these are facts I'm gonna point out, not opinions. Plus it's common sense to recognize these as facts anyways. First of all, these soldiers are not kids. They are legal adults. As in 18 or over. Secondly, they have volunteered to join the military of their own free will. They knew what they were getting into. And they did it because they are proud to serve and fight for our country. God bless our brave men and women in the military who would die to protect the United States of America.

So all you Michael Moore fans need to open your eyes and realize that in that scene on Farehnheit 911 where Michael Moore is asking all the Senators if they would send their kids to war is pointless cause of the facts I just stated above.

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Now to the detail:

(i) What is freewill?
(ii) What is a child?
(iii) What does God have to do with it?
(iv) Who, apart from Americans, care about America? They are, after all, a collection of diverse people - the same as any other country!
(v) How do you define volunteer?
(vii) How do you defined coercment (sp?) ?
(viii) How do you define knowledge?
(iix) How do you define Wisdom?

Did you realise that you are actually presupposing these questions?

[PS Michael Moore didn't, either - so you're in good company]

I was 17 when I Joined the US ARMY (91). My Parents signed the emancapation(SP?) letter and I was sworn in. Did My parents send me to war or did I volunteer? I wasn't old enough to vote drink a beer or buy a pack of smokes. You bet your sweet fooking arse I VOLUNTEERED! The army does a pretty good job eliminating punk arses who would refuse to fight and are there to suck the system. Occasionally a few dipsheits slip through the cracks and we end up with a couple soldiers on the Canadian side of the border when It's time to hold up their end of the bargain. It's those fookers that make the news so people think it's a wide spread problem. It's not.

I'm still waiting for the Iraqi people as a whole to stand up and take action against these insurgents.
These insurgents are killing innocent people, not just soldiers.
Personally, I would be pissed, the insurgents are just standing in the way of progress, whatever that progress may be.
Their attacks have destroyed power systems, water systems, etc...Causing power outages, shortages of fresh drinking water, etc...
Targeting Iraqi police stations, where men are working so they can provide for their families.

In my opinion, it's the insurgents that are making life hard on the Iraqis.

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Originally Posted by honeybee

Getting to the theoretical aspects, don't you think the so-called insurgents are doing a better job than the occupying US forces?

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I think you've just found your missing parts. You are now officially a complete idiot.

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Originally Posted by Memnoch1207

I'm still waiting for the Iraqi people as a whole to stand up and take action against these insurgents.
These insurgents are killing innocent people, not just soldiers.
Personally, I would be pissed, the insurgents are just standing in the way of progress, whatever that progress may be.
Their attacks have destroyed power systems, water systems, etc...Causing power outages, shortages of fresh drinking water, etc...
Targeting Iraqi police stations, where men are working so they can provide for their families.

In my opinion, it's the insurgents that are making life hard on the Iraqis.

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Absolutly. Unfortunatly no one there seems to understand that. You can lead a camel to water but you can't sit on one without getting a wedgie! erm...Mabe that was supposed to be you cant pick it's nose but you can pick your wedgie. nope that definatly was not it. It definatly is You can pick you friends and you can pick you camel but you cant pick your wedgie because Saddam cut your hands off. Sheit, I give up. :confused:

MB, once again you find the third side to the coin :wave:

I voted for volunteer, but I don't feel very strongly about it. Basically, I don't know any 18 year olds who are capable of making an informed decision at that point. I went to college. There really wasn't a decision to be made. People can say that I could have done other things, but quite frankly, I was unaware that there was a decision. I went to grade school, high school, college. Just as the sun rose in the east, that' how life was.

Looking back, I realize that I did have other options (and I would have taken one of them, too, because I ended up in debt for the next decade and a half), but that is nothing but hindsight. At the time, any other path was a form of failure, a solution I could not consciously choose. Most kids who go into the military probably have no more choice than I had.

Some people at 18 can easily choose what they want to do. I knew some who joined at 16 :)

Its all a matter of the individual as to wether they can decide what they want to do not age :D

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Originally Posted by yrwyddfa

(iv) Who, apart from Americans, care about America? They are, after all, a collection of diverse people - the same as any other country!

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Correct me if I'm wrong but Britain has always stood by it's ally, America. That's what friends do.
:rolleyes:

A good poodle always does what his master wants . . .

True, true.
It's a good thing really that I consider myself as Welsh, not British. Therefore I can deny any part in it :lol:

Dream on :lol:

Eh... I think option two is winning...

Hmmm, I think this poll is pretty conclusive

About a Girl has just officially been dubbed Loser!!!

I had to break the unity. :D

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Originally Posted by Valleysboy1978

Correct me if I'm wrong but Britain has always stood by it's ally, America. That's what friends do.
:rolleyes:

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Well, isn't it also true that a real friend will tell you when you are wrong, instead of just praising you all the time? ;)

Friend? Looks more like partners in crime :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by honeybee

Well, isn't it also true that a real friend will tell you when you are wrong, instead of just praising you all the time? ;)

Friend? Looks more like partners in crime :rolleyes:

.

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True, true. The problem is that if Blair admitted that he thought it was wrong he'd be admitting to being a liar....and I've yet to see a politician admit to that. :rolleyes:
Politics! :mad: